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Worst Units and Classes


riolumaster
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I'm not entirely sure why everyone is dissing Tsukuyomi, is it because of his bases?

I admit though, he's starting at Level 1 facing Level 7/8 enemies, and on Lunatic it might be a bit tough to squeeze in things for him to hit

(Though he can hit and run the stationary knights with Azura's help, though if they switch to the Javelins it might be a bit much)

"Since none of the units have overly terrible bases, it mostly depends on the growths. However, this means people will diss units like Mozume and Tsukuyomi because of their low bases."

In my opinion, the "Invisible Kingdom underleveled thing" is understandable, but this I don't really agree as much

I suppose not everyone has the same threshold or desire to "train" units

I personally feel it's not nearly as bad as say.....Meg, Fiona, Lyre from FE10 or so

(Maybe it's just me)

It might also have something to do with the fact that it wasn't as bad in Awakening, comparatively and/or relatively speaking at least

Numbers:

The Knights in question (19 ATK on Lunatic) probably 1 Shot Tsukuyomi (16 HP 4 DEF) due to triangle bonuses. I suppose you could try to catch them on the lance or something, I really don't know

The enemy numbers don't look "overly bad", but yeah....Tsukuyomi is going to be in a bit of a pain.

On the bright side, at least he'll level up very fast since he's 6-7 levels lower.

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Yeah Hinata's base speed can go on for quite awhile in Hoshido. He only needs a speed tonic to double every unpromoted enemy up to chapter 17(Using Steel doesn't let him double the fighters though) and to not get doubled by the promoted enemies(I think the Hero may double him though). And if push comes to shove he can easy buddy Baki for Swallow strike which can go far on a unit like him. IK is harder on him but he can still do stuff at base(which is something not a lot of the cast can say in IK) With a Hana pair up and Speed tonic he can double the chapter 11 Ninja's with the reverse Katana from chapter 9. He can also single handedly take on chapter 14 generals provided he gets hit once and he doesn't miss. Not a lot, but he can do stuff.

Worst is between Yomi(Ricken 2.0) or Mozume in Hoshido. Orochi at least doesn't take a movement penalty in chapter 8. I'm leaning more towards Mozume being worse since Yomi gives speed in pair up. In IK Odin is by far the worse unit the route. Dude gets OHKO'd at 100% accuracy while getting doubled by a random Paladin and he can only do 1 damage to it. At least Mozume is terrible in chapter 8/9 instead of Odin being terrible in chapter 17.

Edited by Shephen
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I have very low train-patience thresholds and unless they're one of my literal favorites as characters I won't bother if they take too much work, so someone like Tsukuyomi will probably test my patience too much for me to bother with.

I prefer to focus on strategies rather than training characters themselves, so I'd rather use low effort easy payoff characters.

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Well I said "worst" as in compared to everyone else. He's got a pretty bad start and the Knights can be taken care of by like, Steel Shuriken Saizou, Armorslayer Hana or Base Oboro. In IK he gets buffed bases/level though.

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15% from Flamboyant, 10% from Hoshido, and chance to trigger skills.

Golden-kites will not only have 31 Spd and 33 Skl. With the same modifiers a Hero is still faster, and that is so-called "thinking about how to survive from their attacks".

still, all this proves is that the skill set is OP, not the unit. and precisely because Hero is faster, the above numbers should be much lower (halved). you'd have to give me reasons for why GKW is preferable over Dark Knight or Bow Knight or else GKW is still bad comparatively. Dark Knight can't x4 either but has 1~2 range if he fails to ORKO so the enemy can still die if they try to attack on their turn (vs Bow user who is now completely helpless at 1-range). Bow Knight is stronger, bulkier, and enough Spd to double a lot more

also, I'm using Class Max because mods can be for both sides, easily. you might put +Spd mods on your GKW but the opponent would obviously like the same. so GKW is always at a deficit, all things being even (there's no reason for you to have more options than your opponent, is there?). I can replace GKW with Bow Knight and the question of "thinking about how to survive their attacks" becomes way more serious now because the Brave Hero is now at a deficit

Edited by GoXDS
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I have very low train-patience thresholds and unless they're one of my literal favorites as characters I won't bother if they take too much work, so someone like Tsukuyomi will probably test my patience too much for me to bother with.

I prefer to focus on strategies rather than training characters themselves, so I'd rather use low effort easy payoff characters.

Well the game does hand you Ryoma and Crimson in Hoshido who can probably steamroll the rest of the game by themselves (with some degree of help anyway)

Maybe less so on Lunatic.

