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(Spoilers) Ways IS could have justified the appearance of children?


Zerxen
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If the hyperbolic time chamber is an a**pull, what about naga who can just send anybody at any time in any place ?

I see children in FE Fates like a bonus or free dlc. Honestly, nobody can say " What ?? New units you can personalize ?? Fuck you IS !! "

I prefer non-canon children than canon children who, by their existance, influenze the story in a BAD way ( rip FE 13 story )

Due to the new public FE 13 brought, they can do the same thing as FE 4.

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Amnesiac children from the future sent by an unknown force (actually Hydra, this could be explained by DLC or hints like blue energy around their recruitment maps) to help the MC's cause. There you go.

He made them forget the future because it was actually apocaliptic and terrifying, or something among those lines.

It's half assed and still lame, but much better than what we have now. Like, honestly, it's bullcrap, these children should have double the insecurities and daddy/mommy issues they have now.

Shit, if Tree House finds a better explanation, I'll do a little dance of joy. There's no way minors giving birth will be overlooked by them... (Midoriko can give birth to Kanna, Lutz can conceive a Kanna, that's messed up, like chav tweens giving birth in Britain messed up, not to mention it's seen as super fucking romantic and idyllic... and please don't give me that B-BUT MEDIEVUHL TIMES crap).

Edited by CrimeanRoyalKnight
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I think they could have used alternate dimensions. Basically, add some plot device building to the My Castle tied to alternate universes. Achieving the S ranking bond would trigger it, opening a pathway to another world.

In those alternate worlds, you'd get a scenario where the child that you're going to recruit had lost their parents and currently had to fight against unwinnable odds when the party arrives, which would explain why they'd be fine leaving it afterwards and joining Kamui's army. You'd get instantly grown up children, without having to involve them in the plot, and without needing instant pregnancy or accelerated aging.

Maybe add a final extra Gaiden at the end after all possible children chapters are finished (or just unplayable, by the parent dying without S ranking) where Kamui then faces the threat against their worlds, but they stay with Kamui's group anyway afterwards in order to help save their parents' world too. That'd add a story of their own without actually involving them in the main plot.

Edited by NeonZ
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I'd say they can still do what FE4 did... without killing the parents. Is having to draw old people going to hurt so much? This is Fire Emblem. They'll look good even after they get old. Look at Finn and Evayle.

In Awakening and Genealogy of the Holy War, children appeared due to plot reasons, unlike Fates. What do you think IS should've done rather than go with the hyperbolic time chamber ass pull?

I like this better than time travel. This doesn't make the mission feel less serious to the extent of Awakening. Grima takes over the world? Meeeh, there's probably some third or fourth timeline out there that survives.

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I'd prefer they just do away with the children concept entirely and put marriages and stuff back in the epilogue, but if that's not an option, might as well keep resorting to time travel. Like, Awakening already wove the entire series into a single continuity, meaning time travel already exists in Fates' universe. There's absolutely no reason for them to be barfing up ridiculous new sci-fi explanations, since they can already do pretty much whatever they need to with the time-space shenanigans Awakening introduced. It's just... why

Or they could just keep S supports but not have kids. Instead have the gameplay benefits come from

Marriage seals letting them change to both of their spouse's class trees and maybe even get a some stat bonuses reflecting their spouse' mods.

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I'd say they can still do what FE4 did... without killing the parents. Is having to draw old people going to hurt so much? This is Fire Emblem. They'll look good even after they get old. Look at Finn and Evayle.

Japan has high standards for marriage candidates. A cast of young, attractive people is more profitable than a cast of people in their late 30s/40s/50s. Also some people don't want to see their sexy characters possibly grow older and uglier, and I can confirm, this because I have a friend so shallow that even if a character decides to change haircut and grow a beard to take a turn in his life, he is not attractive and likable anymore. Not to mention I can already hear the lolicon rage if Elise suddenly was 20 after a time skip.

And when some characters are outside of the marriable age, they will drivel it so much into your head, they'll say "ara ara" so much, that it'll be obvious that they are there to satisfy a fetish: Yuugiri and Cherche talk so much how they are outside of marriable age... it's almost ridiculous.

Or let's take a look how other series see this:

-That guy in his 30s from Tales of Vesperia, everybody calls him old man.

-Malik Caesar from Tales of Graces acts like he's fucking 50 sometimes, but he's barely in his 30s.

-Jade Curtiss in Abyss, they also call him old man, although he takes advantage of it.

