Fire Emblem is having an identity crisis.

[Zachmac]

So Fire Emblem has a pretty split fanbase at the moment.

On one side, we've got the veterans, who dislike "waifu" and "panty" emblem, are disgusted that incest is treated so lightly, disappointed at the forced implementation of children characters, and shocked that they'd even consider adding FE Amie. Many feel that the support conversations are too lazily written and don't like the forced personalities or distasteful designs of many characters. They want to see Fire Emblem return to its roots at least pretend to take itself seriously as something more then an anime dating simulator again.

On the other side, we've got the newer Awakening fans, who have no problem with this so called "waifu" emblem. They don't mind that Awakening didn't take itself seriously. In fact, they're more then happy to ship cute anime characters together. Some might even ship their avatar with Leo or Sakura - it's just a video game after all.

Of course, not everyone fits entirely into one of these two categories; maybe there are FE veterans who love S-ranking their favorite waifu and are thrilled by FE amie; maybe there are Awakening newcomers who are disgusted by Camilla's close-up shots and ability to S-rank with her supposed brother. There might be someone who likes "waifu" emblem but dislikes distasteful female designs. That's fine. I don't believe in absolute blacks and whites. Not everyone fits into a group exactly, and no one's opinions or tastes are necessarily better than another's.

My point here, however, is not to put down either group or argue whether or not Camilla's "panty window" is really okay for a Wyvern Rider or not. The point I want to make is about the developers. I believe these competing interest extend beyond not just the fans, but all the way to the development team as well.

It seems to me that Fire Emblem Fates has two objectives. One is to create an original Fire Emblem game with a dark, serious story and deep and well balanced gameplay. The other is to emphasis everything that made Awakening so popular. The problem is that these two objectives conflict with each other time and time again. How are you supposed to take Corrin's relationship with his or her brothers and sisters seriously when s/he can S-support with every single last one of them? How are you supposed to immerse yourself in the setting when you're chucking umbrellas and parasols at your enemies? And how they heck does their awful explanation for second generation characters make any sense at all? I can only imagine that this all happened because some guys at IS wanted to ride on Awakening's success by forcing in things that don't belong.

There also seems to be a serious lack of coordination among the staff in some parts. There are parts where the conflicting interest of different developers is clearly apparent, my least favorite and most obvious of which being among the genderlocked classes. In this game, genderlocked classes were almost done away with entirely. Fighter, Pegasus Warrior, Dread Fighter and Dark Flier had their genderlocks removed, and they even changed Valkyrie into Strategist to justify the removal of a genderlock on them. Maid and Bulter are the same class in everything but name, and even Mountain Priest and War Priestess are nearly identical, with their different weapon choices being a reference to Japanese culture. So, naturally, they add in genderlocked weapons. Apparently Rinkah isn't allowed to hold Arthur's Manly Axe because girls have cooties or whatever. And then they also include the Witch and Ballistician classes as DLC. I guess Arthur doesn't want Rinkah and Effie getting cooties onto his wooden tank either. Whoever decided to remove genderlocked classes clearly didn't share his ideas very well with the guys in charge of DLC classes and gimmick weapons, and if Tsubaki/Luna's supports are anything to go by, not with the writers either.

Oh, and then there is the plot. I haven't spoiled the whole thing to myself yet, so I don't know a whole bunch about it. But I do know that not everything they promised us really happened. Nohr's story was supposed to be about reconstructing the country from the inside. Well, from what I've heard, it seems some of the writers had other ideas for that. [spoiler=Corrin's S-supports with Ryoma/Hinoka/Sakura/Takumi]Or what about Corrin's "blood relatives"? Turns out they aren't blood related at all, despite what we were all told and despite the themes of the games. Why? Because fanservice took priority here, thanks to Congress's new "No waifu left behind" act in public schools (thanks Obama!).

I don't think it's just the fans with split visions on what Fire Emblem is meant to be - I believe IS is silently split on this as well, even if they don't realize it. It would explain all these dang contradictions and inconsistencies.

We're witnessing an interesting part of Fire Emblem's history right now - we're watching it go from a game that was barely made its way out of Japan turn into a serious mainstream franchise. Has Intelligent System's staff grown bigger then they're able to manage and coordinate? And what do you think this says about Fire Emblem's future? Will it continue to appeal more and more to the "waifu crowd", or do you think that this is just another phase they're going through, and that once they're confident they don't have to lean on Awakening's popularity that they'll start cutting down the waifu emblem bits just a little?

Please pardon my sarcastic comments about cooties and Obama. I couldn't help it.