I largely have very awkward preferences and expectations, but I suppose stats aren't the end of everything, skills and Guard Stance seem to throw a lot of things into whack. I'll see if I have more to add if/when I have more numbers, if that would help....

+Spd and/or Def Pairup is "obviously" the best, +Str second if it helps to push into ORKO or OHKO territory, though I'm not sure how often that is.

OHKO with Armorslayer is not that difficult apparently, though I'm not sure if the triangle might disadvantage is tripled...

I think I saw Belka on here, how is she?

Last I checked a long time ago, the general consensus was that she was outclassed by Camilla
Wyvern Lord 20/20
Camilla does have about 40 HP, 30 STR/SPD/DEF, and she starts with "better bases"
Belka has 41 HP, 30 STR, 23 SPD, 35 DEF
Belka's main advantage is that she can swap to the Fighter tree for "free sol" (she does have good skill, although that's not really that great in the grand scheme of things) and axefaire (but that comes pretty late, it's not going to help her standing very much)
Really Speed is Belka's only real problem of sorts, even as a Berserker, she only has 27 Speed at 20/20
Edited by CocoaGalaxy
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I think I saw Belka on here, how is she?

She is pretty alright. Defense and Skill are all great and Attack is pretty good. Hp and Spd are a little problematic at times. Hp can be mitigated a bit by having her spend some time as a Fighter for Hp+5(and even Roundhouse since her skill is really good). Speed can't be solved easily with out speed wings or gluing Luna to her but Leo and Xander make more use of the speed dump. Still has her moments when trained.

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Belka strikes me as IS's attempt to give a Berserker good accuracy without making them too strong. She's definitely not a bad unit, there's just low incentive to use her.

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What do people think about Dark Knights? Their speed REALLY stinks (27 as their cap, and only 5% class growth). I mean, that seems really debilitating for a class that should be a mixed offensive class do to it really hurting their ability to double.

I get the feeling that the Avatar could pull it off thanks to his special Yato bonuses (particularly, the +2/+4 Spd just for having Yato [Hoshido/IK version] in the inventory, not to mention the class can yield it too; the +4 Str [Hoshido] and +4 Def/+4Res [iK} that it also gets would be a bonus. Also, the Avatar seems to be one of the few characters who can get decent STR and MAG growths simulanteously; a magic asset gives him personals of 45% Str, 50% Mag, and even 50% spd before the flaw, which should really help him in using both stats; and MAG also gives +2 SPD cap, also helping with SPD issues …. so I get the feeling these combined with the Yato bonuses could let him pull of Dark Knight pretty well [although this is pure speculation, as I don't have the game yet]….

But nonetheless, I get the feeling that the other characters really might have trouble with this class…. well, I suppose a SPD dumped Leon could do well with it thanks to his advantages of having his Personal tome and it giving him some bulk….

But is it just me, or will the other characters somewhat struggle in using it as a final class without these sorts of advantages [+MAG growths, personal weapons, etc.]?

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What do people think about Dark Knights? Their speed REALLY stinks (27 as their cap, and only 5% class growth). I mean, that seems really debilitating for a class that should be a mixed offensive class do to it really hurting their ability to double.

I get the feeling that the Avatar could pull it off thanks to his special Yato bonuses (particularly, the +2/+4 Spd just for having Yato [Hoshido/IK version] in the inventory, not to mention the class can yield it too; the +4 Str [Hoshido] and +4 Def/+4Res [iK} that it also gets would be a bonus. Also, the Avatar seems to be one of the few characters who can get decent STR and MAG growths simulanteously; a magic asset gives him personals of 45% Str, 50% Mag, and even 50% spd before the flaw, which should really help him in using both stats; and MAG also gives +2 SPD cap, also helping with SPD issues …. so I get the feeling these combined with the Yato bonuses could let him pull of Dark Knight pretty well [although this is pure speculation, as I don't have the game yet]….

But nonetheless, I get the feeling that the other characters really might have trouble with this class…. well, I suppose a SPD dumped Leon could do well with it thanks to his advantages of having his Personal tome and it giving him some bulk….

