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ruadath

HHM Low Turn Count

  

19 members have voted

  1. 1. Who will get the most kills?

    • Hector
      5
    • Marcus
      9
    • Lowen
      1
    • Fiora
      1
    • Heath
      1
    • Florina
      2
  2. 2. Who will enter the most battles?

    • Hector
      5
    • Marcus
      10
    • