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Psyruby

How do you feel about the changes to Criticals?

Critcals  

71 members have voted

  1. 1. Do you like the overall change to skill and luck?

    • Yes.
      24
    • No.
      15
    • Maybe, I'd have to play to know.
      32
  2. 2. Do you like the changes to Killing weapons?

    • Yes.
      39
    • No.
      7
    • Maybe, I'd have to play to know.
      25
  3. 3. Do you like how this game handled criticals?

    • Yes.
      27
    • No.
      9
    • Maybe, I'd have to play to know.
      35


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Alright so there have been quite a few changes to how critical work in this game. I'll just list them out and then talk a little about how this affects gameplay.

1) Luck and HP no longer are equal for all classes. This makes it more likely to critical most classes, and even outright OHKO them for not having enough HP.

2) HP growths are much lower this game. Once again, criticals now are much more likely to OHKO in story mode due to this change.

3) Skill now affects critical chance by (Skill-4)/2 = critical stat bonus. This is a slight tweak from awakening, but even tho it seems like a nerf, the next difference changes things even further.

4) 1 Luck = .5 Critical Evade now. Technically... this makes luck both worse and more valuable. It's worse cause it doesn't do as much, but it's more valuable cause now if you don't have high enough luck(ie 4 less than the target's skill), then any weapon has the chance to critical unless you start pairing up.

5) Killing Weapons now do 4x critical damage.

6) While class skills have less options to get your critical up, some personal skills are very strong in the critical department.

7) S rank Classes all get bonuses to criticals except for Maids/Butlers. This makes all these classes very critical based or even anti crit in a couple cases.

A couple interesting notes,

A) Killing Weapons are extremely strong in story, they make it very likely to have 20%+ critical chance, 4x crits, and only have 5 less hit and 10 less avoid than normal iron weapons. This nearly makes them statistically better than iron, steel, silver, brave, and sometimes warrior weapons in story mode for most cases.

B) Certain Builds in PvP are certainly strong, I'm not going to say they are overbearing as I can't comment on that yet, but Arthur is standing around with a 90% chance to crit most classes on player phase when built right.

C) This can be pretty scary to some people who hate enemies getting criticals and they may stray away from low luck characters.

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5) Killing Weapons now do 4x critical damage.

okay this part is kind of dumb. having some criticals be more critical than others isn't a good call; if they really wanted this to be a thing, they probably should've made it a thing separate from standard criticals or something (like instead of being a proper critical, it's a 4x damaging trigger skill the weapon has), or just made all criticals do 4x damage. wouldn't be the first time that intsys has changed what crits do

with respect to everything else, sure, why the hell not. nerfing hp growths seems a bit silly, but i'm down with non-universal hp and luck caps coming back

Edited by bookofholsety

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I like the changes to the Killer weapons, doing 4x damage instead 3x. That does make it much more scarier if the enemy wields a killer weapon, but I often try to avoid those by attacking with range. call me stupid but I think it's a nice change!

And I'm kinda indifferent to the change on skill and luck, but I will say that Takumi just... always criticals for me. I don't know if that's good or bad, because sometimes I'm trying to weaken the strong enemies so my weaker units can get experience, but Takumi just flat out kills them lol.

It's fun to combine certain skills and classes to try to get the highest critical chance you can, though. Sometimes my Charlotte naturally has a critical of like 50%, and that's without a killer weapon, without Ogre Strike. But with a killer weapon (a Great Club for highest critical chance), WITH Ogre Strike... damn.

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I like that Killer Weapons do 4X damage mostly because it's a Crit based weapon and it makes sense that it should probably do more damage than your standard Crit.

The rest I'm indifferent towards until I've played the game.

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I haven't played Fates, but... that doesn't sound like my cup of tea. HP and Luck caps I don't mind, but the changes to the crit formula... not things I'm down with. I feel like FE12 had the right idea (barring 0 Luck enemies), but I also think critical hits should be lowered to double damage instead of triple; especially if you're going to increase the frequency of them.

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Why did Skill and Luck did need to be nerfed? They were already the worst stats to invest in. That is the most mind-boggling part of this set of changes.

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Why did Skill and Luck did need to be nerfed? They were already the worst stats to invest in. That is the most mind-boggling part of this set of changes.

Well... skill technically was buffed by comparison. Luck was nerfed so god damn hard that criticals are relevant with 0 critical weapons in some cases. I can understand from a story perspective why it was done. Now luck and skill are actually fighting each other to get or deny a critical rate for story mode. However for PvP, this disproportionally favors critical skills and weapons over both skill and luck stats.

