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Do you hate Avatar character(s)? If so, why?


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Do you hate Avatar Character(s)?  

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  1. 1. If Yes, Why?

    • Yes
      47
    • No
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    • Indifferent
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I, normally, don't care about if there is an Avatar or not. It's all about how they're portrayed. The MU's in FE:A and Fates is supposed to be 'My Unit', but it's really not. I'm just making some decisions for some stupid character that's supposed to be a Mary/Gary Sue/Stu. These MU's also have no boundaries. I can be any class I want, use any weapon, marry anyone weather I like them or not because they just make excuses that you allowed to (Seriously, this last one, even I couldn't be able to pick up every girl). These avatars have no connection with me and have nothing to do with me.

I'm into characters where I can place myself in the characters place, characters such as Chrono from Chrono Trigger or the trainer in Pokemon, Commander Shepard or even the adventurer in Skyrim. It's not just that these characters barely talk, but because my actions speak for me and I get to have a choice on how to act. But these MU's have a personality not like mine at all. I get no choice in dialog or story paths (Which ironically isn't in this game). I think this could be fixed if maybe there was a 30 question survey maybe asking what your personality is like. Outgoing, easily angered or manipulated, soloist or a guy who fits with groups of people. With this, they can forge you to create a story around you and make it impact you better.

Edited by Great Geargia Gateway
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I hate Kamui so much.

Robin I'm ok with and I haven't played FE12 yet.

Kamui is so annoying I wish I could just kill him off.

It doesn't help that I played Thracia for the first time and saw Leaf get punished by being a dumbass while Kamui just gets away with everything.

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"Hate" is a strong word, not to be used freely.

I don't hate the concept of an Avatar; however, I strongly dislike the implementation of Avatars as they are self-inserts to be pandered to and have the story revolve around them. IS has had three shots at them, and it's been pretty much the same thing all three times.

*snip*

Goodness me, I thought no one would mention this! It really takes me out of scenes when they can't show me the protagonist's face. This is the main character, and I'm not even allowed to see them? Take the customization out, if that's the best they can do.

*snip*

Wouldn't it be cool in they made a Shin Megami Tensei and Fire Emblem cross over?

As if that would happen!

But isn't Male, all defaults canon because of a certain cutscene?

And way to rub it in.

Edited by The DanMan
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I, normally, don't care about if there is an Avatar or not. It's all about how they're portrayed. The MU's in FE:A and Fates is supposed to be 'My Unit', but it's really not. I'm just making some decisions for some stupid character that's supposed to be a Mary/Gary Sue/Stu. These MU's also have no boundaries. I can be any class I want, use any weapon, marry anyone weather I like them or not because they just make excuses that you allowed to (Seriously, this last one, even I couldn't be able to pick up every girl). These avatars have no connection with me and have nothing to do with me.

I'm into characters where I can place myself in the characters place, characters such as Chrono from Chrono Trigger or the trainer in Pokemon, Commander Shepard or even the adventurer in Skyrim. It's not just that these characters barely talk, but because my actions speak for me and I get to have a choice on how to act. But these MU's have a personality not like mine at all. I get no choice in dialog or story paths (Which ironically isn't in this game). I think this could be fixed if maybe there was a 30 question survey maybe asking what your personality is like. Outgoing, easily angered or manipulated, soloist or a guy who fits with groups of people. With this, they can forge you to create a story around you and make it impact you better.

This is my major problem with Kamui, and I think Great Geargia sums it up pretty well especially with Fates. Now I present a much more simpler but lazy option in which that maybe you don't have to change the entire story path based on your choices because it could be too much work but just some simple Pokemon Mystery Dungeon dialogue option could have been fine. Characters react to your dialogue choice and comment on it, but it doesn't affect the entire story, this become extermely fun especially in supports where you can have the characters remember what you said and comment on it, giving more incentive to try other branch options, it lazy but I would accept just that. If they want to make it a full-on personality test, then include options that impact those choices. For example, If I am an outgoing character; I might not be able to support with someone like Benoit because he is quiet but I am able to support with Lazward because we are compatible. Another option is that, we can limit our supports as we pick who we want to be friends with. For example I am only able to have a total of 5 units (Aside from your children) that I can support with including your S rank partner (Your love interest) and one A+ partner (Your best friend) as soon as I pick the last person to support with, everyone else is locked out. I also don't mind if people want Avatars to be an OP Mary Sue-like character, but leave that as new game+ option where you can just do whatever.

