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riolumaster
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For what it's worth someone I know who cleared Nohr Lunatic swears by both Generals. Efficient? Possibly not, but they're doing something right if they're reducing difficulty in a nogrind environment.

I mean hell bows in L+ by themselves aren't exactly efficient play (add galeforce and that's a different story), but they sure as fuck are reliable.

I'd rather see myself whether or not Benoit is good or not (since I mean, he's at least good at what his class's strong stats are, compared to a lot of the agreed-upon bad units), but I will be open to using him.

Edited by Thor Odinson
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The thing that saves Setsuna and Zero is their weapon type and their SPD. They never need to kill in one hit as they usually can't be counterattacked, it's easy for them to set up attack stance, and Yumi and Bows have the highest and third-highest might of any weapon type, respectively.

The usual rule that applies in Fates is:

If a character uses Kunai or Shuriken, subtract 2 from their strength for a more reasonable estimate of their power.

If a character uses Yumi or Axes, add 2 to their strength for a more reasonable estimate of their power.

With Yumi and Prescience, Setsuna practically has +6 STR all the time. Compare her to Kagerou and Hana, who have huge STR and comparable speed:

At level 20 unpromoted, Kagerou has about 21 STR, giving her 28 Attack Power with a Steel Shuriken (7 Mt).

At level 20 unpromoted, Hana has about 19 STR, giving her 28 Attack Power with a Steel Katana (9 Mt).

At level 20 unpromoted, Setsuna has about 12 STR, giving her 28 Attack Power with a Steel Yumi (12 Mt) and Prescience (+4 Mt).

Setsuna, Hana, and Kagerou all end up having equal Attack Power. In the end, weapon type is just as important as STR.

At 20/20:

At level 20 promoted (Elite Ninja), Kagerou has about 37 STR, giving her 49 Attack Power with a Steel Shuriken (7 Mt) and Kunaifaire (+5 STR).

At level 20 promoted (Trueblade), Hana has about 34 STR, giving her 48 Attack Power with a Steel Katana (9 Mt) and Swordfaire (+5 STR).

At level 20 promoted (Holy Bowman), Setsuna has about 22 STR, giving her 43 Attack Power with a Steel Yumi (12 Mt) and Prescience (+4 Mt) and Bowfaire (+5 STR).

Now if you were to argue that Mozume and Takumi were superior, I'd agree. However Setsuna is hardly a liability and damage is never a problem.

don't forget Weapon Rank Bonuses. so (assuming B Rank) +2 for Hana (17.4 Str in IK) for 30, +1 for Setsuna (she averages 13.95 Str in Hoshido and 15.15 in IK, not 12) for 31, and +2 for Kagerou (she caps at 20 Str as Ninja!) for 29.

at 20/20 S Rank, Hana (she caps at 31) Str gets +4 for 49, Setsuna's at +3 for 46, and Kagerou's (caps at 30) at +4 for 46

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don't forget Weapon Rank Bonuses. so (assuming B Rank) +2 for Hana (17.4 Str in IK) for 30, +1 for Setsuna (she averages 13.95 Str in Hoshido and 15.15 in IK, not 12) for 31, and +2 for Kagerou (she caps at 20 Str as Ninja!) for 29.

at 20/20 S Rank, Hana (she caps at 31) Str gets +4 for 49, Setsuna's at +3 for 46, and Kagerou's (caps at 30) at +4 for 46

Completely forgot about weapon bonuses. Thanks for that.

I ignored caps intentionally because of statues; my IK Kagerou has 36 STR and could potentially reach 39 if I had every Strength Statue at level 3. Although admittedly 37 is impossible in Hoshido without a +STR or -STR Avatar, so that was an oversight on my part.

Kind of all proved my point even harder, though. Setsuna is not at all at a distinct disadvantage.

Edited by gayserbeam
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Benoit seems like a typical Knight/General to me- they trade Mov and doubling for a few points of Def which usually isn't a good tradeoff for efficient playthroughs. He doesn't even appear to have much of a durability lead(if any) over someone like Camilla or Leo who has a host of other advantages.

I haven't played the game, so I'll admit the possibility that there's something unique about Fates maps that makes him very useful but he seems outclassed.

Camilla is the one with less Str/Skl/Lck/Def/(maybe Res) than Benoit.

Camilla is a fast unit, but some endgame enemies can still double her. There will be more doubling if she wields a Hand Axe for range-2 counter. They can't double Benoit, of course.

Benoit joins in Nohr chpater 13.

Chapter 14: Benoit is receiving 0 damage from some enemies but it is not useful now.