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Ooh. That's some nice infos! Thank you Psyruby!

As for my opinion about it, I haven't play the game so I can't say if I like it or not.

But I like the changes about Skill and Luck.

As for the 4x damage. You usually OHKO someone with a basic 3x so 4x... that sounds scary.

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I don't know about how the critical hit formula plays out but Takumi (aka Critkumi) is pretty ridiculous.

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granted, I have relatively little FE experience (FE:A, PoR, RD), but at least compared to Awakening, the Luc nerf makes some sense. near the end of the game (rather, near cap), crits become absolutely worthless since Luc is more than twice that of Skl in effect while have (about) the same cap. so even with killer weapons, the crit rates are negligible if not 0. ofc, if Luc is to be nerfed, Skl had to be nerfed as well. this way, in general, the average unit will never have positive crit against them when dealing with non-Killer weapons (especially with Support bonuses providing Dodge also). this also makes "low Luc" units actually matter a bit more (not in a good way but, besides extremely low Luc units, low Luc was hardly a flaw). I've never cared for my Luc stat at all in any of the 3 games because there was always almost always lots of surplus, even the low Luc chars. so at least now, I might look at a char, see low Luc, and contemplate using them compared to before, see low Luc, I don't care (though personally I probably still wouldn't care since 1) Support bonuses help and 2) they shouldn't be near crit enemies anyways)

I will say though that, with all the +Crit options, these Critrates get scary (90%+ ._.) plus 4x. yeesh. not completely sure how I feel about the crit modifiers, though I'm fine with Killer having higher crit multiplier. how RNG-reliant do we want our FE games is the main question

EDIT: also, this does favor the higher leveled side in-story. lower difficulties, it almost certainly favors your own units, where all your units might have some crit% with normal weapons, while in harder difficulties, your weaker units are even more of a liability. I don't know how underleveled the majority of your units might be in Lunatic in Fates compared to enemies though so I can't say how much the second case applies

Edited by GoXDS

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I haven't played, so take my opinion as grain of "Nothing".

But instead of typing something really long, I'll just say- The Strategy is now more Trivial and not as mind boggling.

Also, does this force you to do Supports?

Skl still has a deficit to catch up to even go non-negative (nevermind relevant). 4 Skl is needed to break even and 2 more Skl per 1% Crit with non-Killer.

against non-Killer weapons, Supports aren't needed. 1) Skl needs catching up to do as mentioned and 2) base Support gives 5 Dodge, so you'll need another 10 Skl to break even on average. also, not all chars give additional Dodge from Support (Fates made varied support bonuses instead of a standard bonus)

as for Killer weapons, it's rare on enemies. and for player, it's still not a good thing to rely on since critting is still less likely than not critting. so imo it doesn't trivialize strategy

Edited by GoXDS

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I haven't played, so take my opinion as grain of "Nothing".

But instead of typing something really long, I'll just say- The Strategy is now more Trivial and not as mind boggling.

Also, does this force you to do Supports?

It definitely entices supports, as getting the bonus is one of the only ways to increase your crit evade. I'd also say it only trivializes the story mode by having Nohr's route have a clear cut answer. Killing weapons are the best standard weapons. End of story. That's it. Like ignoring you equipping killing weapons, it is now very interesting that high skill have a bonus finally and low luck characters have a real penalty.

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So is having a +SKL Kamui viable at all, given these changes? Turns them into Critmui? A bonus +25% growth in it is pretty significant after all.

BTW I'm aware its generally trash-tier for PvP but I have no interest in that anyway.

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So is having a +SKL Kamui viable at all, given these changes? Turns them into Critmui? A bonus +25% growth in it is pretty significant after all.

BTW I'm aware its generally trash-tier for PvP but I have no interest in that anyway.

+Spd would be way more consistent (assuming the asset was the difference between doubling and not ofc)

at 20/0, +Skl on average reaches 24.25 (but capped at 23) Skl. +Spd reaches 17.45.

+Skl against ~12 Luc (quick glance at your other Units at 20/0, rough estimate and I'll extrapolate that to enemy) gets you 14% with midgame Yato while +Spd is 11%

hardly a difference. not worth it

compared to +Spd, +Skl reaches 15.5 Spd while +Spd reaches 20.35. that's a huge difference in who Kamui can double

Edited by GoXDS

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Personally, I've always been a fan of Crits and Crit builds, and I think enemies with high Crit rates can be good because they make you think more (poor Ch.9 Gregor). I've never played the game, but it seems like it will be pretty good to have Crits be an actual thing outside of Ch.4!Lonky, Henry, and 3rd gen Supermorgans again.

