Fire Emblem is having an identity crisis.

[Namarid]

I'm sort of a newbie to the series, with awakening being my first FE game and FE7 being the only other one played after that. I like many others enjoy being able to ship characters together (although I wish it was restricted to 3 or 4 romantic supports and similar to past FE games) as it was fun to do. I also like the idea of children characters because it adds more to variety to an already enjoyable cast of characters, some of my favourites being Foreo,Owain and Inigo. Self inserts is another thing that I enjoy because it allows me to feel more connected to the characters. Despite my love for these features if it was the only thing the series had going for it I probably wouldn't be on this forum as the gameplay is the highlight of the series and not the dating simulator aspects of it, which judging by the poll is the main selling point of FE.

In my eyes I see these features as bonus optional content. You're never required to marry a character or get any of the children. It may seem frustrating that maps are essentially character locked,but it's not that big of a deal as getting the children isn't ridiculously hard to do. You can leave self inserts as defaults if it truly bothers you. FE Amie is there for those who like and for those who don't like it never have to touch it. These things just add to the game not detract anything from it( maybe respect but that's up to you). This is why despite children serving no relevance to the plot and having no reason to exist, I still like that they do exist.

With Fates my biggest gripes are the story that had SO much potential(seriously some of you guys should be hired by IS to write the story of these games) and being given marriage options that shouldn't be a thing. Do I think FE is having an identity crisis? No. I think it's evolving into a more accessible series with more features that appeal to large audiences, while keeping strategic,interesting and fun gameplay at heart. If the story could get to the level that the gameplay is at we are going to have a masterpiece on our hands. Fates could of been a 10/10 imho but lack of a great story that it was hyped to have dropped it to an 8/10.

[Rxmonste]

You have some fine points. But I wonder... Is that how Intelligent Systems as a developer truly operate?

I mean, is there no higher power or chain of command there? Is there really too many different creative inputs and design choices made that IS haven't bothered to agree on a compromise and just put something together that they don't agree on? I mean, wow! We're still not sure, but if that's the case, then man they have a lot of things to learn from Valve, a developer that I wish I was working for. The thing about Valve is that they're able to work with that style of development. They believe that the best decisions for the product are ones made by the people who are actually doing the work. Despite the anarchy, they delivered some of the most quality products out there, but the greater achievement is that everything within their games remains consistent. The best part about Valve is how their office tables have wheels on them, which is a HUGE thing! It allows members of the team who rarely communicate with each other (Such as a sound guy and a creative director) to suddenly be in the very same room or spot in an instant, discussing what needs to be done.

That's when we go to Fire Emblem: Fates where as you have pointed out, it feels like that there were different creative efforts can't agree on one thing. But the thing is Fates still didn't release for me or any of us to make a final call on it. (Except for people in Japan or people who speak Japanese of course.) I'll just say that I'm hoping that's not the case. Maybe it is and I'm in denial, I dunno. I'll remain optimistic until I see how they handle the plot.

Now I wanna talk individually about your questions while trying to resist ranting.

Fanservice/Waifu Emblem:

Okay, I've previously expressed my hatred towards Waifu Emblem, but I also expressed how much I think people are exaggerating, and it doesn't effect the core game.

In my opinion, Fire Emblem is built on the foundation of solid gameplay, and that's what really matters, it doesn't ruin it for me.

Gender Locked Classes:

Now that's something I wanted to talk about for quite a while, listen IS, if there's no narrative reason for locking a class to a gender, then there's no gameplay reason for it, either! It was never touched upon why a man can't ride a Pegasus or why a woman can't be a Dread Fighter. And since Fates got rid of it, it makes less sense to have gender locked weapons. Again, try to keep your gameplay as consistent as possible with your narrative.

[nocturnal YL]

...I wanted to say something here, only to find that I seem to be with the majority here. Decent gameplay, unoptimal story, and so on.

​

Namarid's post above mind has pretty much what I want to say. It's still a lot.