Chapter 15: Kamui's solo with his Yato-Gunter Yato-Night.

Chapter 16: Not friendly for Knights.

Chapter 17: Benoit > Effie for tanking because a lot enemies will not attack him with debuff/Snake Venom/Cut Through. Benoit has good Skl to deal with Ninjas' high avoids, and his personal skill helps our army. Of course we can use both, since a pairing-up of Knights is so useful here.

Chapter 18: We need to be fast. Effie > Benoit for much higher damage, but Benoit still have good Str among most units.

Chapter 19: Foxes with high Spd/Avo and Beastbane(+Pass). Generals are good tanks in this map, but Effie's hit rate will be a problem.

Chapter 20: A map for fliers and bowers.

Chapter 21: Using all your trained tanks makes this map efficient. There is no reason to consider who outclasses who.

Chapter 22: Offensive map, Effie > Benoit.

Chapter 23: There can be a unique use for Benoit. Sometimes Effie can do the same thing by pairing-up with a General: Benoit, or his son.

Chapter 24: I played it as an offensive map, Benoit < Effie <<<< Bow Knights.

Chapter 25: Different players has much different tactics. I need Generals on both sides at the beginning.

Chapter 26: Not friendly for Generals. Effie > Benoit, but I need both for my tactics.

Chapter 27: Effie > Benoit.

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Base level Bowman Mozume is a tonic away in each of her stats to match base Setsuna. Since she can use tonics in the C8 prep screen she can pretty much be another Setsuna with higher exp gain and much higher growths. Problem is there is only one parallel seal on the level 1 shop until you upgrade it to level 2 which is chapter 14 minimum so yeah. And a lot of other characters like the parallel seal.

Anyway for Hoshido it's Moz and probably Ricken. Tsubaki does well with a resource dump since he flies and has swallow strike. Hoshido Rinka has the highest availability in the game tied with Kaze to do stuff as well.

In Nohr it's Moz again and probably Odin. Odin is bad.

Edit: there is literally no point at which Benoit > Effie. Taking 0 damage is a bad thing because enemies ignore you. Benoit also has to rush to defensive formation (meaning instant promote meaning slow exp gain) whereas Effie is surprisingly fast enough to not get double by most generics in her unpromoted lifetime. Effie has what, a 7 or 8 chapter availability lead? Which is a support lead as well. It's easy to tie down Harold to Effie early on since no one else gains as much from that support except possibly Silas and Silas doesn't build supports with Harold. Who are you going to tie down to Benoit? Charlotte? Marx has what might as well be an exclusive all access pass to her reproductive organs. Anyone else like Silas or Belka or Zero would rather be point men than backing up Benoit. I will agree with you that late Nohr guts fast play pretty hard, but that's not a point in Benoit's favor; it just means all the characters that are already better than him can't rush ahead.

Edited by Ownagepuffs
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Base level Bowman Mozume is a tonic away in each of her stats to match base Setsuna. Since she can use tonics in the C8 prep screen she can pretty much be another Setsuna with higher exp gain and much higher growths. Problem is there is only one parallel seal on the level 1 shop until you upgrade it to level 2 which is chapter 14 minimum so yeah. And a lot of other characters like the parallel seal.

Anyway for Hoshido it's Moz and probably Ricken. Tsubaki does well with a resource dump since he flies and has swallow strike. Hoshido Rinka has the highest availability in the game tied with Kaze to do stuff as well.

In Nohr it's Moz again and probably Odin. Odin is bad.

Edit: there is literally no point at which Benoit > Effie. Taking 0 damage is a bad thing because enemies ignore you. Benoit also has to rush to defensive formation (meaning instant promote meaning slow exp gain) whereas Effie is surprisingly fast enough to not get double by most generics in her unpromoted lifetime. Effie has what, a 7 or 8 chapter availability lead? Which is a support lead as well. It's easy to tie down Harold to Effie early on since no one else gains as much from that support except possibly Silas and Silas doesn't build supports with Harold. Who are you going to tie down to Benoit? Charlotte? Marx has what might as well be an exclusive all access pass to her reproductive organs. Anyone else like Silas or Belka or Zero would rather be point men than backing up Benoit. I will agree with you that late Nohr guts fast play pretty hard, but that's not a point in Benoit's favor; it just means all the characters that are already better than him can't rush ahead.

You do think 3 < 1*2, 5 < 2*2, right? Benoit deals more and receives less damage than a lot good units, and you think he is bad because of this.

You are thinking about paring-up everyone when you want a fast play, interesting.

"Enemies ignore you" is not always bad.

