Worst Units and Classes

[CocoaGalaxy]

Stuff, shenanigans, who knows

It's really "too complicated" and what not to tell, at the very least, I'd need more numbers (cough enemy numbers cough) before speaking, so to say

In other news, I "completed" (by which I mean, for all that I care anyway, I'm not going to go and have numbers for the other characters) my averages list, but it really can only tell you so much

I suppose it's still fairly helpful, in my opinion anyway, for evaluating. Somewhat...somewhat...

Averages by Class

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1gCxf3Q20tdNr8V4ypw8dKDEpLNJf6e0lQJ-3SRvLcXw/edit?usp=sharing

Averages by Character

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1RWF-rNmpdehX4ZTIgbSpKxcQLFmPKp5YcAfxeDFWsqE/edit?usp=sharing

"Until we know", it really all depends on what you expect your characters to have

Some of the "broken" characters do have 30 Str/Spd/Def or values "near" it anyway, but who knows.

Why am I posting this here? Who knows as well.

Edited September 24, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[Dark Paladin X]

honestly at this point i don't even know what you're talking about anymore.

for the record I don't actually insist one way or the other on Benoit since I haven't seen him in action, but some of your questions are really...aggressive, no

Benoit joins in chapter 13 at level 15 Knight, which means that even if you insta-promote him then, he'd still have to go 5 levels without defensive formation. Some people's cool with that, but for others it might be a little harder to stomach. It really depends on if someone can stomach getting him those 5-10 levels without defensive formation. I've heard pretty mixed things about the guy, honestly.

Obviously he's solid after getting to ??/5 but there's still getting there

I'm open to using him honestly the guy's a bear whisperer and really cute as a person but I also think it's important to understand he may not be very useful for people with more aggressive playstyles, since unlike effie he joins at a time when you have more people in your party and doesn't really need to rely on him much, thus the effort he needs to be up and running may not be worth it to people with more aggressive play styles.

The difference between Benolt and Effie is that Benolt is fallout tank while Effie growth rates are more like a flatout bruiser. The difference is that Effie joins you earlier and you have much room to level her up while Benolt joints later where many of your units are at equal level or higher than him. Benolt is mostly useful in maps that requires more defensive playstyles while Effie is more useful in maps where you need to blow nooblords up ASAP.

And speaking of someone who said Effie is OP:

[spoiler=Invisible History related]Has anyone tried reclassing Effie as a Samurai/Trueblade via Buddy Support with Hana? How does Effie fare as a Trueblade when compared to her as a General in the Nohr route? Because for some reason, I personally prefer Swordmaster type classes over Knights in Fire Emblem games for Strength and Speed stats and Effie is noted to have reasonably high speed stat in addition to her ridiculous strength.

[CocoaGalaxy]

Depending on what you look for

20/1 Trueblade Effie (reclassed immediately)

28 HP, 20 Strength, 22 Speed, 13 Defense

20/20 Trueblade Effie

36 HP, 33 Strength, 36 Speed, 20 Defense

[Ownagepuffs]

Benolt is mostly useful in maps that requires more defensive playstyles while Effie is more useful in maps where you need to blow nooblords up ASAP.

I don't even think Benny is bad. My point is that there are exactly zero scenarios where he's better than Effie because her durability is "high enough" 9/10 times and her offense is better forever.

[Tooru]

honestly at this point i don't even know what you're talking about anymore.

for the record I don't actually insist one way or the other on Benoit since I haven't seen him in action, but some of your questions are really...aggressive, no

Benoit joins in chapter 13 at level 15 Knight, which means that even if you insta-promote him then, he'd still have to go 5 levels without defensive formation. Some people's cool with that, but for others it might be a little harder to stomach. It really depends on if someone can stomach getting him those 5-10 levels without defensive formation. I've heard pretty mixed things about the guy, honestly.

Obviously he's solid after getting to ??/5 but there's still getting there

I'm open to using him honestly the guy's a bear whisperer and really cute as a person but I also think it's important to understand he may not be very useful for people with more aggressive playstyles, since unlike effie he joins at a time when you have more people in your party and doesn't really need to rely on him much, thus the effort he needs to be up and running may not be worth it to people with more aggressive play styles.

