Issues with the Nohr path story line?

[Karnanii]

I've been hearing almost everywhere that the Nohr path's story needs an extreme rewrite, but I haven't really seen any thing to back this up or at least say whats wrong with it in detail.

From what I've seen from the translated play through videos (which then again might not show the best representation of the actual plot) I haven't really seen any major issues. So I was wondering if anyone could just update me on what exactly are these extremely flawed plot points?

[NekoKnight]

This topic is your friend.

The gist of the problems are:

-There is practically no reason to side with Nohr

-The villains are underdeveloped and are just evil for the sake of being evil

-Nohr!Kamui doesn't do much to stop his evil bosses from doing evil things.

-Kamui regrets not siding with Hoshido if you side with Nohr

-Plot contrivances like the Crystal Ball and Magic Throne

-Aqua could have avoided the problems in Nohr had she bothered to communicate some critical information to Kamui and the other royal siblings.

Edited October 2, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Jisdo]

-Kamui regrets not siding with Hoshido if you side with Nohr

Woah, seriously? I'm really considering skipping the whole Nohr story if I actually get to play this route now.

[blinkingbrave]

I'm reading through a translation right now, and I haven't come across too many things that stand out to me either. Beyond Garon lacking much motivation (or it not being elaborated on. you can kinda infer a few probable reasons) for taking Kamui in the first place, I haven't come across too much. It might just depend on what you look for in a story. The characters are better than usual in my opinion, and I tend to glaze over when lore/nitty-gritty war stuff comes up, so maybe that's where the issues lie?

Story issues are pretty opinionated, and how much they affect the story is a similar matter. It's all about where you look. I actually hadn't even realized people had issues with the plot til I hopped on this forum. Tumblr and AO3 are generally chill about it. Game's not even localized, and there are already some hella detailed character analyses out there.

I saw a whole thread for issues a lil further down. Maybe they can help?

Edit: It could also just be recency + hype/directional backlash. Some of the older plots haven't exactly been winners, but since it's not really relevant atm, no one's bringing up FE4's miserable pacing and narration or FE7's decision to lock the Nergal mess behind a gaiden only accessible on your second playthrough. Certain issues, like plot contrivances and crummy villains, are just series wide problems.

Edited October 2, 2015 by blinkingbrave

[Mighty Kamina]

Woah, seriously? I'm really considering skipping the whole Nohr story if I actually get to play this route now.

Seeing how this comes after Kamui fails to prevent a whole town being slaughtered, and then a man hunt for somebody else that would have likely caused a lot of deaths if Leon hadn't come up with a way to trick Garon, this is somewhat justified.

This topic is your friend.

The gist of the problems are:

-There is practically no reason to side with Nohr

-The villains are underdeveloped and are just evil for the sake of being evil

-Nohr!Kamui doesn't do much to stop his evil bosses from doing evil things.

-Kamui regrets not siding with Hoshido if you side with Nohr

-Plot contrivances like the Crystal Ball and Magic Throne

-Aqua could have avoided the problems in Nohr had she bothered to communicate some critical information to Kamui and the other royal siblings.

1: When confronted about why he would ever side with Nohr by Ryouma, Kamui responds with "I can't abandon the people who have supported me throughout my whole life." It's a selfish choice.

2: Nohr Kamui gets overruled when trying to stop his bosses from killing people. He doesn't outrank them, and ditching Nohr would be against the whole reason they side with Nohr. To help the people they care about. It's likely they wouldn't be welcome in Hoshido at that point either.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[Alazen]

Conquest is too busy stroking Kamui off to really do the premise of reforming an unruly kingdom properly.

On Earth, rebellions have a habit of snowballing to the point of you ordering to take down reactionary civilians or loyalist soldiers who aren't baby eaters. On the flip-side, rebels that successfully go to war against a ruler have a history of being led or organized by shady characters.

In Fatesland, you have shining paragon Kamui with his sidekicks against cartoon villains Garon and Ganz with Macbeth. Kamui is repeatedly excused or backed up for what he does. Aqua is a shoddy character who serves to spew exposition, point where to go, and pull out junk to push the cast along to whatever they're supposed to be in the narrative.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Alazen

[CocoaGalaxy]

For starters, I will admit that, yes, I am kind of disappointed in the story

Realistically speaking, I would say they could have written a better story

There are a few "issues" so to speak, with writing a better story

(1): If the story is "too" good, then people would be inclined to "buy nohr", which would sort of defeat the balance between the two games

(2): The story has to make sense with hoshido as well, so they have to write both routes together

(3): It's kind of the same, but the story has to make sense with invisible kingdom as well, so if they wanted to revamp one route, they'd have to revamp all three

It's hard to say really..

