Sunwoo Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 Thaaaaaaaaane, it's been a while! XD But yeah, while I'm not sure if I'd go so far as to say Fates is the single worst game I've played in terms of story, I do agree with you about Kamui. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thane Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 Thaaaaaaaaane, it's been a while! XD But yeah, while I'm not sure if I'd go so far as to say Fates is the single worst game I've played in terms of story, I do agree with you about Kamui. Moving to another country to study (where they don't seem to realize it's the 21st century) will do that. It's good to see you again though! I've got so many books to read, man. I'm not exaggerating about the game though; it actually beat Dragon Age II and Dragon Age: Inquisition - one of them is seriously about you being a janitor in everything but name! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sunwoo Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 You should PM me and tell me what it's like over there, lol Well I certainly agree that Fates' storytelling isn't really good, I'm just not sure if it's the worst thing I've ever played. Then again, I haven't played a lot of games so I guess I can't be certain. At the very least, it's better than Twilight and its ilk. Although Kamui is like Bella in a way. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakTree Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 No, I do not. However, I am of the opinion that self-inserts are far harder to write than proper characters, seeing as the writers need to either incorporate a far wider array of conversation/personality options, make the character thoroughly bland, or silent in order to make sure every player can "become" the avatar. A series like Fire Emblem, which more often than not has below average writing, is not the place for avatars. A game like Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords, did the self-insert character better than any other game I've ever played. Decisions carried weight, not only for the future but also for how you reflect over a VERY interesting and well-written past. Not every game can pull that off. My second favorite video game of all time in terms of story, Persona 4, a game which is beautifully written and incredibly clever whenever it doesn't try to be a shonen anime, suffers from everyone in town worshiping the ground the main character walks on. The game more or less encourages you to get several girlfriends, and the romance parts are so painfully bad that it makes me wonder if they were written by a completely different writer; for instance, when a certain girl confesses her love for the player, she hugs him and...the avatar just stands there, doing and saying nothing. Why am I bringing that up? Because if even a fantastically written game can fail at making a self-insert protagonist, then Fire Emblem stands very little chance of succeeding. Fire Emblem: Fates is the single worst game I've ever played in terms of story. It did everything wrong, from characters to characterization to worldbuilding; a large contributing factor to this is undoubtedly Kamui. I'm of the firm opinion that if Kamui had been a regular, uncustomizable lord, then the writers wouldn't have been scared shitless of potentially making the player actually feel something. As it stands now, Kamui's shortcomings are always excused while more than a few characters - main characters as well - exist only as their peripheral. When the entire story warps around the protagonist, and the avatar is praised for nothing in particular, then it stops even being pandering, and instead comes across as complete condescension. Which is funny, because in my opinion, Persona 4 is not even the best Atlus game that pulls off the Avatar-style protagonist. (Althrough it still does it really well) To me, the best Atlus game to do that was Devil Survivor 2, in that game, what you said and decided during cutscenes didn't change the plot at all, what it did change however, was how easy it was for you to bond with the characters in side-events, the more a character likes you in the main story makes it less likely for you, the player, to fail to sucessfully bond with the characters in side events, the game also has traditional choices, althrough the ony thing they change is wheter a character dies or not (And even then, the character is always not that important and will be replaced during cutscenes with another character) and the typical route split that locks you to differet endings. Also, Thane, have you ever played Persona 2? I recommend it if you haven't and you like to have good stories in games. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakTree Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 · Hidden by Ϲharlie, October 18, 2015 - No reason given Hidden by Ϲharlie, October 18, 2015 - No reason given No, I do not. However, I am of the opinion that self-inserts are far harder to write than proper characters, seeing as the writers need to either incorporate a far wider array of conversation/personality options, make the character thoroughly bland, or silent in order to make sure every player can "become" the avatar. A series like Fire Emblem, which more often than not has below average writing, is not the place for avatars. A game like Knights of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords, did the self-insert character better than any other game I've ever played. Decisions carried weight, not only for the future but also for how you reflect over a VERY interesting and well-written past. Not every game can pull that off. My second favorite video game of all time in terms of story, Persona 4, a game which is beautifully written and incredibly clever whenever it doesn't try to be a shonen anime, suffers from everyone in town worshiping the ground the main character walks on. The game more or less encourages you to get several girlfriends, and the romance parts are so painfully bad that it makes me wonder if they were written by a completely different writer; for instance, when a certain girl confesses her love for the player, she hugs him and...the avatar just stands there, doing and saying nothing. Why am I bringing that up? Because if even a fantastically written game can fail at making a self-insert protagonist, then Fire Emblem stands very little chance of succeeding. Fire Emblem: Fates is the