Fire Emblem is having an identity crisis.

[Gomez_Addams]

The only thing that bothers me is the skinship. As cute as some people may find it, I find it HORRIFYING. Let me repeat that, HORRIFYING. You're basically petting people. SERIOUSLY??? Was that absolutely neccasary? I swear, that creeps me out like crazy!!

Guess you're not a very huggy person. I'm not either, mind you, but some of my friends/family are very physically affectionate.

[Refa]

It's a situation where it's definitely a problem that mostly exists among vet FE fans. Objectively, Fate is not worse than a million other games in mixing marriage/kids with gameplay but to Vets who only play FE games and nothing else apparently, it's a culture shock.

How many other games mix marriage and children with gameplay? It's completely reasonable that people aren't familiar with those games.

[Gomez_Addams]

How many other games mix marriage and children with gameplay? It's completely reasonable that people aren't familiar with those games.

Harvest Moon, I think? (I actually have never played those games).

Dragon Quest V, though there are only two marriage options (three in the remake).

[Alazen]

Harvest Moon and Dragon Quest V really don't help here. Harvest Moon is a series where you play as agricultural workers running farms. Dragon Quest V focuses on the trials of one royal family. Both handle children characters in a better flowing way than Awakening and Fates, which resort to junk like time travel or other dimensions to shoehorn 2nd Gen characters who besides Lucina (at best) are far more disconnected to what's happening.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Alazen

[NekoKnight]

Guess you're not a very huggy person. I'm not either, mind you, but some of my friends/family are very physically affectionate.

Those people presumably have bonds with the people they are touchy-feely with. Unless you think it's normal for your boss to start caressing your face uninvited.

[Baldrick]

Guess you're not a very huggy person. I'm not either, mind you, but some of my friends/family are very physically affectionate.

lemme hug ur face

[Shadow Knight]

Excellent analysis, but I personally would argue that there is a third side as well. There are those like me who seek a middle ground between the two. A group of veterans and rookies alike who appreciate the difficulty, fun, and quality of past Fire Emblem games, especially story wise (Genealogy). But on the other hand we have also come to enjoy many of the newer RPG elements that have been introduced such as the Avatar and children to an extent who want to keep features like these but find a way to implement where they don't compromise the core Fire Emblem experience.

It would be nice if we could go back but in my respective opinion we have reached the point of no return. Nintendo will not allow IT to return to the old system bc of how close they came to ending the series. Therefore we must find a new way forward and evolve. This doesn't mean center games completely around waifus, children, and super avatars. Any game based on that has no foundation to stand on and that system will grow stale. But to say that the old way was perfect is not correct either. Both phases had the same problem, they refused to evolve. Fates has many of the same problems that Awakening had and old school FE games for a while stopped innovating. We have to reach a perfect point that includes elements of all phases of Fire Emblem. I don't want this series on the chopping block again.

Edited October 11, 2015 by Shadow Knight

[Great Geargia Gateway]

Yeah, I think I'm okay with people touching my face as long as they ask or just some persnickety mother.
Ironic since Japan love to avoid contact with any stranger and such. I guess I can add "Do Japanese people touch face" to the list of "Seen some shit" looked at on the internet.

[blinkingbrave]

Harvest Moon and Dragon Quest V really don't help here. Harvest Moon is a series where you play as agricultural workers running farms. Dragon Quest V focuses on the trials of one royal family. Both handle children characters in a better flowing way than Awakening and Fates, which resort to junk like time travel or other dimensions to shoehorn 2nd Gen characters who besides Lucina (at best) are far more disconnected to what's happening.

In my experience, the most common issue I've seen people have (I dunno if these are vets or whoever else) is with shippers and the prevalence of romance in the supports as a whole. While kids may not be a thing in many games, likely because of the issues inherent in a generational gap, games with romance-y sideplots where you pick between several options for your main character are definitely a thing. I mean... you've got Persona, certain Final Fantasy games, Bioware games, Rune Factory (the more relevant Harvest Moon fantasy-action spin-off), Witcher, the list goes on and I'm a big sucker for fantasy games with romance sideplots, so I could definitely name more. And these would just be the games where you can pick. Which is kinda optional where shipping is concerned.

The 'rift' people have describing feels far more to me like it springs from the popularity of shipping among a certain part of the fanbase (and a lack of interest in tactics) and perhaps... backlash or disapproval from another part. I'm not so sure it's over implementation of children because I've seen critiques of that from both parties.

Edited October 11, 2015 by blinkingbrave

[Myke]

I think it's basically that the two sides (we will entertain the idea that there are two sides) are blaming each other for there being elements in the game that they don't like. 'this isn't here for me, so it obviously must be here for those LTC/shipper guys'

it's not a black and white thing, but that's what the argument is about I think. this thread has clearly demonstrated that everyone is uncomfortable about the same stuff, more or less

Edited October 12, 2015 by Myke

[Raybrand]

I dont mind the dating sim/support system, I've enjoyed it, but I do feel that with some of the support conversations they suddenly rush into marriage.

