Worst Units and Classes

[riolumaster]

So this topic is the parallel of the "Best Units and Classes" topic. So far I've heard that Odin, Subaki, and Hinata aren't very good in their base classes. Also, the Pegasus Warrior class is said to be bad, and that characters such as Hinoka do much better as Holy Lancers.

[Dark Paladin X]

I have to agree that Hinata and Subaki are underwhelming units. Who in the right mind make their growth rates and stats resemble tanks while putting them into glass cannon units. Subaki's "Perfectionist" skill would have been more useful if he was given better Speed growths.

[gayserbeam]

Odin's meh bases and balanced stats are the death of him. His SPD and MAG lag well behind Nyx, he'll be slow and weak as a Samurai, and you get so many better units for simple chip damage around the same time you get him.

His stats are tailored for the Dark Knight class as a sort of slow, bulky, offensively balanced unit; but good luck building any significant HP or DEF in either of his natural class sets. It's just underwhelming compared to Leo or Camilla who have superior everything and a very similar role.

Now his personal skill is fantastic and it means he can have excellent crit as a Sorcerer or Trueblade. But the fact that there are so many Berserkers and Ogre Strike users out there means that advantage isn't so profound, and in Nohr especially unless you are using the DLC he's just generally an impractical and outclassed choice.

Compare his growths to the similarly balanced Sakura and watch how much she outclasses him.

Tsukuyomi is the rare Hoshidan mage, has good growths and has two excellent class sets. Yet he joins so underleveled in Hoshido (which nobody else really does) that it's honestly a waste of your efforts to use him. Arrogance helps him chip, but you get two Bowmen and three Ninjas who are all better for that.

Edited September 22, 2015 by gayserbeam

[SerenadeofWisdom]

Luna and Lazward are pretty underwhelming.

[Ryo]

The masochist in me want to give Hinata and Tsubaki a chance. Wish me luck *_*

[Dark Paladin X]

Luna and Lazward are pretty underwhelming.

Well, the biggest irony is that they are the closest characters you can get for having the best sword users in the Nohr route and two of the heaviest hitters in the Nohr route.

[Carter]

Hinata and Subaki just do not work for me. I constantly get terrible levels with them. I use Subaki regardless, as he is my only Pegasus Warrior (I do not use Hinoka). I'd make Luna a Pegasus Warrior, to resemble what I did with Severa in Awakening, but it doesn't feel right this time around.

And while I'm at it, Luna is quite underwhelming. She constantly gets bad levels too, but I push to use her because she's my favorite.

[Leif]

Odin's low bases and balanced stats are the death of him. His SPD and MAG lag well behind Nyx, he'll be slow and weak as a Samurai, and you get so many better units for simple chip damage around the same time you get him.

His stats are tailored for the Dark Knight class as a sort of slow, bulky, offensively balanced unit; but good luck building any significant HP or DEF in either of his natural class sets. It's just underwhelming compared to Leo or Camilla who have superior everything and a very similar role.

Now his personal skill is fantastic and it means he can have excellent crit as a Sorcerer or Trueblade. But the fact that there are so many Berserkers and Ogre Strike users out there means that advantage isn't so profound, and in Nohr especially unless you are using the DLC he's just generally an impractical and outclassed choice.

Compare his growths to the similarly balanced Sakura and watch how much she outclasses him.

UGHHH...

...why must IS neuter the only canon male dark mage you get in the game...

This is disappointing since I wanted to use him in my Nohr play through...

[CocoaGalaxy]

Odin

Magic Users aside from the siblings, children (because lol children) or (in my opinion) Tsukuyomi are kind of sucky in this game, due to a number of factors

The game itself is biased against the magic users, and even the better magic users aren't overwhelmingly powerful..though they certainly can be

+Magic Kamui is "probably the best magic user", by far, but otherwise it's kind of a toss up

For example, on Nohr side, setting aside Strategists (because in my opinion their primary job is to heal, not attack or be in danger of attacked) and the siblings, we only really have Odin and Nyx.

