Do you hate Avatar character(s)? If so, why?

[Baldrick]

Emperor Norton fits all of those requirements.

[Alazen]

Your attempt is still shoddy. Nelson never worked against Britain while Kamui can oppose Hoshido and he'll still get excused or otherwise worshiped by too many characters on the opposing side. A shinobi stays as his lapdog no matter what Kamui does.

Like, do you seriously think Nelson would still have his reputation if he joined Napoleon?

Edited October 19, 2015 by Alazen

[blinkingbrave]

Or that a French shinobi helped him to conquer France despite having an opposing family member.

A shinobi stays as his lapdog no matter what Kamui does.

Since I've seen this brought up a few times... it's hard to tell because it's such a minor plot point, so there's little info surrounding it, buuuut two things...

1) Suzukaze following Kamui on Nohr is very conditional on what Kamui does, at least as I understood it. He says flat out that when he thought Kamui's intentions with siding with Nohr was to destroy Hoshido that he wouldn't have followed her. Following his discovery of her true intentions and her statement that her presence in Nohr still let her save Hoshidan lives (with the example of the battle they just fought), Suzukaze sides with her because their resolutions (which is one of his big deals) agree.

2) He doesn't seem terribly close to the Hoshidans, imo. He doesn't even list them as one of his reasons for serving Hoshido when he's having one of his resolution discussions (with Marx, I think), even mentioning Nohr as unique because he's fighting for his friends and for himself instead of to serve his country. Not only that, but I kinda thought his support with Kagerou (where he mentions a distance between him and Saizou) and his support with Saizou (revealing info formative of Saizou's character that Suzukaze is surprised to learn) implied that Suzukaze wasn't terribly close with his brother either, particularly when combined with some details of their interaction on the Nohr route and their childhood.

Now, I'm not saying siding with Kamui was the smart decision here, but he doesn't seem to have much personal attachment to Hoshido and he sounds like as much of an idealist as she is, so there are in character reasons, imo.

Edited October 19, 2015 by blinkingbrave

[Alazen]

So he's a lapdog. And so we established that.

Oh no, we can't have Suzukaze desert Kamui or whatever. We must have him worship Kamui.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Alazen

[Ryo]

Since I've seen this brought up a few times... it's hard to tell because it's such a minor plot point, so there's little info surrounding it, buuuut two things...

1) Suzukaze following Kamui on Nohr is very conditional on what Kamui does, at least as I understood it. He says flat out that when he thought Kamui's intentions with siding with Nohr was to destroy Hoshido that he wouldn't have followed her. Following his discovery of her true intentions and her statement that her presence in Nohr still let her save Hoshidan lives (with the example of the battle they just fought), Suzukaze sides with her because their resolutions (which is one of his big deals) agree.

2) He doesn't seem terribly close to the Hoshidans, imo. He doesn't even list them as one of his reasons for serving Hoshido when he's having one of his resolution discussions (with Marx, I think), even mentioning Nohr as unique because he's fighting for his friends and for himself instead of to serve his country. Not only that, but I kinda thought his support with Kagerou (where he mentions a distance between him and Saizou) and his support with Saizou (revealing info formative of Saizou's character that Suzukaze is surprised to learn) implied that Suzukaze wasn't terribly close with his brother either, particularly when combined with some details of their interaction on the Nohr route and their childhood.

Now, I'm not saying siding with Kamui was the smart decision here, but he doesn't seem to have much personal attachment to Hoshido and he sounds like as much of an idealist as she is, so there are in character reasons, imo.

1. Except Kamui never kept their promise. The second half of the Nohr route is about conquering Hoshido, which directly contradicts with what Kamui planned earlier on. And Suzukaze still stays with Kamui. He doesn't even question their actions either. As of chapter 17 (which is his last screen time), he still insisted that they're "doing the right thing", without even knowing what Kamui and Aqua are up to.