Edited by TanatatKnight
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This is how I see things.

Fire Emblem is still a jRPG a strategy jRPG but still, a jRPGs never have complete character insertions, with the exception of mute characters, jRPGs are more focused on character interactions and development, so unless IS all of a sudden becomes a western studio, or decides to let a western 3rd party handle it... oh dear god, I hope not... it'll never change drastically.

On the flip side, WRPG, have very little character focus, mostly on the MC, because the MC is suppose to you, which can be extremely boring if you don't have that RPing mindset... that includes me, I can never RP. I see a lot of people mentioning "choice", all WRPGs do is give the illusion of choice, all those dialogue choices and such, means nothing in the long run. Like for instance one of my favorite RPGs of all time, Baldur's Gate II, no matter who you kill, how much of a good/bad guy you are, you still in the end save Imoen and kill Irenicus. And with the Throne of Bhaal expansion that ends the saga, there's only a few factors that effects your ending. A. Who did you hook up with? B. What's your reputation? C. Did you Decide to become a God or stay a Mortal?, everything felt so inconsequential, nothing you did before reaching the end mattered. That's how it felt with pretty much every Bioware game. I couldn't care less about dialogue trees, it's a hassle, but it's probably because I'm not an RPer.

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I don't hate them as much as dislike them. I mean, all things considered, I found Robin decent enough. But if we have to have Avatars, I want them to do it right:

- Not the Main Character, but rather a Secondary One (I miss pre-established lords, and Shouzou Kaga himself said that the lord should always be pre-determined. I agree with him)

- More options (Give us skin tone, eye colour, etc. for appearance. For personality I feel a dialogue whell is in order. If IS wants to make a game where your choices impact the story, make a game where your choices impact the story!)

- Determine Class (Like Kris)

- Stop the player worship!!! (Coming back to the idea of a dialogue wheel, I feel choices in the story should be responded to accordingly. If a choice is made that negatively affects the world, do not praise the Avatar, if a choice is made that positively affects the plot, don't view the avatar as a god so much as a keen strategist.)

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I think the better question would be "do you hate the implementation of Avatar characters in Fire Emblem", which I would resoundingly agree with. And a further question behind that would be "What's the point behind Avatar characters anyway?". There's certainly a degree of fun to be had customising your a unit aesthetically and having a little bit of a say over their growths and such but trying to argue this is the primary reason they exist is being disingenuous.

It's fairly obvious that there is meant to be some sort of connection between the player and the Avatar. Characters look at the screen and address the player in FE7 for example. FE12 is very explict about this as well, when you're creating your Avatar Anna breaks the fourth wall and addresses the player and calls you a hero and asks about your name and past. In FE13 Robin is the Tactician and "sees" all the info you can see about stats and the like, and is credited with formulating the strategies the player would to achieve success, various cutscenes are done through first person view, as are confession scenes, and you can support/marry just about everyone. I don't really know the specifics about FE14 but I doubt much has changed in that regard, and you certainly choose how to go about marriage, building things or groping your units in more PoV stuff so I'm pretty sure there's plenty more reinforcable points about a player character connection.

So why is there a connection? What's the point of that? The most general answer would be that it's meant to create a degree of attachment and a feeling of personal involvement in the world as presented to the player, rather than simply acting as an observer. This principle is fine, getting the player more invested in the game translates to a more engaging experience. However you have to actually attempt to maintain this status, and this is basically the crux of the issue.

FE7 did absoloutely nothing to break the connection between the player and the Tactician, beacuse the Tactician never actually gets to say anything. Their only role is exactly what the player does; ordering units around on the battlefield. This is extremely bland.

FE12 added actual character traits to Kris. This creates a rift between the player and the Avatar, but doesn't really sever it. The player is aware that Kris is "My Unit" and that Kris functions as a vessel for the player, but the lack of identification with the character results in an awareness that causes the player to view the story as an observer anyway, without being able to see Kris as a standalone character in their own right. Rather than just observing the events of the narrative relating to Kris and taking them at face value as an observer, one cannot help but interpreting those events with the knowledge of Kris as some kind of self-insert. That leads to greater dissatisfaction and scrutiny because many events are seen to be attempting to elevate the player and their importance at the cost of other aspects of the narrative. Or rather, it creates the view that there's a subtraction in the actual game world to attempt to add to something not part of that world (the player). FE is occasionally self aware but it's hardly postmodern, so there isn't really anything that can be further extrapolated from this kind of observing yourself observing the game line of thinking, and it only really serves to further remove the player from the occurances within the game world.

