Worst Units and Classes

[Thor Odinson]

How many parallel seals are available? I know I want at least 2 for Rinka reserved, and for every run, and I may or may not do Hinolancer (Hinoka's not a bad unit by any stretch, but more just reserving a parallel seal for her here) , so I'm looking at fitting one more seal for Tsubaki in. Would I have enough?

Man why do some of my favs gotta be so bad

[CocoaGalaxy]

How many parallel seals are available? I know I want at least 2 for Rinka reserved, and for every run, and I may or may not do Hinolancer (Hinoka's not a bad unit by any stretch, but more just reserving a parallel seal for her here) , so I'm looking at fitting one more seal for Tsubaki in. Would I have enough?

Man why do some of my favs gotta be so bad

You can buy as many as you want from other players

There are next to no parallel seals from the story, if any

The only one that I know of is dropped by the boss of Nohr 9

Edited September 22, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[-Cynthia-]

If you are talking about efficiency, then Mozume is a very efficient unit in Nohr route if you reclass her as an Archer (it's easier to train a early weak game ranged unit than a early weak game melee unit). And besides, the Nohr route is infamous for having a lot of flying units and the lack of good bow users you can use, which is why Mozume is far more useful in the Nohr route than Hoshido route (yes, it's going to be hard to train Mozume in Nohr route, but it's worth the investment).

6 Str E Bows OHKOd by most things is not generally a recipe for an efficient unit. I've seen enemy stats and on Lunatic Mozume is doing like less than 5 damage a hit at base. If people want to go through the effort of training her, good for them but I'm very skeptical of her saving any turns on higher difficulties.

Edited September 22, 2015 by -Cynthia-

[Thor Odinson]

rip

the one character I actually want to favor in Nohr (Charlotte), I want to use her in berserker too

...has anyone tried Oni Charlotte? I'm willing to expend a MaMU resource on her too.

[gayserbeam]

rip

the one character I actually want to favor in Nohr (Charlotte), I want to use her in berserker too

...has anyone tried Oni Charlotte? I'm willing to expend a MaMU resource on her too.

Oni is valuable for Charlotte so she can have Ogre Strike as a Berserker, and perhaps for Counter to take advantage of her high HP and low DEF. It's just that as a final class, the only real advantage of Shura or Blacksmith over Berserker is some bulk. And generally having 88 Crit from Ogre Strike, Roundhouse, Killer Axe and the class bonus is better than bulk, especially since her HP and speed are great and she has natural access to Sol.

Shura is a waste as a permanent class because of the low speed and the magic Charlotte won't use, and Blacksmiths are practically just Hoshidan Brave Heroes in terms of caps and weapons (the only significant difference being which weapon gets an A rank) and Charlotte gets Hero naturally.

Edited September 22, 2015 by gayserbeam

[avengerfive]

Subaki can still be useful as a falcon warrior. Rally speed, healing, ferrying, pairup bonuses and rescuing are all very useful. From what I've read is that all characters are usable, even in Lunatic. From an efficiency standpoint you probably want to use royals, Effie, Zero, prepromotes (Yuugiri and Crimson) and it will probably help to early promote characters.

[Thor Odinson]

Oni is valuable for Charlotte so she can have Ogre Strike as a Berserker, and perhaps for Counter to take advantage of her high HP and low DEF. It's just that as a final class, the only real advantage of Shura or Blacksmith over Berserker is some bulk. And generally having 88 Crit from Ogre Strike, Roundhouse, Killer Axe and the class bonus is better than bulk, especially since her HP and speed are great and she has natural access to Sol.

Shura is a waste as a permanent class because of the low speed and the magic Charlotte won't use, and Blacksmiths are practically just Hoshidan Brave Heroes in terms of caps and weapons (the only significant difference being which weapon gets an A rank) and Charlotte gets Hero naturally.

Not as a final class, of course. I mean as more of just a in-storyline class--since one of Charlotte's weaknesses is defense and she has naturally great HP/Str/Spd, while Oni could potentially help patch the defense bit up while advancing through. Past15 I'd definitely bring her back to Zerker. Maybe take a detour to grab the 2 hero skills first if I got the seals.