As for gender specific classes, I thought the concept is very good because it makes certain characters more unique, (you might like a certain male character for your team but a certain female character has access to a certain class that complements your team composition). I thought that, but hated it in awakening because no access to galeforce.

[Twylis]

I love the shipping but I strongly dislike the marriage and child systems. That business belongs in the epilogue - what kind of dunderheaded couple are gonna be having kids whilst in the middle of a war? Plus the S-rank supports overwhelming tend to be trash.

The de-emphasis of platonic friendships also annoys me, given a lot of the old platonic paired endings were amongst the best.

oh and the face-rubbing is creepy and dumb but whatever, at least it results in more voiced dialogue from minor characters plus neato portraits

Also the removal of gender-exclusive classes is absolutely fantastic; makes me super duper happy as they've always bothered me since way back in the GBA era.

Backtracking with the DLC is...blegh, but it's just DLC I suppose

[NekoKnight]

Also the removal of gender-exclusive classes is absolutely fantastic; makes me super duper happy as they've always bothered me since way back in the GBA era.

Did it really matter in the GBA era? Gameplay wise, genderlocked classes didn't make a difference until eugenics and skill collecting became a thing (ie the 3DS era). As for flavor, I guess that's just up to the individual.

[-Cynthia-]

Did it really matter in the GBA era? Gameplay wise, genderlocked classes didn't make a difference until eugenics and skill collecting became a thing (ie the 3DS era). As for flavor, I guess that's just up to the individual.

For reclassing the genderlocks mattered for the DS games a bit- some ladies may have liked access to Hero, Berserker, Horseman etc. and men couldn't be Pegasus or Falcoknights I suppose. Aura and Excalibur also distinguished male and female mages.

[Twylis]

Did it really matter in the GBA era? Gameplay wise, genderlocked classes didn't make a difference until eugenics and skill collecting became a thing (ie the 3DS era). As for flavor, I guess that's just up to the individual.

The lack of female axe-users and male Pegasus Knights always just seemed conspicuous to me I guess - the latter being explicitly stated to be exclusively female. For me, gender-locking is objectionable less because of the effects on mechanics (which indeed, it didn't affect back then) and moreso because of the stereotypical implications it has.

The reason I specifically say the GBA games is because that's where I actually started playing FE (but not Binding Blade obviously, or else I'd have noticed Echidna)

Edited October 15, 2015 by Twylis

[EJ107]

I really enjoy the shipping aspect but I'm not happy with how Avatar-centric many of the characters in Fates are, or how Kamui was handled in general. I'm also lukewarm about the child mechanic (I enjoyed it a lot in Awakening as I hadn't seen anything like it before and it was tied to the story, but Fates is a different matter). Honestly I would enjoy pairing the characters together just as much if the Avatar and second gen were removed.

Ultimately as long as it doesn't affect the gameplay I don't mind if all the extra stuff is in, and from what I've seen the gameplay in Fates is solid. I would like to see more emphasis being put on the story than the superfluous extras though, as from what I've heard the story in Conquest is particularly weak with Invisible Kingdom and Birthright being only slightly better.

That said, I had no issue with Awakenings story, in that it was hardly groundbreaking but acceptable enough for me to be satisfied, so I will likely end up feeling the same way about Fates.

[solrocknroll]

I love the direction the series is going in for a lot of ways. I've played almost every FE and still prefer Awakening. It's the one that has me hooked and Kozaki's my favorite designer by far. His designs just pop and flow and look great.

I don't care for skin shipping, but I won't throw a tantrum because the game isn't a 100% morally upstanding thing or something. I mean, complaining about fan service and not stuff like arenas only giving you materials and My Castle's material systems seems childish. You aren't forced at gunpoint to caress Felicia's face or anything.

Edit: Also these poll options are horrifically biased. Just because we enjoy the games doesn't mean we "ship anime characters" together, and nowhere does anything say that it's a dating sim. I think the stuck in their ways veterans are the real problems here.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Franziska von Karma

[Cinnamon Bun]

I love the direction the series is going in for a lot of ways. I've played almost every FE and still prefer Awakening. It's the one that has me hooked and Kozaki's my favorite designer by far. His designs just pop and flow and look great.

I don't care for skin shipping, but I won't throw a tantrum because the game isn't a 100% morally upstanding thing or something. I mean, complaining about fan service and not stuff like arenas only giving you materials and My Castle's material systems seems childish. You aren't forced at gunpoint to caress Felicia's face or anything.

Edit: Also these poll options are horrifically biased. Just because we enjoy the games doesn't mean we "ship anime characters" together, and nowhere does anything say that it's a dating sim. I think the stuck in their ways veterans are the real problems here.

All of this.

I've played FE6 and on, and I still prefer Awakening over the other games.

There is a lot of room for improvement, and yes perhaps they may have taken a few steps in the wrong direction (fan service, story telling etc.) however Awakening and Fates are still the most impressive games in the series to me. Those who want the old system/aesthetics to return should probably give up on that dream.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Cinnamon Bun

[eclipse]

Strongest argument for marriage, IMO, is how it ties in to reclassing. It's a really cool mechanic, and I'm going to abuse it like crazy when the game comes out.