FE13 has pretty much all the same problems amplified (although Robin is probably better written than Kris is, but then again, fan translations), and FE14 seems to have the same problem again.

Obviously, not everyone actually thinks about things like this in the same way, and there are people who have higher capacity for suspension of disbelief than others. In fact, some games thrive on being self aware and deliberately encouraging this kind of "meta-think", and then engaging with the player's own thoughts that go past the actual game world excellently, whilst intertwining that with an in world narrative (Metal Gear Solid titles are an easy and prolific example). But Fire Emblem really doesn't strive to do anything like this, and it probably never will, and it's own systems and stories don't sustain analysis like that very well either. Introducing elements that lead to suspension breaking critique in moment to moment dialogues is a recipe for disaster if players think critically and you don't work to direct those types of thoughts.

The "solution" to problems like these is basically for people to "stop overthinking" things. Turn your brain off, as they say. That's what Fire Emblem is meant to be now in many respects WRT to everything that isn't core tactical gameplay. But frankly, that's pretty hard to do if you like thinking about things, and you can't really "unthink" that either.

Edited by Irysa
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Maybe in the future we might or might not have an avatar as the main lord, but as it is right now, it seems too difficult to implement.....

Well, that, or they're just lazy to implement it (right)

..For a certain definition, of what is right......

Personally speaking, my viewpoints give the impression that, I feel that the developers didn't put in much effort, couldn't be bothered to (or just couldn't) write a good story, etc. If the developers, however, "genuinely" felt that they did I good job, I honestly wouldn't know what to say

For the thing about Avatars...I guess, it's easy to forget, that "in the past", some things didn't exist

(For example, I've already kind of forgotten how people used to live without smartphones and tablets. You could argue that it's just that my memory sucks)

Since FE11 it's been quite a number of years since we had a game without an avatar, that is.

(Honestly speaking I'm not too overly disappointed really. I'm just..."voicing my slight dissatisfaction")

Edited by CocoaGalaxy
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This is how I see things.

Fire Emblem is still a jRPG a strategy jRPG but still, a jRPGs never have complete character insertions, with the exception of mute characters, jRPGs are more focused on character interactions and development, so unless IS all of a sudden becomes a western studio, or decides to let a western 3rd party handle it... oh dear god, I hope not... it'll never change drastically.

On the flip side, WRPG, have very little character focus, mostly on the MC, because the MC is suppose to you, which can be extremely boring if you don't have that RPing mindset... that includes me, I can never RP. I see a lot of people mentioning "choice", all WRPGs do is give the illusion of choice, all those dialogue choices and such, means nothing in the long run. Like for instance one of my favorite RPGs of all time, Baldur's Gate II, no matter who you kill, how much of a good/bad guy you are, you still in the end save Imoen and kill Irenicus. And with the Throne of Bhaal expansion that ends the saga, there's only a few factors that effects your ending. A. Who did you hook up with? B. What's your reputation? C. Did you Decide to become a God or stay a Mortal?, everything felt so inconsequential, nothing you did before reaching the end mattered. That's how it felt with pretty much every Bioware game. I couldn't care less about dialogue trees, it's a hassle, but it's probably because I'm not an RPer.

This is like... wrong on so many levels. The purpose of dialogue trees isn't to have a game that changes because of them (although those types of games are nice), they're there so the main character doesn't have to speak for the player, ie what Robin/Kamui does, because when there are no dialogue options and the character is just talking on their own, you can't write anything the player might disagree with (an overall fruitless effort, I don't find these characters relatable anyway). You act as if self-inserts are something that only Western developers can do as well and yet you discredit many of the wonderful silent protagonists like the Pokemon trainers, which I find much more relatable than the FE avatars.

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This is like... wrong on so many levels. The purpose of dialogue trees isn't to have a game that changes because of them (although those types of games are nice), they're there so the main character doesn't have to speak for the player, ie what Robin/Kamui does, because when there are no dialogue options and the character is just talking on their own, you can't write anything the player might disagree with (an overall fruitless effort, I don't find these characters relatable anyway). You act as if self-inserts are something that only Western developers can do as well and yet you discredit many of the wonderful silent protagonists like the Pokemon trainers, which I find much more relatable than the FE avatars.

