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Do you hate Avatar character(s)? If so, why?


HTakara82
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Do you hate Avatar Character(s)?  

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  1. 1. If Yes, Why?

    • Yes
      47
    • No
      99
    • Indifferent
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They feel much less like actual characters. Like even Roy is less cardboard than Kris/Robin/Kamui, and thats saying quite alot.

Kris, for example took many of Jeigan and Marths lines and stuff and added in a useless subplot.

Robin took the spotlight away from Chrom when we needed much much better characterization of Chrom which basically ended up with him looking like an even more Reckless Sigurd but who doesn't get punished for being reckless, and being constantly praised for everything when tacticians in the past FE's never got that universal praise.

Kamui I cannot comment on currently, but from how wishywashy he/she seem to be and just the heaps of unearned praise and the amount of character development they take from other characters just so they can praise him/her is a bit disgusting.

Marth is the uncertain warrior prince, dedicated to saving his sister and reclaiming his land, he is a bit of a goody good, but also cannot forgive Gra, he even mentions it himself. He has doubts, he feels human.

Alm, is just a badass not much characterization there, but the player can infer for him and Cecilia

Sigurd, Brash, Reckless, Noble. Makes mistake after mistake by simply doing what he feels is right, eventually catches up with him

Celice, Noble, honest, more calm then his Father

Leif, a rebel with a cause, who has to go through absolute hell and makes tactical error after tactical error, costing people their lives. But he improves and perseveres

Roy, A romantic thinker and tactical prodigy not much of a fighter, Young Commander of an army which he must get together after the tragic passing of its former leader.

Eliwood, a noble, just, tries to sort things out with reason, yet is prone to make illogical emotional choices.

Hector, a brash and loyal friend, always aims to get things done, but can be quick in his choices. Learns to become more of a leader as the game goes on

Lyn, Wildwoman of the plains born into royalty that she didn't know, has to constantly deal with politics and stuff she'd rather not

Eirika, naive but just Princess, she grows into a more queenly figure

Ephraim, warrior tactician with a daring attitude but his reckless behavior does have a few consequences

Ike, a mercenary who grows from a young lad to a leader in a span of a brutal year of having to take the reigns from his father, often struggles with some early recklessness which nearly gets people killed and his blunt attitude with nobles

Micaiah, a rebel who has to struggle with her dual bloodline and the very people she loves cursing people such as her, who struggles to do what she feels is right.

All of these characters are much better then any Avatar we've ever gotten.

Kamui can be written just as romantically as you have written everyone else.

Kamui: kidnapped from a young age, and had his memory wiped to serve the kingdom that killed his foster father. Struggles with the decision of going back to his home country or to stay with people he was brainwashed to believe was his family, either way, he'll be faced with decisions that can cause the deaths of his loved ones.

Edited by HTakara82
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The problem is that it isn't just a character that's a Mary Sue, it's you as one. It's wish fulfillment and while I don't mind it sometimes (I enjoyed Robin) Kamui is overblown, overdone, and boring. And those

Deaths? They're all avoidable besides two in the "canon" ending. Izana and Crimson are the only ones who die out of his fault. And both of them are to PROTECT them. Do they get punished for it? Izana nets them Takumi. Crimson helps break out Gunter. No. Not really. They don't.

Avoidable or not, it's still a consequence of your decisions.

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Avoidable or not, it's still a consequence of your decisions.

A "consequence" of killing off characters who appeared for only a few chapters, oh no. And then are immediately replaced. Oh no. And die for you, the player, and die with no regrets for your cause. Oh no. I admit I forgot Lilith, but her death was pretty dumb in all honesty. There are no characters that react to their deaths, or at least blame Kamui for them.

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I don't mind Avatars, but I prefer the FE7 route since it's easier to portray your own personality on him. If he could only kill things, Mark would be perfect

I have to say I actually like them, since I can screw around and say make Robin Solid Snake or some crap like that, but I won't lose sleep over it without one. I honestly wish I was kidding about making a Solid Snake avatar

I rarely make them after myself tho, so my opinion may be affected by that. I typically base them off other video game characters, so they get their flaws from there, combined with what few the games give them.

