Why did the series need to be saved?

[Anacybele]

Yeah, past FE games didn't sell well mainly because of poor advertising. And I disagree with those saying that PoR and RD being for GC and Wii had anything to do with it. The Wii is the best selling console on the fricken planet. A fuckton of people could've bought both because of that since the Wii plays GC games as well as its own games. The GC didn't do nearly as well though, admittedly.

With how well-known Ike is today, I bet you anything that his games would sell a lot better if they were released again now.

[Glitchy]

HUGE lack of advertising for the series. Awakening was successful because they stepped up their advertising.

[The DanMan]

As many other people have said, the series had been declining for a while; the borderline commercial failures of the Radiant games put the series in a tight spot, which is probably why they went with the Akanea remakes: to cash in on homeland nostalgia and get something new-ish out for the Westerners. There numbers floating around here not too long ago that said that Shadow Dragon has sold 600,000 copies, and even that didn't include most of Europe. New Mystery had the misfortune of releasing withing months of the 3DS launch; it, nevertheless, just hit the 250,000 mark.

I always get tired when people try shut me up when they say "but Awakening saved the series" when, in actuality, it didn't; the series was in a bit of a tight situation, but it didn't need "saving". What resulted in Awakening's success was Nintendo bothering to advertise the game in the West, along with positive word of mouth and Casual mode removing a psychological barrier.

Would the game have been successful without fanservice and changing the series' objective to being "an anime that you can live in"? Probably.

Did anyone else's sirens just go blaring? Pretty sure mine did. Letting nostalgia blind you is the worst thing you could ever do. It's like those who trash Wind Waker because it doesn't match their nostalgic view of Zelda or something like that.

Spoilers: FE7 isn't the cornerstone of the series. It's actually really my least favorite even though I played it first.

When did nostalgia become such a naughty word among the gaming community? Ruadath simply said that their original view of the series had been tinted with nostalgia, and they posted this topic to get some info and clear things up; they're not being presumptuous or argumentative here.

Edited October 16, 2015 by The DanMan

[Bullwine85]

I think FE's decline actually started with FE8. Though a lack of advertising for the series didn't help...

Lack of advertising is almost what killed the series. Look at how much marketing Awakening and even FE7 had.

Compare to Radiant Dawn, which (in North America at least) released with little to no advertising......exactly one day before Super Mario Galaxy came out.

[Shadow Mir]

Lack of advertising is almost what killed the series. Look at how much marketing Awakening and even FE7 had.

Compare to Radiant Dawn, which (in North America at least) released with little to no advertising......exactly one day before Super Mario Galaxy came out.

Bold: Now THAT'S what I call bad timing... There's no way in hell it could've stood to sell well when it came around the same time as a title from one of Nintendo's biggest franchises. (Just how much did RD sell in America, again?)

Edited October 16, 2015 by Levant Colthearts

[vonretic]

Yeah, past FE games didn't sell well mainly because of poor advertising. And I disagree with those saying that PoR and RD being for GC and Wii had anything to do with it. The Wii is the best selling console on the fricken planet. A fuckton of people could've bought both because of that since the Wii plays GC games as well as its own games. The GC didn't do nearly as well though, admittedly.

With how well-known Ike is today, I bet you anything that his games would sell a lot better if they were released again now.

Correction. PlayStation 2 is the best selling console. I just had to say it, otherwise I would have died inside :)))

[Anacybele]

No, the Wii blew every other console out of the water. That thing sold millions and millions of units, I believe.

[The Envoy of the Beginning]

No, the Wii blew every other console out of the water. That thing sold millions and millions of units, I believe.

Look up the sales numbers of the Wii and the PS2. You'll be surprised. Or not.

[Sunwoo]

Clearly the only way to know for sure how big of a difference advertisement made in Awakening's success is to 1) make an FE game that is mechanically very similar to the old games but with as much advertising and attention as Awakening and Fates got, then 2) make a follow-up FE game that plays very similarly to Awakening and Fates with marriage and children and whatnot, but give it very little to no advertising, about the same as the non-Awakening and Fates FEs got. And see what happens.

Of course, they're never going to do that.