I never said only wRPGs are the only ones that do it, I only said they're most well known for it, as every wRPGs are self inserts. And silent protagonists was common place for old jRPGs, which was the buttend of many jokes, cause people didn't understand why they had no personality was a complete mute. Like Crono for instance.

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It's how they do it the problem, not the concept itself.

Personally, I think it would be better if was a mute hero, either like SMT or like FE7? but that's just me.

Though Fates took a step in the right direction... purely gameplay wise of course. Story-wise, Avatar were always a big fat 'Ugh'.

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I feel like Robin was the best Avatar because he was literally what we are, tacticians. It's what I imagine Mark would be if he was actually fleshed out as a character.

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I find the idea of self inserts to be a great one because it allows me to become more immersed in the world and build deeper connections with the characters. However I can see where a lot of you are coming from when you say that they shouldn't be the focus of the plot,worshiped and should actually be self inserts rather than predetermined characters that we make choices for. The personality quiz idea I think would be the best way to create a personality for your avatar, that combined with the limiting of supports would give them a defining character. Personally I would like them to be tacticians and act as side characters with a little importance over normal characters because of your strategic ability.

This is why I prefer Robin over Kamui. Robin primarily acted as a supporting character and had a reason as to why he lead the army.

This has lead me to wonder how Fates would of played out if the decision was based around your value as a tactician rather than your familial bonds(assuming you're not related to any of the families).

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I guess you could say that since FE7's Tactician had no personality really.

I mean in the sense that it's a tactician that helps out but isn't the "main" character. Mark was too insignificant and tacked on, so I feel like Robin was a fully realized tactician, either creating or commenting on the teams strategy.

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I like the idea of an Avatar, but I don't feel that they've been handled well overall.

Kris, just screw him. Forced into a plot where he didn't belong, built up to be some a tremendous character that Marth sees him as his other half, and is hyped up in the plot even at its expense. He's honestly the worst example to me since he warps an existing plot around him rather then a plot catered to him being warped like with Kamui and to a lesser extent, Robin.

Kamui is also pretty bad, mostly because the game refuses to let him grow from the consequences he causes. I've seen a lot of fans bring up Lief and I agree that there's a huge contrast with them, Lief made stupid mistakes and paid for them, and thus had to grow as a character. Kamui doesn't really make any mistakes that forces him to grow, so he never feels challenged in the same way. Additionally, a number of characters are completely warped around him to an unhealthy extent such as Camilla, who has barely any characterization outside of her love for Kamui. He could've worked if the narrative balanced out his role in the plot as well as his effect on other characters, but as it is now, he's a Black Hole Sue to me.

Robin is the best of the lot, though I will admit that's not saying much. I still do have a number of problems with Robin since he falls into some of the same traps that Kamui and Kris do such as warping the plot a bit around him (especially towards the end) and the fact that the choices we have don't really have a consequence (Do you choose to kill Grima or let Chrom do it? Doesn't matter, you live anyway, just kill him yourself as you're not dying). However, I will give him credit in that it's not as bad as Kamui or Kris, and at least for some of the plot, he's treated as a secondary character and thus doesn't overtake others for a time. He's still not a good example, but at least he had some good points to him compared to the others.

Edited by Medeus
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I do like avatar characters when they are used well. But only when I can realy go all the way and make choices (that actually matter) during the game, so as to actually define my own personality through them.

This is why I do not like most jrpg avatars, because they are usually made to be a complete blank personality wise so as to accomodate the biggest number of players.

Over the years I've gotten used to this and don't really mind it anymore. I still don't like it, but I tend to just roll with it.

I didn't play FE12, so I can't comment on Kris. Mark was barely even present, so I generally do not count him.

Robin was alright, sometimes a bit too subdued for my tastes, but generally acceptable.

However, Fates takes this to a completely new level with the amount of worship that is thrown at Kamui, who might as well be a cardboard cutout for you to scribble your face on. And nothing else.

Most instances of excessive player worship have already been mentioned here so I'll skip that.

But why is IntSys going so far overboard with it? Because many players desire it, and love all the praise heaped at them, marrying all the waifus/husbandos etc.

And this doesn't just go for the japanese fandom either.

Just look at what happened with the one character who isn't all over Kamui; Takumi was instantly disliked by many simply because he distrusts Kamui at the beginning.

