What I personally like about Nohr's story over Hoshido...

[Ryo]

I don't think it's Kamui being spineless as much he, like the siblings, genuinely views Garon as his father and wants to protect him. Even when Aqua shows up with the crystal ball, he still wants to make sure that there isn't any other way to save him. That's why he never actively looks for help, becuase he doesn't need it. It's just a matter of where the writers' driving the story. My point is that Kamui doesn't really lack conditions for a full-out rebellion, if they want him to have one.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Ryo

[NekoKnight]

Eh, the characterization is all over the place. If you side with Hoshido, Kamui specifically states Garon's crimes as being part of his reason for defection. I don't recall any terms of endearment towards Garon uttered by Kamui in that route. Even when you side with Nohr, Kamui is obviously unhappy about the things Garon orders people to do. Maybe Kamui is trying his hardest to be useful to his country and family, but I wouldn't really describe their relationship as very father/son-like.

But yes, clearly the invasion is the plot direction they wanted the most, even if it meant derailing Aqua and Kamui's characters.

[Refa]

That's why I wish they framed the story as Nohr needing Hoshido's resources to survive so the moral quandary would switch from "I'm on the bad guy side but I don't wanna be a bad guy! (then you shouldn't have chosen them, dummy)" to "This isn't the moral thing and I hate doing it but it's necessary".

Seems pretty dumb to me. Why wouldn't Hoshido just share their resources with Nohr (or let them purchase the resources, capitalism ho)? Before you say "because there aren't enough of them", I'd have a hard time buying that a medieval esque culture would be so resource intensive.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Refa

[arvilino]

I just watched the chapter 27 scene again and Leon and Camilla specifically ask Kamui why he never told them about fake Garon before and his answer wasn't "I didn't think you'd believe me", Kamui and Aqua just said something (inferred to be the curse) prevented them from doing so...except they wouldn't have worry about that had they just convinced them to go to IK before.

This theory actually makes sense, but it paints Aqua in a very negative light. By her own choice, she'd have been keeping secrets (even from Kamui) that could have stopped the war early on but she chose the least efficient way that lead to the deaths of who knows how many people. Does Aqua not care about the country that she grew up in or her siblings she had to leave behind? Kind of makes a dark foil for Kamui, when you think about it...

You're misrepresenting the story there though, Aqua's plan to stop the war was to turn Garon back to normal which she attempts during chapter 14, in which case keeping it a secret from everyone was for the best(since Macbeth followed Corrin to the Spring when they went to the IK) since telling anyone would be bungled the moment someone doesn't believe her or considers her claim Garon is a monster traiterous or lies. Additionally all the Nohr siblings and Aqua aren't together until chapter 16 where they're already on route to attack Hoshido. She never convinces anyone to go to the IK with her and if she attempted to convince Corrin tried to all the siblings intentionally the curse of the IK would make them disappear or Macbeth would notice as she or Corrin attempts to convince the siblings to go to a secret area. Additionally just a look at Invisible Kingdom's story shows how Corrin and Aqua if it wasn't for Sakura,Suzukaze and Rinka would probably end up killed by either the Hoshido and the Wind Tribe when trying to convince people of the "true enemy" that they can't name.

In terms of the plot and even remaining consistent with both the Birthright(in which understandly she never needed to tell anyone about the IK) and the Revelations campaign. I don't understand how you can see the story and then go "Well why didn't she just convince these people to go to the IK?", given the circumstances that in itself would be horrible writing if it succeeded(where people who were distrustful in Revelations would be immediately trusting). It'd be like the writer couldn't bare to make the story actually different so tried to turn it into the typical Fire Emblem story where you're mostly fighting bad people, even when they said from the get-go Conquest would be different from the norm.

Seems pretty dumb to me. Why wouldn't Hoshido just share their resources with Nohr (or let them purchase the resources, capitalism ho)? Before you say "because there aren't enough of them", I'd have a hard time buying that a medieval esque culture would be so resource intensive.

Why would they share resources with a Kingdom that's going around conquering other ones? Nohr even if it wasn't under an evil rule would pretty much be their antithesis.