single worst game I've ever played in terms of story. It did everything wrong, from characters to characterization to worldbuilding; a large contributing factor to this is undoubtedly Kamui. I'm of the firm opinion that if Kamui had been a regular, uncustomizable lord, then the writers wouldn't have been scared shitless of potentially making the player actually feel something. As it stands now, Kamui's shortcomings are always excused while more than a few characters - main characters as well - exist only as their peripheral. When the entire story warps around the protagonist, and the avatar is praised for nothing in particular, then it stops even being pandering, and instead comes across as complete condescension. Which is funny, because in my opinion, Persona 4 is not even the best Atlus game that pulls off the Avatar-style protagonist. (Althrough it still does it really well) To me, the best Atlus game to do that was Devil Survivor 2, in that game, what you said and decided during cutscenes didn't change the plot at all, what it did change however, was how easy it was for you to bond with the characters in side-events, the more a character likes you in the main story makes it less likely for you, the player, to fail to sucessfully bond with the characters in side events, the game also has traditional choices, althrough the ony thing they change is wheter a character dies or not (And even then, the character is always not that important and will be replaced during cutscenes with another character) and the typical route split that locks you to differet endings. Also, Thane, have you ever played Persona 2? I recommend it if you haven't and you like to have good stories in games. Link to comment
Thane Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 Which is funny, because in my opinion, Persona 4 is not even the best Atlus game that pulls off the Avatar-style protagonist. (Althrough it still does it really well) To me, the best Atlus game to do that was Devil Survivor 2, in that game, what you said and decided during cutscenes didn't change the plot at all, what it did change however, was how easy it was for you to bond with the characters in side-events, the more a character likes you in the main story makes it less likely for you, the player, to fail to sucessfully bond with the characters in side events, the game also has traditional choices, althrough the ony thing they change is wheter a character dies or not (And even then, the character is always not that important and will be replaced during cutscenes with another character) and the typical route split that locks you to differet endings. Also, Thane, have you ever played Persona 2? I recommend it if you haven't and you like to have good stories in games. I don't know if I misunderstand what you're saying, or if you read my post incorrectly, but I said that one of Persona 4's few major weak points is the silent protagonist. It's horrendously handled, just like in Persona 3, although at least you're not forced into relationships anymore. Persona 2 has an amazing premise but fails to deliver, and eventually becomes a huge clusterfuck. While I prefer the darker setting and dislike anime in general, Persona 4 blows its predecessors out of the water in terms of writing, aside from the romance and Marie. Oh, and it gets a bit preachy towards the end, too, but I'll chalk that up to my "shonen anime" complaint. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakTree Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 I don't know if I misunderstand what you're saying, or if you read my post incorrectly, but I said that one of Persona 4's few major weak points is the silent protagonist. It's horrendously handled, just like in Persona 3, although at least you're not forced into relationships anymore. Persona 2 has an amazing premise but fails to deliver, and eventually becomes a huge clusterfuck. While I prefer the darker setting and dislike anime in general, Persona 4 blows its predecessors out of the water in terms of writing, aside from the romance and Marie. Oh, and it gets a bit preachy towards the end, too, but I'll chalk that up to my "shonen anime" complaint. I know, i was just saying that Atlus has done it right before. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thane Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 I know, i was just saying that Atlus has done it right before. In Devil Survivor 2, you say? I will check it out, if that's the case. I remember not liking a lot of the Shin Megami Tensei games not because I'm a filthy casual scrub, but because I found the writing appalling, Digital Devil Saga being the worst - it feels like it's always about killing God who's testing humanity's potential for some reason. One of the reasons why Persona 4 works so well, and why Persona 3 gets overshadowed, is because the game takes its time to actually develop the environment, the setting and the characters. I've got a lot of small complaints and a lot of minor ones, but they pale in comparison to the overall quality and the mistakes of the other games in the series. It also helps that the journey is far more personal, and the setting relatable. To tie this into Fire Emblem: Fates: a few hours into Persona 4 you're still getting accostumed to the gameplay, the town, the setting and the characters, whereas in Fates, you've already made the choice of which country you want to side with. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OakTree Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 In Devil Survivor 2, you say? I will check it out, if that's the case. I remember not liking a lot of the Shin Megami Tensei games not because I'm a filthy casual scrub, but because I found the writing appalling, Digital Devil Saga being the worst - it feels like it's always about killing God who's testing humanity's potential for some reason. One of the reasons why Persona 4 works so well, and why Persona 3 gets overshadowed, is because the game takes its time to actually develop the environment, the setting and the characters. I've got a lot of small complaints and a lot of minor ones, but they pale in comparison to the overall quality and the mistakes of the other games in the series. It also helps that the journey is far more personal, and the setting relatable. To tie this into Fire Emblem: Fates: a few hours into Persona 4 you're still getting accostumed to the gameplay, the town, the