• I think Fire Emblem isn't so much of having an identity crisis as it's just progressing naturally
• It's trying all kinds of changes, some progressively, others jump between different points with no apparent pattern
• Progressive changes (changes that took place step-by-step):
  - abolishment of character Con
  - abolishment of weapon Wt
  - My Unit
  - for an ancient example, FE4 killed off the numerical weapon level stat in favour of letter-graded weapon ranks
• Swaying changes that don't seem to settle down:
  - the various attempts at "darkening" the games, which had varying degrees of success
  - support, base, or both?
• I don't really think FE13 and FE14 introduced that much change to the series, and lots of what people call FE13 stuff were already there in FE12
• I don't like the marriage system ("I know this is sudden, but let's get married!" - every 1st-gen S support ever)
  I even think FE13 and FE14 are sexist (Why do wives follow their husbands in the endings? Even the royals?)
• But it's just a few defects, and earlier games had defects anyway
  - Most earlier games don't even have the concept of "game balance": The game is beatable! Yay, balanced!
  - You're screwed if you like both mages and FE10, and you're double-screwed if you like both Tormod and FE10
  - This is on a more personal level, but there are story parts from the earlier games that I don't like:
  ---- FE5 Leif looks like he cares very little about his friends, though that may be a side effect of the game having no support conversations
  ---- Why are non-Lilina marriages even possible in FE6?
  ---- For those who don't like how MU gets to talk to all characters, FE9 Ike did the same
  ---- FE10 Black Knight should have gotten a bloody, gruesome death, executed by Tibarn
  - All as valid as complaints regarding, I dunno, the marriage system or the character of Severa or Camilla or something, although that's up to personal interpretation
• The 3DS games aren't that much worse, or different, is what I'm trying to say
• And finally, I see having a divided fandom a good thing because this means the series is now diversed enough to have supporters from multiple sides

Whew. I hope this is easier to read than blocks of paragraphs.

[HTakara82]

You have some fine points. But I wonder... Is that how Intelligent Systems as a developer truly operate?

I mean, is there no higher power or chain of command there? Is there really too many different creative inputs and design choices made that IS haven't bothered to agree on a compromise and just put something together that they don't agree on? I mean, wow! We're still not sure, but if that's the case, then man they have a lot of things to learn from Valve, a developer that I wish I was working for. The thing about Valve is that they're able to work with that style of development. They believe that the best decisions for the product are ones made by the people who are actually doing the work. Despite the anarchy, they delivered some of the most quality products out there, but the greater achievement is that everything within their games remains consistent. The best part about Valve is how their office tables have wheels on them, which is a HUGE thing! It allows members of the team who rarely communicate with each other (Such as a sound guy and a creative director) to suddenly be in the very same room or spot in an instant, discussing what needs to be done.

That's when we go to Fire Emblem: Fates where as you have pointed out, it feels like that there were different creative efforts can't agree on one thing. But the thing is Fates still didn't release for me or any of us to make a final call on it. (Except for people in Japan or people who speak Japanese of course.) I'll just say that I'm hoping that's not the case. Maybe it is and I'm in denial, I dunno. I'll remain optimistic until I see how they handle the plot.

Now I wanna talk individually about your questions while trying to resist ranting.

Fanservice/Waifu Emblem:

Okay, I've previously expressed my hatred towards Waifu Emblem, but I also expressed how much I think people are exaggerating, and it doesn't effect the core game.

In my opinion, Fire Emblem is built on the foundation of solid gameplay, and that's what really matters, it doesn't ruin it for me.

Gender Locked Classes:

Now that's something I wanted to talk about for quite a while, listen IS, if there's no narrative reason for locking a class to a gender, then there's no gameplay reason for it, either! It was never touched upon why a man can't ride a Pegasus or why a woman can't be a Dread Fighter. And since Fates got rid of it, it makes less sense to have gender locked weapons. Again, try to keep your gameplay as consistent as possible with your narrative.

Looks at waifu-sona avatar... okay. Don't really get why you'd hate shipping if you like persona.

[NekoKnight]

I think one of the problems with FE Fates was the idea of going after a guest writer in the first place. It's clear that the main story wasn't written with the actual gameplay features in mind at all, which is why we end up with things like the family theme in the main story, while in the supports we have the revelation that they aren't blood related. This conflict wouldn't exist if the person writting the story was closer to IS in the first place. The point of going after a guest writer would have been a better quality story, but it clearly didn't accomplish that either considering the negative reactions here, so it was all pointless.

The DLC is just messy in general. They aren't even attempting to keep parity in male vs female classes due to the two extra Amiibo ones.