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Personally, I've always been a fan of Crits and Crit builds, and I think enemies with high Crit rates can be good because they make you think more (poor Ch.9 Gregor). I've never played the game, but it seems like it will be pretty good to have Crits be an actual thing outside of Ch.4!Lonky, Henry, and 3rd gen Supermorgans again.

yea, I was sad that Crit builds in end-game Awakening was worthless, especially with Limit Breaker. ~-27 Crit to work with T_T

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I like the changes.It definitely helps your units in cases and also it encourages more strategy which is always nice.

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It definitely entices supports, as getting the bonus is one of the only ways to increase your crit evade. I'd also say it only trivializes the story mode by having Nohr's route have a clear cut answer. Killing weapons are the best standard weapons. End of story. That's it. Like ignoring you equipping killing weapons, it is now very interesting that high skill have a bonus finally and low luck characters have a real penalty.

I'd disagree on two points here, Killing Weapons aren't standard weapons and the extra damage is a gamble on a weapon as weak as an Iron(the latter of which can be easily forged 2-4 might above Killers which you only get a couple of across the campaign ). For the most part in the campaign Guaranteed higher might can be more effective than +25% crit chance with 4x crit damage.

They do shine in situations where a more powerful weapon won't make the difference in how quickly you kill the enemy but a crit would. But until the end of the game where stats are much higher influence combat more than weapon might there's a lot of times that higher weapon might reliably makes a difference.

Edited by arvilino

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It definitely entices supports, as getting the bonus is one of the only ways to increase your crit evade. I'd also say it only trivializes the story mode by having Nohr's route have a clear cut answer. Killing weapons are the best standard weapons. End of story. That's it. Like ignoring you equipping killing weapons, it is now very interesting that high skill have a bonus finally and low luck characters have a real penalty.

Yeah, I'd have to disagree, for all the reasons arvilino pointed out.

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I'd disagree on two points here, Killing Weapons aren't standard weapons and the extra damage is a gamble on a weapon as weak as an Iron(the latter of which can be easily forged 2-4 might above Killers which you only get a couple of across the campaign ). For the most part in the campaign Guaranteed higher might can be more effective than +25% crit chance with 4x crit damage.

They do shine in situations where a more powerful weapon won't make the difference in how quickly you kill the enemy but a crit would.

Guaranteed higher Mt matters when you /need/ something to die in a certain crowd, but that's a one-off situation. However, statistically, having an attack with a 20%+ chance to do 4x damage with iron sword power is more powerful than Steel, Silver, and Brave Weapons when fighting a crowd of enemies. Don't get me wrong, I'm saying you'd probably still keep around Silver weapons(for emergency situations), but Killing Weapons are definitely the best all around weapons to use by statistical analysis.

EDIT: Also, just to be clear, I'm sort of anti-forging in story, I don't think anyone else should be, but it sort of ruins the weapon balance in this game imo.

EX:
Killing edge has a 20% chance to critical.
An iron sword does 5 damage.

Killing Edge's average Damage = 8.
Steel Sword's average Damage = 8.
Silver Sword's average Damage =(.... well it gets less powerful as you go but let's say for 2 attacks so) 10.
Brave Sword's average Damage =(same deal except with the fact that it only strikes once on enemy turns) 7.5.

However if the iron sword does 8 damage.
Killing Edge's average Damage = 12.8.
Steel Sword's average Damage = 11.
Silver Sword's average Damage = 13.
Brave Sword's average Damage = 12.

and for the "best case scenario"
Killing Edge has a 25% chance to critical.
Iron sword does 10 damage.

Killing Edge average Damage = 17.5.
Steel Sword's average Damage = 13.
Silver Sword's average Damage = 15.
Brave Sword's Average Damage = 15.

EDIT2: Also, some people may not like unreliable damage for killing weapons, but 20% chance to outright kill an enemy vs. doing less than 50% HP in damage with Steel weapons is preferable. It's when the steel weapons start doing 50% or more damage that you should start weighing your options.

Edited by Psyruby

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Actually, let me put up some relevant calculations. Cause I really want to know what's the best time for Killing Edge, Forged Iron Swords, and Forged Steel Swords.