Compared to Nyx, Odin is "balanced", but when you compare to everyone else, things kind of start to fall apart.

(In all honesty, I don't really have much recollection of previous games, though I do recall that magic was basically busted in FE13)

Odin's main "plus" is that he can use Nosferatu, and that he actually has the defense to put it to use. Nyx's speed is wasted as Nosferatu can't double and she probably can't heal enough to offset the damage taken.

Of course, Odin is overly balanced, in a sense..and I think it might also be because he has a fairly high Luck (and strength, yeah) growth which kind of steals his growths somewhat... (It's 60% if I recall correctly..)

Subaki (and Hinata)

Subaki's main problem is that his speed is really bad, and we all know that speed is probably the most important stat in the game..somewhat, but you definitely do not want to have speed problems.

His only saving grace is that Swallow strike allows him to double on player phase, and he's a flyer..somewhat, although that's also a problem

(Using Rallies to boost speed is really..still kind of unpalatable)

Subaki, while he has better defense than most other units, isn't going to be able to wall, and his strength isn't that good either, which leaves him with no real strengths to play him to

Same for Hinata, roughly speaking. They also don't have (much) resistance, so that's another point against them, though it might not be that important overall

Setsuna

In my opinion, Setsuna is also underpowered. It's not necessarily because Takumi is "too good" or anything, but I find Setsuna to be a bit underwhelming....though it could just be me. My main qualm with Setsuna is that even with Prescient Victory and her high speed, she's still going to have trouble damaging high defense enemies...though it could be because I compare her to Takumi, and hence expect her to 2RKO Generals....

Luna

Luna's main problem is her relative lack of strength means that she isn't going to be pulling off many ORKOs, and as such she's going to be left vulnerable of sorts in the enemy phase. Something like that

Lazward is like a somewhat opposite of Luna, but even then...what can I say...

They do have fairly balanced stats, which does somewhat act against them at times

Classes

All the magic classes suck in this game. More or less.

Pegasus and Falco (and Golden Kite as well) have pretty bad growth spreads as well.

Several other classes as well, if you ask me...

Of course, it might depend on what you look for in a class.

Base stat wise, things aren't that bad.

There aren't really many "bad classes" per say, except for, well, Golden Kite somewhat. Falco has staff utility which gives it a fair saving grace, having Rally Speed is an "acceptable" boost as well...somewhat.

Skills is slightly debatable, because you can just buy whatever you want and render the point moot.

I'll get some numbers later, but you never know, numbers aren't everything....and sometimes it depends on how you interpret the numbers.

Edited September 22, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[Thor Odinson]

While we're here on the topic of Tsubaki, would changing him to Samurai at least salvage him a little? I understand he'll never be great or even good, but I do like the guy as a character and he might be a bit more usable with Flowing Strike to stack with his personal and Samurai's higher class speed.

IDK though I don't have experience in this matters

also technically Leon comes from dark mage he's just promoted

Edited September 22, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[Ryo]

So it seems there's a general consensus that Hinoka is better than Tsubaki (or at least Tsubaki really sucks in his role). But if we don't reclass Hinoka and she stays in her Peg line (which is what I'm planning to do), is she much better compared to Tsubaki?

[-Cynthia-]

So it seems there's a general consensus that Hinoka is better than Tsubaki (or at least Tsubaki really sucks in his role). But if we don't reclass Hinoka and she stays in her Peg line (which is what I'm planning to do), is she much better compared to Tsubaki?

She's significantly faster(+6 base Spd and 25% growth), which means she can double on EP and also use stuff like Steel more easily for more Mt. Swallow Strike does make Subaki better than he ordinarily would be I suppose.