That's a good point. There was probably a disconnect for a writer who (to the best of my knowledge) has never written a story for a game. That said, there should be people at IS who are familiar with story-writing so there is no excuse (besides out of control fan-pandering) for how they botched the story. They had themes and deliberately undermined them. They had an interesting premise and setting but they filled it with plot holes and left it undeveloped. They had characters, and they weakened many of them to sing more praise for the self-insert.

[Sunwoo]

I wish Kamui was an optional feature. Like the FE7 tactician if you didn't start on Lyn's mode.

One thing I've noticed is that most of my main gripes with Fates seems to be related to Kamui, the gameplay is amazing and some of the characters are amazing when they're not centered on Kamui. Even the story would be fine if it didn't revolve around Kamui so much.

Can we have an optional avatar next time?

[Party Moth]

It's less of an identity crisis and more of Kibayashi's narrative clashing with the collective tone and gameplay. The general idea of what the developers want Fire Emblem to be is quite clear through the steadier and steadier integration of the avatar character. A streamlined anime where you, the player, get to run around and make decisions and get married to whoever you want regardless of story context. Genealogy would meet that sort of logic with fire, as would many other games in the series.

I'm not saying that the older games were perfect. Far from it, in fact. But when I look at Fates I see a halfhearted attempt at exploring the same concepts as Gaiden and Thracia but with all these unnecessary extraneous elements thrown in for the sake of making the player feel important. Thirty years from now, I will look upon Fates and still be disappointed that it threw panties and needless incest and player worship in my face expecting me to be pleased. The original Fire Emblem games were about the cruelty of war and the struggles humankind has with itself again and again. With Fates one gets the impression that after every battle you can take some stress off by touching your fellow soldiers' faces and they'll let you do it because "hey, it's you, so why not?"

Edited October 6, 2015 by Party Moth

[Alazen]

I wish Kamui was an optional feature. Like the FE7 tactician if you didn't start on Lyn's mode.

One thing I've noticed is that most of my main gripes with Fates seems to be related to Kamui, the gameplay is amazing and some of the characters are amazing when they're not centered on Kamui. Even the story would be fine if it didn't revolve around Kamui so much.

Can we have an optional avatar next time?

You could say the problem isn't Kamui being required or even that he's important, so much as the game tries too hard to spin him as this magically charismatic paragon despite the position he's in.

It's less of an identity crisis and more of Kibayashi's narrative clashing with the collective tone and gameplay. The general idea of what the developers want Fire Emblem to be is quite clear through the steadier and steadier integration of the avatar character. A streamlined anime where you, the player, get to run around and make decisions and get married to whoever you want regardless of story context. Genealogy would meet that sort of logic with fire, as would many other games in the series.

I'm not saying that the older games were perfect. Far from it, in fact. But when I look at Fates I see a halfhearted attempt at exploring the same concepts as Gaiden and Thracia but with all these unnecessary extraneous elements thrown in for the sake of making the player feel important. Thirty years from now, I will look upon Fates and still be disappointed that it threw panties and needless incest and player worship in my face expecting me to be pleased. The original Fire Emblem games were about the cruelty of war and the struggles humankind has with itself again and again. With Fates one gets the impression that after every battle you can take some stress off by touching your fellow soldiers' faces and they'll let you do it because "hey, it's you, so why not?"

I would say that Fates' issues with tone or failing to imitate past games can be traced back to Awakening. Awakening wasn't much better when it came to how ridiculous the Grimleal were.

[Leif]

I don't think Fire Emblem is having an identity crisis, I think it's exploring new territory. I am happy with some of the changes, like throwing out weapon durability. Through others may disagree, I rather enjoy the concept of unique, unbreakable weapons with special battle effects. These new weapons offer another layer of strategical depth. Is the system perfect? Absolutely not. However, I hope they keep working on perfecting this new idea and try using it again in future installments, like they did with Pair Up though, it still needs work since S-support guard stance slightly overshadows attack stance

As for fan service, I believe there are better ways to do it. I was bothered at first, but now I have calmed down about it a little. I didn't like the marriage system and second generation in FE13 and I don't like it in FE14. I believe Fates has one of the biggest cast of characters in any Fire Emblem citation needed, so, naturally, some of the units gets lost among the crowd. I would hope that IS has a tighter cast of characters in future installments to allow for more character development. I guess they tried the skinship stuff to avoid that issue, but it, honestly, turned into a creepy mini-game, in my opinion. Marriage is ok. I think S-ranks don't always have to end in marriage; I've always hoped that an S-rank support can result in mutual stat-altering in two units instead of a child. For example, we could have a pair of units who've bonded to S-Rank could get a bonus to their growths, increase in stat modifiers, access to new classes/skills, or be able to adopt a guard stance. There are more ways that IS can reward players for pairing units together aside form having magical, time-traveling, alternate dimension children.