What I really meant to ask is, has anyone tried Oni!Charlotte in-story and was the defense boost useful in getting her up and running? None of this is for postgame setup. That's the other thread, anyway. I mean IK I have rinka A for that, but would it be worth giving it to her through MaMU on Nohr route, as opposed to anything else she might want?

Edited September 22, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[Luninareph]

Subaki's niche is Javelins and Spears. Their weakness is lower accuracy and inability to double; Subaki won't be doubling anything anyway and his passive gives him bonus accuracy. Their range keeps him off the front line, so he keeps his passive bonus up longer, and his survivability and the passive's evasion might help him survive if you mess up and he gets targeted. He also has pretty good MAG growth for a fighter, so he can use staffs both adeptly and safely from his ranged position.

[Minischew]

Here's a review I read of Subaki on GameFaq (from the link on the Best Units post). After reading it, I thought Subaki would make a decent unit, but everyone here is ragging on him, and it's confusing me a bit.

"He will need stat boosters like energy drops, speedwings, and potentially a seraph robe to reach his full potential. Thankfully for him, he has the highest payoff with those stat boosters and they won't go to waste on him. Despite some of his shortcomings, he is still an amazing unit and I would put him in 6-10 range of best units in Hoshido."

Would you guys all disagree with this? Can he really not be salvaged? I'm trying to plan out which units I should invest my stat boosters in, and I don't want to waste it on a bottom tier character (since he's not a particular favorite of mine). My own opinion is that he seems lackluster on paper, but I found that characters I didn't expect to use in Awakening ended up being on my main team, so I'd rather not speak without experience, haha.

[Dark Sage]

Tsubaki's apparently Lowen on a Pegasus, except he has a high speed base and Swallow Strike. So long as his AS at least matches an enemy's he won't have problems doubling.

Tsubaki's also a good candidate for a resource dump because he flies, has good move, and decent enough combat and bulk to make the dump worth it. It's certainly better than dumping them on somebody like Rinkah or Hana, who look terrible.

Also on IK, Odin is hilariously bad, like close to Wendy level bad. Gets ORKO'd and even OHKO'd by all the enemies on his join map and does 1 damage in return gg.

Edited September 22, 2015 by Dark Sage

[-Cynthia-]

Yeah, in IK there are definitely more 'bad' units since a number of the Nohr units join like 6 chapters later without a change to their bases or like 7-9 chapters later with a very minor boost. Arthur, Effie, Nyx, Odin, Zero probably get the worst of it.

[Tooru]

Bad growth, bad stats, bad everything, and all these make Golden-kite Warrior one of the most popular classes in PvP.

Benoit has much higher Def than other tanks. I don't understand why people think 10 is a small number for received damage, but being doubled by 4*2 or even 0*2 is dangerous.

A lot enemies have the AI setting of "not to attack when the damage is 0 and the unit can counter". Some of them may stay next to Benoit, and wait for you to kill them by any units you want. Some of them even don't move when Benoit is killing them one by one.

For other tanks, because they are still receiving damage, enemies attack them, debuff them, poison them, Cut Through them, sometimes may be killed by them so there are plots for more attacking. I believe that they can still survive with right set-ups and good tactics, but if you have Benoit, things become much easier.

[-Cynthia-]

Benoit's base Def is high, but not really that much higher than your other units. 1 pt higher than Camilla (who joined 3 chapters ago), 3 pts higher than Leo/Flannel, 8 points behind Xander. I don't think that poison/debuffs etc. are contingent upon doing damage or not anyway. His Def growth is pretty good (although only 5% above Flannel for instance), but it'll take a while for those to make a significant difference.

Maybe on lower difficulties Benoit gets tinked, but if enemies are only packing 19 Atk then our units aren't in much danger of dying. I don't think Benoit is a terrible unit, but other units can have similar tankiness and double enemies/have more Mov.