Enemies don't ingore Effie, so they attack, debuff, Snake Venom and Cut Through her. She may be killed or waste your important staves, and being Cut Through means she can't protect other units.

Enemies ingore Benoit, so they are forced not to attack, even when it is possible for them to kill Benoit after a lot battles.

Edited by Tooru
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You see, Effie doesn't really give a shit if Ninjas attack her because an Effie you have been training will OHKO them from range with a Javelin and Negative chain doesn't appear until late. She doesn't really care about venom or cut through because those skills don't work if the enemy dies. The elite ninjas simply go from something silly like, 17RKOing her to 10RKOing her instead and regular ninjas still tink her if we're talking C17. Having enemies ignore you is bad because then it means they clutter up leaving you to deal with full HP enemies on the next player phase instead of dealing with ones weakened from a counter attack. It's the same awkward scenario as FE4 when enemies just choose to surround you instead of attack you. This can end up being super annoying in something like C19 where you pull the foxes without weakening or killing them since they chose not to attack. I had to turn Effie into a great knight to intentionally let them do non zero damage to her so that she could kill whichever ones chose to attack with a beastkiller. Of course the results were hilarious but that's besides the point.


This still doesn't take into account Effie's 6/7 chapter lead where she is actually useful compared to Benoit being just another dude especially with Leo, Flannel, and Xander coming up.

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You see, Effie doesn't really give a shit if Ninjas attack her because an Effie you have been training will OHKO them from range with a Javelin and Negative chain doesn't appear until late. She doesn't really care about venom or cut through because those skills don't work if the enemy dies. The elite ninjas simply go from something silly like, 17RKOing her to 10RKOing her instead and regular ninjas still tink her if we're talking C17. Having enemies ignore you is bad because then it means they clutter up leaving you to deal with full HP enemies on the next player phase instead of dealing with ones weakened from a counter attack. It's the same awkward scenario as FE4 when enemies just choose to surround you instead of attack you. This can end up being super annoying in something like C19 where you pull the foxes without weakening or killing them since they chose not to attack. I had to turn Effie into a great knight to intentionally let them do non zero damage to her so that she could kill whichever ones chose to attack with a beastkiller. Of course the results were hilarious but that's besides the point.
This still doesn't take into account Effie's 6/7 chapter lead where she is actually useful compared to Benoit being just another dude especially with Leo, Flannel, and Xander coming up.

Lunatic?

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Figures my two husbandos are like, being argued over which is worse lmao.

I made Virion work, i can make Tsubaki work. :U I just gotta effort is all. Im keeping an eye on this thread for more potential hints in how to make Bennie and Tsu-Tsu badass.

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Figures my two husbandos are like, being argued over which is worse lmao.

I made Virion work, i can make Tsubaki work. :U I just gotta effort is all. Im keeping an eye on this thread for more potential hints in how to make Bennie and Tsu-Tsu badass.

Well like someone said, maybe giving Tsubaki a stat booster or two could help him get along?

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Base level Bowman Mozume is a tonic away in each of her stats to match base Setsuna. Since she can use tonics in the C8 prep screen she can pretty much be another Setsuna with higher exp gain and much higher growths. Problem is there is only one parallel seal on the level 1 shop until you upgrade it to level 2 which is chapter 14 minimum so yeah. And a lot of other characters like the parallel seal.

...

In Nohr it's Moz again and probably Odin. Odin is bad.

Well, here's the thing about Mozume, if you decide to bench Mozume, then you are left with Zero as your only main bow user. And since you are going to face a lot of flying enemies ramming down your face, it's best to reclass Mozume as a Bowman. Besides, it's worthwhile to train Mozume anyways since she's your best lategame unit.

Also, you don't need to use the level 1 shop to get the Parallel Seal. If you have internet connection, you can surf through other players' My Castles for a level 3 shop (where you can get infinite Parallel Seals and other promotion items) to get Parallel Seals. I believe I asked about Parallel Seals in regards to shoping other players' shops and IIRC, someone mentions that if you visit a level 3 shop owned by another player while you have a level 1 shop at your own My Castle where the Parallel Seal is sold out, the other player's stock will be infinite for you if you visit their level 3 shop.

Anyways, back on topic. In regards to General vs. Great Knight they are both pretty tanky. The difference is that Great Knights have higher mobility, has better weapon triangle versatility, and more offensive power, while Generals have more defensive stats and have defensive skills. I personally find Great Knight to be better than General since you get to be a bit tanky and deal raw damage at the same time. However, Generals do have some useful skills such as Defensive Formation and Pavise. Another thing why I favor Great Knights over Generals is also due to far more mobility the Great Knight has over Generals.