But is it just me, or will the other characters somewhat struggle in using it as a final class without these sorts of advantages [+MAG growths, personal weapons, etc.]?

other than Skl (which isn't really needed in excess), Spd is the Dark Knight's only issue as an endgame class. 27 is really low though so it's probably only viable with Defensive formation or something but I don't even know if that's worth it. General/Great Knight do better in bulk and pure dmg (though Dark knight mixes) while another mixed class like Basara is just faster and about as strong with arguably better bulk (that 65 HP). the thing Dark knight gets in return is 8 Move which...eh *shrug*

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I mean, enemy stats are the same on HM and LM with the only difference being weapon rank (meaning 1 of 2 Atk extra for each enemy) so you can check something like Omegaevolution's playthrough if you want stats.

Really, I didn't know this. No wonder why Hard Nohr is such a pain to beat. Though most of my deaths actually came from 80+% misses and 1-3% crits, curse you Anna!

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Yeah…. my motivating thoughts on a Dark Knight is basically a magic user that can also use swords outside of DLC classes…. because that sort of stuff appeals to me… Dark Blood can basically fill that role in Nohr/[CORRECTION: Invisible Kingdom, not Hoshido], but Dark Knight is the only sword/tome class outside the DLC only Grandmaster that I'm aware of on Hoshido…. swords are desirable because although I really like magic, I don't want to have to give up Yato either.

You do raise an excellent point about Basara; they have max stats of 30 or more (except for HP and Move) across the board: 65HP, 31 Str, 30 Mag, 30 Skl, 31 Spd, 35 Lck, 30 Def, 32 Res, and 6 move. They also have 90% in total growths, including a 20% HP growth. But they cannot use Yato, so while I'd tend to agree they're most likely the better class overall, I'd rather keep my Avatar away from them. [They can get the possession bonuses of Yato, but they cannot wield Yato in combat for physical attacks vs. enemies themselves]. Basara also get A rank lances and B rank tomes, which means they could pull off two Brave type weapons if they wanted the choice: Brave Lance (A-rank) + Lightning (C rank). It looks like a really great class.

But onto the Dark Knight, the non-DLC mage class in Hoshido that can actually use the Yato: 55 HP, 32 Str, 31 Mag, 28 Skl, 27 Spd, 31 Lck, 34 Def, 30 Res, 8 move. Generally worse stats, notably SPD… Now, something like a +MAG/-DEF build could allow a distribution like 55 HP, 32 Str, 35 Mag, 28 Skl, 29 Spd, 30 Lck, 31 Def, 31 Res…. of course, Basara can also use asset/flaws.

Dark Knight does have an offense edge (if you can boost them enough to double in the first place) with 8 STR and 6 Mag base (I think Basara is something like 7 Str and 5 Mag) and superior offense stat growths: 20% Str and 10% Mag vs. 10% for both on a Basara. Defensively, the Basara gets 20% HP, 5% Def, and 10% Res; the Dark Knight gets 15% HP, 15% Def, and 5% Res. Their bases are similar for DEF; Basara gets 1 more HP, Dark Knights get 1 more Def, both have equal RES bases.

I think the Dark Knight might actually win it in the category of pair-up boosts, although this doesn't make it win as a unit: Dark Knight gives +3 Mag, +3 Def, and +1 move. Basara gives +5 Luck and +3 Res… the DEF and Res are of equal str, just for different stats [so it depends which one you want to help out more], but I'd argue that the +3 Mag and +1 Move from a Dark Knight is likely to be FAR more helpful than the +5 Lck from a Basara unless the person you're supporting is really that desperate for crit evade.

But yeah, I think Basara is better overall….

I like the Bind skill that Dark Knight have, that said…. it gives Yato (and Dragonstones if you class change back to your original class) a big accuracy bonus. But Basara gives you Breaking Sky….

EDIT: Dark Knights could help out their SPD issues with a Quick Draw Katanna or Horse God…. of course, both of these have low offenses, so its probably not all that worth it for most character…. Kamui would have the advantage of being able to stack these with Yato's possession bonuses: +4 SPD + either 3 SPD from Horse God (as well as +3 Skl/Def/Res) or +5 Spd from Quick Draw Katanna: so that could bring it up to +7 or +9 SPd…. of course, the problem is that any other class that uses those weapon types can do that same trick.