Edited November 17, 2015 by arvilino

[NekoKnight]

Seems pretty dumb to me. Why wouldn't Hoshido just share their resources with Nohr (or let them purchase the resources, capitalism ho)? Before you say "because there aren't enough of them", I'd have a hard time buying that a medieval esque culture would be so resource intensive.

Incompatible cultures. If Nohr were a country/empire built on aggressive military conquest, it's not hard to see why Hoshido wouldn't want anything to do with them. Even as far as trading goes, maybe Hoshido has everything they need and don't have a reason to trade with Nohr, at least not enough to satisfy all of Nohr's wants and needs.

Of course, this is just one scenario. It doesn't NEED to set up that way (I'm just making inferences based on the original advertised premise).

[Refa]

Fair enough. I'd definitely appreciate if the game adhered more to the original advertised premise as well.

[NeonZ]

- Kamui could also have revealed the Invisible Kingdom anyway, and get killed in the process. This should convince at least some of the siblings. If Izana can do it, why not Kamui.

​

Nohr Kamui doesn't know about the whole 'Invisible Kingdom is the true enemy behind everything' bit though. He just knows that there was some other aggressive kingdom in that other dmension whose name can't be mentioned outside of it.

[alguidrag]

The ATrio was really bad in they mission, because they had all the hints about kamui

-sure they know that Kamui was in hoshido before.

-The only one to transform into a dragon???

-Sadly i don't know if they listen kamui conversation with rainbow sage, because if they heard of he speaking of "the secret of fire emblem" they would surely know of anankos words about the legendary weapons)

-Maybe they forgot their mission

-Or just they're all children of Robin and his amnesia is genetic

[RPGatWill]

I want to comment, but I'll have to wait until I've played the Nohr story in the english version. Who knows, maybe they'll have addressed one or two of the issues people had just enough without drastic changes to make people a tad more accepting of it.

[Ryo]

She never convinces anyone to go to the IK with her and if she attempted to convince Corrin tried to all the siblings intentionally the curse of the IK would make them disappear or Macbeth would notice as she or Corrin attempts to convince the siblings to go to a secret area.

I don't understand this part. Can you rephrase it?

About Macbeth, I'm pretty sure Aqua doesn't know that he's watching them, otherwise she wouldn't be wandering alone at night doing suspicious things in the first place. So from her perspective, there's no reason not to bring Kamui and the available siblings to IK.

[NekoKnight]

-Or just they're all children of Robin and his amnesia is genetic

I'm imagining a conversation between Kamui and Amiibo Robin:

"Why did you leave your world to come to ours?"

"My 3 wives learned about each other and came looking for me."

Cordelia followed him into Fates

Edited November 17, 2015 by NekoKnight

[arvilino]

I don't understand this part. Can you rephrase it?

About Macbeth, I'm pretty sure Aqua doesn't know that he's watching them, otherwise she wouldn't be wandering alone at night doing suspicious things in the first place. So from her perspective, there's no reason not to bring Kamui and the available siblings to IK.

Aqua never convinces anyone directly to go with her(and the only oppurtunity she had was getting Corrin there and it was for the purpose of "hiding" in Revelations). Corrin in Conquest only follows her by coincidence of not being able to sleep and then following her. If she made a concerted effort to convince them all toegther she'd either end up disappearing or would be taking a massive risk trying to convince four people simultaneously to go to a place she cannot mention to them to tell them about something she can't mention. Ontop of this it would be a meeting between Corrin, Aqua, Camilla, Elise and Leon which kind of moment that would obviously be watched and would end badly if anyone was eavesdropping or Camilla and/or Leon wouldn't believe them.

Also to the bolded, she doesn't know that someone literally is watching(Corrin and Macbeth) but sneaking about at night is typically to try and ensure nobody would be watching. Plus she has every reason not to bring anybody to the Invisible Kingdom as one doubter or mispoke word would ruin the whole thing.