Other than those previously mentioned, some units that look underwhelming:

Rinkah- HP issues, Str issues, E clubs...she's probably better off as a Guard Stance partner than a main combatant

Orochi- Too slow to double even with help, no durability

Pieri- Bases don't seem very good for her join time- people were stating Lazward was mediocre and she has -3 HP, -2 Str, -7 Skl, -5 Lck, +3 Res in comparison

Benoit- 6 base Spd at this point in the game, Defensive Formation is kinda far away. Questionable whether you really need a tank at this point in the game that gets doubled considering Xander is coming up and you probably have Effie/Silas or whatever

Charlotte- Another case of questionable bases related to jointime. She has similar stats to Lazward but joins a chapter later (-6 Skl, -5 Lck, -2 Def, -5 Res)

Mozume- Bad bases and arguably does not turn out better than many other units anyway due to durability issues

Edited September 22, 2015 by -Cynthia-

[CocoaGalaxy]

While we're here on the topic of Tsubaki, would changing him to Samurai at least salvage him a little? I understand he'll never be great or even good, but I do like the guy as a character and he might be a bit more usable with Flowing Strike to stack with his personal and Samurai's higher class speed.

IDK though I don't have experience in this matters

also technically Leon comes from dark mage he's just promoted

Believe me, they are so slow, they're like..the 3rd slowest units in the game (Slowest is benoit, but he actually has defense and defensive formation. 2nd slowest is Orochi..which I forgot to mention, but she's probably one of the less good units in the game, because, well...she's 2nd slowest.)

Around there or so...

Also Flowing Strike, which I like it a lot, is a bit ..difficult to use. Due to the math of the situation, it's best used on high avoid units like Ryoma, because turning a 30% into a 0% is "a fairly big deal", while turning a 100% into a 70%...not so much. Of course...it's hard to tell, so Flowing Strike is around the middle of the strike skills. At least it's (almost always) helpful

Subaki's "only saving grace" is his immediate access to Swallow strike really. After that...he really has not much to stand on

Class Changing Leo to a Sorcerer is something I've thought of, but I'm not exactly sure of.

It boosts his magic growth, but his tankiness drops a bit, and it won't salvage his low speed.

Leo doesn't really miss the access to swords, and sorcerer does give him some bonuses which I can't recall right now...but the lack of tankiness is a bit bothersome

So it seems there's a general consensus that Hinoka is better than Tsubaki (or at least Tsubaki really sucks in his role). But if we don't reclass Hinoka and she stays in her Peg line (which is what I'm planning to do), is she much better compared to Tsubaki?

Hinoka is largely better than Subaki really. I'll get the numbers in a few minutes.

In general..I'm not really sure what to say, but I think they still did a fairly good job with most or so of the characters

Orochi has her speed issues, which makes Tsukuyomi pretty much superior simply because he doesn't get doubled. Orochi "might" survive some, but Tsukuyomi is simply going to have better offense because he can double really.

Some say I'm biased against Rinkah, though I will admit that the developers gave her pretty atrocious bases, aside from her Speed and Defense I guess. It helps that Oni Savage is a fairly powerful class (though not the skills) and Shura has access to the "broken" Ogre Strike.

Alas, if she had more magic she might have been able to use the Bolt Axe a little bit more effectively, or magic as a Shura.

Pieri is basically a faster silas who trades some tankiness and strength for the ability to double. It's subjective really.

She makes a pretty good unit in my opinion

Benoit does have a huge problem, and that's getting his 10 Levels before he gets Defensive Formation. His starting Defense helps but he really, really needs that skill. Once he has it..it's arguable that Effie is still superior.

Charlotte

There's nothing really wrong with Charlotte, she's more like a classic fighter, but it seems the main problems are her low defense (can anyone actually fault her though?) and more importantly, her "underlevelledness" when she joins

I do not consider Mozume "a bad unit", but I will say that it's a fair bit more difficult to get her on par in Nohr.