[solrocknroll]

As many other people have said, the series had been declining for a while; the borderline commercial failures of the Radiant games put the series in a tight spot, which is probably why they went with the Akanea remakes: to cash in on homeland nostalgia and get something new-ish out for the Westerners. There numbers floating around here not too long ago that said that Shadow Dragon has sold 600,000 copies, and even that didn't include most of Europe. New Mystery had the misfortune of releasing withing months of the 3DS launch; it, nevertheless, just hit the 250,000 mark.

I always get tired when people try shut me up when they say "but Awakening saved the series" when, in actuality, it didn't; the series was in a bit of a tight situation, but it didn't need "saving". What resulted in Awakening's success was Nintendo bothering to advertise the game in the West, along with positive word of mouth and Casual mode removing a psychological barrier.

Would the game have been successful without fanservice and changing the series' objective to being "an anime that you can live in"? Probably.

When did nostalgia become such a naughty word among the gaming community? Ruadath simply said that their original view of the series had been tinted with nostalgia, and they posted this topic to get some info and clear things up; they're not being presumptuous or argumentative here.

Do you have any concept of how not to make a baity, old man-like post?

Nostalgia is the worst. It blinds people to hideous faults and makes them look down on modern games. Guess what SNESers out there: Xenoblade Chronicles > FFVI, Wind Waker > aLttP, and Galaxy > wait World is still amazing.

Never the less, stuff like abhorrent OoT nostalgia has lead to Twilght Princess's lack identity.

And about the first part? Awakening saved the series whether you feel like whining about it or not. SD and 12 may have met the mark, but they still wouldn't inspire confidence. Your favorite is Shadow Dragon so I think something's messed up here

also it's atrociously condescending to imply that casual mode is a bad thing. Elitists like that kill the series. And "an anime you can live in" is a terrible descriptor. It means pretty much nothing.

You are probably actually the worst type of Fire Emblem fan. One who accepts no change and is so stuck in their ways that they'd rather others suffer so we can go back to boring FE7 land.

[Baldrick]

Reading his post was optional, so why were you complaining about it?

[The DanMan]

Do you have any concept of how not to make a baity, old man-like post?

Nostalgia is the worst. It blinds people to hideous faults and makes them look down on modern games. Guess what SNESers out there: Xenoblade Chronicles > FFVI, Wind Waker > aLttP, and Galaxy > wait World is still amazing.

Never the less, stuff like abhorrent OoT nostalgia has lead to Twilght Princess's lack identity.

And about the first part? Awakening saved the series whether you feel like whining about it or not. SD and 12 may have met the mark, but they still wouldn't inspire confidence. Your favorite is Shadow Dragon so I think something's messed up here

also it's atrociously condescending to imply that casual mode is a bad thing. Elitists like that kill the series. And "an anime you can live in" is a terrible descriptor. It means pretty much nothing.

You are probably actually the worst type of Fire Emblem fan. One who accepts no change and is so stuck in their ways that they'd rather others suffer so we can go back to boring FE7 land.

Nostalgia: a sentimental longing or wistful affection for the past, typically for a period or place with happy personal associations.

Nothing intrinsically negative; it's when people are blinded by their nostalgic memories that things get messy. How is possessing a sentimental connection with something in the past wrong?

I never implied casual mode was bad; from my observations, people were scared off by permadeath, but played with casual. It's primarily a psychological barrier; once they pick things up and learn how the game works, they generally do pretty well, casual or no. It's just that they wouldn't get into the series before because of the risk of permadeath, regardless of how much of a risk that is once you learn the game.

And don't blame me for "an anime that you can live in" being vague; blame IS. Most people on here probably know what tends to characterize anime know; one of those traits is a lot of fanservice and general viewer pandering, for better or for worse.

Also, do you really want to argue with numerical data? All I said is that I get a bit peeved when people use the "it saved the series" excuse as a catch-all defense for Awakening when in fact it didn't.

You want to know who's being very presumptions and "atrociously condescending"? You. You replied to a "baity" post before putting words in my mouth and verbally assaulting me for them. For the rare actual elitist here, you are providing the model example of their general idea of a new player; extremely condescending and dismissive of any who might prefer the Fire Emblem games before Awakening.