Why do you care about being doubled, when Benoit still receives less total damage?

Does "aggressive playstyles" mean "Effie*15"? If not all units are Effies, you have to use a lot units with less Str than Benoit.

You deal less damage per battle, stay further to a group of enemies, trigger less battles in enemy phase, and you playstyle is... Aggressive?

I don't even think Benny is bad. My point is that there are exactly zero scenarios where he's better than Effie because her durability is "high enough" 9/10 times and her offense is better forever.

Then why not use both? You will have a enough durability 9/10 times with another enough durability 10/10 times, and a better offense with a worse offense but still good enough among all.

Effie's Def ~ Benoit's Str, Effie's Str ~ Benoit's Def. You are saying Benoit is offensive enough to say "her durability is high enough".

Edited September 24, 2015 by Tooru

[Thor Odinson]

You know instead of being condescending about it why don't you provide actual data

Hard numbers would be a lot more effective than getting your point across

Maybe it's because I'm just used to high numbers, but I have a hard time believing enemies have only ~22atk or so on a Lunatic mode but you're welcome to provide enemy stats in chapter 13 and how Benoit matches up with those

I'm open to Benoit being really good, and hell I want him to be good, but it would be a lot more useful if you gave some actual numbers instead of being really aggressive about it

Edited September 24, 2015 by Thor Odinson

[CocoaGalaxy]

Just rolling in here to casually mention to anyone who doesn't know or so....for what it's worth anyway (I have no idea)

From what (little) I know about the exp formula, it is "blatantly impossible" to be more than 5 levels higher.

If you kill an enemy which is 5 levels below you, you get 1 exp

(Or something like that anyway)

Not so sure about the inbetweens though

It's hard to tell just "how many" reinforcements there are in the maps

"I am working on the numbers, just..maybe not the lunatic ones"

For anyone who is interested, I'm currently (only up to Hoshido 9 for N/H/L info, but I have everything else ready, "it's just a matter of time before they go up")

Edited September 24, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[Ownagepuffs]

I mean, enemy stats are the same on HM and LM with the only difference being weapon rank (meaning 1 of 2 Atk extra for each enemy) so you can check something like Omegaevolution's playthrough if you want stats.

[CocoaGalaxy]

I roughly know, but I'd try my best not to overly assume

That being said, I am going through them for now....so it'll take some time before I reach Nohr

[Tooru]

You know instead of being condescending about it why don't you provide actual data

Hard numbers would be a lot more effective than getting your point across

Maybe it's because I'm just used to high numbers, but I have a hard time believing enemies have only ~22atk or so on a Lunatic mode but you're welcome to provide enemy stats in chapter 13 and how Benoit matches up with those

I'm open to Benoit being really good, and hell I want him to be good, but it would be a lot more useful if you gave some actual numbers instead of being really aggressive about it

Benoit's Str: 15 + 24*0.6 + 3 = 32.2

Skl 15 + 24*0.65 + 2 = 32.6 (maximum is 32)

Def 19(+2) + 24*0.75 + 4 = 41(+2)

Also Res: 10 + 5*0.5 + 19*0.45 +2 = 23.05

I have mentioned too many times that Benoit has higher numbers on most stats than many good units (expectations, or even maximum stats).

But they just complain about his "not receiving damage" and "being doubled". Not receiving damage and being doubled and we should give him Defensive Formation has soon as possible.

Edited September 24, 2015 by Tooru

[Thor Odinson]

20/20 stats is not what I'm looking for here, though. I'm looking for his jointime performance rather than later-on performance. It's obvious that he will be good if you put the exp into him and get him to 15-20/5 or whatever.

That's why I was asking for chapter 13 enemy stats and atk in comparison to his bases, not whatever his expected values at 20/20 are.