(Seriously, she has 30+ in more or less all her important stats at 20/20, which is a lot more than other characters can say)

Edited September 22, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[Dark Paladin X]

She's significantly faster(+6 base Spd and 25% growth), which means she can double on EP and also use stuff like Steel more easily for more Mt. Swallow Strike does make Subaki better than he ordinarily would be I suppose.

Other than those previously mentioned, some units that look underwhelming:

Rinkah- HP issues, Str issues, E clubs...she's probably better off as a Guard Stance partner than a main combatant

Orochi- Too slow to double even with help, no durability

Pieri- Bases don't seem very good for her join time- people were stating Lazward was mediocre and she has -3 HP, -2 Str, -7 Skl, -5 Lck, +3 Res in comparison

Benoit- 6 base Spd at this point in the game, Defensive Formation is kinda far away. Questionable whether you really need a tank at this point in the game that gets doubled considering Xander is coming up and you probably have Effie/Silas or whatever

Charlotte- Another case of questionable bases related to jointime. She has similar stats to Lazward but joins a chapter later (-6 Skl, -5 Lck, -2 Def, -5 Res)

Mozume- Bad bases and arguably does not turn out better than many other units anyway due to durability issues

Keep in note that some of those who suggest are very subjective (especially the Mozume part since I personally find her to be much more useful Bow user than even Zero in the Nohr route, providing if you want to use the Parallel Seal on her and make her as an Archer. And if you ask me, Nohr route is infamous for large amount of flyer units and the lack of bow users). However, I personally find the Golden-Kite Warrior to be very underwhelming (mainly because the skills you get from a Golden-Kite Warrior doesn't have much synergy since Sun God is mostly a support skill while the Golden-Kite Warrior isn't even a support unit when compared to even Maids and Falcon Warriors.

[Thor Odinson]

So what would be recommended to salvage Tsubaki, then? Rinka I have my plans, since HP/Str is easier to patch, with, uh, extreme favoritism than speed, but I would still eventually like to somehow use the guy.

[CocoaGalaxy]

So what would be recommended to salvage Tsubaki, then? Rinka I have my plans, since HP/Str is easier to patch, with, uh, extreme favoritism than speed, but I would still eventually like to somehow use the guy.

I honestly have no idea for now, but I'd say try Trueblade, he might at least double some things there.

I still haven't gotten a list of enemy stats (not nicely anyway..and difficult does matter somewhat)

20/20 Falco Subaki: 23 Strength, 24 Speed, 27 Defense

20/20 Trueblade Subaki: 24 Strength, 27 Speed, 27 Defense

Ok so I have this one data set for now

Hoshido 27 Normal, Hero/Bow Knight/Berserker=24 Speed

So yeah...

(Note that you are not actually "likely" to hit 20/20 by Hoshido 27..these enemies are 20/15)

Edited September 22, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[Dark Paladin X]

So what would be recommended to salvage Tsubaki, then? Rinka I have my plans, since HP/Str is easier to patch, with, uh, extreme favoritism than speed, but I would still eventually like to somehow use the guy.

Rinkah is more of speedster type character, so either reclass her as a Elite Ninja or Trueblade would be good here.

[Thor Odinson]

Rinkah is more of speedster type character, so either reclass her as a Elite Ninja or Trueblade would be good here.

Wouldn't that kinda lower her Str growth down to sub 40 territory, though? Since her str bases aren't very good either I'm not sure how well it'd hold up. Swordfaire and Kunaifaire only really comes level 15 promoted, after all.

I was just thinking of using male MU to get her berserker access, really.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[Ryo]

Bye Tsubaki :v

It's also sad to see that Golden-kite seems to be underwhelming, because that's one of my most favorite classes. I've always wanted a flying bow unit.

[CocoaGalaxy]

Wouldn't that kinda lower her Str growth down to sub 40 territory, though? Since her str bases aren't very good either I'm not sure how well it'd hold up. Swordfaire and Kunaifaire only really comes level 15 promoted, after all.

I was just thinking of using male MU to get her berserker access, really.