TL;DR: FE Fates isn't sure if it's trying to be it's own game with a deep and serious story or if it's trying to be Awakening 2.0, and so it's forcing in and emphasizing features from Awakening that don't really belong. Are you fine with this, or do you think IS should try to get its act together? And which direction would you prefer Fire Emblem to go in?

Edited October 6, 2015 by Zachmac

[HTakara82]

if lore dictates it, genderlocking makes sense. Like for instance, Valkyrie and Amazon can't be men.

Anyway, people had always shipped fire emblem characters, they just made it where you can make your shipping a reality, I don't see the problem.

[eclipse]

I wonder if it'll cause Fire Emblem to split as a franchise - one that's more focused on the personal interactions, with the other more focused on the strategical elements. Perhaps there'll be some odd birds like me that find enjoyment in both. . .but IMO that would be the best way to deal with the divide.

[Ansem]

pls incest is great because fe4 eugenics.

the "veterans" need to get the stick out of their asses. who cares if its waifu emblem, fire emblem is catering to a larger fanbase. it has come a long way from what it used to be, naturally there has to be some sacrifices.

[bookofholsety]

How are you supposed to immerse yourself in the setting when you're chucking umbrellas and parasols at your enemies?

oh come on. there's fucktons of problems with modern fe, but the joke weapons really aren't among them :P

(also, waifus can fuck off forever)

[iavasechui]

While I'm not fond of the incest I love shipping to death and have been annoyed by the lack of male pegasi riders since forever. If it were a unicorn rider sure.

[Zachmac]

Anyway, people had always shipped fire emblem characters, they just made it where you can make your shipping a reality, I don't see the problem.

Shipping and S-ranks really wouldn't be a problem if they didn't lock bonus character and stages behind them.

I wonder if it'll cause Fire Emblem to split as a franchise - one that's more focused on the personal interactions, with the other more focused on the strategical elements. Perhaps there'll be some odd birds like me that find enjoyment in both. . .but IMO that would be the best way to deal with the divide.

I've considered this possibility as well, and it's actually kind of worried me a bit. What if the "strategical" version doesn't sell nearly as much as the "personal interactions" version? I'd be perfectly fine with "Strategy Emblem" turning niche, but what really worries me is that the FE franchise almost died. If it weren't for Awakening's success, we probably wouldn't be getting a new Fire Emblem, and especially not three different variations plus a crazy cross-over spin off game with Atlus.

the "veterans" need to get the stick out of their asses. who cares if its waifu emblem, fire emblem is catering to a larger fanbase. it has come a long way from what it used to be, naturally there has to be some sacrifices.

Come on, let's try to be polite here. I'm not very fond of fights.

oh come on. there's fucktons of problems with modern fe, but the joke weapons really aren't among them :P

(also, waifus can fuck off forever)

I have mixed feelings about joke weapons. They way they break the mood can be hilarious. It's just sometimes I feel that hilarity is out of place, especially when that joke weapon actually has a practical use.

While I'm not fond of the incest I love shipping to death and have been annoyed by the lack of male pegasi riders since forever. If it were a unicorn rider sure.

I'm an 18-year-old male with the facial hair to prove it, and I wouldn't hesitate for a second if I were ever given a chance to ride a unicorn.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Zachmac

[Grimalkenkid]

I honestly don't know what to feel about the direction Fire Emblem is taking, if it is, indeed, the direction the series will take. I love shipping all the characters with each other; I even write headcanons for fun. But I really was initially disappointed that Kamui can romance his/her "siblings". I wanted to see them have a sibling relationship with other characters. Genderlocking certain weapons and classes when they essentially removed the traditional genderlocked classes seems silly. And the story? I try to stay away from middle-game spoilers, so I don't have a fully-formed opinion on this one, but it really did seem like the developers tried to have their cake and eat it too. If they wanted a really, really solid game that could make people stop and think about their decisions in-game, then they should've chosen light-hearted fluffiness or gritty realism. (There are better terms to describe the tones the game is going for, but I can't think of them at the moment.) Trying to blend the two just doesn't work that well.

Yet, having said all that, I honestly can't say they made a bad game. The addition of joke weapons did make combat sillier and much harder to take seriously, but I'm so glad they added them. The joke weapons add some levity to the game (along with a bunch of other little things, but I'm just using them as an example), and so, when the really serious, impactful moments do come, they're all that more powerful since I haven't been desensitized to all the bad things that happened.

Could Fates have been a grand tale that changed how we think about war and the definition of family? Maybe, but I don't know if that's what the developers were going for. I think they were trying to make a game that people would enjoy playing; just a fun game. And if that was their intent, then I think they succeeded.

No matter what direction Fire Emblem takes, though, I just know that - so long as it's fun - I'll continue to play it and continue to love it.