So let's see, the relevant situations are Steel Swords vs. Killing Edges when you only strike once. Iron Swords vs. Killing Edges when you can double.

The relevant damage markers for forged Steel Swords vs. Killing Edges are when you can OHKO with Killing Edge's crits, do 50%+ with Steel Swords, and do 50%+ with Killing Edges. The relevant damage markers for doubling with Forged Iron Swords vs. Killing Edges are when you can OHKO with Killing Edges(which equals when two Killing Edge Strikes equal 50%), when you can ORKO(one normal hit and one critical) with Killing Edges, when you can do 50% with doubling forged Iron Swords, and when you can do 100% with doubling forged Iron Swords.

Relevant HPs are 25, 35, 45, and let's say 55.

So... cracks knuckles

25 HP Enemy
Forged Steel vs. Killing Edge

50% with +2 Steel Sword = 6 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.

OHKO with Critical Killing Edge = 7 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.
50% with Killing Edge = 13 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.

35 HP Enemy
Forged Steel vs. Killing Edge

50% with +2 Steel Sword = 11 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.

OHKO with Critical Killing Edge = 9 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.
50% with Killing Edge = 18 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.

45 HP Enemy
Forged Steel vs. Killing Edge

50% with +2 Steel Sword = 16 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.

OHKO with Critical Killing Edge = 12 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.
50% with Killing Edge = 23 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.

55 HP Enemy
Forged Steel vs. Killing Edge

50% with +2 Steel Sword = 21 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.

OHKO with Critical Killing Edge = 14 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.
50% with Killing Edge = 28 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.

25 HP Enemy(Doubling)
Forged Iron vs. Killing Edge

50% with Forged Iron Sword = 3 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.
ORKO with Critical Killing Edge = 5 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.

OHKO with Critical Killing Edge = 7 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.
100% with Forged Iron Sword = 9 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.

35 HP Enemy(Doubling)
Forged Iron vs. Killing Edge

50% with Forged Iron Sword = 5 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.
ORKO with Critical Killing Edge = 7 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.

OHKO with Critical Killing Edge = 9 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.

100% with Forged Iron Sword = 14 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.

45 HP Enemy(Doubling)
Forged Iron vs. Killing Edge

50% with Forged Iron Sword = 8 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.
ORKO with Critical Killing Edge = 9 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.

OHKO with Critical Killing Edge = 12 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.

100% with Forged Iron Sword = 19 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.

55 HP Enemy(Doubling)
Forged Iron vs. Killing Edge

50% with Forged Iron Sword = 10 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.
ORKO with Critical Killing Edge = 11 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.

OHKO with Critical Killing Edge = 14 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.

100% with Forged Iron Sword = 24 Displayed Damage for Killing Edge.

What does all this mean.... well

Forged Steel weapons are strictly better early game. about mid game and onward into late game, Killing weapons(and weapons by extension) are better for medium power units than Forged Steel weapons. (Although the fact that you are much more likely to double with Killing weapons might mean they just do strictly more damage if your unit is fast enough).

Early game, Forged Iron weapons are good for powerful units that can double(which would be kinda rare), mid game, Killing weapons are better for mid power level units, and end game they are better in the majority of cases than Forged Iron weapons.

While this doesn't account for higher forging, I'd say that in Nohr, you might want to conserve your money, so making enough money to get +3 Iron(or steel) weapons for everyone is way too much money.

EDIT: BTW, the idea of ORKO'ing a unit with one critical and one normal hit isn't that strange if you can get critical rate up to 30%, as you have a 51% chance to ORKO and a 49% chance to do 2 weak hits.

Edited by Psyruby

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First question. No. Hate it that luck negates criticals only by half now.

Second question. Yes.

Third Question. Yes.

The RNG isn't fucked up like in Thracia and Binding Blade.

Edited by Princess_Florina

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Criticals are generally easier to land, which can be problematic to the player. HP isn't high to start with, and I've seen cases where powerful bosses have non-zero crits. That critical rate, of course, is the chance that I have to reset after hours of nervously trespassing the level. So no.

As for the killer x4 effect, consider something like Belka's Axe, a killer weapon with better raw might than a Steel Axe. My Belka can use that to one-hit kill without considering the "killer" part. The killer property is just overkill.

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As for the killer x4 effect, consider something like Belka's Axe, a killer weapon with better raw might than a Steel Axe. My Belka can use that to one-hit kill without considering the "killer" part. The killer property is just overkill.

You have a point there, but Belka's Axe also has some pretty serious downsides.

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