[Tooru]

Benoit's base Def is high, but not really that much higher than your other units. 1 pt higher than Camilla (who joined 3 chapters ago), 3 pts higher than Leo/Flannel, 8 points behind Xander. I don't think that poison/debuffs etc. are contingent upon doing damage or not anyway. His Def growth is pretty good (although only 5% above Flannel for instance), but it'll take a while for those to make a significant difference.

Maybe on lower difficulties Benoit gets tinked, but if enemies are only packing 19 Atk then our units aren't in much danger of dying. I don't think Benoit is a terrible unit, but other units can have similar tankiness and double enemies/have more Mov.

The AI setting is true (at least in lunatic).

It works for Ninjas/Puppets in chapter 17, as well as those Trueblades with Cut Through and Flying Dagger. As I mentioned, Benoit needs a rang 1~2 weapon so "the unit can counter".

In chapter 23, Benoit killed Basaras and Holy Bowmen in the building one by one, but those Holy Lancers with Defence Seal and Cut Through did nothing.

[gayserbeam]

Not as a final class, of course. I mean as more of just a in-storyline class--since one of Charlotte's weaknesses is defense and she has naturally great HP/Str/Spd, while Oni could potentially help patch the defense bit up while advancing through. Past15 I'd definitely bring her back to Zerker. Maybe take a detour to grab the 2 hero skills first if I got the seals.

What I really meant to ask is, has anyone tried Oni!Charlotte in-story and was the defense boost useful in getting her up and running? None of this is for postgame setup. That's the other thread, anyway. I mean IK I have rinka A for that, but would it be worth giving it to her through MaMU on Nohr route, as opposed to anything else she might want?

I didn't try in Nohr but in IK I had Rinkah immediately go through Fighter and Charlotte almost (level 11) immediately go through Oni, and Charlotte had 19 DEF at 20/5 after learning Ogre Strike which became 14 DEF after reclassing to Berserker. I don't have Rinkah's DEF recorded anywhere, but it was definitely higher.

Of course, this is all anecdotal, but calculated:

As Oni

1. Charlotte at level 10 has 8 DEF

2. Reclass to Oni for 11 DEF

3. 11DEF+[(10 level-ups)×(0.2+0.2)= 15 DEF

4. Promote to Shura for 18 DEF

5. 18DEF+[(5 level-ups)×(0.2+0.2)]= 20 DEF

If you reclass to Berserker now at Level 20/5, Charlotte will have 15 DEF

6. 20DEF+[(10 level-ups)×(0.2+0.2)= 24 DEF

If you reclass to Berserker now at Level 20/15, Charlotte will have 19 DEF

As Fighter

1. Charlotte at level 10 has 8 DEF

2. 8DEF+[(10 level-ups)×(0.2+0.05)]=10 DEF

3. Promote to Brave Hero for 13 DEF

4. 13DEF+[(5 level-ups)×(0.2+0.1)]=14 DEF

If you reclass to Berserker now at Level 20/5, Charlotte will have 12 DEF

5. 14DEF+[(10 level-ups)×(0.2+0.1)]=17 DEF

If you reclass to Berserker now at Level 20/15, Charlotte will have 15 DEF

So raising Charlotte as an Oni>Shura rather than a Fighter>Hero results in a benefit of 1 DEF at level 20, a benefit of 3 DEF at level 20/5, and a benefit of 4 DEF at level 20/15. Basically you sacrifice 1 SPD for 4 DEF, which isn't bad at all, although "getting her up and running" isn't really it because the boost is not really significant for a while and her defense will still be low when you reclass back.

If anything it's best just to spend enough time for Ogre Strike because the best defensive ability Charlotte has is ORKOing everything she comes into contact with.

Edited September 22, 2015 by gayserbeam

[Thor Odinson]

I didn't try in Nohr but in IK I had Rinkah immediately go through Fighter and Charlotte almost (level 11) immediately go through Oni, and Charlotte had 19 DEF at 20/5 after learning Ogre Strike which became 14 DEF after reclassing to Berserker. I don't have Rinkah's DEF recorded anywhere, but it was definitely higher.