2. There's a big difference between not being close to someone and agreeing or even assisting people in killing them. Suzukaze doesn't hold any grudge against any Hoshidan to the point of doing what he does in the Nohr route. Mikoto forgave him after his mistakes, and nobody ever mistreats him or anything. Also, I would take the supports with Marx and other Nohrians with a grain of salt because they're exactly the same as in IK, where Suzukaze and Kamui never actually betrays anyone. The context are different.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Ryo

[Alazen]

Now, I could maybe buy Suzukaze sticking around Kamui in Conquest if it wasn't framed as Kamui being such a wonderful paragon that an enemy shinobi follows him no matter what he does. Instead you could have gone with this:

Suzukaze's homeland was conquered by Sumeragi's army, killing who knows how many. Suzukaze knows this and so he has a problem with Hoshido. Seeing a way to pay Hoshido back, he does what he can to aid the war against it.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Alazen

[Ryo]

I think the core problem lies in the fact that the developers weren't willing to vilify Hoshido, not even one bit.

The war between the two kingdoms comes across as a good vs. evil battle. Anyone who defects from Hoshido to Nohr thus automatically becomes morally questionable because it's hard to sympathize with their actions, but not the other way around (even before factoring in the player-worship element). That's why there's only two units who left Hoshido for Nohr (Aqua and Suzukaze), and in Aqua's case, it's because she was kicked out of the kingdom, as contrast to the large number of people defecting from Nohr.

And it becomes worse when they're betraying their homeland not for any personal or political motivations, but because their loyalty and attachment to the avatar character have completely clouded any common sense, especially when they don't seem to care for anything else.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Ryo

[Alazen]

It's not just how Fates goes out of its way to not vilify Hoshido, there's also how it goes out of its way to not vilify Kamui. Even in the Path where he sticks with the invading war crimes happy Medieval Europe analogue.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Alazen

[blinkingbrave]

1. Except Kamui never kept their promise. The second half of the Nohr route is about conquering Hoshido, which directly contradicts with what Kamui planned earlier on. And Suzukaze still stays with Kamui. He doesn't even question their actions either. As of chapter 17 (which is his last screen time), he still insisted that they're "doing the right thing", without even knowing what Kamui and Aqua are up to.

2. There's a big difference between not being close to someone and agreeing or even assisting people in killing them. Suzukaze doesn't hold any grudge against any Hoshidan to the point of doing what he does in the Nohr route. Also, I would take the supports with Marx and other Nohrians with a grain of salt because they're exactly the same as in IK, where Suzukaze and Kamui never actually betrays anyone. The context are different.

1. Kamui's resolution is the same, and by that point in the plot, Kamui and Marx have started to split Nohr into their 'faction'-y thing Aqua later mentions as separate from Garon's Nohr. Suzukaze's comment (at least in my translation) was more along the lines of 'both sides are fighting for justice and we don't know if Hoshido was the 'right' way.' I'd think it's safe to assume, given Marx and Kamui's actions just prior to his statement, that Suzukaze understands they aren't truly allied with Garon (albeit this is muuuuch more complicated in Marx's case) and that the one driving the war, so the enemy both sides are truly fighting, is him. I'd think, particularly by this point in the plot since you have Marx, Leon, and Kamui together, 'Nohr' is more a two part concept than one unified country, and the side Suzukaze references when he mentions both is much more likely Kamui's than Garon's. He doesn't need to be aware of IK shenanigans or Aqua's plan to understand that.

2. Nah, that's fair. Character interpretation is a weird, nebulous ground, and Suzukaze's one of the characters who doesn't get to talk about his mental/moral state very much. The way I understood it, the majority of Nohr and Hoshido were kinda the same for Suzukaze (with Saizou and Kamui as exceptions), so picking a side didn't... matter overly much. Even less so knowing that Kamui was trying to save the maximal number of Hoshidans, meaning on the Nohr route siding with her would actually be the most probable way of keeping her, Saizou, and himself alive. But beyond his betrayal canonically taking place, the 'why' is pretty up to interpretation.