EDIT: Dark Knights are probably fast enough for the final bosses if your the Hoshido/IK Avatar, as an Avatar with the +4 SPD Yato; The Avatar starts with 6 SPD as a level 1 Nohr Prince; the class base for that class is 5 Spd and the base for Dark Knight is the same, so he still keeps that 6 Spd; a +MAG avatar would have 50% personal spd growth, so 60% as Nohr Prince and then 55% as Dark Knight…. That brings you up to 20/20 stats including 27.85 Spd on average…. let's call it 27…. Yato boosts you to 31 SPD then (32 if you're attacking with it). A Trueblade partner would give you +5 Spd, a Holy lancer +2 Spd, and Exorcist +4 Spd, a Pegasus Warrior or a Holy Bowman +3 Spd, etc. This is also ignoring personal pair-up C/B/AS-rank bonuses that may push it higher. So that would then bring you up to something like 33 to 36 Spd without Yato equipped and 34 to 37 when its equipped (which you probably would against the bosses with Dragonskin)…. toss on a Speed tonic and you double the IK Lunatic final boss (31 Spd) even with just the +2 Spd bonus… the +4 bonuses double it even without the tonic. Also, I don't know about IK Lunatic regular enemies, but I know that its Hard Mode Berskers and Bow Knights top out at 27 Spd, so Yato would let them be doubled…. but yeah, I wouldn't advise it for characters without the Yato SPD bonus.

Edited by astrophys
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Player dark knights are really ehish of sorts, Leo and Kamui both somewhat make up for it with their attempt at mixed stats, but it's still "eh" at best.

Enemy dark knights show that (of course, if only we had that kind of silly stats) that Dark Knights are supposed to be slow mixed attackers + tanks, though it's more that they're physical tanks that are threatening because not many (if any) classes can tank both a sword and a magic

That being said, their swords are a little threatening at times, but it seems most of the time they are just dispatched using magic since they have poor resistance

Kamui has low defenses but has somewhat better offenses I guess. Leo has ..fairly balanced stats, in all honesty Leo's main bonus is his magic

The other character options either end up awkwardly (Pieri might as well be a Paladin/Great Knight since she won't be using magic anyway) or with some level of Defense...and not much, if any strength. Player characters just don't have the Str and Mag to use both at the same time really....

...And when I actually check my list

20/20 Dark Knight Odin: 45 HP, 30 STR, 23 MAG, 23 SPD, 28 DEF, 17 RES

20/20 Dark Knight Zero: 40 HP, 29 STR, 20 MAG, 29 SPD, 25 DEF, 28 RES

Nyx is faster, but has only 15 Str and poor(er) Defense

Pieri is just....11 Magic...

Camilla has 17, so you "could" do it if you really wanted to

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Yeah…. Kamui can actually must better offenses than any of these options, although at some major costs from his flaw:

All numbers will be rounded down to the last complete integer

Leveling assumption: assuming 19 levels as Nohr Prince, promote, class change, 19 levels as Dark Knight.

Actually equipping the Yato should produce +1 Spd & -1Def/Res relative to the listed values.

+MAG/-DEF Dark Knight 20/20 Kamui: 43 HP, 31 Str, 32 Mag, 27 Skl, 27 Spd, 24 Lck, 22 Def, 17 Res

----> w/IK Yato possession (intermediate): 43 HP, 33 Str, 32 Mag, 27 Skl, 29 Spd, 24 Lck, 24 Def, 19 Res

----> w/IK Yato possession (final upgrade): 43 HP, 35 Str, 32 Mag, 27 Skl, 31 Spd, 24 Lck, 26 Def, 21 Res

Caps: 55 HP, 32 Str, 35 Mag, 28 Skl, 29 Spd, 30 Lck, 31 Def, 31 Res

+MAG/-LCK Dark Knight 20/20 Kamui: 43 HP, 29 Str, 30 Mag, 27 Skl, 27 Spd, 16 Lck, 27 Def, 19 Res

----> w/IK Yato possession (intermediate): 43 HP, 31 Str, 30 Mag, 27 Skl, 29 Spd, 16 Lck, 29 Def, 21 Res

----> w/IK Yato possession (final upgrade): 43 HP, 33 Str, 30 Mag, 27 Skl, 31 Spd, 16 Lck, 31 Def, 23 Res

Caps: 55 HP, 31 Str, 34 Mag, 28 Skl, 29 Spd, 28 Lck, 34 Def, 32 Res, 8 move.

Yeah, so those are the predicted average outcomes.

Skills known in this progression: Noble Lineage, Dragon's Fang, Bind, Devilish Wind, Magic Seal, Lifetaker

Additional skills can be learned at the costs of additional Seals and spending a few levels outside the class, which will also slightly shift stat distributions in accordance to growth rates.