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August did NOT, DID NOT hate Leif. How could you ever think he did?

I always got the impression August resented this job. He was only there because Levin ordered him to help Leif.

Hate is probably too strong, but he certainly wasn't afraid to put Leif down, which wouldn't be the case if Leif was a self-insert.

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My problem with the Avatars is that on the one hand they are relatively plain 'blank slate' characters so that the player can project onto them, but at the same time the player doesn't have enough control over them to make them true player-defined characters. They are sort of like a Visual Novel protagonist: you name them and make one or two decisions for them, but have no control over their actual personality, dialogue or opinions (the stuff that actually defines a character).

I don't hate them, but I see no need for them. I like full player control main characters like those in western RPG's and well written pre-defined protagonists, but the 'half and half' Fire Emblem gives us just doesn't do anything for me. Not enough player choice to feel like my own character and not enough going on to be interesting in their own right.

Edited by EJ107
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The Avatar character actually has a lot of potential for a good plot and immersion if executed well. I actually had high expectation for Fates in that regards when the first few waves of pre-release materials came out.

However, avatars like Kamui fails even as a self-insert. They had established personality and lines of thinking that you cannot relate to and have no control over with. I personally am even embarrassed to think that Kamui is someone that represents me in this game.

You also cannot dictate how the story will go, the players are simply watchers, which makes no difference if the idea of Kamui being a self-insert is removed and they're simply a protagonist of the story. Beside the choice, whatever Kamui's doing after that point are their decisions and actions, not yours. The way FE handles the avatar in the last few games isn't actually putting an emphasis on the self-insert nature of the avatar itself, but on player-pandering and fan-service.

Not to mention that the writers are always afraid to vilify the player character, because it's like offending the players themselves. Whenever something goes wrong, either there would almost always be some ways to get behind it, or said character would be forgiven by everyone important. While certain FE lords aren't much better, but when a protagonist isn't a self-insert, IS wouldn't have to take any risk/backlash when calling them out on their shits [if they're really willing to walk that direction, ofc].

Edited by Ryo
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A "consequence" of killing off characters who appeared for only a few chapters, oh no. And then are immediately replaced. Oh no. And die for you, the player, and die with no regrets for your cause. Oh no. I admit I forgot Lilith, but her death was pretty dumb in all honesty. There are no characters that react to their deaths, or at least blame Kamui for them.

no matter how you try to dress it, it's still a consequence. The Nohr family were established as people who are very close despite the circumstances. And the Hoshido, are thought to be blood related, and narratively speaking, were very close to you before your kidnapping. And why would someone from Hoshido or Nohr, call you a bad boy for killing the enemy?

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I take issue with the idea of everyone saying "it was okay when the other Lords did it because they're not supposed to represent the player" but the thing is... I don't know about anyone else... but I never felt that any of the MUs when I played were me. The way Robin does things is not the way that I would, the way Kamui apparently does things doesn't seem to be me either. Robin and Kamui are their own characters, not blank slates that the player can impose themselves upon. They aren't even really relatable because one has amnesia and the other is royalty who finds out they were kidnapped. Not to mention that whole gambit where Robin does stuff near the end of the game that the player doesn't know about, which doesn't really seem to gel with the ideal that Robin is supposed to represent the player.

And regarding FE7's Tactician, that just felt tacked on and didn't contribute anything.

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I take issue with the idea of everyone saying "it was okay when the other Lords did it because they're not supposed to represent the player" but the thing is... I don't know about anyone else... but I never felt that any of the MUs when I played were me. The way Robin does things is not the way that I would, the way Kamui apparently does things doesn't seem to be me either. Robin and Kamui are their own characters, not blank slates that the player can impose themselves upon. They aren't even really relatable because one has amnesia and the other is royalty who finds out they were kidnapped. Not to mention that whole gambit where Robin does stuff near the end of the game that the player doesn't know about, which doesn't really seem to gel with the ideal that Robin is supposed to represent the player.

And regarding FE7's Tactician, that just felt tacked on and didn't contribute anything.