Edited November 17, 2015 by arvilino

[Dark Sage]

You're misrepresenting the story there though, Aqua's plan to stop the war was to turn Garon back to normal which she attempts during chapter 14, in which case keeping it a secret from everyone was for the best(since Macbeth followed Corrin to the Spring when they went to the IK) since telling anyone would be bungled the moment someone doesn't believe her or considers her claim Garon is a monster traiterous or lies. Additionally all the Nohr siblings and Aqua aren't together until chapter 16 where they're already on route to attack Hoshido. She never convinces anyone to go to the IK with her and if she attempted to convince Corrin tried to all the siblings intentionally the curse of the IK would make them disappear or Macbeth would notice as she or Corrin attempts to convince the siblings to go to a secret area. Additionally just a look at Invisible Kingdom's story shows how Corrin and Aqua if it wasn't for Sakura,Suzukaze and Rinka would probably end up killed by either the Hoshido and the Wind Tribe when trying to convince people of the "true enemy" that they can't name.

In terms of the plot and even remaining consistent with both the Birthright(in which understandly she never needed to tell anyone about the IK) and the Revelations campaign. I don't understand how you can see the story and then go "Well why didn't she just convince these people to go to the IK?", given the circumstances that in itself would be horrible writing if it succeeded(where people who were distrustful in Revelations would be immediately trusting). It'd be like the writer couldn't bare to make the story actually different so tried to turn it into the typical Fire Emblem story where you're mostly fighting bad people, even when they said from the get-go Conquest would be different from the norm.

But the reason why the Hoshidans try to kill Kamui and Aqua in the Revelations route when they're trying to tell them that there's a true enemy is because the pair attacked Hoshidan soldiers and then ran off. A lot of their skepticism is fueled by that. On the Nohr route, Kamui would need to convince his siblings who he/she's sided with and been loyal to. That's a completely different situation and one where people will definitely be more receptive. Additionally, two of the people who he/she'd have to convince are Elise and Camilla, who worship the ground he/she walks on and they're not close to their father. Garon is also stated to be pretty much nothing like how he was before. IIRC, on the Hoshido route, Aqua also has the crystal ball and gives it to Leon, right? If so, there's no reason why she shouldn't show the crystal ball to the siblings, especially since she doesn't know somebody is watching. Also Aqua's song can apparently calm people down, so at the very least, she's not totally at risk of getting her head cut off.

Also in Revelations, Aqua is able to convince Kamui to go jump off the cliff to get to the Invisible Kingdom, which is how he/she learns about it in the first place. I really don't think it would take a lot to get Kamui to follow her to the lake. You could say it was to "hide" but that's a pretty lame excuse, considering how from Kamui's perspective, it would look extremely suicidal to jump off the cliff. If Kamui can be convinced to do something suicidal to "hide", he can certainly be talked into following her into a lake. It's not like Kamui's consistently written to begin with, since he's willing to stand up to Garon to save Kaze and Rinka at the beginning of the game but immediately submits to Garon later.

This also begs the question of why Aqua was going into the Invisible Kingdom on her own in the first place. I guess it was to get the crystal ball maybe? Though it again begs the question of why she wouldn't show the ball to both Leon and Kamui, because even if the rest of the siblings wouldn't believe Kamui, they'd be much more likely to listen to Leon. I'm ignoring the crystal ball and the curse being really dumb and contrived plot devices by the way.

By the way, the plan Aqua comes up with can't even be called a plan since it's basically the same thing as doing nothing: Garon invades successfully, he sits on the throne, and reveals he's a water monster. Isn't the whole reason they want to stop Garon in the first place because they want to prevent Hoshido from being destroyed? Good going, fuckers.

Additionally, why would Garon go out of his way to make Kamui suffer or get him killed? It seems like it would be much smarter if he was instead friendly towards him and his children, even if it is just an act. Kamui's established to be rather strong and proves himself useful to Garon multiple times; that's someone he'd want to make full use of and whose loyalty he'd value highly. It is much less likely that you will be betrayed if you are loved instead of loathed.