Of course, this is all anecdotal, but calculated:

As Oni

1. Charlotte at level 10 has 8 DEF

2. Reclass to Oni for 11 DEF

3. 11DEF+[(10 level-ups)×(0.2+0.2)= 15 DEF

4. Promote to Shura for 18 DEF

5. 18DEF+[(5 level-ups)×(0.2+0.2)]= 20 DEF

If you reclass to Berserker now at Level 20/5, Charlotte will have 15 DEF

6. 20DEF+[(10 level-ups)×(0.2+0.2)= 24 DEF

If you reclass to Berserker now at Level 20/15, Charlotte will have 19 DEF

As Fighter

1. Charlotte at level 10 has 8 DEF

2. 8DEF+[(10 level-ups)×(0.2+0.05)]=10 DEF

3. Promote to Brave Hero for 13 DEF

4. 13DEF+[(5 level-ups)×(0.2+0.1)]=14 DEF

If you reclass to Berserker now at Level 20/5, Charlotte will have 12 DEF

5. 14DEF+[(10 level-ups)×(0.2+0.1)]=17 DEF

If you reclass to Berserker now at Level 20/15, Charlotte will have 15 DEF

So raising Charlotte as an Oni>Shura rather than a Fighter>Hero results in a benefit of 1 DEF at level 20, a benefit of 3 DEF at level 20/5, and a benefit of 4 DEF at level 20/15. Basically you sacrifice 1 SPD for 4 DEF, which isn't bad at all, although "getting her up and running" isn't really it because the boost is not really significant for a while and her defense will still be low when you reclass back.

If anything it's best just to spend enough time for Ogre Strike because the best defensive ability Charlotte has is ORKOing everything she comes into contact with.

Alright, got it. Thanks!

[-Cynthia-]

The AI setting is true (at least in lunatic).

It works for Ninjas/Puppets in chapter 17, as well as those Trueblades with Cut Through and Flying Dagger. As I mentioned, Benoit needs a rang 1~2 weapon so "the unit can counter".

In chapter 23, Benoit killed Basaras and Holy Bowmen in the building one by one, but those Holy Lancers with Defence Seal and Cut Through did nothing.

Killing units one by one is going to be an inefficient strategy most of the time.

[CocoaGalaxy]

Man, now that I actually looked at it, I'd forgotten just how bad Hinata and Subaki's speed growths are (15% and 20%...really game this is just...)

(Orochi also has 15 speed growth, for what it's worth. The only other character with a speed growth this bad on Hoshido is Yukimura, which I don't really bother with since he is a my castle character, and I don't really know much about them.)

All the other Hoshidan characters have at least a 40% speed growth bar Saizou (who has 30), so really, it's just...."so bad"

(The slowest Nohrian is, of course, Benoit with 10%. Every other Nohrian has at least 30)

The "interesting" thing to note is that I believe the averages are actually the same for both sides

Though in Hoshido, most of the characters (as I said above) have 40-50ish speed growth, while for Nohr, it's a bit more split between the 30/35, and the 50/55 growth characters (only Leo and Luna have a 45 speed growth, and nobody has a 40 speed growth)

In Hoshido, only Hana (55), Setsuna (60), Kagerou (50) and...Crimson (50) have a speed growth of 50 or higher. Everyone else is 40 or 45 really.

The shared characters are pretty fast for what it's worth..somewhat.

Anyway, my main qualm with Setsuna is that her strength is really not very good (it's really..low. I'll get the numbers later I suppose)

Her defense isn't very good either, but it seems not everyone cares nearly as much about defense

Her only saving grace is that her speed is through the roof, and at least that will help her a fair bit, though bowfaire is pretty far away, so she only really has Prescient Victory for a long time

Edited September 22, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[riolumaster]

It depends on which units we're talking about

On non Lunatic (and maybe even then...) you can just save scum for good Levels.

It also depends on the number of units.

Fixing one, maybe two units might be doable, since you can just dump some stat boosters on them (though you only get so many), but ..an entire army of "questionable" units is not going to work, especially on the higher difficulties or what not (Not using tanks on Nohr? Going to get overwhelmed)

On an efficiency run..I think you might end up sacking half or more of the game.