Berserker kind of wastes her defense growths though....but I suppose it might still be possible

20/20 Shura:

33 HP, 26 Strength, 29 Speed, 35 Defense

Lowish strength. Magic is 15, which..isn't really enough, but I don't really know enemy resistance numbers.

20/20 Blacksmith

37 HP 24 Strength, 30 Speed, 32 Defense

Kind of similar to Shura

20/20 Trueblade:

30 HP, 20 Strength, 36 Speed, 23 Defense

Her strength is just way too low as a Trueblade, and her good defense is "gone" as well

20/20 Elite Ninja

27 HP, 17 Strength, 36 Speed, 24 Defense

See Trueblade

20/20 Berserker

41 HP, 30 Strength, 33 Speed, 24 Defense

Is actually not half bad.

Edited September 22, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[-Cynthia-]

I'm mostly talking from an efficiency perspective here- if Mozume requires grinding to be on par with your other units then she's probably not as good unless the investment makes up for the cost (doubtful).

A lot of the units I listed aren't awful or anything, but I doubt Pieri can double at base(enemies probably have more than 8 Spd by Chapter 12), low durability means she gets 2HKOd and her Str is eh which are a lot of issues to try and fix. You can probably turn units like her and Charlotte into contributors with effort, but odds are you already have better units on your team.

[riolumaster]

So can the "bad" units be fixed with extreme favoritism or are some units just beyond repair?

[Thor Odinson]

Berserker kind of wastes her defense growths though....but I suppose it might still be possible

Elite Ninja and Trueblade aren't exactly defensive options either, but I was thinking doing unpromoted in Oni, get Ogre Strike at 5, then go Berserker. By that time she should hopefully have built up enough defense through Oni. Shura drops an additional 10% in HP, unfortunately, and Blacksmith drops 5% in Str, both of which she's already pretty bad at.

and hell, i can still get her back to shura after Zerker 15 after axefaire if the lowered defense proves too much, 10 levels in zerker should not be a huge damper on defense growthwise especially if she gets back to the Shura bases (-20% over 10 levels is just 2 points on average), but she'd come back with HP+5 and AF. 45% is still pretty respectable as far as defense goes, anyway, since it tends to be a lower stat in general.

But really I just wanna nab hp+5 and axefaire so i can just start buying them for her because i don't even care about other units and ryouma is his own god anyway

Edited September 22, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[CocoaGalaxy]

I'm fairly sure a lot of units can't double at base either really, they need time for their speed growths to kick in

So can the "bad" units be fixed with extreme favoritism or are some units just beyond repair?

It depends on which units we're talking about

On non Lunatic (and maybe even then...) you can just save scum for good Levels.

It also depends on the number of units.

Fixing one, maybe two units might be doable, since you can just dump some stat boosters on them (though you only get so many), but ..an entire army of "questionable" units is not going to work, especially on the higher difficulties or what not (Not using tanks on Nohr? Going to get overwhelmed)

On an efficiency run..I think you might end up sacking half or more of the game.

Edited September 22, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[Dark Paladin X]

I'm mostly talking from an efficiency perspective here- if Mozume requires grinding to be on par with your other units then she's probably not as good unless the investment makes up for the cost (doubtful).

A lot of the units I listed aren't awful or anything, but I doubt Pieri can double at base(enemies probably have more than 8 Spd by Chapter 12), low durability means she gets 2HKOd and her Str is eh which are a lot of issues to try and fix. You can probably turn units like her and Charlotte into contributors with effort, but odds are you already have better units on your team.

If you are talking about efficiency, then Mozume is a very efficient unit in Nohr route if you reclass her as an Archer (it's easier to train a early weak game ranged unit than a early weak game melee unit). And besides, the Nohr route is infamous for having a lot of flying units and the lack of good bow users you can use, which is why Mozume is far more useful in the Nohr route than Hoshido route (yes, it's going to be hard to train Mozume in Nohr route, but it's worth the investment).