I'd consider the Marx support fair game, given that Suzukaze specifically draws a contrast between Hoshido and his current situation. The other Nohr supports are a lil irrelevant for this, imo, though.

At the end of the day, Suzukaze's kinda just a bit piece in the main plot. It's a shame he didn't get more, buuuut adding more in to the current narrative seems like it'd bog down the two chapters where he's relevant for a bit. He should've just gotten a custom support or two a la Aqua on the Nohr route or some extra enemy dialogue to make it a lil clearer what was going on. I mean... I like getting characters to interpret, but it's kinda nicer when it's because they're legitimately complex like Marx or Camilla and they're clearly complex throughout the narrative, instead of a lil bit or two short of info but otherwise quite straightforward...

Edited October 19, 2015 by blinkingbrave

[Alazen]

Tell me how Suzukaze having a grudge against Hoshido or even looking out for Number One wouldn't be better than what Fates actually did.

[blinkingbrave]

Tell me how Suzukaze having a grudge against Hoshido or even looking out for Number One wouldn't be better than what Fates actually did.

Ah. I don't particularly have a problem with any of those three options (and your second could probably even be interpreted within the confines of canon anyways). As long as there's something within Suzukaze's character I can interpret as consistent with his actions (which I can, in the canon case), I'd still consider the writing fine. My only real issue with it (which is pretty minor and would've existed for any reason for his defection, provided the rest of the writing was the same) is that his defection and the reason for it is given slim attention, so it's hard for me to tell exactly what was going on there, and this is a stark contrast with the rest of his character, which is generally straightforward. Whatever the reason, I felt it just needed to be elaborated on more. Particularly, the chapter where he reunites with Saizou felt like it could've been handled better.

The root 'why' of his defection feels a lil more to me like personal preference, perhaps? Either way, it's so little a part of Suzukaze's character in his supports (and since he gets so little story focus that feels more relevant) changing it one way or the other seems pretty harmless, provided you keep everything else the same. In terms of just writing, it seems far more important to me that Suzukaze's motivations and emotions are clear and justified (which is why I have an issue with his Saizou chapter) than why he defected in the first place.

Edited October 19, 2015 by blinkingbrave

[eclipse]

A LOT of you had said a hell of a lot more about Fates' plot points than I wanted to hear. Kindly requesting spoiler tags (in other words, if I come home tomorrow and don't see them edited in, I will do so myself).

[NekoKnight]

[spoiler=retroactive spoiler, sorry Eclipse-san]1. Kamui's resolution is the same, and by that point in the plot, Kamui and Marx have started to split Nohr into their 'faction'-y thing Aqua later mentions as separate from Garon's Nohr. Suzukaze's comment (at least in my translation) was more along the lines of 'both sides are fighting for justice and we don't know if Hoshido was the 'right' way.' I'd think it's safe to assume, given Marx and Kamui's actions just prior to his statement, that Suzukaze understands they aren't truly allied with Garon (albeit this is muuuuch more complicated in Marx's case) and that the one driving the war, so the enemy both sides are truly fighting, is him. I'd think, particularly by this point in the plot since you have Marx, Leon, and Kamui together, 'Nohr' is more a two part concept than one unified country, and the side Suzukaze references when he mentions both is much more likely Kamui's than Garon's. He doesn't need to be aware of IK shenanigans or Aqua's plan to understand that.

2. Nah, that's fair. Character interpretation is a weird, nebulous ground, and Suzukaze's one of the characters who doesn't get to talk about his mental/moral state very much. The way I understood it, the majority of Nohr and Hoshido were kinda the same for Suzukaze (with Saizou and Kamui as exceptions), so picking a side didn't... matter overly much. Even less so knowing that Kamui was trying to save the maximal number of Hoshidans, meaning on the Nohr route siding with her would actually be the most probable way of keeping her, Saizou, and himself alive. But beyond his betrayal canonically taking place, the 'why' is pretty up to interpretation.