This mostly went away once the actual games were released, at least among those who kept up with it. But the initial reaction to a character not liking the avatar, even for understandable reasons, was to dismiss him immediately.

My point is, that Intsys making the avatar universally loved has a logic behind it. People often do not take kindly to their in-game self being criticised. They could have of put in some more effort and try to make the avatar more realistically flawed and integrated into the world. But that carries the risk of alienating their audience, so they took the lazy route and went for unconditional love from 99.9% of the playable cast. And they got their cash so I seriously doubt this will change with the next game.

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Just look at what happened with the one character who isn't all over Kamui; Takumi was instantly disliked by many simply because he distrusts Kamui at the beginning.

This mostly went away once the actual games were released, at least among those who kept up with it. But the initial reaction to a character not liking the avatar, even for understandable reasons, was to dismiss him immediately.

My point is, that Intsys making the avatar universally loved has a logic behind it. People often do not take kindly to their in-game self being criticised. They could have of put in some more effort and try to make the avatar more realistically flawed and integrated into the world. But that carries the risk of alienating their audience, so they took the lazy route and went for unconditional love from 99.9% of the playable cast. And they got their cash so I seriously doubt this will change with the next game.

I don't disagree with your analysis but I would point one thing out. When a character dislikes you, the player, outside of context, they will be met with criticism. However, as we've seen by the release of the game and Takumi becoming the most popular character (for one poll, but is widely considered one of the best written characters even on these forums), when their context is shown, they might become even more liked than those who worship the player (Camilla).

I understand IS's apprehension at creating a avatar that isn't universally loved, but I think the playerbase could handle it.

Edited by NekoKnight
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I don't disagree with your analysis but I would point one thing out. When a character dislikes you, the player, outside of context, they will be met with criticism. However, as we've seen by the release of the game and Takumi becoming the most popular character (for one poll, but is widely considered one of the best written characters even on these forums), when their context is shown, they might become even more liked than those who worship the player (Camilla).

I understand IS's apprehension at creating a avatar that isn't universally loved, but I think the playerbase could handle it.

I agree, but IntSys probably isn't going to make that conclusion, because the rest of the poll celebrated the game and all its features. From what I can tell, not many people in Japan complained about the player worship (correct me if I am wrong), so I don't see Intsys changing something that in their minds isn't broken. And japanese companies rarely care about the opinions of the western fandoms of their games (unkess you are talking stuff like Pokémon and Mario).

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I agree, but IntSys probably isn't going to make that conclusion, because the rest of the poll celebrated the game and all its features. From what I can tell, not many people in Japan complained about the player worship (correct me if I am wrong), so I don't see Intsys changing something that in their minds isn't broken. And japanese companies rarely care about the opinions of the western fandoms of their games (unkess you are talking stuff like Pokémon and Mario).

The same poll which was kinda biased about everything other than teh plot or mechanics. I would love it for some veterans to give IS some of there opinions. Also, if Fire Emblem was to get big enough on a larger scale, would Nintendo force IS to care about the westerns opinions and etc then?

Seriously, the drama, I can't wait. I would just love to time skip 4 years from now and see interviews and reviews, feedback, controversies about this.

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I don't hate Avatars, I just think they could be better written like people have said. Robin's backstory is interesting enough to me, but his/her character...yeah. I get that the Avatar is supposed to reflect us, but there are so many different people in the world that it's just impossible for the Avatar to truly be a reflection of any player. So you might as well give him/her a real personality.

Edited by Anacybele
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I agree, but IntSys probably isn't going to make that conclusion, because the rest of the poll celebrated the game and all its features. From what I can tell, not many people in Japan complained about the player worship (correct me if I am wrong), so I don't see Intsys changing something that in their minds isn't broken. And japanese companies rarely care about the opinions of the western fandoms of their games (unkess you are talking stuff like Pokémon and Mario).

That's definitely something I wonder. We know that people complained about the story of Awakening from the "Iwata asks" and we know that people complained about the Chikan mechanic in Fates because of Sakurai. I could imagine that a lot of players did find the player worship off-putting, but are still struggling to recognise the core problem, so they are pointing towards the Chikan mechanic or the weak story because they stood out particularly negatively. At least I know that it took me a long time to realize that changes like switching the artist or removing the Avatar or marriage would be far to superficial in order to return Fire Emblem into a series that I could respect.

Edited by BrightBow
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