That's disappointing. I was dedicated to using Odin and Lazward in their base classes in my top 12, as well as Luna as a filler. I guess I'll have to play on Normal to use all three of them or bench at least two of them.

[CocoaGalaxy]

I'm still crunching numbers in general, I'll see if I can get back to you on them..it'll take awhile though (and this is not even considering the "endless possibilities" of reclassing)

I've just finished Samurai/Trueblade/Weapon Master

Hana

Hinata

Kaze

Subaki

Saizou

Odin

Ryoma

Only for 10/0, 20/1 (20/4 for Ryoma because that's that) Trueblade, 20/20 Trueblade, and 20/20 Weapon Master

Sometimes the in between numbers matter a bit more, but I'm not sure what I can do about that

"I suppose on the bright side, Odin and Lazward have good luck so......you have about 5-10 more avoid than the other characters?"

(Preliminary analysis shows that Luna beats Lazward in speed and defense, so he's going to have his work cut out for him)

Update:

It really all depends on what you expect

If you're like me and you expect every unit to have 35 speed, well then that might be a bit much

I should count the number of units that hit 20/25/30/35 in stats. Very few units hit 40 (Effie's strength and Benoit's defense are the few that come to mind, assuming I'm correct.)

Most units will have 40 hp, some in the 50 (also depends on class since some classes boost hp by like, 5) and others will have 30.

Then you have more "extreme" characters with like 10 Defense or 25 HP (cough Azura cough)

Update 2:

[[You know what, I'm just going to make another document just for this. Like looking at 35 rows of numbers 10 columns long is pretty mind boggling as is, much less....]]

Edited September 22, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[gayserbeam]

Man, now that I actually looked at it, I'd forgotten just how bad Hinata and Subaki's speed growths are (15% and 20%...really game this is just...)

(Orochi also has 15 speed growth, for what it's worth. The only other character with a speed growth this bad on Hoshido is Yukimura, which I don't really bother with since he is a my castle character, and I don't really know much about them.)

All the other Hoshidan characters have at least a 40% speed growth bar Saizou (who has 30), so really, it's just...."so bad"

(The slowest Nohrian is, of course, Benoit with 10%. Every other Nohrian has at least 30)

The "interesting" thing to note is that I believe the averages are actually the same for both sides

Though in Hoshido, most of the characters (as I said above) have 40-50ish speed growth, while for Nohr, it's a bit more split between the 30/35, and the 50/55 growth characters (only Leo and Luna have a 45 speed growth, and nobody has a 40 speed growth)

In Hoshido, only Hana (55), Setsuna (60), Kagerou (50) and...Crimson (50) have a speed growth of 50 or higher. Everyone else is 40 or 45 really.

The shared characters are pretty fast for what it's worth..somewhat.

Anyway, my main qualm with Setsuna is that her strength is really not very good (it's really..low. I'll get the numbers later I suppose)

Her defense isn't very good either, but it seems not everyone cares nearly as much about defense

Her only saving grace is that her speed is through the roof, and at least that will help her a fair bit, though bowfaire is pretty far away, so she only really has Prescient Victory for a long time

The thing that saves Setsuna and Zero is their weapon type and their SPD. They never need to kill in one hit as they usually can't be counterattacked, it's easy for them to set up attack stance, and Yumi and Bows have the highest and third-highest might of any weapon type, respectively.

The usual rule that applies in Fates is:

If a character uses Kunai or Shuriken, subtract 2 from their strength for a more reasonable estimate of their power.

If a character uses Yumi or Axes, add 2 to their strength for a more reasonable estimate of their power.

With Yumi and Prescience, Setsuna practically has +6 STR all the time. Compare her to Kagerou and Hana, who have huge STR and comparable speed:

At level 20 unpromoted, Kagerou has about 21 STR, giving her 28 Attack Power with a Steel Shuriken (7 Mt).

At level 20 unpromoted, Hana has about 19 STR, giving her 28 Attack Power with a Steel Katana (9 Mt).

At level 20 unpromoted, Setsuna has about 12 STR, giving her 28 Attack Power with a Steel Yumi (12 Mt) and Prescience (+4 Mt).