On another note, if Nohr's story was Kamui launching a rebellion from the inside and actively fighting their soldiers, it would still be different from the norm since a)the goal would be reform and b)he/she would mainly be fighting their countrymen. That alone has some moral ambiguity and could make Kamui feel conflicted, but especially if it's emphasized that the soldiers are people too, with families and differing opinions on what Nohr is doing. Though it's not like the invasion plot is a bad idea, because Nohr has legitimate reasons to invade Hoshido, which is because they're short on food and their lands are barren while Hoshido is lush and fertile. Kamui would have legitimate reasons to go along with the invasion because he'd want to ensure the Nohrian people's survival and puts their lives at a higher priority than the Hoshidans. Instead, we get a situation where Kamui regrets going with Nohr, but since the writers couldn't think of a normal reason why Kamui would go along with it, they instead come up with poorly written plot devices like the crystal ball and the curse so Kamui can go along with the invasion and still look good, which is one of the flaws of the Blood Pact in RD and why it was so awful.

Why would they share resources with a Kingdom that's going around conquering other ones? Nohr even if it wasn't under an evil rule would pretty much be their antithesis.

I think the real question is why doesn't Hoshido know about Nohr's resource problems when they have spies in there and constant contact. It's perfectly reasonable if Hoshido doesn't want to give out resources to Nohr, especially since the conflict mirrors the Lenster/Thracia conflict rather closely.

[Time the Crestfallen]

To be honest, my biggest gripe with Nohr's story is how they outright lied about the 'revolutionise the kingdom from within' theme. Let's take a look at the Nohr story, shall we?

-You begin by going back to Nohr and Garon tells you to suppress the Ice Tribe rebellion as a means of proving your loyalty, which you then do.

-Your next order is to go to Noltradia and see the Rainbow Sage. After you pass the trial, Iago orders you to kill him and no, just because he dies from old age or whatever doesn't excuse it, it's just another cop-out by the writers so that Kamui doesn't have to get his hand dirty.

-Then you go to Chevalier to suppress another rebellion. Ganz commits war crimes while Kamui stands to the side and looks sad.

-The next missions are a break in Muse (nothing wrong here) and the infamous chapter 15 in which Azura proposes that the only way to reveal Gooron and save Nohr...is to conquer Hoshido i.e. exactly what Nohr wants and the entire reason for them starting the war in the first place!

-Of course, the next...what, ten or eleven missions are framed around invading Hoshido, many of which involve Ganz and Iago committing war crimes which Kamui reacts to with the classic 'stand to the side and look sad'.

-By the end of the story, Gooron is dead and Xander is the king, yes. But...so what? Several rebellions have been violently put down in the meantime, Hoshido has been conquered and is now a Vassal State (unless I remember the ending incorrectly, in which case I apologise) and I'm not sure if Xander gives any indication that he plans on stopping the conquests.

So in hindsight, you do more to enable the glory-seeking country than you do to change it. Hell, you do more to change it in the Birthright path, as at the very least Nohr won't be able to go around conquering places, if only because they no longer have the military to do so and Leo presumably can at least be held accountable by the Hoshidan Royal Family.

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

To be honest, my biggest gripe with Nohr's story is how they outright lied about the 'revolutionise the kingdom from within' theme. Let's take a look at the Nohr story, shall we?

-You begin by going back to Nohr and Garon tells you to suppress the Ice Tribe rebellion as a means of proving your loyalty, which you then do.

-Your next order is to go to Noltradia and see the Rainbow Sage. After you pass the trial, Iago orders you to kill him and no, just because he dies from old age or whatever doesn't excuse it, it's just another cop-out by the writers so that Kamui doesn't have to get his hand dirty.

-Then you go to Chevalier to suppress another rebellion. Ganz commits war crimes while Kamui stands to the side and looks sad.

-The next missions are a break in Muse (nothing wrong here) and the infamous chapter 15 in which Azura proposes that the only way to reveal Gooron and save Nohr...is to conquer Hoshido i.e. exactly what Nohr wants and the entire reason for them starting the war in the first place!

-Of course, the next...what, ten or eleven missions are framed around invading Hoshido, many of which involve Ganz and Iago committing war crimes which Kamui reacts to with the classic 'stand to the side and look sad'.

-By the end of the story, Gooron is dead and Xander is the king, yes. But...so what? Several rebellions have been violently put down in the meantime, Hoshido has been conquered and is now a Vassal State (unless I remember the ending incorrectly, in which case I apologise) and I'm not sure if Xander gives any indication that he plans on stopping the conquests.