-Soul Calibur V made half of its cast stay young and sexy through magic, and replaced the rest with young apprentices or children of the older characters. NOT a single woman had the chance to grow older, except the loli, who turned into an attractive teen instead. Oh, and yeah, some men did not have the chance to grow older too, this is not only for women...

Basically, in this type of games, games that sell themselves through characters, making characters older and develop through their growth, that is not profitable, because they need to be young and attractive to sell. If even a fucking haircut change suddenly makes a character not worthy of your appreciation, then I don't want to think how people would react to aging.

People are shallow, people don't pretend such things from entertainment. As long as someone is sexy and attractive, that character will always be liked, no matter if they are bland and boring. If you take away their youth, their beauty, then you take away the few things that make people like them.

I mean, look at how popular some Fates characters were before release. Nobody knew shit about Camilla or Marx, yet they (me included) swore their love to them because they were fucking sexy. If Camilla got older, just the thought that she is older would make people turn away (especially Asians, being over 25 in Asia makes you unfit for marriage), even if she would still be beautiful.

I wouldn't have a problem if Marx got older, but I know many girls wouldn't like him as much.

I guess it's human, since younger partners are more fit for reproduction, or some shit like that, but these are fictional characters, they don't get pregnant or get you pregnant.

Sorry for being so off topic, but this is one of the reasons why time skips are unexistant in Awakening and Fates, and why older or ugly/weird/unattractive units are so few in both games.

The other is that making the Avatar age would be a problem in game making, since too many variations would have to be made.

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Um...

Serge is 19. She met Minerva when she was 9, which was 10 years ago (taken from two separate pieces of support conversations). No one calls her old in-universe, although her family woman archetype gives off that feeling.

I don't know what's the case in Japan (TV Tropes calls it a discredited trope-to-be), but where I live (in Asia) certainly doesn't have people marrying early. Marrying at 30~35 is the norm here.

But that's besides the point. If people really want young characters, that's what the second gen is there for in the first place. Of course, there would be this problem that players get to know the first gen first. On the other hand, the second gen of both Genealogy and Awakening overshadow the first gen anyway, so I don't think it's that risky to do.

Besides, if preserving the characters'... "status" is that important, they probably shouldn't get married in the first place.

Edited by nocturnal YL
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I can think of three ways in which it could be okay. Saying that, I would much prefer children to not become a series staple (same with avatar characters really) as I want to keep the diversity we have between games.

1. A time skip a la FE4. (FE4 SPOILERS) Kill off the first gen and have the second one be playable. I see the issues with this in Fates and thus don't think it's really viable for the game, but is still a good way to go 2nd gen.

2. A time skip where both gens right alongside each other. This I think would work, but people seem against characters older than 30 or so, and thus don't think that would happen either.

3. The best way it could be done for Fates, to have children unlockable postgame. They could have their own child only maps appear, where you can fight as them sometime in the future/in some alternate dimension where the adults aren't present. Basically could work like the future past DLC for Awakening, which was quite good actually.

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Or they could just keep S supports but not have kids. Instead have the gameplay benefits come from

Marriage seals letting them change to both of their spouse's class trees and maybe even get a some stat bonuses reflecting their spouse' mods.

That'd be just removing a fan favorite feature without replacing it with anything else though. That was the one point that made me expect marriage and children to return in spite of their late confirmation for Fates. There was really announced nothing that could be a replacement for them.

If they weren't there, they'd need to introduce some other post S ranking support mechanic, like maybe a 2nd line of post-S exclusive supports with some other gameplay function associated with them, but there was nothing. The FE series already arbitrarily dropped fan favorite features before, but I didn't see them just cutting something like that without anything else to show for it while attempting to follow up Awakening's success.

Edited by NeonZ
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Um...

Serge is 19. She met Minerva when she was 9, which was 10 years ago (taken from two separate pieces of support conversations). No one calls her old in-universe, although her family woman archetype gives off that feeling.

I don't know what's the case in Japan (TV Tropes calls it a discredited trope-to-be), but where I live (in Asia) certainly doesn't have people marrying early. Marrying at 30~35 is the norm here.

But that's besides the point. If people really want young characters, that's what the second gen is there for in the first place. Of course, there would be this problem that players get to know the first gen first. On the other hand, the second gen of both Genealogy and Awakening overshadow the first gen anyway, so I don't think it's that risky to do.