I'd consider the Marx support fair game, given that Suzukaze specifically draws a contrast between Hoshido and his current situation. The other Nohr supports are a lil irrelevant for this, imo, though.

At the end of the day, Suzukaze's kinda just a bit piece in the main plot. It's a shame he didn't get more, buuuut adding more in to the current narrative seems like it'd bog down the two chapters where he's relevant for a bit. He should've just gotten a custom support or two a la Aqua on the Nohr route or some extra enemy dialogue to make it a lil clearer what was going on. I mean... I like getting characters to interpret, but it's kinda nicer when it's because they're legitimately complex like Marx or Camilla and they're clearly complex throughout the narrative, instead of a lil bit or two short of info but otherwise quite straightforward...

Bolded 1: Kamui and Marx to a lesser degree may WANT to oppose Garon, but the fact is, they still follow his orders and the villain's agenda is advanced. Kamui's personal triumphs pale in comparison to the suffering caused by Garon's victory. Suzukaze is supporting Garon by supporting Kamui.

Bolded 2: There would be more of a point to this if Suzukaze sided with you AFTER Hoshido was conquered and occupied, but if he sides with Kamui before, he's assisting in the downfall of his own country. Unless Hoshido's defeat is guaranteed (spoilers, it's not, and that isn't a stated concern for Suzukaze), aiding Kamui, which is indirectly aiding Garon, will lead to more deaths than resisting the invasion. Suzukaze can even kill his own brother, if you set it up! I can't believe that Suzukaze could be so indifferent to his family and countrymen that he doesn't care at all about who wins the war.

Suzukaze is a collaborator without a cause, which is the fault of player worship.

[blinkingbrave]

Tacked some spoiler tags on there. Sorry 'bout that.

Bolded 1: Kamui and Marx to a lesser degree may WANT to oppose Garon, but the fact is, they still follow his orders and the villain's agenda is advanced. Kamui's personal triumphs pale in comparison to the suffering caused by Garon's victory. Suzukaze is supporting Garon by supporting Kamui.

Bolded 2: There would be more of a point to this if Suzukaze sided with you AFTER Hoshido was conquered and occupied, but if he sides with Kamui before, he's assisting in the downfall of his own country. Unless Hoshido's defeat is guaranteed (spoilers, it's not, and that isn't a stated concern for Suzukaze), aiding Kamui, which is indirectly aiding Garon, will lead to more deaths than resisting the invasion. Suzukaze can even kill his own brother, if you set it up! I can't believe that Suzukaze could be so indifferent to his family and countrymen that he doesn't care at all about who wins the war.

Suzukaze is a collaborator without a cause, which is the fault of player worship.

Sounds like we just have different interpretations of some stuff. I don't have much to say that I haven't already at least kinda touched on before, so I'll just leave it at that.

Just figured I should acknowledge ya though as I was posting already about the spoiler tags (sorry again!).

Edited October 19, 2015 by blinkingbrave

[Thane]

Oh come now, I may be a big critic of Fate's writing but worse than Dragon Age II? That's a game I stopped playing in the first act because of how awful the story was.

muh mage vs Templar conflict, forever and ever

Dragon Age II is an absolute wreck of a game both in terms of story and gameplay. The characters are horribly written except for Varrick and maybe Carver (which is why the former is the only one to make a reappearance in Inquisition), the city uninteresting, the story arcs disconnected and at the end it feels more like it was just to set up the third game rather than being its own thing.

However, all of those story problems could apply to Fates as well, and if there's one thing even Dragon Age II manages to do it's portraying the conflict as at least somewhat complicated: mages are potentially incredibly dangerous and need to be watched, but to what extent? There's a reason for different characters to have different beliefs and act accordingly. Needless to say, Fates does not do this; hell, it doesn't even try to. It's a complete black and white conflict where characters never act logically, and only make decisions that come out seemingly out of nowhere or because the plot hamfists an excuse.