[Sunwoo]

Thane posted a topic a while back about why he personally was disappointed with Nohr's storyline. It contains massive spoilers, but if anyone wants I could link it.

[Jello]

I've been hearing almost everywhere that the Nohr path's story needs an extreme rewrite, but I haven't really seen any thing to back this up or at least say whats wrong with it in detail.

From what I've seen from the translated play through videos (which then again might not show the best representation of the actual plot) I haven't really seen any major issues. So I was wondering if anyone could just update me on what exactly are these extremely flawed plot points?

I'm in the same boat pal. After seeing some threads i was expecting it to be downright disappointing and horrible before i saw the patched gameplay, but frankly after seeing it for myself i don't have much of a problem with the story.

Sure there are moments when i think back on a chapter and think "wow, thats kinda dumb" then again I've that moment in just about every fire emblem at some specific point of the story.

It's really just a matter of personal opinion, but I have to say its NOT as bad as some people have made it out to be.

[CocoaGalaxy]

For example, I don't necessarily find it a bad story....but I''m a very awkward person, so my opinions probably don't help

From what I can tell, the main things that people dislike are

(1): "Why don't they just tell others what's going on"

(2): "Kamui beats an entire army without killing people"
(3): "Everyone fawns over Kamui, or something like that"
(4): "The villains have no motivations"
(5): "They keep harping about how Hoshido is better, and that Kamui is a bad person for joining Nohr"

(I honestly don't really know. It's more based on your expectations, but everything is really)

(6): (The awakening trio do absolutely nothing)

[JupiterKnight]

The one time the trio was supposed to do something (IK) they don't even do it and this is personally the fault of the writers for shoving them, Lilith, and the true villains pasts into separate DLC. Heck I would have preferred a simple "We chose to serve these guys instead. When they no longer need us we'll leave." over them just saying they have a mission to accomplish when they'd rather hang out and serve these people they like.

The villain problem applies to all routes so that doesn't really change much. The only difference is that they have even bigger fetish for Kamui suffering on Nohr to honor the resident dragon god. Since Kamui bringing the sword that kills Mikoto is heavily implied to have been intended to make them suffer and to kill them and Mikoto from the beginning.

Also the Hoshido bias doesn't help. It really makes me want a full on villain campaign just to burn all of Hoshido to the ground.

Edited October 2, 2015 by JupiterKnight

[NekoKnight]

I forgot to add, they advertised the game as uniting an unruly kingdom within when that's not what the campaign is about at all.

(1): If the story is "too" good, then people would be inclined to "buy nohr", which would sort of defeat the balance between the two games

There is no rule that one game must have a mediocre story to balance out its good game-play. They could both have good gameplay and a good story. They shouldn't make such a big project if they don't want to put in the effort to make two good games.

1: When confronted about why he would ever side with Nohr by Ryouma, Kamui responds with "I can't abandon the people who have supported me throughout my whole life." It's a selfish choice.

Yes, that is the one reason for siding with Nohr. Here's all the reasons you shouldn't:

-You find out your real family is in a different country, that your father was murdered and that you were kidnapped

-As far as you are aware, Garon tried to have you killed twice, and in his attempts, he killed your mentor/father figure and your real mother.

-Nohr is literally Mordor and Hoshido is Eden.

-Hoshido is peaceful and Nohr is trying to invade them.

-Siding with Nohr means destroying Hoshido. Siding with Hoshido means saving Hoshido and Nohr.

-Kamui wants to end the war but if he sides with Nohr, he doesn't actually have a plan for how to do it.

One might assume that Nohr is intended to be the wrong choice for how inept and foolish it makes Kamui.

[Mighty Kamina]

Yes, that is the one reason for siding with Nohr. Here's all the reasons you shouldn't:

-You find out your real family is in a different country, that your father was murdered and that you were kidnapped

-As far as you are aware, Garon tried to have you killed twice, and in his attempts, he killed your mentor/father figure and your real mother.

-Nohr is literally Mordor and Hoshido is Eden.

-Hoshido is peaceful and Nohr is trying to invade them.

-Siding with Nohr means destroying Hoshido. Siding with Hoshido means saving Hoshido and Nohr.

-Kamui wants to end the war but if he sides with Nohr, he doesn't actually have a plan for how to do it.

One might assume that Nohr is intended to be the wrong choice for how inept and foolish it makes Kamui.