Well, the thing is, the MUs are supposed to be self-inserts. Whether or not we, the player, actually self-insert though them is a different story. But they are deliberately written to be blank enough for us to become them, so to speak. I dont self-insert on my MUs either, but its really not the point? They are like the wish fulfillment character that doesnt do any wrong. They are made to represent what we, the player, may feel if we were the amnesiac tactician found by Chrom, or the royal kidnapped by the other nation. (or a cadet being recruited by Marth to serve under him.) We get to choose reactions (despite how little a difference they made) in some instances. We get to "marry" characters to this character and the confession scenes seem to be to us, not just Robin/Kamui. Robin's gambit near the end of the game is supposed to be a plot twist. (a bad one but yeah) That seemingly meaningless prologue in the game is supposed to allude to this plot. Its just badly written anyway but yeah. Robin was still intended to be some form of us. Kamui, same story.

FE7 Mark was more of a self-insert, actually, because we didnt see them really, and they had no dialogue. But it was also the better kind of self-insert because Mark didnt get in the way of the story.

You don't like to be challenged and have your thoughts extrapolated do you?

LMAO, speak for yourself, chumpy. You ask a question, inviting discussion, then attempt to shoot it down. Give me a break.

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OP, if you keep trying to shut down discussion, why did you bother fucking asking us our thoughts on this? Gods.

He's trying to show that you shouldn't have bad thoughts about Fates. :Lilina:

I take issue with the idea of everyone saying "it was okay when the other Lords did it because they're not supposed to represent the player" but the thing is... I don't know about anyone else... but I never felt that any of the MUs when I played were me. The way Robin does things is not the way that I would, the way Kamui apparently does things doesn't seem to be me either. Robin and Kamui are their own characters, not blank slates that the player can impose themselves upon. They aren't even really relatable because one has amnesia and the other is royalty who finds out they were kidnapped. Not to mention that whole gambit where Robin does stuff near the end of the game that the player doesn't know about, which doesn't really seem to gel with the ideal that Robin is supposed to represent the player.

You name them, customise them, and in Kamui's case, you control at least one choice they make in the narrative.

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In theory, no, I like being able to customize a character, and FE7's Mark who interacts with the characters was a nice touch. In practice, Robin and Kamui feel more like bland over-pandering from the developers to the player than actual characters.

Basically a Mark who happens to be a unit but isn't super-important to the story would be ideal. And I'd make them a silent character with occasional dialogue options.

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He's trying to show that you shouldn't have bad thoughts about Fates. :Lilina:

Fat chance of that lmao. Like, the most divisive game in the series and we arent supposed to have single negative thought about it?

tumblr_lzuuq2RrPS1ql141xo1_250.gif

In theory, no, I like being able to customize a character, and FE7's Mark who interacts with the characters was a nice touch. In practice, Robin and Kamui feel more like bland over-pandering from the developers to the player than actual characters.

Basically a Mark who happens to be a unit but isn't super-important to the story would be ideal. And I'd make them a silent character with occasional dialogue options.

Yeah i actually agree. A customizable MU who CAN pair with other characters, but doesnt have that kind of focus in the story would be goodshit.txt.

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I like Avatars if they're empty slates. If they don't have any complicated backstory or predetermined personality. That gives you a lot more freedom to headcanon with them.

Robin and Corrin are avatars without anything I actually like about avatars. They both have cliche, predetermined personalities. You have no choice on their starting class, and very limited choices as far as their actual customization goes. They both have backstories. And then the game tells you that character is you. I'm can barely relate to Robin, and I can relate even less with what I know of Corrin. I'm supposed to pretend I am them?

If in the next FE game, they add dialouge trees and more customization(and hopefully some other choices for a base class), I'll be far happier with them. Remove any predetermined dramatic backstory on top of that, and I'll accept them with open arms. But the avatars they have now just feel really awkward to me.

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I personally have no problem with a protagonist being the avatar if and only if the game allows me to define my own character, allows me to influence the story's direction basing on my own actions (i.e don't just give us one choice and be done with it), and most importantly, don't make other characters go around licking my boots.

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I personally have no problem with a protagonist being the avatar if and only if the game allows me to define my own character, allows me to influence the story's direction basing on my own actions (i.e don't just give us one choice and be done with it), and most importantly, don't make other characters go around licking my boots.