Once Garon has had his convenient evil monologue, Xander realizes that starting an unnecessary war might not actually be what's best for the country, and joins everyone else. His only real reason for fighting was because daddy said so. There's no differences in beliefs, no cultural barriers, no nothing; everyone is on the same side immediately once Xander stops being an idiot, and Hydra removes any form of tension, complexity and shades of gray the story could ever have hoped to have.

It's an absolute mess that fails to do every single thing it aspired to. Just look at Conquest's story and compare it to what was promised and what we actually got.

No disrespect, but I really have to question this. Maybe it's just my natural inclination against hyperbole talking here. I've seen many criticisms of Fates' story, but nothing to suggest it's Metroid: Other M tier.

Hey, this is a forum, you're supposed to question me if I say something stupid.

I've never played Other M though, so maybe that's why. I've heard it's an abomination, much like Sonic 06, although to be fair, the latter is about a blue mutant hedgehog running quickly; I remember playing a few games as a kid and oh boy, the stories are always dreadful.

However, out of all the games I've played (and they're quite a few), no game that's had a proper story (meaning games like Super Mario are excluded) has ever failed so utterly as Fates to portray a conflict, a cast of characters or even the world they're in. I think what I mentioned earlier in the post about characters acting completely illogically is one of the things that bother me the most, since it shows the writers didn't have the skills to write characters acting like characters, but rather used them as puppets doing whatever the story demanded - hell, once again, even in Dragon Age II, characters can leave you if you mess up too badly or go against what they believe in. The game would've been a lot shorter if the cast could think for themselves, because Garon would hardly even survive the prologue (mild exaggeration, but you get my point).

And this is all without going into the deus ex machina, convoluted plots, horrible dialogue, DLC that tried to expand upon the world but failed to do so and instead just showed us that

Severa, Inigo and Owain are utter morons who didn't even try to defeat Hydra, and kept invading Hoshido even though they knew it was wrong and had magic orbs that would enable them to return home at any time.

etc etc.

It's also the only game I've played where the game itself calls two thirds of its own plot wrong.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Thane

[Ryo]

1. Kamui's resolution is the same, and by that point in the plot, Kamui and Marx have started to split Nohr into their 'faction'-y thing Aqua later mentions as separate from Garon's Nohr. Suzukaze's comment (at least in my translation) was more along the lines of 'both sides are fighting for justice and we don't know if Hoshido was the 'right' way.' I'd think it's safe to assume, given Marx and Kamui's actions just prior to his statement, that Suzukaze understands they aren't truly allied with Garon (albeit this is muuuuch more complicated in Marx's case) and that the one driving the war, so the enemy both sides are truly fighting, is him. I'd think, particularly by this point in the plot since you have Marx, Leon, and Kamui together, 'Nohr' is more a two part concept than one unified country, and the side Suzukaze references when he mentions both is much more likely Kamui's than Garon's. He doesn't need to be aware of IK shenanigans or Aqua's plan to understand that.

@Bold part:

While I admit that I used the wrong word (been a while since I read the dialogues), Suzukaze's line (especially the bold part) still clearly indicated that he's fighting for what he (and Nohr) thinks is "justice". However, "justice" isn't what I would use to describe the fact that they're invading a peaceful country and killing its people, which, again, is not part of what Kamui promised they would do. Regardless of whether he's actually supporting Garon or not, he still consciously does what Garon wants without any second thought (or at least the game doesn't show us any). Of course, they're not killing anyone at this point yet, but they will later, and he still assists them when that time comes, which makes no difference.