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Well, here's the thing about Mozume, if you decide to bench Mozume, then you are left with Zero as your only main bow user. And since you are going to face a lot of flying enemies ramming down your face, it's best to reclass Mozume as a Bowman. Besides, it's worthwhile to train Mozume anyways since she's your best lategame unit.

Also, you don't need to use the level 1 shop to get the Parallel Seal. If you have internet connection, you can surf through other players' My Castles for a level 3 shop (where you can get infinite Parallel Seals and other promotion items) to get Parallel Seals. I believe I asked about Parallel Seals in regards to shoping other players' shops and IIRC, someone mentions that if you visit a level 3 shop owned by another player while you have a level 1 shop at your own My Castle where the Parallel Seal is sold out, the other player's stock will be infinite for you if you visit their level 3 shop.

Anyways, back on topic. In regards to General vs. Great Knight they are both pretty tanky. The difference is that Great Knights have higher mobility, has better weapon triangle versatility, and more offensive power, while Generals have more defensive stats and have defensive skills. I personally find Great Knight to be better than General since you get to be a bit tanky and deal raw damage at the same time. However, Generals do have some useful skills such as Defensive Formation and Pavise. Another thing why I favor Great Knights over Generals is also due to far more mobility the Great Knight has over Generals.

About the damage: Generals have higher stats in every stat except for Speed, which Great Knight has a 2 point lead in caps and a 3 point lead at base. Both are awfully slow, though.

The benefit of Great Knight is the extra 2 move, swords and Luna, but as a final class, I'd always choose a general with Boots over a Great Knight.

Great Knights also have both armour and beast status which means you'll be seeing a lot of those red caution bubbles.

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That just put a thought in my head… imagine if there was a flying pegasus (beat) type unit…. that was armored… and then you classed Kamui into it… 4 weaknesses [flier, beast, armored, dragon].

Dark Knights have a awfully low speed stat, I observe… the Avatar might be able to make better use of it with a Yato that carries +2 Spd/+4 Spd.

A quick draw Katanna or Horse God could help a bit for other units, but really, I'd argue that the Avatar is much better suited to it than others [clarification: other characters are], even more so than for other classes. Edit: Not that its his best class; just that he can pull it off. I think… although this is all theory craft on my part, no experience.

Edited by astrophys
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This is just theory, but couldn't Tsubaki be good at chipping? With skills like Perfectionist + Flowing Strike (Avoid and hit is high) as well as line of death (+10 damage when entering battle I believe) and astra (high skill and means multiple hit with range weapons) couldn't Tsubaki be used well on the player phase? Could he be used as a spear thrower who deals damage efficiently? (BTW i do realise he is a bit outclassed by Ryouma and his sweg sword). Do you think this build is viable?

Tsubaki - Falcon Warrior

Perfectionist (Personal)

Astra

Line of Death

Flowing Strike

Filler Skill

Filler Skill

I also haven't played the game and haven't taken in marriage/buddying into consideration.

But Sol could be used to keep him on high hp.

Also, any thoughts on Lazward and his strengths and weaknesses? He's my favourite of the three.

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Could he be used as a spear thrower who deals damage efficiently?

Well, the Hoshido route largely doesn't have spears (they have throwing swords and I think Silas' Javelin), but they do have Shinrai Naginata [a 1-2 range Shockstick magic weapon, basically]. And Tsubaki does have a 20% magic growth… although he doesn't have much in the way of base magic either. But hey, they're C-rank weapons, don't make it difficult to double, and have 11 Might striking resist.

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Subaki's niche is Javelins and Spears. Their weakness is lower accuracy and inability to double; Subaki won't be doubling anything anyway and his passive gives him bonus accuracy. Their range keeps him off the front line, so he keeps his passive bonus up longer, and his survivability and the passive's evasion might help him survive if you mess up and he gets targeted. He also has pretty good MAG growth for a fighter, so he can use staffs both adeptly and safely from his ranged position.

Also Subaki has great SKL, so Astra should proc quite nicely on him. Javelins and Shinrai Naginata prevent skill procs, but Spears don't.

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A Knight Effie OHKO Elite Ninjas and Puppeteers with no miss in Lunatic, and saved Saizou?