If you're profile is true, I'm a year older than you at 16. I've played Shadow Dragon, Sacred Stones, and Awakening. That's it. I'd like to play more of the games, but don't own a Wii U and am waiting on an ebay deal for FE7.

Do you even want to know how many people on Reddit and Gamefaqs would call you "messed up" for liking Awakening?

I can choose to discuss and dislike the greatly increased amount of player pandering and fanservice in the series. Guess what? I'm still buying Conquest, because the gameplay is (reportedly) freaking awesome. That's what the series is at the end of the day; a video game. Jumping down somebody's throat because they disagree with your opinion on a piece of virtual entertainment seems pretty childish. What is it with being anonymous on the internet and letting yourself loose? We've all done and said some stupid things on the internet (more than we'd ever admit to friends and family). You're embarrassing yourself right now with this post. In no way, shape, or form did I mean or intend to insult anybody. Now, could you please take a chill pill and let's just drop it?

Edited October 17, 2015 by The DanMan

[Lord Raven]

Spoilers: FE7 isn't the cornerstone of the series. It's actually really my least favorite even though I played it first.

I think you'll find most people in the fandom these days (well on SF) agreeing with this.

Do you have any concept of how not to make a baity, old man-like post?

I don't think you have a concept of the former. The latter is essentially the opposite extreme of what you're doing.

Nostalgia is the worst. It blinds people to hideous faults and makes them look down on modern games. Guess what SNESers out there: Xenoblade Chronicles > FFVI, Wind Waker > aLttP, and Galaxy > wait World is still amazing.

Wow i didn't know opinions were a thing here, because objectively XBC had to be better than FF6! I'm just so blinded by this n-word that I can't see it!.

That's not the way it works boss. I definitely loved FF6 more than I like XBC. Doesn't mean I'm into this nostalgia thing, because I like FF13 more than games like FF9/FF3 and a bunch of other old-time RPGs. But I guess I'm not allowed to have an opinion here huh, because XBC is objectively so much better than FF6 simply because FF6 fanboys are blinded by nostalgia.

Excuse me if I'm misinterpreting your point here, but opinions like this aren't dictated by nostalgia.

Never the less, stuff like abhorrent OoT nostalgia has lead to Twilght Princess's lack identity.

I don't know what you're trying to say here, this really doesn't sound like a coherent thought. I love both games but I liked TP better than OoT.

And about the first part? Awakening saved the series whether you feel like whining about it or not. SD and 12 may have met the mark, but they still wouldn't inspire confidence. Your favorite is Shadow Dragon so I think something's messed up here

But here's the thing; Awakening has many faults from a story, design, and gameplay standpoint. Just because people find the older games better (I'm not an FE7 fan myself) doesn't mean that they're blinded by nostalgia so much as those games didn't have the faults that Awakening had.

Awakening's faults weren't really because it wasn't like other FEs, it just generally had structural faults. A few of my friends who played Awakening before all other FE games noted that other FE games (FE8 and FE9 mainly) did a significantly better job of immersing you into the game and characters, and the maps were much more dynamic than FE13's could be at times. The multiple objectives also made them better.

This is of course not everyone's opinion, but Awakening definitely had more flaws than many FE games at the cost of catering to a larger audience. Maybe you don't care about those flaws as much as others do, but I digress. FE12 is criticized for the same shit that FE13 is criticized for anyway, and to a lesser extent FE10 is as well.

also it's atrociously condescending to imply that casual mode is a bad thing. Elitists like that kill the series. And "an anime you can live in" is a terrible descriptor. It means pretty much nothing.

I think it's a bad descriptor but the point had everything to do with the fact that it had a lot of dating sim elements and a self-insert character that is loved or can be loved by everyone.

Fan-servicey elements as well, including this shounen-inspired artwork as opposed to the earlier style which was simple while being honest to its atmosphere all the same Sure, they weren't perfect, because Pegasus Knights with skirts, but at the very least they did seem like they fit into atmosphere of the game and they gave you an illusion of functionality.