Regarding the story, I have been avoiding spoilers, so I don't know what's going on in that department. I can't wait to play the game in English so I can offer my two cents on the matter. I think Kibayashi came up with a brilliant premise, but writing a novel is different than writing for a video game, as many of you have expressed. Video games are a visual medium, with narrative elements portrayed through gameplay or cinematic cutscenes. Kibayashi's genius must have been lost in the transition from the page to the game screen, which is unfortunate since his idea successfully encapsulates the dark side of war--two distinct nations fighting for what they believe is best for their countries. I've always wanted to see cultural tension, grey morality, and history-altering decisions at play in Fire Emblem, and I thought I was going to get that. However, from the impressions that I've seen, Fates doesn't seem to deliver on that front. It's unfortunate since I thought this was going to be Fire Emblem's version of Pokemon Black and White in terms of narrative--turning themes and gameplay decisions we've grown accustomed to on top of themselves and making us question them. For instance, we thoughtlessly go through slaughtering the millions of generic, red units so much, we often forget that, in the game's universe/story setting, we are killing ordinary people, with unique hopes and dreams, who just happen to stand in the way of our protagonist.

I'm rambling here, but long story short, IS needs to take its players more seriously. We can handle dark themes and grey morality. Game of Thrones (TV show, I know) is the first thing that comes to mind or even The Last of Us. We need fewer 'Grimas' and more 'Arvises' (from FE4) narrative-wise. IS isn't having an identity crisis; it just has been trying something new for the past two games. I appreciate what they tried with Fates. We will most definitely see a new evolution of FE in the future. I just hope it delivers in presenting what a Fire Emblem game should have--good narrative followed by great characters and gameplay.

Edited October 6, 2015 by Leif

[Party Moth]

I would say that Fates' issues with tone or failing to imitate past games can be traced back to Awakening. Awakening wasn't much better when it came to how ridiculous the Grimleal were.

I would agree with that. The "identity crisis" was more of a factor in Awakening, and this game is merely the aftermath. The messy, messy aftermath.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Im really not freaking arsed to be honest. The only thing i have issue with is how the narrative gets/got jumbled up because of what the devs were trying to give us. The other elements they implemented, i have zero problem with. I actually do not care one whit that kids are a thing. I prefer them to be not plot related, actually. What i dont like? The siblings being options (particularly Hoshido because of how its handled in the narrative. At least with Nohr, Kamui freaking finds out or knows. Having Kamui court someone like Hinoka whom he believes to be a blood sister is....wat.)

What i want is a fun game with a lot of content.

[Rxmonste]

Looks at waifu-sona avatar... okay. Don't really get why you'd hate shipping if you like persona.

I should rephrase my last statement, I don't hate Anime shipping in general, be it Fire Emblem or otherwise, I just hate the fan base that grew out of it, and people calling Awakening Waifu Emblem, it builds a poor image of the series for people not interested in it, making them think it's the only thing the game has to offer, I know people who like Fire Emblem just because of the waifus. But in general, I actually like shipping, I'm just not as big of a fan of it as some people are.

But anyway, that's not the main reason why I like Persona. That's a topic for another day, a topic that I already discussed.

The short version of that review: I like it mainly because of how it provides the player with a bunch of interesting choices, meaningful choices, ones that don't have a moral compass behind them but they have different outcomes viable for different playstyles, and also affecting narrative (if a little bit less). And having the ability to make choices is what sets video games apart from other mediums. So why not do it in an interesting way? And that's what Persona does.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Rxmonste

[Gomez_Addams]

I should rephrase my last statement, I don't hate Anime shipping in general, be it Fire Emblem or otherwise, I just hate the fan base that grew out of it, and people calling Awakening Waifu Emblem, it builds a poor image of the series for people not interested in it, making them think it's the only thing the game has to offer, I know people who like Fire Emblem just because of the waifus. But in general, I actually like anime shipping, I'm just not as big of a fan of it as some people are.