This.

Personally this bothered me a lot and not just because its clear fanservice, but because in general I hate feeling like I'm put on a pedestal and told I'm the best around. It makes me uncomfortable and uneasy, and it's something I never enjoy, even in a video game.

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i thought kris was okay since he didnt really exist. sure there were some scenes but i dont think he took away the limelight from marth. back in my day the only way to insert yourself into a game was to hack yourself in. so i grew up with the MU stuff like most of us. i think its dumb, but to be fair its FE catering to a new group of fans. which is completely fine.

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I think I'm in the wouldn't-mind-my-self-insert-being-just-a-tactician-scrub-and-not-a-walking-plot-device crowd.

I didn't mind Robin. Kamui seems to have taken plot-driven stupidity to another level, though.

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I guess I don't see Robin and Kamui as self-inserts, so their existence doesn't terribly bother me (not that there's really anything wrong with self-inserts either). I tend to keep it all the canon set-up anyways.

Not to mention Robin and Kamui are better than Mark, which was just plain awkward.

Edited by blinkingbrave
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I don't hate avatar characters

But I voted yes anyway because I hate Fire Emblem's execution of them

Mark is the only one I don't hate and that's as much as I can really say. He's tacked on as fuck but they don't try to force him into the story. It's not good, but it's tolerable. Characters like Chris, Robin, and Kamui just bother me because of how badly written they can be and how much they can take away from the story.

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I admit I forgot Lilith, but her death was pretty dumb in all honesty.

L-Lilith dies?! AND YOU CAN'T PREVENT IT?! NOOOOO. HOW COULD THEY!? D: That's the most heartbreaking thing I've heard about this entire game! Why would you kill off the cutest creature FE has ever seen?! Oh my god my heart has just sank. This is what I get for reading spoilers...

Anyway, on topic...

I personally didn't mind Kris, even though everybody bashes them. They weren't actually anyone special. A great warrior with some tactics knowledge, but nothing truly special. The main thing they had going for them was that they were Marth's confidant; which, IS a trait of Mary Sues, given that NMotE was a remake, but I find it to be a far more tolerable one than what we have with Robin and, unless Localization does an extreme overhaul, Kamui.

Also, I hate Ike with a fiery passion, so I'm not even biased here. Ike is just as bad a sue as Robin, because he starts a deuteragonist and then just completely steals the fucking spotlight. MICAIAH is the one on the cover art, not Ike. Ugh, thinking about it makes my blood boil...

What I hate is when the main character 1: gets away with everything they do, 2: is given plot-powers that overshadow LITERALLY everyone else, and/or 3: is given social prowess that makes no fucking sense. Why can Robin support with everyone, when everybody else theoretically COULD, too? S-Ranking everyone is absolute bullshit.

Micaiah falls victim to point 2, but only significantly during Part 4 of RD. And... To be honest, RD's writing undergoes an extreme dropoff in Pt4. The dialogue is so terribly stilted and unnatural. I think it's probably the result of a lot of content having to be cut, as I've heard stories that RD was supposed to be an even bigger game than it already is. (Holy shit.) I actually really don't like Yune. Micaiah's not a sue, Yune is. Which is actually pretty fucking hilarious because she's downright a DEITY. Yune does get me to feel for her, but some of the shit that gets pulled just... Ugh. I hate it.

Back on the Avatar debate... I think that if IS wants to have bullshit self-insert Avatars, then they need to go full-on Shin Megami Tensei level Avatars; as in, you decide all of their choices. The characters we have as avatars right now, are NOT avatars. (Well except Robin, but he's the Avatar of Grima, not the player. Clever move, localization team...) They're characters who have an appearance and name we can change, but they're only reflections of ourselves by their choice of spouse, if applicable. And sometimes not even then, depending on how they go about it. After all, I'm a lesbian, but F!Robin can't marry any girls, and F!Kamui can only marry like what, two?

Anyway, point being, these characters are literally just bad characters who get away with things because they carry a name and appearance we give to them. And they also get bashed for things for the very same reason.

Unless IS will make the Avatar characters actual reflections of the player, the god damn idea needs to just be scrapped.

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