setting and the characters, whereas in Fates, you've already made the choice of which country you want to side with. Ow boy, if you dislike the whole "God's a dick, demons are everywhere" plot, then forget it, don't play it, forget everything i said. You'll hate it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blinkingbrave Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 One of the reasons why Persona 4 works so well, and why Persona 3 gets overshadowed, is because the game takes its time to actually develop the environment, the setting and the characters. I've got a lot of small complaints and a lot of minor ones, but they pale in comparison to the overall quality and the mistakes of the other games in the series. It also helps that the journey is far more personal, and the setting relatable. To tie this into Fire Emblem: Fates: a few hours into Persona 4 you're still getting accostumed to the gameplay, the town, the setting and the characters, whereas in Fates, you've already made the choice of which country you want to side with. I always thought Persona 4 really dragged in the first few hours particularly, though, for that reason. Fates is definitely a lil light on world building-y stuff, but the way P4 dumps it on you in the beginning (and how much it limits your interaction while doing that)... I dunno if that's the way to go either. Persona 3... might've had the same pacing issue (it's been a lil while since I played though), but I feel like it got better as the story progressed. I just remember that the way Persona 4 slowed down the main plot to kinda spoon feed you information got pretty tedious pretty fast, imo. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thane Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 I always thought Persona 4 really dragged in the first few hours particularly, though, for that reason. Fates is definitely a lil light on world building-y stuff, but the way P4 dumps it on you in the beginning (and how much it limits your interaction while doing that)... I dunno if that's the way to go either. Persona 3... might've had the same pacing issue (it's been a lil while since I played though), but I feel like it got better as the story progressed. I just remember that the way Persona 4 slowed down the main plot to kinda spoon feed you information got pretty tedious pretty fast, imo. It's not for everyone, I know, but it paints a very good picture of where you are, who you're with, what's at stake and more. The worldbuilding continues as well in the form of the TV world, so I would object to it being all dumped on you in the beginning. The mystery is also continuously being expanded upon as the characters learn more, and it's paced really well. Persona 3 has a LOT more of issues than simple pacing. Persona 3 begins in a way that leaves the player absolutely confused (to the point where it's far better for players to begin with Persona 4). It also has some of the worst villains in gaming (a sick guy with a gun is seriously the most threatening thing in the game), forced relationships for the main character, far more horrible social links (fucking KENJI?!), zero character development for the male cast due to them not having social links, the story being even more preachy than Persona 4, the fan service/anime parts being even more out of place than in Persona 4 since the cast doesn't even really know each other. I could go on, but I think you get my point. A lot of the problems are fixed in the PSP version in the form of the female route, but she's explicitly stated to be non-canon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.Leu Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 (edited) Yay, I'm not the only who think a silent protag would be good, along with giving you true choices ! :D It would've taked a lot of effort, but hey, they were the one who said they were making effort in the first place. Just thinking about what you could do with something like this, the boss lines, the supports, the main story, the paths... just about everything. Edited October 18, 2015 by B.Leu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thane Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 Silent protagonists rarely work, in my opinion. They work in games that aren't very heavily reliant on the story, like Pokémon (and even then, Pokémon Black and White has a far better story than Fire Emblem: Fates could ever hope to have, and it's a series that's marketed so heavily to kids that it doesn't even have kanji in the Japanese versions), but for story heavy games, every single line of dialogue has to be written around the fact that the protagonist doesn't say anything, which tends to really limit the story and its potential.Of course, some games, like the aforementioned Persona 4, can work IN SPITE of it because the rest of it is so good, but not BECAUSE of it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NekoKnight Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 Moving to another country to study (where they don't seem to realize it's the 21st century) will do that. It's good to see you again though! I've got so many books to read, man. I'm not exaggerating about the game though; it actually beat Dragon Age II and Dragon Age: Inquisition - one of them is seriously about you being a janitor in everything but name! Oh come now, I may be a big critic of Fate's writing but worse than Dragon Age II? That's a game I stopped playing in the first act because of how awful the story was. muh mage vs Templar conflict, forever and ever Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomez_Addams Posted October 18, 2015 Share Posted October 18, 2015 Fire Emblem: Fates is the single worst game I've ever played in terms of story. No disrespect, but I really have to question this. Maybe it's just my natural inclination against hyperbole talking here. I've seen many criticisms of Fates' story, but nothing to suggest it's Metroid: Other M tier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 At least DAII didn't have a Golden Ending where the Mages and Templars friend-up against the final boss. