Think We'll Ever See Fire Emblem Maker?

[Myke]

dog you're going to piss off a lot of people with that talk. you realise there are entire youtube channels devoted to running the games as efficiently as possible, right? that there are entire sub-forums on this very website dedicated to arguing for hours over statistics?

those are not the core tools of engagement in fire emblem, those are your favourites

Edited October 13, 2015 by Myke

[Shrouded In Myth]

Yeah, I would put challenge muxg higher than passtime as a core gameplay aesthetic to Fire Emblem. The mere fact that experience is limited in most games supports this. But you are right about the narrative and I doubt most people will be interested if they can't do an epic story. An FE Maker would be more suited to BS Fire Emblem maps, just one chapter stories.

[Myke]

The mere fact that experience is limited in most games supports this.

yeah this is a very salient point I hadn't even considered

[Jotari]

The core gameplay aesthetics of Fire Emblem are narrative and abnegation (or submission, vicariousness, pastime). Both of these things manifest themselves over the course of long single-player epics.

In order to create an epic narrative, the player would need to type in a lot of characterization, narrative text, flavor text, etc. This would not be easy to do using a console controller or even the Wii U game pad. A keyboard would be better sorted to the task.

For creating abnegation in a game, you must design an XP and difficulty curve, classes, stats, and the like. You are talking about sliders, combo boxes, check boxes, basic web form or windows forms controls. Once again, these controls are much better suited to a mouse on a PC.

If we did get such an editor, you would be able to create maps with no story or balancing, and at that point it's not the same game. So I can't see Nintendo devoting resources to such a project. If such a product existed, it would exist on PC (and would likely be developed by the community, as was mentioned).

You'd be surprised how effective alternate ways of typing can be. Typing itself is quite illogical since you have to individually press each key which can be located pretty far from each other on a keyboard, as opposed to a system where each button (always accessible on a controller) can be one of several different letters depending on a toggle. I've seen a controller type keyboard that was measured against a normal keyboard and after an hour of practise the controller type appeared to be faster (something I was sceptical about at first but I reckon its true now). Of course it's also pretty irrelevant since if Maker Games do become the next big thing, narrative type games like RPGs that require a lot of text to be typed could easily make a keyboard extension be one of the norms for the console.

Edited October 13, 2015 by Jotari

[sithys]

Yeah, I would put challenge muxg higher than passtime as a core gameplay aesthetic to Fire Emblem. The mere fact that experience is limited in most games supports this. But you are right about the narrative and I doubt most people will be interested if they can't do an epic story. An FE Maker would be more suited to BS Fire Emblem maps, just one chapter stories.

The set of people who debate statistics on this website is not a representative sample of the people who buy Fire Emblem.

Yes, challenge is another important one, though not all players actually enjoy the challenge. It's important to remember that the people on this website are living in a fish tank and they actually can't see the water. To my point though, challenge arises from a configuration of the game systems, and that configuration would require the use of the aforementioned controls (combo boxes, etc) which are difficult to use with a controller. Super Mario Maker has one combo box (the theme selector) but a game as complex as fire emblem could have dozens, not to mention the need to input text.

Jotari, there are other keyboard styles (such as Dvorak) which take only a few hours to learn and are much faster to use when typing, and despite these advantages the number of people who use this layout is statistically negligible when designing products (left handedness is much more significant). In order to make a profit you are going to need to appeal to lots of people, not just the handful who are willing to learn how to type using a controller.

[Jotari]

People have to learn how to use keyboards as well. I'm merely saying keyboards aren't a perfect control scheme for typing large quantities of text. They're good enough but it doesn't mean they're the only thing that can achieve the feat. And if you are buying a game you are going to get quicker at using the controls for it the more you play it, that only stands or reason. And even if the standard keyboard was the only way to effectively type, it is by no means a difficult piece of hardware to include as an extension which would be in the producers best interest, more peripherals. I just don't think siting the need for making large swats of text is a good reason to say it's unfeasible. Unique art assets would probably be the biggest thing standing in Fire Emblem's way (aside from not really being popular enough, yet). The low plot of Mario makes it easy to just reuse the same enemies over and over but for Fire Emblem, and most plot heavy game, reusing the same character designs like that just wouldn't fit.

I also feel like pointing out that, yes, the people arguing statistics on this site don'e embody the extent of the fan base. But the people who are super into the series story and writing fan fics about it aren't a representative sample either. Most people are going to buy a game for both the story and the gameplay, I know I definitely do. Highlighting one over the other for this discussion doesn't really seem relevant to me.