Edited by astrophys
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still, all this proves is that the skill set is OP, not the unit. and precisely because Hero is faster, the above numbers should be much lower (halved). you'd have to give me reasons for why GKW is preferable over Dark Knight or Bow Knight or else GKW is still bad comparatively. Dark Knight can't x4 either but has 1~2 range if he fails to ORKO so the enemy can still die if they try to attack on their turn (vs Bow user who is now completely helpless at 1-range). Bow Knight is stronger, bulkier, and enough Spd to double a lot more

also, I'm using Class Max because mods can be for both sides, easily. you might put +Spd mods on your GKW but the opponent would obviously like the same. so GKW is always at a deficit, all things being even (there's no reason for you to have more options than your opponent, is there?). I can replace GKW with Bow Knight and the question of "thinking about how to survive their attacks" becomes way more serious now because the Brave Hero is now at a deficit

Bow Knight can fly. Flight doesn't matter most of the time but it matters a lot in PvP because we can try to benefit from it.

GKW still have big chance to OHKO Hero with 2 hits so that is not a deficit. Even if it is, having highest movement means GKW can choose the weakest one to attack. You have to make all your units to have +Spd mod or whatever because your opponent has 1 or 2 GKW. Then those speeds are almost wasted when they are facing Defensive Formation units.

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Bow Knight can fly. Flight doesn't matter most of the time but it matters a lot in PvP because we can try to benefit from it.

GKW still have big chance to OHKO Hero with 2 hits so that is not a deficit. Even if it is, having highest movement means GKW can choose the weakest one to attack. You have to make all your units to have +Spd mod or whatever because your opponent has 1 or 2 GKW. Then those speeds are almost wasted when they are facing Defensive Formation units.

*Bow Knight can't fly?

as we've both said, most of the time it won't matter if you can fly or not. this includes PvP. I already acknowledge the skill set can be op, but that's not because of GKW but because of the set itself. the only thing that GKW has over Bow Knight is flight but that's very situational and uncommon.

+Spd mods on everyone isn't even hard when you only need to factor 5 units. plus, you want +Spd mods regardless of this set existing or not.

you're also still overstating that Movement. other 8 Range can do the same bar uncommon terrain limitations. and GKW can't simply choose the weakest unit. not all of them are the same distance (let alone even in range) and obviously the opponent would put his most susceptible in the back. you make it seem as if people simply loiter into range of the GKW and let themselves get attacked for free

Defensive Formation hurts the user offensively just as much as the opponent. and who's going to put a ton of Defensive Formation on their team?

there's still very, very few situations where GKW > Bow Knight but let's try this

Falcon Warrior with Shinrai Naginata with LoD/Aggressor/Swallow Strike/Lancefaire/Extravagence

10+7+5+10 for skills +27 Mag + 11 Mt = 70 then minus Brave Hero's 27 Res, that's 43. easy x2 for kill. can even drop LoD and that's 33 x2 = 66. even with Axe equipped for -1 atk, that's 64 dmg (Sword equipped, 68). Falcon is actually really fast at 34 Spd, too so it's "really easy" to double. Falcon Warrior also has more bulk and can counterattack at 1 range if they fail to kill. let's also not forget Mighty Bow's negative effect of halving Str, too so they can't even do it properly half the time. they're also a major sitting duck during Enemy phase while Falcon Warrior wouldn't be.

Defensive Formation? I can just choose the weaker unit, no?

if we want to take this into another direction, Rescue Staves now renders extra movement superfluous. any and all classes can pull off this skill set

Edited by GoXDS
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What about Lazward and Luna? Which one is better (or is a lot worse than the other). Are they salvageable? Are heroes good in this game?

They are both good Luna is faster and more defensive and Lazward hits harder. They come early into the story too.

Well on the Nohr path, not Ik.

Also as for bad units. I honestly don't like using Axe units without getting the Hit+40skill from the bowman class. I just hate how inaccurate axes are. Axe users themselves aren't bad I suppose. Charlotte and Camilla are really good but eh.

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What about Lazward and Luna? Which one is better (or is a lot worse than the other). Are they salvageable? Are heroes good in this game?

Luna's got more availability and higher speed which matters more since you can always Forge for offense.

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*Bow Knight can't fly?

as we've both said, most of the time it won't matter if you can fly or not. this includes PvP. I already acknowledge the skill set can be op, but that's not because of GKW but because of the set itself. the only thing that GKW has over Bow Knight is flight but that's very situational and uncommon.