Besides, if preserving the characters'... "status" is that important, they probably shouldn't get married in the first place.

I see. Then I guess it's a Japanese thing then. Once I heard a Japanese man say that once you are older than 25 you shouldn't say your age around anymore, something like that. I have been wrong to assume it's common in all of Asia.

Also, sadly, preserving the characters' status (both as a young person and as a virgin) is very important in Japan, at least in this type of entertainment.

Regarding Zelcher/Serge/Cherche, I thought she was supposed to be older... since she fits the stereotype to a t and I remember reading in a blog post that she did lament the fact she was getting too old for marriage in the Japanese script of a support.

Well, anyway, I don't think this would be a risky thing if the tone of the game is different and doesn't rely a good part of its charms in dating and self-insert elements. The problem here is that it wouldn't work in Fates and Awakening because these characters have to be young and attractive, because the people who like this stuff really care about it.

Thankfully for Fates thing thing is less prominent, but it' still there.

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The timeskip doesn't have to involve killing the parents to make them not playable. Give them responsibilities other than being a roaming army. For a recent example, look at FEA. Emmeryn clearly has combat ability, but she's not fighting because she's functioning as the ruler of the country. (Though it also relates to being a pacifist, she could also just be a healer.) Skip ahead, make the parents have a new occupation, be too old to fight well, any reason really, that allows the burden of fighting for the cause to be on the kids and not the adults, while still allowing the adults to still exist as characters.

Edited by Vitezen
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The timeskip doesn't have to involve killing the parents to make them not playable. Give them responsibilities other than being a roaming army. For a recent example, look at FEA. Emmeryn clearly has combat ability, but she's not fighting because she's functioning as the ruler of the country. (Though it also relates to being a pacifist, she could also just be a healer.) Skip ahead, make the parents have a new occupation, be too old to fight well, any reason really, that allows the burden of fighting for the cause to be on the kids and not the adults, while still allowing the adults to still exist as characters.

it makes sense to me, we all know of the "bad ass old man" trope but in reality very few people are like this, so like maybe have one or two people from the first gen, but the rest, as you said, would be far too busy with other stuff after setting the peace in the first gen, then new problems happen in the second gen and its like "ok junior, this is your time to save the country, make me proud"

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I see. Then I guess it's a Japanese thing then. Once I heard a Japanese man say that once you are older than 25 you shouldn't say your age around anymore, something like that. I have been wrong to assume it's common in all of Asia.

Also, sadly, preserving the characters' status (both as a young person and as a virgin) is very important in Japan, at least in this type of entertainment.

Regarding Zelcher/Serge/Cherche, I thought she was supposed to be older... since she fits the stereotype to a t and I remember reading in a blog post that she did lament the fact she was getting too old for marriage in the Japanese script of a support.

Well, anyway, I don't think this would be a risky thing if the tone of the game is different and doesn't rely a good part of its charms in dating and self-insert elements. The problem here is that it wouldn't work in Fates and Awakening because these characters have to be young and attractive, because the people who like this stuff really care about it.

Thankfully for Fates thing thing is less prominent, but it' still there.

I believe attitudes about women marrying early are shifting. When the economy in Japan was booming, it may have been desirable for a women to marry early and start a family. Nowadays it isn't practical for many households to live off of one income (many unmarried people live with their families, even into their 20's and 30's), so even if there are some lingering attitudes concerning that whole "Christmas cake" thing (women are undesirable after 25) many women don't marry until their 30's. It should be noted that women are pressured to give up their careers after starting a family so a lot of women don't. Another important note is that Japan's social/societal values =/= the values of otaku/anime fans. Otaku are considered weirdos for a reason.

I agree that Fire Emblem's fanbase (the broader fanbase since Awakening and maybe a fair number of older fans) are too shallow to handle either a) half the cast dying or b) them aging. I want to blame IS for their pandering but it's the fault of those shallow fans who won't accept anything logical.

The completely non-canon route is the best path to satisfy all parties. The narrative isn't lobotomized (as much, we still have a lot of dodgy relationships) to accommodate children but they still exist for those fans who NEED this feature to enjoy the game.

Edited by NekoKnight
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it makes sense to me, we all know of the "bad ass old man" trope but in reality very few people are like this, so like maybe have one or two people from the first gen, but the rest, as you said, would be far too busy with other stuff after setting the peace in the first gen, then new problems happen in the second gen and its like "ok junior, this is your time to save the country, make me proud"

This would be the coolest idea, and it already sort of happened with FE6. I'd love to see it implemented in a FE game with child mechanics, with a plot where it feels legitimate.