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B.Leu Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) Silent protagonists rarely work, in my opinion. They work in games that aren't very heavily reliant on the story, like Pokémon (and even then, Pokémon Black and White has a far better story than Fire Emblem: Fates could ever hope to have, and it's a series that's marketed so heavily to kids that it doesn't even have kanji in the Japanese versions), but for story heavy games, every single line of dialogue has to be written around the fact that the protagonist doesn't say anything, which tends to really limit the story and its potential. Of course, some games, like the aforementioned Persona 4, can work IN SPITE of it because the rest of it is so good, but not BECAUSE of it. Agree to disagree then ? Well, not really since at it's core, I agree with you, it rarely work. But I remember Devil Survivor and older Bioware games, or even Morro/Obli, and honestly, I think it one of the things that make those games good, not the only thing and not the best, but one of the things. And according to Eclipse, EOU1/2 dialogue are quite good. Compared to Bioware-now or Kamui, I'll take a silent hero that I can easily insert myself into everyday, at least, it's fun. Seriously, the bad writing, crappy plot, and the 'do X , think X , you're X , you feel X ', all of that just to restrict the hell out of the player. It's why I'm not too hot about Fallout 4 having a voice protag, because I don't want to have a mix between Skyrim and DA/ME in term of dialogue. At least DAII didn't have a Golden Ending where the Mages and Templars friend-up against the final boss. Is it really a good thing though ? Considering how much the final was lackluster as hell. Edited October 19, 2015 by B.Leu Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maybe Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) Is it really a good thing though ? Considering how much the final was lackluster as hell. now I haven't played either game but "both sides team up to fight the big evil threat" is one of the most cliche and boring ways to end anything Edited October 19, 2015 by maybe Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Abysswalker25 Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Y'know its funny. If this was real life, a big complaint I hear about Kamui would amount to "Not enough people I meet hate me! Too many people like me!" Of course, it is not. But for the avatar thing itself.. I like having the character. Helps me feel more involved and while everyone might have a different opinion on that I think it is a good addition. That said, the avatar's could be handled much better. And since I think it is going to end up a series staple at this point, hopefully they will find a way to handle it properly. A dialogue tree would be nice, if they could find a way to add it. Help flesh out the character more. But, how would they handle support conversations with everyone? If you had say, 4-5 personalities to choose from, would they have to make a unique story for each of those, or go the generic Morganxparent that isn't robin? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) Name me an actual commander or ruler on Earth worshiped like Kamui to the point that only cartoon villains won't side with him. Edited October 19, 2015 by Alazen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomez_Addams Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 Name me an actual commander or ruler on Earth worshiped like Kamui to the point that only cartoon villains won't side with him. There have been several commanders throughout history famous for having the undying devotion of their subordinates. Horatio Nelson springs to mind immediately. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alazen Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 (edited) I must have missed the part where only cartoon villains wouldn't side with Admiral Nelson. Or that a French shinobi helped him to conquer France despite having an opposing family member. Or that one of his siblings was framed as damn wrong for not worshiping him. Or that Nelson had not really relevant characters be there to worship him (Camilla, Felicia, etc.). Or that he was the heir to any kingdoms regardless of being under control of his WoW raid boss dragon father and invisible thanks to a convenient curse or not . Edited October 19, 2015 by Alazen Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomez_Addams Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 I must have missed the part where only cartoon villains wouldn't side with Admiral Nelson. Or that a French shinobi helped him to conquer France despite having an opposing family member. Or that one of his siblings was framed as damn wrong for not worshiping him. Or that Nelson had not really relevant characters be there to worship him (Camilla, Felicia, etc.). Or that he was the heir to a secret kingdom. ...There were no shinobi in late 18/early 19th-century France. Though due to the French Revolution, several aristocratic families had members on both sides of the conflict. Framed by who? Considering how adored Nelson was in England, I have little doubt that anyone who spoke ill of him, family or not, would find themselves vilified by every paper in the country, not to mention the scorn they'd receive from their peers. And "heir to a secret kingdom"? The heck? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ryo Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 ...There were no shinobi in late 18/early 19th-century France. Though due to the French Revolution, several aristocratic families had members on both sides of the conflict. Framed by who? Considering how adored Nelson was in England, I have little doubt that anyone who spoke ill of him, family or not, would find themselves vilified by every paper in the country, not to mention the scorn they'd receive from their peers. And "heir to a secret kingdom"? The heck? He was comparing Nelson to Kamui... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gomez_Addams Posted October 19, 2015 Share Posted October 19, 2015 He was comparing Nelson to Kamui... He asked "Name me an actual commander or ruler on Earth worshiped like Kamui to the point that only cartoon villains won't side with him. " Not "Name me an actual commander or ruler on Earth who is exactly like Kamui in every way." The latter is impossible, since no commander or ruler in history has had the ability to turn into a dragon, as awesome as that would be. "And thus, Julius Ceaser transformed into a dragon and leapt over the Rubicon in a single mighty stride..." Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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