[~Silver]

We're talkin' about characters, but uhh

What about classes

[CocoaGalaxy]

The Magic Classes are pretty much sub par compared to the physical classes

Statistically, the best magic classes are like mixed ones (Shura, Basara, though it maaaay or may not have something to do with the fact that it's because of the characters who actually get those classes)

Of course this is just my opinion

"And Falco and Golden Kite suck"

The rest of the classes have their own stuff, but since I prefer fast classes, I dislike Great Merchant (It's pretty dang slow......that or well, you know, characters)

Combat wise, Maid/Butlers, and well, most of the classes with a staff (save like White Blood) aren't really as combat worthy as the others

...Maybe it's just me or bias, but Adventurer and Bow Knight are a bit eh as well.

I'd rant a bit more but it's kind of like a sliding scale and I'd end up ranting all the way to the top classes

There isn't really any classes that are awesome at everything by default (save Dark/White Blood, and even then you can argue it's Kamui rather than the class itself)

...Well, unless you're a magic user, the "pure" classes are usually better (Holy Lancer vs Basara, Wyvern Lord vs Revenant Knight, that is)

There's really not much reason to be a Revenant Knight unless you really want to use magic (and few characters can use both strength and magic anyway. The silly Revenant Knight Elise is really just to boost her Defense)

On another note, it's probably going to take me a week or two, possibly more, to try and scrape together the rest of the information.

I'm currently missing most of Hoshido and Nohr Lunatic, Invisible Kingdom 27 and Endgame Normal, and Invisible Kingdom 18+ Lunatic really, so the rest is just a matter of time

Edited September 24, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[Tooru]

Golden-Kites have 8-movement and range-2 weapons, so they will be the first one to trigger battles.

Golden-Kites force PvP builds to think about how to survive from their attacks: easy for Generals so they are popular too.

[GoXDS]

Golden-Kites have 8-movement and range-2 weapons, so they will be the first one to trigger battles.

Golden-Kites force PvP builds to think about how to survive from their attacks: easy for Generals so they are popular too.

there's plenty of other 8 Move units like Wyvern Lord, Falcon Warrior, and also some with 2 range as well, namely Dark Knight and Bow Knight. both Dark Knight and Bow Knight have better stats. eg. Dark Knight 31 Mag and 5 Mt Snake God and 27+1 Spd and 55 HP and 34 Def and 30+1 Res while Bow Knight is 29 Str with 8 Mt Mighty Bow, 33 Spd, 55 HP, 27 Def 32 Res. GKW is at only 27 Str and 8 Mt with 31 Spd, 50 HP, 25 Def, 31 Res. Dark Knight has 36 Atk (targetting enemy's Res, which is likely lower, especially Generals) and more bulk and 1-2 range (but yes, lower Spd), while Bow Knight is 37 Atk, more Spd, more bulk, all to GKW's 35 Atk and lower bulk and average Spd.

movement isn't even as big a deal as you might expect either because Units are not stand-alone. you can easily pair up a Holy Bowman with an 8-movement Unit and that would be much, much better. Flight also doesn't matter most of the time (and also means not benefitting from Terrain anyways), especially with Takumi as Holy Bowman

anyways, "force PvP builds to think about how to survive". GKW has 35 Atk +3 from Weapon Rank. let's just assume Hero with Axe for neutral Triangle. 60 HP and 30 Def. even with Swallow Strike (GKW's 1 Spd short normally for this to matter), that's (38-30)*4 = 32 dmg only so you need 2 Skill triggers. if the Hero had Sword equipped like it should, that'd be (34-30)*4 = 16. in this second case, even 2 Breaking Sky (which should have ~50% activation) would only amount to 48 dmg

[CocoaGalaxy]

It's taking me about 30 minutes per map/chapter (10 per difficulty) so you can expect me to be finished in ...I dunno.