I, however, agree with your sentiment that the story has done a very good job of not explaining anything regarding Suzukaze's motivations and where he stands in this whole matter. We don't even know why he thought it would be a good idea to follow Kamui in the first place either. He just... did.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Ryo

[NekoKnight]

Dragon Age II is an absolute wreck of a game both in terms of story and gameplay. The characters are horribly written except for Varrick and maybe Carver (which is why the former is the only one to make a reappearance in Inquisition), the city uninteresting, the story arcs disconnected and at the end it feels more like it was just to set up the third game rather than being its own thing.

However, all of those story problems could apply to Fates as well, and if there's one thing even Dragon Age II manages to do it's portraying the conflict as at least somewhat complicated: mages are potentially incredibly dangerous and need to be watched, but to what extent? There's a reason for different characters to have different beliefs and act accordingly. Needless to say, Fates does not do this; hell, it doesn't even try to. It's a complete black and white conflict where characters never act logically, and only make decisions that come out seemingly out of nowhere or because the plot hamfists an excuse.

Once Garon has had his convenient evil monologue, Xander realizes that starting an unnecessary war might not actually be what's best for the country, and joins everyone else. His only real reason for fighting was because daddy said so. There's no differences in beliefs, no cultural barriers, no nothing; everyone is on the same side immediately once Xander stops being an idiot, and Hydra removes any form of tension, complexity and shades of gray the story could ever have hoped to have.

It's an absolute mess that fails to do every single thing it aspired to. Just look at Conquest's story and compare it to what was promised and what we actually got.

The mage/templar conflict was interesting and a positive example of world building... when it was covered in Dragon Age: Origins. Not only was DAII completely obsessed with that conflict (every other line from Fenris and Anders is "mages are eeeeevil" and "templars are meeeeeanies!", respectively) but it doesn't even do a good job at making it morally grey. Both sides constantly prove the worst stereotypes about their faction, making both of them unsympathetic. As awful as Fate's black vs white story is, I'll take it over asshole faction vs asshole faction.

On the subject of personal avatars, I'd still say DAII did it worse. You are supposedly given a lot of control over what Hawk does (with wonderful dialogue options such as 'saintly', 'puppy kicker' and 'smug assclown'), he still mostly acts as a bystander in the conflict. Nothing he does really changes the flow of the story. This is even less excusable than Fates, because they had all the dialogue and time necessary to let you shape the character and story as you want.

There are always worse stories, so "worst in recent memory" is probably a more appropriate title for Fates.

I've never played Other M though, so maybe that's why. I've heard it's an abomination

If you have even the slightest investment in Metroid, or even if you don't, count yourself blessed for having not witnessed that travesty. It's not hyperbole to call that game a character assassination of Samus Aran.

Tacked some spoiler tags on there. Sorry 'bout that.

Sounds like we just have different interpretations of some stuff. I don't have much to say that I haven't already at least kinda touched on before, so I'll just leave it at that.

Just figured I should acknowledge ya though as I was posting already about the spoiler tags (sorry again!).

You post a lot of unpopular opinions around here so it probably gets tedious responding to everyone. Thanks for the acknowledgement!

Edited October 19, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Alazen]

''asshole faction vs asshole faction'' is certainly better for settings like DA or FE than White and Black.I don't see how that wouldn't be a step-up for Fates.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Alazen

[Thane]

The mage/templar conflict was interesting and a positive example of world building... when it was covered in Dragon Age: Origins. Not only was DAII completely obsessed with that conflict (every other line from Fenris and Anders is "mages are eeeeevil" and "templars are meeeeeanies!", respectively) but it doesn't even do a good job at making it morally grey. Both sides constantly prove the worst stereotypes about their faction, making both of them unsympathetic. As awful as Fate's black vs white story is, I'll take it over asshole faction vs asshole faction.

On the subject of personal avatars, I'd still say DAII did it worse. You are supposedly given a lot of control over what Hawk does (with wonderful dialogue options such as 'saintly', 'puppy kicker' and 'smug assclown'), he still mostly acts as a bystander in the conflict. Nothing he does really changes the flow of the story. This is even less excusable than Fates, because they had all the dialogue and time necessary to let you shape the character and story as you want.