[Phantom037]

At this point I'd accept Awakening 2 more than another game as annoyingly indecisive as this one

[Ryo]

While I like the pairing aspect, I'm heavily against the children mechanic. I also don't want all characters to marry during the game (S support can be ordinary romantic relationship, or very close friendship even). I dislike the fact that every main characters can romance most people, the avatar can romance anyone regardless of age or prior connections, and the existence of "Avatar-sexuals".

I'm okay with one or two genderlocking classes/weapons per game, but no more than that.

[Featherwick]

I think S ranks are fine, since lots of games before this one basically have them, but the system needs to change. Characters need less S supports and more opposite gender friend ship supports. If everyone only had like 3 romantic supports I think it'd be a much better system overall.

But children are worthless. Unless they are a part of the game, like FE4 or Awakening, they should not be there. The excuse in If is awful, and they're just thrust into the game.

As for class restrictions, who cares? Having more options for characters is interesting, and it opens up the possibility of buff females like Rinka, and who can say no to that?

[You]

Well, think on the flipside here. If Intelligent Systems cranked out Fire Emblem games that all played the same, everyone would be complaining about Fire Emblem being repetitive like the Mario platformer series. It's interesting to see this game experiment with silly features and it gives me quite a laugh hearing about them. Perhaps if they refined their techniques, the Fire Emblem developers could use what they learned from these two games to create a game with a new, yet still delightful feel to it.

Anyways, no need to get so worked up over the Fire Emblem team not making the exact game you wanted. Intelligent Systems can do whatever it wants to do with the games it creates and there are already many excellent Fire Emblem titles out there already.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

is there a short version of the opening post? i love the series to death but i don't think its worth getting mentally worked up about.

unless the series stops innovating and changing, it'll always be fun from a gameplay viewpoint i believe, and thats what really matters.

Edited October 6, 2015 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[Levy]

To be honest I don't mind the dating sims elements becuase I actually play them.However that isn't what I for play fire emblem for if I wanted fanservice I could just play one of those.For me gameplay in fe always goes first even before story and characters as isn't that one of main reasons people even play games.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Levy

[secondworld]

Well, think on the flipside here. If Intelligent Systems cranked out Fire Emblem games that all played the same, everyone would be complaining about Fire Emblem being repetitive like the Mario platformer series. It's interesting to see this game experiment with silly features and it gives me quite a laugh hearing about them. Perhaps if they refined their techniques, the Fire Emblem developers could use what they learned from these two games to create a game with a new, yet still delightful feel to it.

Anyways, no need to get so worked up over the Fire Emblem team not making the exact game you wanted. Intelligent Systems can do whatever it wants to do with the games it creates and there are already many excellent Fire Emblem titles out there already.

Making more focused games=/=samey.

Just look at nearly the entire series beforehand. Even games that used the same engine played differently, and without this 'identity crisis'.

Fire Emblem games getting too samey was never a problem.

[Zachmac]

is there a short version of the opening post? i love the series to death but i don't think its worth getting mentally worked up about.

unless the series stops innovating and changing, it'll always be fun from a gameplay viewpoint i believe, and thats what really matters.

I'm so sorry. I didn't mean to write that much. I'll make a tl:dr version in a second.

Well, think on the flipside here. If Intelligent Systems cranked out Fire Emblem games that all played the same, everyone would be complaining about Fire Emblem being repetitive like the Mario platformer series. It's interesting to see this game experiment with silly features and it gives me quite a laugh hearing about them. Perhaps if they refined their techniques, the Fire Emblem developers could use what they learned from these two games to create a game with a new, yet still delightful feel to it.

Anyways, no need to get so worked up over the Fire Emblem team not making the exact game you wanted. Intelligent Systems can do whatever it wants to do with the games it creates and there are already many excellent Fire Emblem titles out there already.

I'm not really opposed to change. I love the concept behind their reworked pair up mechanics, for instance.

It's just that there are some changes that many people, including myself, don't feel are for the better.

No matter what direction Fire Emblem takes, though, I just know that - so long as it's fun - I'll continue to play it and continue to love it.

I guess this applies to me as well. As much as I sometimes rant about my dissatisfactions with Awakening, I really did enjoy my time with that game, and I'm sure I'll enjoy my time with Fates as well.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

now that i've read the tl;dr

i like how it is trying to be its own thing, honestly i can ignore all the bonus fate features no sweat, i will voice my dislike on being able to marry children, children being shoehorned in fate instead of having a small place in the plot, and face rubbing is not what friends do with each other, romantic relationship sure that's fine if the other part wants too.

hell i beat awakening up abunch but i'm currently playing it again and having some fun, all its issues are still there for me tho (no map design, non existent villain motivations, plot holes)

[HTakara82]

oh come on. there's fucktons of problems with modern fe, but the joke weapons really aren't among them :P

(also, waifus can fuck off forever)

And yet your favorite fire emblem is about marrying and making babies.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

And yet your favorite fire emblem is about marrying and making babies.

not to defend the guy, because he can do that himself, but there's 100% less player self insert.

i love FE4 as well, if they are going to keep children, they need to be given more importance.