Even if I spend something ludicrous like 10 hours a day on this it'd only be finished in 3 days, and I kind of doubt that

I'll see what I can do anyway

In the mean time, let's look at some things, namely, I just finished Invisible Kingdom Chapter 9, and oh boy...no wonder people got game overs in this chapter

Enemy Data (Lunatic)

Ninja: 27 HP, 15 ATK, 14 AS, 10 DEF

Lance Fighter: 28 HP, 22 ATK, 11 AS, 14 DEF

Oni Savage: 31 HP, 22 ATK, 9 AS, 15 DEF

Bowman: 28 HP, 24 ATK, 10 AS, 12 DEF

Samurai: 29 HP, 20 ATK, 16 AS, 9 DEF

Enemies are about Level 7/8. Let's look at our "new" units

Level 4 Hana (Iron Katana): 20 HP, 13 ATK, 12 SPD, 5 DEF

Level 5 Subaki (Iron Naginata): 22 HP, 14 ATK, 10 SPD, 10 DEF @ Swallow Strike

While you could make an argument that they're underleveled, even at, say, Level 10

Level 10 Hana (Iron Katana): 21 HP, 16 ATK, 15 SPD, 6 DEF

Level 10 Subaki (Iron Naginata): 24 HP, 16 ATK, 11 SPD, 12 DEF

Doesn't look very good really

Even (my) Kamui (+Spd/-Luck), let's say Level 15

Level 15 Kamui (+Spd/-Luck) (Yato): 27 HP, 23 ATK, 18 SPD, 11 DEF

Level 15 Mozume (Iron Naginata): 23 HP, 20 ATK, 17 SPD, 12 DEF

Doesn't look very good if you ask me

(Honestly speaking, who knows. "At least", the Lunatic runs I've seen haven't been strolls in the park, not that Normal/Hard is (always) a stroll in the park either)

(Off topic rambling: Invisible Kingdom Chapter 10...sigh, what a pain)

Update:

Well "it just occurred to me" that I haven't actually shared this, oh well

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uvPG5IV4rhjwzTaK54pNTKCMauHJ9TXa1Sr6GPzA6lc/edit?pli=1#gid=0

Edited September 24, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[Tooru]

there's plenty of other 8 Move units like Wyvern Lord, Falcon Warrior, and also some with 2 range as well, namely Dark Knight and Bow Knight. both Dark Knight and Bow Knight have better stats. eg. Dark Knight 31 Mag and 5 Mt Snake God and 27+1 Spd and 55 HP and 34 Def and 30+1 Res while Bow Knight is 29 Str with 8 Mt Mighty Bow, 33 Spd, 55 HP, 27 Def 32 Res. GKW is at only 27 Str and 8 Mt with 31 Spd, 50 HP, 25 Def, 31 Res. Dark Knight has 36 Atk (targetting enemy's Res, which is likely lower, especially Generals) and more bulk and 1-2 range (but yes, lower Spd), while Bow Knight is 37 Atk, more Spd, more bulk, all to GKW's 35 Atk and lower bulk and average Spd.

movement isn't even as big a deal as you might expect either because Units are not stand-alone. you can easily pair up a Holy Bowman with an 8-movement Unit and that would be much, much better. Flight also doesn't matter most of the time (and also means not benefitting from Terrain anyways), especially with Takumi as Holy Bowman

anyways, "force PvP builds to think about how to survive". GKW has 35 Atk +3 from Weapon Rank. let's just assume Hero with Axe for neutral Triangle. 60 HP and 30 Def. even with Swallow Strike (GKW's 1 Spd short normally for this to matter), that's (38-30)*4 = 32 dmg only so you need 2 Skill triggers. if the Hero had Sword equipped like it should, that'd be (34-30)*4 = 16. in this second case, even 2 Breaking Sky (which should have ~50% activation) would only amount to 48 dmg

Thank you for the calculating.

So the damage is about 32/16 with only Swallow Strike.

+10*4 from Extravagance or Line of Death

+7*4 from Aggressor

+5*4 from Bowfaire

Choose what you like and you can OHKO a Brave Hero now.

Why the Breaking Sky should have only 50%?

Edited September 24, 2015 by Tooru

[Duke of Dozel]

Can Hinata be a serious contender for worst unit in the game?