The same cannot be said about FE13, where we have ridiculous outfits like female Cavaliers, Armor Knights, and Wyvern Riders, tits popping out for random outfits, bare chested fighters who are not bandits but trained Axe Fighters in some sort of small royal militia, and the entire Dark Mage class both male and female. Fuck, Lissa's outfit is really over-the-top too. I know we may not share a taste here but FE13 tends to lean more towards the shounen anime demographic compared to previous FEs whose style catered to people who were at best casual anime viewers (like myself).

Casual mode isn't a bad thing so much as symptomatic of a greater problem, which is my issue with it. I'd have loved to see a casual mode in earlier FE games, but it seems like they kinda threw it in there so they can throw crap against a wall and see what sells.

I have no doubt that better advertising would have increased sales of FE. I remember following FE9 during its development process and they did a shit job actually advertising FE8 because FE8 literally came out of nowhere from my point of view. I think the time between announcement and release was not that large and I know for a fact that most people were caught off guard and went "huh this got released?" This was back in 2005, mind you.

EDIT: I would actually like to clarify. There is no typo in here. FE9 was actually being developed for a number of years and FE8 was developed and released in the middle of FE9's development. In fact, I remember not knowing shit about FE8's existence until a good month or two after it came out in Japan and the only people who knew when it would be released stateside were following FE closely already. There was no commercials and barely any press releases about the game; it was just silently released and it was so silent that nobody had any concept of it coming out until it actually did.

FE9 had like one commercial that I remember watching a few times but not much else, especially considering that nobody else I have talked to even remembers this commercial. And the commercial played after its release and not before.

It really also didn't help that there were two NA FEs released in 2005 which cannibalized the other's sales.

So in short, Nintendo did a shitty job advertising it. FE10 got some awful reviews by IGN as well, and it got critiques such as "why can't we use our Miis?" too. There were some japanese commercials which were really poorly done (link to one) and there were barely any US commercials. On top of that, Path of Radiance already didn't sell well so its sequel was about to sell less. The only people I even knew who had heard of this game were FE fans. Like they literally had no idea another FE game was gonna come out; these same people became aware of Awakening's release.

It was also much more difficult to advertise in 2005 because I'm willing to guess like 40% of people were still stuck in the dialup age (like me cause my parents were cheap as fuck). We all relied on TV commercials and magazines we'd often read at the grocery store while we waited for our parents to finish their grocery shopping. You couldn't read about random shit on reddit or anything as easily, and IGN was one of the bigger sources of news and even they were pretty bad. There was not much advertising done and very little hype created.

I think comparing our hype towards FE10 back in 2006-2007 to FE13's was night and day. FE10's was far more subdued compared to FE13's and now FE14's.

You are probably actually the worst type of Fire Emblem fan. One who accepts no change and is so stuck in their ways that they'd rather others suffer so we can go back to boring FE7 land.

Nobody cares about change. FE3/4/5/GBA/GCN/Wii/DS are all so different that we're all clearly used to change and don't really mind it. The issue was with how the change happened.

Stop jumping on people's throats. The idea is that the user had a bad perception of the game and is hesitant to buy it as a result which is a fair enough reason. None of this is due to nostalgia as you're defining it; you're defining nostalgia as people who shit on newer games because of their love of older games but this is not the context in which they meant it.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Lord Raven

[Sunwoo]

Guys. Guysguysguysguysguys. I think we're all forgetting something very important, that no one cared to respond to me about yet.

Did Awakening "save the series" because of all the fanservice elements that were added to it? Or did it "save the series" because it was heavily advertised and everywhere? Unless IS wants to take my advice (which I posted earlier) we'll never know for sure. So we can't even say for sure what was the biggest factor or factors for Awakening selling well.

I've never seen any commercials for FE 7-11, not to my memory. I technically didn't see any commercials for FE13 either, but that was because I was out of state for grad school and not really watching TV. But technology and media has really changed in the last few years. I don't think things like youtube were as popular back in the Tellius days. I don't remember twitter and tumblr being as big back then either. But it's one of the fastest ways to find out about anything new nowadays. FE13 was released at a time when it was easy to spread the word through the Internet. Hell, look at how much has changed in technology between Awakening and Fates! Hackers found out everything about Fates before all of the DLC, including the IK, was ever released. Technology has a BIG impact, and I think we're forgetting that. Back when the GBA FEs were being released, and the Tellius games at that, the only real exposure to FE was Smash Bros.