Yep, when choosing Nohr Kamui chooses to ignore these reasons to keep the people he cares about (The Nohr royal family) safe. It's a selfish choice, whereas Hoshido is pretty clearly the greater good in this situation.

Kamui is kind of a fool. Leon has to butt in a few times to keep Kamui's naivety from getting themselves killed. (See the end of Nohr chapter 14, or Leon finishing off Zorua or whatever his name was at the end of Nohr chapter 18.)

Edited October 2, 2015 by Mighty Kamina

[CocoaGalaxy]

Well...I honestly...don't know

From a certain point of view, I guess you could say that, as a whole, all three routes feel, well, "not as good" as Awakening, which from the opinions I've heard in general, seem to be "not very good" already

From that perspective, there just doesn't seem to *be* actual plot, just like, subplots and a loose overarching plot of sorts, there's no real ..."things happening"

Maybe I'm missing something, but from my perspective, Hoshido actually has more "things happening" than Nohr (or it may be because I just read more Hoshido, but I don't know)

Long story short, I would have expected more from them, but they didn't really give *that* much

...Now whether or not I personally find the story "good", is another thing, but I won't really say anything about that

(Things don't have to meet your expectations to be good)

Edited October 2, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[NekoKnight]

Yep, when choosing Nohr Kamui chooses to ignore these reasons to keep the people he cares about (The Nohr royal family) safe. It's a selfish choice, whereas Hoshido is pretty clearly the greater good in this situation.

Kamui is kind of a fool. Leon has to butt in a few times to keep Kamui's naivety from getting themselves killed. (See the end of Nohr chapter 14, or Leon finishing off Zorua or whatever his name was at the end of Nohr chapter 18.)

Even if we were to accept that Kamui is selfish and lethally short-sighted, there is still a problem with his choice. I'll quote myself.

-Siding with Nohr means destroying Hoshido. Siding with Hoshido means saving Hoshido and Nohr.

When Kamui sides with Hoshido, he is still looking out for his Nohrian siblings and the Nohrian people. Siding with Hoshido means accomplishing almost everything he wanted to when siding with Nohr, minus all the other horrible consequences. The only reason [spoiler=Nohr plot death]Marx and Elise die in the Hoshido route

is because of Marx's stubbornness.

Had they written Kamui in Nohr as a person who willfully made selfish, but understandable choices at the expense of others (like Joel in The Last of Us), they could have had a compelling character. Instead we have a character that indirectly causes a lot of innocent people to die because he didn't think his choice through. Maybe it's just a matter of preference but I don't like having the protagonist make such disastrous, short-minded decisions when there are much more rational choices available (Hoshido route).

[Party Moth]

For starters, I will admit that, yes, I am kind of disappointed in the story

Realistically speaking, I would say they could have written a better story

There are a few "issues" so to speak, with writing a better story

(1): If the story is "too" good, then people would be inclined to "buy nohr", which would sort of defeat the balance between the two games

(2): The story has to make sense with hoshido as well, so they have to write both routes together

(3): It's kind of the same, but the story has to make sense with invisible kingdom as well, so if they wanted to revamp one route, they'd have to revamp all three

It's hard to say really..

It's funny you say that, because Aqua's inability to deliver critical information in the Nohr route either tells really, really shady things about her character, contradicts interpretations from the other routes, or both depending on your analysis of her "character." The plot hole actually makes the route less cohesive with the other two routes, so I don't understand why a worse written story "makes sense" with the other routes. Unless all three stories are poorly written, in which case you'll still irritate those interested in the plot because of a lack of quality storytelling.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Party Moth

[Time the Crestfallen]

Another problem that I noticed quite a few people complaining about was in the last chapter, when Takumi and Ryoma forgive you for everything you'd done up until that point. While the same thing happens in Nohr, it isn't anywhere near as egregious as it is in Hoshido (Elise willingly sacrificed herself to save you and Xander realises he was being a stubborn jackass just before he dies), while in the Nohr route you bring ruin to the Kingdom of Hoshido and they don't seem to care about it even a little, apparently believing that since you're their brother/sister it makes everything okay. It's especially jarring in Takumi's case considering that he's openly distrustful and resentful of you even before his brainwashing and he has a legitimate and understandable reason for having said grievances. The result is that what was meant to be a touching seen comes across as derailing the existing personalities of likeable characters so that Kamui looks like a good person.

[CocoaGalaxy]

I have no idea what they said exactly in the scene. Realistically speaking it's very optimistic, so it's kind of ..well, a bit much to swallow.