But anyway, that's not the main reason why I like Persona. That's a topic for another day, a topic that I already discussed.

The short version of that review: I like it mainly because of how it provides the player with a bunch of interesting choices, meaningful choices, ones that don't have a moral compass behind them but they have different outcomes viable for different playstyles, and affecting narrative if a little bit less. And having the ability to make choices is what sets video games apart from other mediums. So why not do it in an interesting way? And that's what Persona does.

I thought most of the people calling it "Waifu Emblem" were using it as an insult.

[Rxmonste]

I thought most of the people calling it "Waifu Emblem" were using it as an insult.

Now that you mention it, I'm unsure which people are using it as an insult or not. But in my experience, most people I've seen calling it Waifu Emblem seemed to use it as a compliment.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Now that you mention it, I'm unsure which people are using it as an insult or not. But in my experience, most people I've seen calling it Waifu Emblem seemed to use it as a compliment.

Really? I was under the impression that people use the name Waifu/Husbando Emblem when they're just joking around.

[Rxmonste]

Really? I was under the impression that people use the name Waifu/Husbando Emblem when they're just joking around.

*Sigh* Yeah, compliment isn't the right word. But whatever, my point is that my impression was that they didn't use it as insult for having fanservice.

Edited October 7, 2015 by Rxmonste

[Leif]

*Sigh* Yeah, compliment isn't the right word. But whatever, my point is that my impression was that they didn't use it as insult for having fanservice.

That's strange. I always believed "Waifu Emblem" was used in a derogatory manner. Most people who use that expression are usually implying that Fire Emblem has been reduced to a game where the focus seemingly is on pairing so-and-so with whoever.

I am not saying I'm right, perhaps some people use the term differently.

[SpeedB00st]

I don't think it is an identity crisis, Fire Emblem HAD TO evolve in order to continue, we all know Awakening was going to be the last game if it did not sell well, so it had to change. But a lot of people ask the question "At what cost".

[CyborgZeta]

I wish Kamui was an optional feature. Like the FE7 tactician if you didn't start on Lyn's mode.

Can we have an optional avatar next time?

Nah, I don't think the Avatar will be going away anytime soon.

My concern is that, if IS ever decides to do more remakes of older games, that they shove in an Avatar into games they originally had no place in. They already did it with New Mystery, and I wasn't keen on that.

[Baldrick]

I don't think it is an identity crisis, Fire Emblem HAD TO evolve in order to continue, we all know Awakening was going to be the last game if it did not sell well, so it had to change. But a lot of people ask the question "At what cost".

Most of the previous games had met the sales threshold needed for the series to continue, so it didn't NEED to change. That said, it likely wouldn't have sold quite as well without the changes.

I really want to play the game, but stuff like skinshipping is hard to put out of my mind.

[Zasplach]

I really want to play the game, but stuff like skinshipping is hard to put out of my mind.

I basically feel the same way, but there have been so many good Fire Emblem games in the past, that I feel IS has earned my loyalty for at least one game; Awakening wasn't my favorite Fire Emblem, but it wasn't the worst either. Fates could still be good, maybe localization will help it, who knows?

[Wyvern_Lord]

Most of the previous games had met the sales threshold needed for the series to continue, so it didn't NEED to change. That said, it likely wouldn't have sold quite as well without the changes.

I'm going to have to disagree and say it really did need to change. Intelligent systems have been treading water for quite a while now with every game that hasn't got Mario in it under performing or just hitting sales thresholds. with increasing development costs and mobile gaming taking over the portable market they needed a killer hit.

[Sunwoo]

I really want to play the game, but stuff like skinshipping is hard to put out of my mind.

Here's the good news, you can nuke "My Room" and make it so that you can never skinship ever in that file.

[Ryo]

Here's the good news, you can nuke "My Room" and make it so that you can never skinship ever in that file.

...Until you rebuild it.

[Sunwoo]

...Until you rebuild it.

Yeah, but if you got rid of it in the first place I'm not sure why you'd wanna rebuild it