So in hindsight, you do more to enable the glory-seeking country than you do to change it. Hell, you do more to change it in the Birthright path, as at the very least Nohr won't be able to go around conquering places, if only because they no longer have the military to do so and Leo presumably can at least be held accountable by the Hoshidan Royal Family.

Not understanding what's the problem with the first point you bring up. Not entirely as even in Birthright once Kamui leaves he heavily hints that he will die soon after so Kamui is ignorant of his passing, but not so much in Conquest and while convenient timing yes, it's not a cop out as it is displayed in the other path (I really despise chapter 19 in Birthright because there is no compromise between Kamui and Takumi with the Yatogami's upgrade it just felt half assed in comparison with Leo in Conquest). Already explained this one earlier if Kamui tries to stand up against. Yes, but what you're missing is that they want to end the war as soon as possible while saving lives in the process (mind if you if Garon and his orders through high ranking subordinates Macbeth and Ganz aren't around) because having a war prolonged leads to more causalities on both sides nonetheless and Nohr!Kamui cares about both, but not so much Hosh!Kamui which as I said before I don't like at all and find to be a really bad flaw. Lastly Xander states he wants to make a just society and to work towards a peaceful world according here.

Edited November 17, 2015 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[arvilino]

But the reason why the Hoshidans try to kill Kamui and Aqua in the Revelations route when they're trying to tell them that there's a true enemy is because the pair attacked Hoshidan soldiers and then ran off. A lot of their skepticism is fueled by that. On the Nohr route, Kamui would need to convince his siblings who he/she's sided with and been loyal to. That's a completely different situation and one where people will definitely be more receptive. Additionally, two of the people who he/she'd have to convince are Elise and Camilla, who worship the ground he/she walks on and they're not close to their father. Garon is also stated to be pretty much nothing like how he was before. IIRC, on the Hoshido route, Aqua also has the crystal ball and gives it to Leon, right? If so, there's no reason why she shouldn't show the crystal ball to the siblings, especially since she doesn't know somebody is watching. Also Aqua's song can apparently calm people down, so at the very least, she's not totally at risk of getting her head cut off.

In IK The Wind Tribe were going to kill them too and had no place in the conflict(infact they doubt them to begin with because Macbeth blackmailed them), Leon calls them out on treating him like a fool, Camilla goes along with Corrin inspite of the claims rather than because of it. In regards to convincing the siblings the same ones(Xander in particular) who would have killed him or her as of chapter 27 of the Nohr campaign if the claim that Garon is a monster is a lie and that's after the whole campaign, what you're saying would require them to trust Corrin and Aqua on their word and a crystal very early on in the plot, in Leon's case right before the war starts and Xander's case the earliest opportunity is when they're on their way to fight Hoshido.

Additionally the Hoshido route is a different case, her giving the crystal ball to Leon on the Hoshido route couldn't backfire whether he believed it or not the same way it could on the Nohr route, where convincing the siblings would require them convincing all of them at once. Which again would require all them to be unrealistically trustworthy and ready to turn on Garon in an instant without real proof which would be a load of bunk plot-wise because of how loyal Xander was to him(If Garon was human Corrin would be 1 head shorter as of the start of chapter 27). It would require the siblings to react the same way a stranger(i.e. the player) would to Garon and turn on Garon because he's acting differently and a crystal says he's a monster with the source of the claim being someone with strong ties to Hoshido.

Edited November 17, 2015 by arvilino

[Sunwoo]

Nohr's story relies on plot contrivances and people being characterized for the worse for it to work … which is an indicator that it really doesn't even work. Neither Hoshido nor Nohr are particularly good at this, but Nohr especially is really bad in making Kamui or any of the characters really have an emotional stake in things.

Kamui feels guilty about having picked Hoshido over Nohr. Okay, but why? Do they feel guilty about betraying Mikoto's sacrifice? Are they convinced Hoshido is in the right but ultimately too connected to the Nohr siblings? Or does the game have Hoshido bias and it just bleeds through in making Kamui feel bad about betraying Hoshido? It makes absolutely no sense how Kamui is fine with killing Nohrian soldiers and accepts it as a necessity of war, but doesn't want to kill Hoshidan soldiers and somehow managed to get through the entirety of chapter 12 without killing a single person … I mean WAT?!