So no duh Awakening and Fates sold well, they were released at an advantageous time for the word about them to get out.

[Baldrick]

My guess is that both factors were necessary. FE was probably the most well-known SRPG series even pre-Awakening, with multiple Smash representatives. Actual advertising could only do so much. That said, the elements Awakening introduced aren't exactly unheard of, so it can't be the sole reason for its success.

I definitely agree that word of mouth is a lot more potent these days. I used Serenes Forest as an information resource for a couple of years before I realised there was a forum attached.

[vonretic]

Guys. Guysguysguysguysguys. I think we're all forgetting something very important, that no one cared to respond to me about yet.

Did Awakening "save the series" because of all the fanservice elements that were added to it? Or did it "save the series" because it was heavily advertised and everywhere? Unless IS wants to take my advice (which I posted earlier) we'll never know for sure. So we can't even say for sure what was the biggest factor or factors for Awakening selling well.

I've never seen any commercials for FE 7-11, not to my memory. I technically didn't see any commercials for FE13 either, but that was because I was out of state for grad school and not really watching TV. But technology and media has really changed in the last few years. I don't think things like youtube were as popular back in the Tellius days. I don't remember twitter and tumblr being as big back then either. But it's one of the fastest ways to find out about anything new nowadays. FE13 was released at a time when it was easy to spread the word through the Internet. Hell, look at how much has changed in technology between Awakening and Fates! Hackers found out everything about Fates before all of the DLC, including the IK, was ever released. Technology has a BIG impact, and I think we're forgetting that. Back when the GBA FEs were being released, and the Tellius games at that, the only real exposure to FE was Smash Bros.

So no duh Awakening and Fates sold well, they were released at an advantageous time for the word about them to get out.

If you would have cared to read through all the posts here, even mine, you would have discovered that:

1.Awakening was supposedly to be the last FE game in the entire franchise, so the devs gave it all they've got to make it appeal to all and everyone.

2.Advertising and promotional campaigns was the main reason many people knew about Awakening, then word of mouth second, as people would talk about the game with many praises and saying that it was one of the best 3DS game out there and fans of FE games talked about the fact that Awakening was the best FE game they've played in the series.

There are a few examples of how things go well with p.campagins and advertising. Look at Ico for example, it didn't did well from a commercial stand point of view when it was released because they didn't advertised the game that much, even though the game did well with critics and players.

Then comes Shadow of the Colossus, that was heavily advertised, and I don't even need to explain more, as the game did well BOTH critically and commercially.

Now look at games that are coming out now. Fallout 4 is again heavily advertised and has an active promotional campaign, this resulting in a very big hype train. Think about it, from your stand point of view, how do you think Fallout 4 will do commercially? Because I think it will skyrocket on sales.

The same can be said about Deus Ex: Mankind Divided. If you watch EIDOS Montreal youtube channel for the game (called Deus Ex) you will see that they have many videos advertising the game in many different ways, they even have an ongoing propaganda with many posters scattered around the world for the game, that are interesting posters and wanting ones, making people buy the game at launch, and they have many different trailers for the game, in different languages. And the devs are present at every gaming convetion, promoting the game even further. This is a heavy promotional campaign and advertisement going on for them, considering the fact that the game will come out only next year.

And the fact that I talk about these games here, means that their adv and p.campaign works.

[The DanMan]

Guys. Guysguysguysguysguys. I think we're all forgetting something very important, that no one cared to respond to me about yet.

Did Awakening "save the series" because of all the fanservice elements that were added to it? Or did it "save the series" because it was heavily advertised and everywhere? Unless IS wants to take my advice (which I posted earlier) we'll never know for sure. So we can't even say for sure what was the biggest factor or factors for Awakening selling well.