Oh, the hit rates were certainly shaky. She was sitting on approx 75% displayed. Marx also OHKOd them but he was sitting on even lower hit rates due to WTD (~51% displayed). Camilia OHKO'd unpromoted Ninjas with a hand axe but the promoted ones gave her a lot of trouble. She was able to ORKO promoted Ninjas at 1 range with a steel Axe Forge tho. Effie also promoted to General in this map to get Formation then sealed to Great Knight after getting it. She was effectively a second Marx from that point onward. Saving Saizou is easy. For one, Saizou is ridiculously powerful as an NPC as he 2RKOs everything on the map, has snake venom, and can't be debuffed or sapped due to status immunity. Second, he prioritizes removing traps over attacking so you don't have to worry about him running off. It's good to give him some backup though since he can get overwhelmed. He's also really helpful at taking out the boss, who is legitimately one of the most terribly designed bosses in the series. He's like H5 Hyman/Gazzak but with debuffs and FE6 throne bonus and higher avoid due to his class.

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Oh, the hit rates were certainly shaky. She was sitting on approx 75% displayed. Marx also OHKOd them but he was sitting on even lower hit rates due to WTD (~51% displayed). Camilia OHKO'd unpromoted Ninjas with a hand axe but the promoted ones gave her a lot of trouble. She was able to ORKO promoted Ninjas at 1 range with a steel Axe Forge tho. Effie also promoted to General in this map to get Formation then sealed to Great Knight after getting it. She was effectively a second Marx from that point onward. Saving Saizou is easy. For one, Saizou is ridiculously powerful as an NPC as he 2RKOs everything on the map, has snake venom, and can't be debuffed or sapped due to status immunity. Second, he prioritizes removing traps over attacking so you don't have to worry about him running off. It's good to give him some backup though since he can get overwhelmed. He's also really helpful at taking out the boss, who is legitimately one of the most terribly designed bosses in the series. He's like H5 Hyman/Gazzak but with debuffs and FE6 throne bonus and higher avoid due to his class.

Effie promoted in this map and reached C-rank on Axes?

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p sure he's talking about camilla

OMG I didn't notice that he talked about Camilla so much.

So Effie is good because we can use Camilla a lot in this map.

Benoit is bad because he can help us reach the goal without those pre-promoted units and without basing on RNG too much.

Edited by Tooru
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I don't think that was the point, rather he was just talking about notable people that contributed that chapter

I mean also, fwiw, Effie matches Benoit's base str as early as level 9 on average (80% growth after Knight bonuses; 3 levels puts her at 2.4 str gained on average, 13 base str, Benoit has 15) and has a 20% growth lead on him, in addition to her personal skill that piles on more damage if she has higher str

So unless she's not trained or royally screwed single-hit damage should not be an issue for her

Edited by Thor Odinson
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I don't think that was the point, rather he was just talking about notable people that contributed that chapter

I mean also, fwiw, Effie matches Benoit's base str as early as level 9 on average (80% growth after Knight bonuses; 3 levels puts her at 2.4 str gained on average, 13 base str, Benoit has 15) and has a 20% growth lead on him, in addition to her personal skill that piles on more damage if she has higher str

So unless she's not trained or royally screwed single-hit damage should not be an issue for her

You don't need to mention these because nobody is saying that Effie is bad.

Of cause Effie deals much more damage than Benoit when they are at the same level, and Benoit deals more damage than some other units that said to be good.

Do those mentioned units just notable? Or they are so good that we can easily beat the map with them even when somebody else takes Effie's place?

Marx + Camilla + Effie + units that not notable can beat chapter 17 easily-> Effie is good.

Benoit + units that not notable (no Marx, no Camilla) can beat chapter 17 easily-> Benoit is bad.

It seems that I should choose Marx + Camilla but not trigger battles by them (so I don't need to change my tactics) . It will be: Marx + Camilla + Benoit + units that not notable can beat chapter 17 easily-> Benoit is good.

Edited by Tooru
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honestly at this point i don't even know what you're talking about anymore.

for the record I don't actually insist one way or the other on Benoit since I haven't seen him in action, but some of your questions are really...aggressive, no

Benoit joins in chapter 13 at level 15 Knight, which means that even if you insta-promote him then, he'd still have to go 5 levels without defensive formation. Some people's cool with that, but for others it might be a little harder to stomach. It really depends on if someone can stomach getting him those 5-10 levels without defensive formation. I've heard pretty mixed things about the guy, honestly.

Obviously he's solid after getting to ??/5 but there's still getting there

I'm open to using him honestly the guy's a bear whisperer and really cute as a person but I also think it's important to understand he may not be very useful for people with more aggressive playstyles, since unlike effie he joins at a time when you have more people in your party and doesn't really need to rely on him much, thus the effort he needs to be up and running may not be worth it to people with more aggressive play styles.

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