Slime Garon is the absolute worst thing that came out of any FE game, hands down. The Nohr siblings struggling between the love they have for their father, but knowing their father has lost his mind and is not good for Nohr? Lol, who wants any of that? Just put in a slime monster so they can conveniently turn on him without feeling bad about it! Plus, all of the Nohr siblings seem like such doormats in Nohr route. Oh, sure, none of them like Garon so they're all just gonna follow his orders even if they know they can be executed on the spot for displeasing him. So they continue disobeying his orders behind his back but be good little doormats who can't betray him. Now, if their refusal to go against him were written more in a way that mirrored abused children not being able to leave their abusive parent, that's one thing. But the way the game is written just makes them all look extremely stupid, where they seem to bounce back and forth between "Father's orders are insane" and "how dare you imply Father is not right!" Just make up your minds???

Also, it's not like Aqua and Kamui tried any other method besides invading Hoshido to reveal the truth about Garon. They were just like, "No, we HAVE to do this, it's the only way" without really showing any OTHER ways aside from Aqua's failed dance. But come on, you have to do more than just that before giving up and invading a country. Really, it's selfishness that they'd level an entire country just to get Garon on the throne with no consideration for the country they are destroying. And that would be FINE if Kamui were portrayed as being selfish and caring only about Nohr. But … they're not, and we're expected to sympathize with them and believe that they still want to save Hoshido. To the point where Ryouma kills himself to protect Kamui, Hinoka cares more about the enemy Kamui than Sakura and Takumi, both sisters forgive Kamui for destroying their country and killing their brothers, and the only sane Hoshidan sibling in this entire mess (Takumi) gets possessed and told that he's wrong by the fucking writers.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Related to the above, I find it absolutely hilarious how Takumi is being possessed/driven insane by Anankos, but he still comes across as the most grounded and realistically portrayed character in the Nohr route.

Edited November 17, 2015 by Phillius

[Sunwoo]

Obviously the Nohr route tried to make Takumi in the wrong for disliking and distrusting Kamui. They failed.

The problem with Nohr is that Nohr is portrayed as the "wrong" path, but they want to make Nohr!Kamui a paragon of pureness. Which just makes them stupid and the story make no sense.

[Time the Crestfallen]

True, but I reckon that having Kamui go Paragon instead of Renegade in the Nohr path could've worked if they actually suffered for it in any way. Sigurd was an honorable and kind character and he paid out the ass for it in his story, because his enemies were more than capable of exploiting it and the setting itself doesn't take kindly to those sorts of characters (I think...I haven't played FE4 in a while, but I'm pretty sure the setting isn't a nice place).

I believe that Kamui should've started trying to fix things, but trying to do so in an optimistic way kept failing and they gradually should've resorted to shadier and more morally questionable methods of doing so, such as assassinating someone who encourages war instead of trying to debate with them (that's an extreme example, but I think you guys know what I mean).

Edited November 17, 2015 by Phillius

[AbsoluteZer0Nova]

To the point where Ryouma kills himself to protect Kamui, Hinoka cares more about the enemy Kamui than Sakura and Takumi, both sisters forgive Kamui for destroying their country and killing their brothers, and the only sane Hoshidan sibling in this entire mess (Takumi) gets possessed and told that he's wrong by the fucking writers.

Where are you getting the indication that Hinoka values Kamui more than them? You have to remember that Kamui is the sibling that she trained and fought for in the first place and even then in chapter 11 she is fully prepared to stop him having realize Kamui's resolve. Buildings can always be rebuilt so they probably care less about such a thing and even Nohr is helping with reconstructing it, Hinoka and Sakura forgive Kamui because it couldn't be helped due to the circumstances had Kamui decided to tell Garon he won't kill Ryoma then simply both him for treason and Ryoma will die thus Hinoka and Sakura losing another sibling and Takumi's situtation was probably already explained to them by Aqua. Also no Takumi isn't he wants to group every single Nohrian as monsters for the actions of some doing misdeeds.That's not sane that's bigotry.