I've never seen any commercials for FE 7-11, not to my memory. I technically didn't see any commercials for FE13 either, but that was because I was out of state for grad school and not really watching TV. But technology and media has really changed in the last few years. I don't think things like youtube were as popular back in the Tellius days. I don't remember twitter and tumblr being as big back then either. But it's one of the fastest ways to find out about anything new nowadays. FE13 was released at a time when it was easy to spread the word through the Internet. Hell, look at how much has changed in technology between Awakening and Fates! Hackers found out everything about Fates before all of the DLC, including the IK, was ever released. Technology has a BIG impact, and I think we're forgetting that. Back when the GBA FEs were being released, and the Tellius games at that, the only real exposure to FE was Smash Bros.

So no duh Awakening and Fates sold well, they were released at an advantageous time for the word about them to get out.

I didn't really see commercials for Awakening; there were a crapton of web advertisements, though.

That's pretty much the point I'm trying to make: Awakening itself didn't save the series per se, it was Nintendo advertising it in the west alongside positive word of mouth that helped things along.

[Glitchy]

Guys. Guysguysguysguysguys. I think we're all forgetting something very important, that no one cared to respond to me about yet.

Did Awakening "save the series" because of all the fanservice elements that were added to it? Or did it "save the series" because it was heavily advertised and everywhere? Unless IS wants to take my advice (which I posted earlier) we'll never know for sure. So we can't even say for sure what was the biggest factor or factors for Awakening selling well.

I've never seen any commercials for FE 7-11, not to my memory. I technically didn't see any commercials for FE13 either, but that was because I was out of state for grad school and not really watching TV. But technology and media has really changed in the last few years. I don't think things like youtube were as popular back in the Tellius days. I don't remember twitter and tumblr being as big back then either. But it's one of the fastest ways to find out about anything new nowadays. FE13 was released at a time when it was easy to spread the word through the Internet. Hell, look at how much has changed in technology between Awakening and Fates! Hackers found out everything about Fates before all of the DLC, including the IK, was ever released. Technology has a BIG impact, and I think we're forgetting that. Back when the GBA FEs were being released, and the Tellius games at that, the only real exposure to FE was Smash Bros.

So no duh Awakening and Fates sold well, they were released at an advantageous time for the word about them to get out.

There actually is a FE7 commercial I know of, but it was really bad. It didn't resemble Fire Emblem at all and it had a bunch of men at a table, one falls out of his chair, and a man says "What happened to Dorcas?" and another answers "I poisoned his mutton!" Then it says "Fire Emblem, trust no one" which ironically completely goes against the theme of FE.

[Jave]

I'd argue that FE10 was doomed to fail no matter how much advertising it would have had. It was on the Wii, and the audience for that kind of game just wasn't there.

[Anacybele]

A LOT of people had the Wii though, you don't know that for sure.

[Refa]

Wii games sold like shit relative to its install base, probably because 90% of the people bought the system solely for Wii Sports.

[Jave]

A LOT of people had the Wii though, you don't know that for sure.

It's a matter of looking at what sold on the Wii. The highest selling games are all Mario, the Wii series (Sports, Play, Fit) and Brawl. Then there's the two Zeldas, Donkey Kong, Just Dance... and nothing that fits the FE audience until you get to the low numbers.

I think Metroid Prime 3 is a perfect example of this. That game was advertised, it was on a console that a lot of people owned, but it managed to sell less than Metroid Prime on the GCN.

[Anacybele]

Well yeah, Wii Sports was BUNDLED with it. Of course it sold well and of course so would its sister games. That doesn't mean none of the people that got them wouldn't gain an interest in FE.

Edited October 17, 2015 by Anacybele

[TheInternetExplorer]

I always thought it was

Big N Executives: We haven't been doing so hot recently

Execs: The Wii U probably won't be a hit like the Wii

Execs: We need some more franchises to fall back on

They go over to IS

Execs: If you can't boost FE into something big and mainstream with the next game

Execs: You're all fired

Cue panicking IS looking into typical shonen anime stuff to boost their sales

[Sunwoo]

If you would have cared to read through all the posts here, even mine, you would have discovered that:

No need to sound all condescending and stuff, I can read just fine. What was the point of your post other than repeating things I either know about or can figure out logically in a really "high-and-mighty" manner?

Clearly the heavier advertising for Awakening and Fates make a difference. But I still see people arguing as if "fanservice-y newer game elements vs older game elements" were the only factors without even looking into things like advertising or different times.