No one is denying that Dragon Age II is a complete trainwreck and horribly written to the point where it feels like some lines come straight out of a fanfic given how edgy and angsty they are. More than a few characters are also beyond stupid, and I'm still disappointed over the fact that I couldn't grab Merrill by the shoulders and shake her until she realized she was being a complete and utter moron.

However, like I said, people at least have a REASON for thinking the way they do - Fenris is a godawful character but at least he's got some background and motivations; Anders is the dullest piece of cardboard ever after his character was assassinated in Awakening, but at least he has experienced the conflict firsthand and tries to do something about it.

In Fates, there are no sides because only one path is right according to the very game itself.

As for Hawke and Kamui, they're both horrendous avatars, but at least Hawke tries to do something to improve his own life, whereas Kamui has to get told by everyone what he is supposed to be doing next.

There are always worse stories, so "worst in recent memory" is probably a more appropriate title for Fates.

If you have even the slightest investment in Metroid, or even if you don't, count yourself blessed for having not witnessed that travesty. It's not hyperbole to call that game a character assassination of Samus Aran.

There are always worse stories. I just said that this is the worst video game story I've ever played. In terms of fiction overall; it's probably still not as painful as Naruto, for instance, although I have no reason or desire to compare the two, since it would involve a lot of headaches and hair pulling.

Hm let's see...stale narration, one of the strongest and most prominent women in the industry becomes a damsel in distress, butt shots, ignoring the other games...those are some of the complaints I've heard.

[Alazen]

Even Mass Effect 3 isn't down there with Fates.

[NekoKnight]

''asshole faction vs asshole faction'' is certainly better for settings like DA or FE than White and Black.I don't see how that wouldn't be a step-up for Fates.

Not really. Games like DAII have no one I want to root for so there's nothing to get invested in. I don't see why you think "everyone is an asshole" fits FE (or even DA). People want nuanced factions, not everyone to be jerks.

Hm let's see...stale narration, one of the strongest and most prominent women in the industry becomes a damsel in distress, butt shots, ignoring the other games...those are some of the complaints I've heard.

The most problematic element is her abusive relationship with her superior officer being framed as a positive thing. This article discusses the game's flaws in greater detail.

Edited October 19, 2015 by NekoKnight

[Alazen]

Nohr and Hoshido are the dominant forces of the West and East respectively. Their governments could both have policies that are predatory, or are at least doing what they can to keep their neighbors under their thumbs. Hoshido in particular could have been revealed to engage in war crimes against enemies, or to have ethnically cleansed Rinka's culture.

''asshole faction vs asshole faction'' as you call it can have a place in FE.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Alazen

[Ryo]

I think we're getting off-topic here...

[Water Mage]

Nohr and Hoshido are the dominant forces of the West and East respectively. Their governments could both have policies that are predatory, or are at least doing what they can to keep their neighbors under their thumbs. Hoshido in particular could have been revealed to engage in war crimes against enemies, or to have ethnically cleansed Rinka's culture.

''asshole faction vs asshole faction'' as you call it can have a place in FE.

That wouldn't work in Fates's story I think.

Having an "asshole faction vs asshole faction" would go against the whole choosing a side you sympathize with.

And I think having Kamui regret his choice, regardless of the path he took, because both sides are assholes, wouldn't make for a good story.

Edited October 19, 2015 by Water Mage

[TanatatKnight]

That wouldn't work in Fates's story I think.

Having an "asshole faction vs asshole faction" would go against the whole choosing a side you sympathize with.

And I think having Kamui regret his choice, regardless of the path he took, because both sides are assholes, wouldn't make for a good story.

Well not exactly "asshole vs asshole" and more of having them be morally ambiguous.