[Baldrick]

I agree with McLovin.

And yet your favorite fire emblem is about marrying and making babies.

As someone who likes FE4 eugenics but detests the waifu scene, I think of it like the difference between the Football Manager series and the Fifa series.

[Luninareph]

And what do you think this says about Fire Emblem's future? Will it continue to appeal more and more to the "waifu crowd", or do you think that this is just another phase they're going through, and that once they're confident they don't have to lean on Awakening's popularity that they'll start cutting down the waifu emblem bits just a little?

I think you're correct that we're witnessing a breakthrough in how Fire Emblem does Fire Emblem. My hope is that IS will be able to merge these two goals, and it's my (perhaps optimistic) opinion that Fates is a step in the right direction for this. Characters can have gimmicks AND interesting character arcs, and a story can be fun AND emotionally complex, and it looks like Fates is managing this unification better than Awakening did. It's pretty understandable that they would feel obligated to stick to FEA's format, however, seeing how it literally pulled the series out of the jaws of death and all.

Incidentally, I giggle every time I see somebody complaining about the waifus or the incest. FE4 had both of these things and it is very justifiably one of the classic games of the series. If you want to complain about the implementation, that's one thing, but complaining about them as concepts is just silly.

[Sunwoo]

Incidentally, I giggle every time I see somebody complaining about the waifus or the incest. FE4 had both of these things and it is very justifiably one of the classic games of the series. If you want to complain about the implementation, that's one thing, but complaining about them as concepts is just silly.

The implementation is what I have a problem with more than the actual themes itself. In FE4, the main incest was between two half-siblings who were tricked into procreating so that they'd produce a compatible vessel for an evil god. The marriage system was present because in FE4 the majority of your first generation dies and their children take up the helm some 17 years later. The incest and the marriage system both have a plot point in FE4, which is why it was implemented well. I think that marriage was all right in Awakening because the story was about time-traveling kids from the future who came back to stop a great disaster from happening. Whether the story itself was great or not, there was a reason for the kids and the marriage system coming back.

Fates doesn't have a story reason for the kids to be there, and even less of a reason for them to grow up so fast after they are born. The main storyline (and by storyline I mean the main chapters, no supports or paralogues or DLC) always pushes the Nohr and Hoshido siblings as Kamui's family, and it's especially egregious that you never find out that the Hoshido siblings aren't related to you in the Hoshido route. Honestly, they were pushing a theme of family and sibling love and then they decided to make siblings marriageable and it basically contradicted its own theme.

That's basically what I have a problem with. To my knowledge, no other FE game has contradicted its own damn theme as hard as Fates did.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Sunwoo

[You]

Making more focused games=/=samey.

Just look at nearly the entire series beforehand. Even games that used the same engine played differently, and without this 'identity crisis'.

Fire Emblem games getting too samey was never a problem.

Well, yeah. Each Fire Emblem game in the series were different games from each other despite all being Fire Emblem games because of differences in aspects such as level design, game mechanics, and mood.

Change is what has driven this series, and I see Fates merely as a continuation of that trend.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Azura's DEF growth is worse than her HP growth

For the sake of brevity, I think the fanservice/waifu stuff is fine in moderation i.e. You can only do the skinship thing with characters you have either A or S support with.

[blinkingbrave]

And yet your favorite fire emblem is about marrying and making babies.

FE4's a different beast, mostly because the playable characters... aren't really developed. I mean... I guess you could ship them, but unless you pick one of a very specific set of pairs for your female character of choice, your ship... isn't actually going to talk. Like at all. FE4 has so little interaction between and development of the playable cast, you're kinda just basing your pairs on faces, stats, and/or getting that one extra bitty conversation you can maybe unlock pairing them up if you've picked one of the correct three/four pairs (which is... pretty much nothing). I guess that's why no one has an issue with it? (Well, that and Awakening/Fates recency).

I like the new direction, mostly because there's just sooooo much more character material. It feels like they're trading world-building focus (I guess? I dunno if that's quite right, but it seems closest out of the options I can think of) for character-building, and I'm a fan.

Buuuut I'd say it's still a lil too early to see if it'll stick. IS usually does their games in sets of two, so I'd wait til the next one to see what's still there after Awakening+Fates and that'll probably answer all your questions. Personally, I'm super curious to see if Kozaki will stick around.

Edited October 6, 2015 by blinkingbrave