[sithys]

People have to learn how to use keyboards as well. I'm merely saying keyboards aren't a perfect control scheme for typing large quantities of text. They're good enough but it doesn't mean they're the only thing that can achieve the feat. And if you are buying a game you are going to get quicker at using the controls for it the more you play it, that only stands or reason. And even if the standard keyboard was the only way to effectively type, it is by no means a difficult piece of hardware to include as an extension which would be in the producers best interest, more peripherals. I just don't think siting the need for making large swats of text is a good reason to say it's unfeasible. Unique art assets would probably be the biggest thing standing in Fire Emblem's way (aside from not really being popular enough, yet). The low plot of Mario makes it easy to just reuse the same enemies over and over but for Fire Emblem, and most plot heavy game, reusing the same character designs like that just wouldn't fit.

I also feel like pointing out that, yes, the people arguing statistics on this site don'e embody the extent of the fan base. But the people who are super into the series story and writing fan fics about it aren't a representative sample either. Most people are going to buy a game for both the story and the gameplay, I know I definitely do. Highlighting one over the other for this discussion doesn't really seem relevant to me.

That is correct. It's a combination of narrative, abnegation, and challenge that attract people. This is the unique signature of Fire Emblem, though even these aspects are also decorative. Fire Emblem isn't far removed from a game of chance played with cards, one in which probabilities can be evaluated and maximized. I chose to highlight one aspect to point out the specific requirements of a software product and how development on a console does not facilitate the requirements.

One could conceivably reuse the avatar editor in Awakening, but with many more options, to design all the non-generic characters in the game. Art assets are actually one of the easier problems to solve, though the product the player gets might not meed their standards of artistic expression. There are many editors that would be required to make the game, including a narrative editor, a unit growth rate/base stat editor, an overworld/world map editor (think campaign cartographer, use Perlin Noise on the edges to make it look like coast) and an editor that lets players string chapters together and insert gaiden chapters/alternate paths.

[Shrouded In Myth]

The set of people who debate statistics on this website is not a representative sample of the people who buy Fire Emblem.

Yes, challenge is another important one, though not all players actually enjoy the challenge. It's important to remember that the people on this website are living in a fish tank and they actually can't see the water. To my point though, challenge arises from a configuration of the game systems, and that configuration would require the use of the aforementioned controls (combo boxes, etc) which are difficult to use with a controller. Super Mario Maker has one combo box (the theme selector) but a game as complex as fire emblem could have dozens, not to mention the need to input text.

Yeah, no. Compare Fire Emblem to another influential SRPG, Tactics Ogre. Tactics Ogre is definitely about narrative and abnegation (I hate this term) looking at its design decisions, like its unlimited encounters to grind up experience, the forging system requiring random drops or even the 50 turn take back. Fire Emblem on the other hand has limited experience, no random encounters and limited mid-cgaoter saves. One contributed to the abnegation of the game design the other to the challenge.

There are FE games that are more similar to the design of Tactics Ogre, like Awakening, and many fans thought it strayed to far from the gameplay of FE even though it has almost the exact same mechanics of the previous games. Why? Because those fans felt the shift of abnegation being more important to the gameplay aesthetics of the game, instead of challenge being one.

It also worth thinking about why players DON'T play Fire Emblem when they play JRPGs which focus on narrative and abnegation. It's because they felt that Fire Emblem focused to much on the challenge gameplay aesthetic for their taste.

[Dark Sage]

This is a minor point, but I'd like to point out that when using Tactics Ogre as a point of comparison for the gameplay, you need to specify whether or not you're talking about the original SFC version or the more well known remake because they're like two completely different games.

I've actually hung around the TO community for awhile and it's generally agreed there that for all the improvements made on the narrative, the gameplay is much, much worse and for the pretty much the same reasons why some people don't like Awakening: too much clutter, too much emphasis on grinding, little in the way of actual challenge, laughable balance, etc.

My point is that when you look at what appeals to people who like FE and SFC Tactics Ogre, you'll find quite a bit on common. People generally like the aesthetic, whether it be the narrative or the visuals, but it's their common gameplay elements that keep people around. The emphasis on positioning and less on pure brute force; the existence of a strong failure state (permadeath) to emphasize tactical thinking rather than pure bumrushing; the ease of which the mechanics are learned and the thinking it can take to make the best use out of them. There is a strong shift towards challenge and that is what helped give those games staying power. Too much focus on abnegation and you've basically got a standard JRPG on a grid, which is why games like Awakening - and to an extent Sacred Stones - are so unappealing to fans.