I don't think it's veterans that are solely the problem, though. I think it's insecurity and fear, neither of which has anything to do with the amount of time someone has spent in the fandom.

[Baldrick]

Edit: Also these poll options are horrifically biased. Just because we enjoy the games doesn't mean we "ship anime characters" together, and nowhere does anything say that it's a dating sim. I think the stuck in their ways veterans are the real problems here.

Well, nobody's forcing you to vote in the poll, so why do you care?

[NekoKnight]

Strongest argument for marriage, IMO, is how it ties in to reclassing. It's a really cool mechanic, and I'm going to abuse it like crazy when the game comes out.

With buddy seals, we don't even need marriage. They should just let you buddy seal two people of any gender.

[eclipse]

With buddy seals, we don't even need marriage. They should just let you buddy seal two people of any gender.

That. . .kind of brings things back around to FE12's style of reclassing, which IIRC wasn't the best-thought-out.

In terms of writing, I don't have that much faith in their staff, unless they went FE10-style supports (and THAT wasn't popular).

[NekoKnight]

That. . .kind of brings things back around to FE12's style of reclassing, which IIRC wasn't the best-thought-out.

In terms of writing, I don't have that much faith in their staff, unless they went FE10-style supports (and THAT wasn't popular).

It would be nearly identical in function to Fates (up to one shared class via heterosexual marriage [exception for the two bisexual characters] and one shared class via a buddy seal to a same gendered character) minus the horrible writing and worse implications.

They could also just dismiss the connection to supports and let us customize the class sets of characters via a certain item. It can be as flexible or restrictive as they want it to be, but it certainly doesn't need to be tied to marriage.

[eclipse]

It would be nearly identical in function to Fates (up to one shared class via heterosexual marriage [exception for the two bisexual characters] and one shared class via a buddy seal to a same gendered character) minus the horrible writing and worse implications.

They could also just dismiss the connection to supports and let us customize the class sets of characters via a certain item. It can be as flexible or restrictive as they want it to be, but it certainly doesn't need to be tied to marriage.

I'd say somewhat.

Part of the allure of this is the fact that I'll only have two available character options besides the character's base class. I'm not sure how huge the implications really are (and guys, don't spoil me, I intend on finding this out once Fates comes stateside), but it seems like it'll be a lot more interesting than Awakening.

While it doesn't HAVE to be tied into marriage, it's one way to justify it while keeping those who like to ship characters happy (sorry, not a shipping fan, but I don't mind giving FE a reason to keep marriage in the game). I see it as a good compromise.

[arvilino]

Strongest argument for marriage, IMO, is how it ties in to reclassing. It's a really cool mechanic, and I'm going to abuse it like crazy when the game comes out.

I don't think it's veterans that are solely the problem, though. I think it's insecurity and fear, neither of which has anything to do with the amount of time someone has spent in the fandom.

I think this stems from how little changed between FE6 and FE10 or how little impact new additions truly had on the "meta game" of sorts. I think it convinces a lot that there's only one way to do a Fire Emblem game. Without fail everything that's been removed or changed that has an impact on the way the game has been played has been met with and called despite a number of them can be demonstrably proven to be better than what we had before.

To be honest the old support system it seemed more like people had indifference for most of the cast and their supports. A lot of the time(especially in the GBA games) its existence as a game mechanic seemed very distant from "Fire Emblem the Strategy Game" in the way they were limited and their effects, having to be in three squares of each other when there's with no other benefits of being in three squares of a character, having to be adjacent(in GBA games) when there's no benefit before gaining any support ranks. Combined with the different movement types(Notoriously Generals being able to support Wyvern Riders) and limited pools of characters rendered it very loosely implemented(you could pretty much ignore) mechanic unusable outside characters with good bonuses from their support type, a good partner with similar movement types.

When you think about it further somebody at IS had to write hundreds of lines of dialogue for this and then a translator had to translate it all. Which is pretty wasteful in my opinion, so much dialogue for a mechanic loosely tied to the game that can't even be incentivised for the strategic element because the method of unlocking in the first two games(FE6 and FE7) the support convos were made for clashed with their own ranking system. Additionally players who played the for story and not the gameplay wouldn't read them all because you need to play the games(FE6-FE9) dozens of times to unlock them. "Which players are the GBA/GC supports for?" seems like the real identity crisis in my opinion.

I hold FE13's, FE14's(and FE10's as a good start to it, albeit the generic lines) support system are the strongest version of it as both a mechanic and a concept. Support points building while units fight side by side, heal each other, special commands(dance), alternative actions(skinship). It has an incentive to build them(even unsupported characters provide a small support bonus or pair up), usable benefits(Pair Up bonses, higher bonuses from support boosts), great flexibility between which units you can use together and build supports, additional unlocks for reaching the max support rank(children characters, extra class for reclass). I'd say that support has been fleshed out and has became much more robust mechanic the way it is now from both the gameplay and the concept of units building relationship fighting/protecting each other.

Edited October 16, 2015 by arvilino