[CocoaGalaxy]

It all depends on what criteria you base on and what you value really

Some players don't like squishy units, so Hana, Nyx, would be less valuable to them than Hinata, Subaki

Other players (like me) don't like slow units, so Hinata, Subaki, Benoit, Orochi, wouldn't be good enough

Other player's don't like units that are "overly balanced", like Arthur, etc

[GoXDS]

Thank you for the calculating.

So the damage is about 32/16 with only Swallow Strike.

+10*4 from Extravagance or Line of Death

+7*4 from Aggressor

+5*4 from Bowfaire

Choose what you like and you can OHKO a Brave Hero now.

Why the Breaking Sky should have only 50%?

33 Skl before mods, so that's 49.5%. anyways, there's better units for this set and as I've already pointed out you're short 1 Spd from doubling anyways

[astrophys]

Enemy Data (Lunatic)

Ninja: 27 HP, 15 ATK, 14 AS, 10 DEF

Lance Fighter: 28 HP, 22 ATK, 11 AS, 14 DEF

Oni Savage: 31 HP, 22 ATK, 9 AS, 15 DEF

Bowman: 28 HP, 24 ATK, 10 AS, 12 DEF

Samurai: 29 HP, 20 ATK, 16 AS, 9 DEF

Out of curiosity, I checked out the Hard/Classic version under omegaevolution's playthrough to determine what kind of difference there is.

Source:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ljLh0jlRW2s

Stats:

Changes to RES are not know to me as the earlier post didn't list them.

Ninja: 24 Hp, 14 Atk, 8 Def, 6 Res, 14 Spd [-3 HP, -1 Atk, -2 Def]

Lance Fighter: 25 HP, 20 Atk, 12 Def, 5 Res, 10 Spd [-3 HP, -2 Atk, -2 Def, -1 Spd]

Oni Savage: 28 HP, 20 Atk, 13 Def, 3 Res, 8 Spd [-3 HP, -2 Atk, -2 Def, -1 Spd]

Bowman: 25 HP, 22 Atk, 10 Def, 5 Res, 9 Spd [-3 Hp, -2 Atk, -1 Spd, -2 Def]

Samurai: 26 HP, 18 Atk, 7 Def, 5 Res, 15 Spd, [-3 HP. -2 Atk, -2 Def, -1 Spd]

So, quite commonly, the upgrade from Hard to Lunatic for this chapter is around +3 HP, +2 Atk, +2 Def, +1 Spd. These aren't universal, but often applies.

[CocoaGalaxy]

I actually already did those

But sure

For example, in Hoshido 7-9

Normal>Hard

Adds about 50-100% of initial unit count

+2 Strength/Magic, +1 Weapon Rank

+2 Defense (Knights only)

+Some weapons (maybe, maybe not)

Hard>Lunatic

Adds about 50-100% of initial unit count on top of Hard (so it's about 200-300% enemies)

+3 HP, +1 Weapon Rank

In Invisible Kingdom 7, the trend was +HP +STR + DEF

In 8 and 9 they also added SPD

I'm still working on 10

Well who knows, but it's "fairly obvious" that "synthetically", there's a bigger difficulty jump from Normal>Hard than Hard>Lunatic, unlike in FE13 it would seem

Edited September 25, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[astrophys]

Interesting….. in any event, I'm planning to do my initial runs on Hard, perhaps moving up to Lunatic after getting more experienced with the game.

But the Lunatic information is good to know.

[Tooru]

33 Skl before mods, so that's 49.5%. anyways, there's better units for this set and as I've already pointed out you're short 1 Spd from doubling anyways

15% from Flamboyant, 10% from Hoshido, and chance to trigger skills.

Golden-kites will not only have 31 Spd and 33 Skl. With the same modifiers a Hero is still faster, and that is so-called "thinking about how to survive from their attacks".

[Ownagepuffs]

Can Hinata be a serious contender for worst unit in the game?

Hell no. His bases are surprisingly strong even though his growths are not. He can do some stuff with instant promotion as well if you're into that sorta thing.

It's pretty much Moz or Ricken/Orochi if you're talking Hoshido.