[Shrouded In Myth]

I was mostly referring to Let us Cling Together. I need to look at the SFC version to see hoe uch different it is, but it's interesting that the remake had the same reaction as Awakening. Still considering the game it inspired (Final Fantasy Tactics, Disgaea) it really does seem the intent was to just do a JRPG in a grid, rather than FE's intent of a Strategy game with a narrative.

[Dark Sage]

It does become more like its contemporaries towards the end since you're given certain tools to break the difficulty curve and your growth units start to pay off. But it is a lot closer to FE than its successors. It came out when FE was at the height of its popularity and was in development when Mystery came out, so I think it was kind of designed as a marriage between the two styles.

The reason why I think FE's style of doing things is less popular these days is because people are not good at strategy and seem to mainly care about the sheer quantity of content. That's the primary reason people like the LUCT school of SRPGs and the main counter to their lack of strategy, though it does not seem to bother people whether or not the bulk of said content is worthwhile. I think these kinds of games do better with the game reviewers and the general public because they're long, have lots of bells and whistles, and don't require a lot of effort to overpower, so they feel smart. I remember how Radiant Dawn scored poorly and the most common reasons were the difficulty and the lack of glitz that Disgaea and friends have. Sad as it is to say, people generally prefer the other way of doing thingd, not FE's, which could be why Awakening was such a darling among the reviewer circuit.

This is probably way off topic but it's fun to talk about so eh.

[Shrouded In Myth]

Pretty much agree with you, people want sandboxes to do what they please, not scenarios where they have to push the mechanics to its limits for high level play.

MJEmirzian wrote a very ranty piece about this. I know he's not the most popular guy due to his attitude, but underneath all that brashness he got some good points.

http://www.tbstactics.com/2012/03/are-you-sure-youre-really-fan-of-turn.html

Edited October 15, 2015 by Shrouded In Myth

[Glitchy]

I think Fire Emblem is more focused on gameplay. Usually the stories aren't amazing, but good enough to give a reason for the gameplay.

[Mrs Chrom]

Almost definitely not. You need the game to be simple and focused in such a way that a level editor can achieve the same quality as the tailored games do. They won't do Zelda for that reason too. It'd be a hell of a lot more work and you'd end up with something significantly worse than any Zelda game.

One example of this is just the world design. Both Zelda and Fire Emblem depend hugely on successful world design. That's really not something you can reduce to a point-and-click level maker. Mario just about works because it's simple enough that permutations of the same basic blocks almost appear as being different levels. Whereas in Zelda or Fire Emblem, what would happen is that you'd play a few user created levels and then you'd start to see similarities in nearly all of them. That unique and new feeling of when you go into a new temple in Zelda or a new level in Fire Emblem is much more key to these experiences than it is to Mario.

Edited October 16, 2015 by Mrs Chrom

[Myke]

You'd be surprised how effective alternate ways of typing can be. Typing itself is quite illogical since you have to individually press each key which can be located pretty far from each other on a keyboard, as opposed to a system where each button (always accessible on a controller) can be one of several different letters depending on a toggle. I've seen a controller type keyboard that was measured against a normal keyboard and after an hour of practise the controller type appeared to be faster (something I was sceptical about at first but I reckon its true now). Of course it's also pretty irrelevant since if Maker Games do become the next big thing, narrative type games like RPGs that require a lot of text to be typed could easily make a keyboard extension be one of the norms for the console.

B- there's these new mouse-keyboards that are all the rage

(I'm a little behind and distracted, will edit in as I proceed)

[Roflolxp54]

I can easily see (main series) Pokemon maker come out first and be successful, especially considering that it does have a ROM-hacking community.

I'd definitely buy and give Fire Emblem maker a go, though!

[Misses Elise-chan!]

That's what Advanced Wars is for

[Thermoreeth]

I don't really see it happening, since Fire Emblem has a bit more gameplay "depth" than Mario. The only way I can really see it happening is as a basic map maker where you design the layout of the map, place enemy soldiers on there, and decide certain unit types that can be used for the stage and the placement of the units. Though even that would be complicated, because you would have to decide what items and weapons the characters have, what their stats are, etc.

[General Banzai]

it's called MSpaint

[Admiral "Bull" Halsey]

If thats the case then we may as well have a Super Smash Bros Maker