Edited November 17, 2015 by AbsoluteZer0Nova

[arvilino]

Also, it's not like Aqua and Kamui tried any other method besides invading Hoshido to reveal the truth about Garon. They were just like, "No, we HAVE to do this, it's the only way" without really showing any OTHER ways aside from Aqua's failed dance. But come on, you have to do more than just that before giving up and invading a country. Really, it's selfishness that they'd level an entire country just to get Garon on the throne with no consideration for the country they are destroying. And that would be FINE if Kamui were portrayed as being selfish and caring only about Nohr. But … they're not, and we're expected to sympathize with them and believe that they still want to save Hoshido. To the point where Ryouma kills himself to protect Kamui, Hinoka cares more about the enemy Kamui than Sakura and Takumi, both sisters forgive Kamui for destroying their country and killing their brothers, and the only sane Hoshidan sibling in this entire mess (Takumi) gets possessed and told that he's wrong by the fucking writers.

He is literally driven by rage against Corrin, Aqau and painting anything Nohr witht he same brush and both Corrin and Takumi apologize to each other by the end. Takumi for the way he acted and Corrin for how things didn't turn out how he wished them to do so. Unless you've got some evidence that Corrin is seriously being insincere during the game you're just posting fanfiction.

Edited November 17, 2015 by arvilino

[Alazen]

Takumi reminds me of how World of Warcraft has been treating notable Alliance characters who openly have it out for the Horde or Horde members like Sylvanas Windrunner as opposed to treating them with kid gloves or paling around with them as either getting marginalized, having gone too far, or being set up for Raidbossville (see Jaina Proudmoore). Path of Radiance did the "Archer character who hates the Lord" shtick better anyway.

But anyway, Sunwoo hit the nail on the head. Fates hits the player over the head with how Nohr is the "wrong" Path, especially when put up against Innocent Hoshido That Does Nothing Wrong. And yet, Conquest out of its way to not villify Kamui to the point that it doesn't really villify Kaze for helping Kamui in the conquest of Hoshido.

Also, there are no grounds to complain about the Blood Pact with the shenanigans rooted in it yet defend the likes of No Talking About Touma and Fake Garon with the shenangians rooted in them.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Alazen

[NekoKnight]

Slime Garon is the absolute worst thing that came out of any FE game, hands down. The Nohr siblings struggling between the love they have for their father, but knowing their father has lost his mind and is not good for Nohr? Lol, who wants any of that? Just put in a slime monster so they can conveniently turn on him without feeling bad about it! Plus, all of the Nohr siblings seem like such doormats in Nohr route. Oh, sure, none of them like Garon so they're all just gonna follow his orders even if they know they can be executed on the spot for displeasing him. So they continue disobeying his orders behind his back but be good little doormats who can't betray him. Now, if their refusal to go against him were written more in a way that mirrored abused children not being able to leave their abusive parent, that's one thing. But the way the game is written just makes them all look extremely stupid, where they seem to bounce back and forth between "Father's orders are insane" and "how dare you imply Father is not right!" Just make up your minds???

What really grinds my gears is how transparently evil Garon is but Marx flip flops between trusting/supporting Kamui and treating him like a potential traitor. As far as Kamui knows, Garon tried to kill Kamui twice before the route split and as soon as he returns, Garon tries to get him killed yet again. Garon sends Kamui on what everyone knows is a suicide mission and then cackles about how much he'll enjoy having Kamui suffer... and he does this all in front of Marx! Does that not set off any warning bells, Marx? Well it must have meant something, because Elise, Leon and Marx go behind Garin's back to support Kamui. But by the end of the game, when Kamui goes as far as supporting the invasion of his own homeland, Marx has the audacity to question his loyalty and threatens to execute him if he's lying. Fuck off Marx, I deserve a better brother than you.

The fact that it took Garon literally being a monster, instead of being a morally reprehensible human being, for Marx to turn on him is an awful failing in the story.

[Alazen]

''Garon'' is a cartoon villain answer to Rudolf and Trabant. Go figure that he turns out to be a slime monster, it saves the effort of actually trying to explore the Nohr King's ideology, cause, what have you, and brushes off the issue of trying to get all of the Nohr siblings to rebel against him.

Edited November 18, 2015 by Alazen