Setsuna, Hana, and Kagerou all end up having equal Attack Power. In the end, weapon type is just as important as STR.

At 20/20:

At level 20 promoted (Elite Ninja), Kagerou has about 37 STR, giving her 49 Attack Power with a Steel Shuriken (7 Mt) and Kunaifaire (+5 STR).

At level 20 promoted (Trueblade), Hana has about 34 STR, giving her 48 Attack Power with a Steel Katana (9 Mt) and Swordfaire (+5 STR).

At level 20 promoted (Holy Bowman), Setsuna has about 22 STR, giving her 43 Attack Power with a Steel Yumi (12 Mt) and Prescience (+4 Mt) and Bowfaire (+5 STR).

Now if you were to argue that Mozume and Takumi were superior, I'd agree. However Setsuna is hardly a liability and damage is never a problem.

Edited September 22, 2015 by gayserbeam

[CocoaGalaxy]

It sounds all sorts of silly, but anyway, I've done the Hoshidan classes so far

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gCxf3Q20tdNr8V4ypw8dKDEpLNJf6e0lQJ-3SRvLcXw/edit?usp=sharing

I'll try to see if I can get this finished by tomorrow or so

(I still have the name chart to finish up)

There's a lot, a lot of...things, to do, so to speak

(Also the calculator I'm using is broken for Azura, so that's why her numbers are missing)

Some reclasses are fairly obvious, others less so.

I've not actually calculated 20/1 Elite Ninja Kagerou>Basara or 20/1 Nine Tailed Fox Nishiki>Basara, but...maybe in some time.

(The funny thing is that reclassing Kagerou earlier gives her more strength as she rams her strength cap quite fast...she'll still ram her strength cap in the end anyway)

In all honesty, I don't actually consider the class growths to be that important (they are "only" at 30 at max, and that's for special cases like Berserker). The class base stats though, are quite important (Basara has a 5 HP 5 Defense lead over Exorcist and loses practically nothing, well, aside from staff usage.)

Edited September 23, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[astrophys]

If you want to eventually account for 2nd gen personal growth rates, if you haven't already (I haven't read the doc yet), you should probably be aware that I'm quite consistently finding that the old Awakening formula of averaging both parents with the child doesn't seem to work; it seems to be just the variable parent and the child whose growths get averaged this time.

This link and the links form it detail my arguments.

http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=56509&p=4022111

Of course, 2nd gen bases are still important. And we still don't know how their initial stats get effected by their parents… but I think we've got their growths pretty much figured out by now.

[Tooru]

Killing units one by one is going to be an inefficient strategy most of the time.

You logic: Benoit's Def is high enough for more choices of tactics -> We don't need them all the time -> Benoit is bad.

Then we can say: Effie's Str is high enough to OHKO some enemies -> We can't and we don't need OHKO all the time -> Effie is bad.

What is your tactics for entering the building in Lunatic Nohr 23, actually? You must be 100% sure for not to restart and you must require less units, right? Since they are much better than Benoit.

Since most of them are much better units with less Str, less Skl, less Def, less Res, higher Spd but doubled by some enemies.

Edited September 23, 2015 by Tooru

[-Cynthia-]

You logic: Benoit's Def is high enough for more choices of tactics -> We don't need them all the time -> Benoit is bad.

Then we can say: Effie's Str is high enough to OHKO some enemies -> We can't and we don't need OHKO all the time -> Effie is bad.

What is your tactics for entering the building in Lunatic Nohr 23, actually? You must be 100% sure for not to restart and you must require less units, right? Since they are much better than Benoit.

Since most of them are much better units with less Str, less Skl, less Def, less Res, higher Spd but doubled by some enemies.

Benoit seems like a typical Knight/General to me- they trade Mov and doubling for a few points of Def which usually isn't a good tradeoff for efficient playthroughs. He doesn't even appear to have much of a durability lead(if any) over someone like Camilla or Leo who has a host of other advantages.

I haven't played the game, so I'll admit the possibility that there's something unique about Fates maps that makes him very useful but he seems outclassed.

Edited September 23, 2015 by -Cynthia-