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"Mage killers"


Espinosa
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Everytime I open a thread on something gameplay-related, I see people praising units for being "mage killers" which sends me back to really ancient and just as obsolete discussions and comments about units being fit to fight mages just because they have a higher-than-average resistance growth or because theirs were lucky to proc the stat a couple times.

Now, has Fates brought about any change in this regard that a "mage killer" is now a desirable addition to one's party? Because it seems that years ago people stopped caring about this form of utility and instead focused on units' movement, ability to ORKO and having low risk of death due to sufficient bulk and high avoid. Are the enemy tome users just more menacing this time around to warrant a specifically designed counter, or are the said high-res units more capable combat units in general?

I wonder if the game getting a Western release might reveal any fault with the recent (and hardly unprecedented) popularity for "mage killers".

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When an otherwise sturdy unit like a Great Knight or General can be wrecked by a single enemy unit (magic user), there is reason to want "mage killers". Ninja are particularly adept at this role, having naturally high evade, a weapon triangle advantage and high resistance. They can usually one-round enemy mages. Outlaws and Pegasus warriors are also high resistance classes that trade physical bulk for being reliable magic counters.

The nerfing of ranged weapons (for swords, lances and axes) and the lower HP growths may also be a contributing factor to the popularity of mage counters.

Edited by NekoKnight
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People have either good defence or resistance, and rarely both. And it can be pretty dangerous to have a high-Def, but low-Res unit to face magic users. They can gang up on the player (enemies of the same type tend to be grouped together, and magic attacks have 1-2 range), and your mighty General may not survive 3 hits or even 2. They're not Tauroneo.

Mage killers, especially the ones using concealed weapons, have high resistance or the Tomebreaker skill, have a weapon triangle advantage, and can deal with the 1-2 range magic easily.

Edited by nocturnal YL
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Everytime I open a thread on something gameplay-related, I see people praising units for being "mage killers" which sends me back to really ancient and just as obsolete discussions and comments about units being fit to fight mages just because they have a higher-than-average resistance growth or because theirs were lucky to proc the stat a couple times.

Now, has Fates brought about any change in this regard that a "mage killer" is now a desirable addition to one's party? Because it seems that years ago people stopped caring about this form of utility and instead focused on units' movement, ability to ORKO and having low risk of death due to sufficient bulk and high avoid. Are the enemy tome users just more menacing this time around to warrant a specifically designed counter, or are the said high-res units more capable combat units in general?

I wonder if the game getting a Western release might reveal any fault with the recent (and hardly unprecedented) popularity for "mage killers".

I'd say it's several things, really, but mainly the noif that ranged axes, lances and swords got.

Edited by Levant Colthearts
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Mages usually come in groups. Sometimes the game requires you to tank them. More often than not, they're also mixed with physical units, so you need to deal with both at the same time, but your bulky units often have low res to counter magic attacks. The fact that some 1-2 range physical weapons like Javelin cannot double attack is also an important factor, because the target mage might still be alive, so they are inherently inferior to hidden weapons.

That's not to say the people who're usually regarded as "mage killers" don't have any other use, or cannot kill other types of enemies.

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Generals have higher maximum Res&HP than Maid/Butler. It is strange to regard Generals as high-Def but low-Res units without mentioning any characters.

Sometimes we need to deal with mages+pahysical units, but we don't really need to tank them at the same time, especially when our tank is in a Guad Stance.

Edited by Tooru
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Generals have higher maximum Res&HP than Maid/Butler. It is strange to regard Generals as high-Def but low-Res units without mentioning any characters.

Sometimes we need to deal with mages+pahysical units, but we don't really need to tank them at the same time, especially when our tank is in a Guad Stance.

Well, I guess taking less damage from a single magical attack relative to HP matters little if you are attacked by several such attacks, in which case the unit who really tanks the hits (and could dodge much more reliably with Tomebreaker) will survive more easily.

Some good points have been made, but I really don't see why generals are cited as the kind of characters we should be using; since when have generals been viable in this series, aside from rare exceptions like RD Gatrie (also hardly exceptional)? Effie sounds promising, but possibly only because people haven't been playing fast enough.

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Generals have higher maximum Res&HP than Maid/Butler. It is strange to regard Generals as high-Def but low-Res units without mentioning any characters.

Sometimes we need to deal with mages+pahysical units, but we don't really need to tank them at the same time, especially when our tank is in a Guad Stance.

Maybe, but at the same time, how many Generals in the series have had high Resistance? Tauroneo's pretty much the only one I can think of off the top of my head... Also, I agree with Espinosa.