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By making them not children. Let them be a unit's personal trainee/younger sibling/cousin/or simply another character in the story that couldn't initially fight for whatever reason. The fact that said pre-determined units train them explains why they would inherit their skills and stats. If marriage is involved, the spouse will also be in charge of the training.

So like... what? :| Say I get married and my second cousin feels like fighting with me against any threat afterwards?

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So like... what? :| Say I get married and my second cousin feels like fighting with me against any threat afterwards?

You don't need to get married, and can recruit said unit whenever you feel like it and their stats would scale along with your progress. However, without marriage, they won't inherit the other person's growth and skill.

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I'd love if they had more complex family dynamics which are determined on who you put together, if you do at all, which could be more easily implemented by limiting supports (so it's unlikely to happen.)

So like, if A + B get married, their child is totally unique to the child that is produced if A + C get married and there's no other way to get these children or something. That would lead to some neat support changes and family dynamics. Maybe even if one couple gets married/ together, instead of having a child they raise and train an apprentice / squire-type character.

Idk, something more interesting than [Parent 1 has child. Child's hair colour and stat mods change based on Parent 2.]

On a side note, I think it's pretty weird that you can have Harold playing with his 12-year-old son like a regular father and young son one minute, and then have Lutz marry the technically-20-years-older Kamui the next. The fact that he can then father a son is just... Works the same for Midoriko, Kisaragi and to a lesser extent Elise and Sakura. The execution just seems so dubious and off it just leaves such a bad taste.

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By making them not children. Let them be a unit's personal trainee/younger sibling/cousin/or simply another character in the story that couldn't initially fight for whatever reason. The fact that said pre-determined units train them explains why they would inherit their skills and stats. If marriage is involved, the spouse will also be in charge of the training.

This...I love this idea, but maybe not make the spouse the other "trainer" and use the A+ system, I don't like the current A+ system because it only makes Kamui even more special by limiting the other characters ,

but I guess in this case the main "trainer" should be able to have a A+ with every support and even have a A+ with their spouse.

but I'm not sure if we should get the trainee in the main story or a paralogue. I guess a paralogue would be better.

Edited by exizel
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By making them not children. Let them be a unit's personal trainee/younger sibling/cousin/or simply another character in the story that couldn't initially fight for whatever reason. The fact that said pre-determined units train them explains why they would inherit their skills and stats. If marriage is involved, the spouse will also be in charge of the training.

That's a surprisingly neat idea that wouldn't be hard to do in execution.

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Also, doesn't Fates have a lot of capturable bosses? Many of them have a lot of potential for an interesting dynamic with the protagonists since they were all former enemies or criminals. They don't share the same ideology and view of life with the rest of the cast, and would definitely have problem fitting in. Had they been developed as full-fledged characters with support conversations, we would have seen a different side of these people and their world that wouldn't be explored otherwise. I want to see IS develop more upon this foundation.

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it makes sense to me, we all know of the "bad ass old man" trope but in reality very few people are like this, so like maybe have one or two people from the first gen, but the rest, as you said, would be far too busy with other stuff after setting the peace in the first gen, then new problems happen in the second gen and its like "ok junior, this is your time to save the country, make me proud"

Not to mention the possibility of an amazing comeback in the final chapter. Instead of another Gotoh, you get the entire first generation back.

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As an aside, the stuff 8-4 translated as old man jokes re: tales of worked better in the japanese. What they were calling themselves/being called by others was a term of address used for anybody over 30, which they all were. With Jade in particular he was trolling to be called the sub-30 term of address (he took pride in his youthful appearance) and when he wasn't he'd really play it up. The english translation using "old man" works in some cases, but fell flat in others. Just hard to translate.

Anyway, like somebody else already brought up, if they really wanted un-aged characters a for a time-skip 2nd generation they already have the petrification angle they used for FE4/FE5. Something like that works better than hyperbolic timey wimey whatevers because it adds real weight/suspense to the story--the villains have the petrified parents stored away and the kids have to retrieve them, etc.

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I think more than ways to justify it, they could've kept it more simple. Just by saying "I came from an alternate dimension to help my parents. No need to believe me, just treat me as any new recruit" something like that. The feature is there really only for the sake of being there this time around, and attempts to explain it only made things worse.

Edited by Neofranky
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