The way (Ryoma, Takumi more so) they speak, it's like they knew what was happening, which feels a bit odd, considering the "insufficient" communication they had previously. While it does make sense from the player's perspective, you'd have to wonder if they knew what was going on at that moment

(Of course, this is alll such a drag)

[blinkingbrave]

Well...I honestly...don't know

From a certain point of view, I guess you could say that, as a whole, all three routes feel, well, "not as good" as Awakening, which from the opinions I've heard in general, seem to be "not very good" already

From that perspective, there just doesn't seem to *be* actual plot, just like, subplots and a loose overarching plot of sorts, there's no real ..."things happening"

Maybe I'm missing something, but from my perspective, Hoshido actually has more "things happening" than Nohr (or it may be because I just read more Hoshido, but I don't know)

Long story short, I would have expected more from them, but they didn't really give *that* much

...Now whether or not I personally find the story "good", is another thing, but I won't really say anything about that

(Things don't have to meet your expectations to be good)

I think that's a byproduct of all three routes together making up the FE14 story. If the same type of stuff happened on Nohr and Hoshido or they focused on the same type of story, they'd be interchangeable instead of two arcs in a three arc tale. I think Hoshido's supposed to be base plot, Nohr emotional journey, and IK answers the questions posed by the two. I don't think Nohr and Hoshido are meant to be comparable.

Instead it's more like if they took Gangrel, Walhart, and Validar from Awakening, fleshed em out, and made them three games, meant to played together.

Edited October 2, 2015 by blinkingbrave

[Duke of Dozel]

Takumi and Ryoma forgive you for everything you'd done up until that point. While the same thing happens in Nohr, it isn't anywhere near as egregious as it is in Hoshido (Elise willingly sacrificed herself to save you and Xander realises he was being a stubborn jackass just before he dies), while in the Nohr route you bring ruin to the Kingdom of Hoshido and they don't seem to care about it even a little, apparently believing that since you're their brother/sister it makes everything okay. It's especially jarring in Takumi's case considering that he's openly distrustful and resentful of you even before his brainwashing and he has a legitimate and understandable reason for having said grievances.

Takumi hasn't known much of you his whole life, which makes any sort of relationship between the characters that isn't negative pretty much impossible. You fight him like 4 times and he's still sympathetic?

I think Hoshido's supposed to be base plot, Nohr emotional journey, and IK answers the questions posed by the two. I don't think Nohr and Hoshido are meant to be comparable.

This would explain things, I agree. After all, it makes almost no point to take out features in Nohr without getting things in return. Which we honestly don't.

If you really nitpick the game, yes, Nohr has issues, especially in certain moments or when compared to the Invisible Kingdom.

Kamui having sympathy for a family she doesn't remember is especially stupid. There's no point to side with Nohr outside of being with your family, and Kamui's plan to fix Nohr from the inside is always interrupted because Garon's a prick and probably has a Julius complex.

[Alazen]

Characters aren't allowed to stay contemptuous towards Kamui without being ''evil'' or otherwise unsympathetic. There can't even be a character like August.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Alazen

[blinkingbrave]

Takumi's tricky because whether or not his development makes sense is super dependent on how you interpret various bits of his character and where you allocate blame for certain plot points.

I guess since I viewed him as a more childish version of Leon, what with them being foils and his behavior in other supports, his chitchat with Kamui didn't really stand out to me as odd because it still fit in with how I had understood his character.

If you tie all his blaming Kamui stuff as more central to his character or you don't see him as childish though, I can see how that lil blurb would be jarring.

Since Nohr's all character drama-y, different character interpretations are bound to change stuff. And then since there's really not an overall 'right' interpretation, it all comes down to opinion, regarding whether or not something makes sense.

Edited October 2, 2015 by blinkingbrave

[JupiterKnight]

Pretty much. Some people won't have a problem with it while others will. I've seen that for awhile.

Takumi at least had the brainwashing by Hydra done on him, which is why he continues to become more unstable as the story progresses due to his rage being increased until it ends with his hijacking and suicide.

[Alazen]

That's shoddy writing. That's something you'd see for a raid boss in World of Warcraft.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Alazen

[JupiterKnight]

Not really as we learn in Invisible History the extent of his power.

Brainwashing some teenager with issues is actually pretty smalltime to making someone immortal or terraforming an entire planet.

Plus it acts based on his already existing issues, making them worse each time he gets beaten and unable to vent his hatred with each loss. Nohr is the result of the problem not being stopped early, while in Hoshido Aquas song helped weaken it and then she fully removed it after Iago had exploited it by making Takumi an unwilling spy.

Edited October 2, 2015 by JupiterKnight