+Spd mods on everyone isn't even hard when you only need to factor 5 units. plus, you want +Spd mods regardless of this set existing or not.

you're also still overstating that Movement. other 8 Range can do the same bar uncommon terrain limitations. and GKW can't simply choose the weakest unit. not all of them are the same distance (let alone even in range) and obviously the opponent would put his most susceptible in the back. you make it seem as if people simply loiter into range of the GKW and let themselves get attacked for free

Defensive Formation hurts the user offensively just as much as the opponent. and who's going to put a ton of Defensive Formation on their team?

there's still very, very few situations where GKW > Bow Knight but let's try this

Falcon Warrior with Shinrai Naginata with LoD/Aggressor/Swallow Strike/Lancefaire/Extravagence

10+7+5+10 for skills +27 Mag + 11 Mt = 70 then minus Brave Hero's 27 Res, that's 43. easy x2 for kill. can even drop LoD and that's 33 x2 = 66. even with Axe equipped for -1 atk, that's 64 dmg (Sword equipped, 68). Falcon is actually really fast at 34 Spd, too so it's "really easy" to double. Falcon Warrior also has more bulk and can counterattack at 1 range if they fail to kill. let's also not forget Mighty Bow's negative effect of halving Str, too so they can't even do it properly half the time. they're also a major sitting duck during Enemy phase while Falcon Warrior wouldn't be.

Defensive Formation? I can just choose the weaker unit, no?

if we want to take this into another direction, Rescue Staves now renders extra movement superfluous. any and all classes can pull off this skill set

I can't agree with "flight doesn't matter in PvP". You can say it again and again but there are still plots to stop units who can't fly.

Defensive Formation units don't need +Spd mod. You are using +Spd mod and they are using other mod that still useful with Defensive Formation, you are in fast classes and they are in slow class with better numbers on other stats, so it's obvious that you are hurt more.

Shinrai Naginata can't trigger skills like Breaking Sky, while your opponent still trigger skills, so the damage won't be as much as you think. When you have LoD and almost all enemies can reach you, don't think about counters.

Range 1 weapons are better for Falcons to attack with. And there are better choice for them than attacking because they can use staves. Falcon is a good class for PvP, actually.

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What about Lazward and Luna? Which one is better (or is a lot worse than the other). Are they salvageable? Are heroes good in this game?

Silas can be a better Hero than both.

Luna is going to deal few damages in later chapters with a sword. Bows have higher Mt to fix her Str, and there are many Falcon/Golden-kite Warriors in Nohr route.

Luna has good Spd&Def for Kunaibreaker. Somebody may say "Nohr 25 is only a single chapter" though...

One more reason to use Bow Knight Luna is the unique outfit.

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I can't agree with "flight doesn't matter in PvP". You can say it again and again but there are still plots to stop units who can't fly.

Defensive Formation units don't need +Spd mod. You are using +Spd mod and they are using other mod that still useful with Defensive Formation, you are in fast classes and they are in slow class with better numbers on other stats, so it's obvious that you are hurt more.

Shinrai Naginata can't trigger skills like Breaking Sky, while your opponent still trigger skills, so the damage won't be as much as you think. When you have LoD and almost all enemies can reach you, don't think about counters.

Range 1 weapons are better for Falcons to attack with. And there are better choice for them than attacking because they can use staves. Falcon is a good class for PvP, actually.

we'll just disagree on Flight but I can almost guarantee you the chances are less than 20% of the time Flight will come into play and even less where it matters. and again, if you want to factor in Rescue, that completely dwarves Movement and Flight

it's not like you're wasting resources by investing in +Spd mods... and again, most people will not make Defensive Formation a common stat. and it's an opportunity cost because now they're short 1 Slot compared to non-Defensive Formation users, so no. it's not obvious

you don't need Shinrai to trigger. did my set need it? no. wasn't the whole pt killing from afar where the Opponent can't respond? and I already said you did enough dmg with just 3 of the skills so you can drop LoD and still get 100% kill. and you have to think about counters. it's not like they can't help. another thing to keep in mind is your own Flamboyance increases your opponent's chance to trigger Aegis or Miracle.

maybe Falcons do better with Range 1. the whole pt was to show that GKW is outclassed and Falcon with Shinrai is sufficient to "force you to think about how to surive" (though again, it's not because of Class, it's because of the skill set).

Edited by GoXDS
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What about Lazward and Luna? Which one is better (or is a lot worse than the other). Are they salvageable? Are heroes good in this game?

Neither of them have incredible bases or other special attributes, but their bases/growths seem good enough to get by. Heroes suffer a little from 1-2 range axes not being as good, but they're still a solid choice. Would go for Hero over Bow Knight for both of them due to better bases overall and Sol>Rally Skill.

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