Edited by Levant Colthearts
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Well, I guess taking less damage from a single magical attack relative to HP matters little if you are attacked by several such attacks, in which case the unit who really tanks the hits (and could dodge much more reliably with Tomebreaker) will survive more easily.

Some good points have been made, but I really don't see why generals are cited as the kind of characters we should be using; since when have generals been viable in this series, aside from rare exceptions like RD Gatrie (also hardly exceptional)? Effie sounds promising, but possibly only because people haven't been playing fast enough.

When I say "higher Res&HP", I mean "higher Res and higher HP". By no means units with higher Res will be weaker because of higher HP.

When Generals are not used, there is no reason to worry about Generals' Res, isn't it?

Edited by Tooru
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Generals also only have 5% class growths in RES… Maids have 10%; Falcon Warriors have 20%.

Maids also have higher base RES than Generals….

It is true that they have a lower cap, but in main-game many caps won't be reached and this would probably be true of the general and the Maid.

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Generals also only have 5% class growths in RES… Maids have 10%; Falcon Warriors have 20%.

Maids also have higher base RES than Generals….

It is true that they have a lower cap, but in main-game many caps won't be reached and this would probably be true of the general and the Maid.

What I was complaining is that characters should be considered.

We do have General/Great Knight with better Res and Falcon Warrior/Ninja/Butler with lower Res.

Edited by Tooru
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Yes, even within the classes that are considered good against mages, not everyone has high enough res, which makes the few units superior in that stat stand out even more. Like I wouldn't use Ninja!Saizou and to fight magic users for example, when I already have Suzukaze.

It's also worth noting that in Nohr, most units aren't viable options for a dodge build, and you just can't trust this game's RNG. Not many have spectacular res either, even if they're not generals.

I think when someone labels a unit as a good mage killer, they're more or less emphasizing on the safety and efficiency when using such a unit to counter magic attacks, especially for tanking/killing on enemy phase. On player phase, if the target mage is within range and there's no additional threat nearby that's able to kill you, you can just use a powerful physical unit to ORKO or even OHKO said mage. Though in this situation, sending a mage killer also works, for obvious reasons.

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On the subject of dodging, even low hit stuff isn't really that low hit. I'd say that aside from swords vs axes, nothing else is really going to reliably dodge (and a 30% chance of getting hit by an attack that does half your hp is still not so good of a gamble)

But what I mean is that, there really isn't that much dodging in this game, from what I feel

On the actual topic of mage killer, I find it odd that there is a topic in the first place.

For me, a mage killer is just something that I use to give characters some points, but there are so many mage killers (about half the cast give or take) that it doesn't really matter that much.

Edited by CocoaGalaxy
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On the subject of dodging, even low hit stuff isn't really that low hit. I'd say that aside from swords vs axes, nothing else is really going to reliably dodge (and a 30% chance of getting hit by an attack that does half your hp is still not so good of a gamble)

But what I mean is that, there really isn't that much dodging in this game, from what I feel

Even Sword vs Axe isn't a safe bet. I recall True Blade!Kazahana having only a 40-50% chance to dodge enemy Berserkers (without Flowing Strike) and they could nearly one shot her when she was at full health. Dodge tanking isn't a very reliable strategy.

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The only good Mage killers are ninjas.

Effie sounds promising, but possibly only because people haven't been playing fast enough.

Effie should never go to General in the first place.

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Maybe, but at the same time, how many Generals in the series have had high Resistance? Tauroneo's pretty much the only one I can think of off the top of my head... Also, I agree with Espinosa.

Brom and Gatrie.

Brom has 25% and Gatrie has 35% and Taureneo having 50%. All the iron clads in that game have great defensive growths than most games. In this game with Defensive Formation skill...it makes it good with Anna becoming one since she naturally gets good growths in Res. Making it better to suppress the damage with Aegis that she can learn from my castle skill buy, or from a male avatar.

Edited by Princess_Elise
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Couldn't Falcon Knights end up as Player phase killers, with the correct skills or pair-ups? 20% RES class growth, plus Mirror Strike for -20 damage taken once you hit level 15 in the late game.

Hinoka can.

But Subaki... Even Great Knight Pieri has higher Res than him.

Most mages are getting 1HKO, so high Res is not important in player phase.

When we can't 1HKO, low-Res units will receive more damage. But if we wait for turns to heal them, the game won't become harder.

Enemy phase killers are also player phase killers so we already have enough.

Edited by Tooru
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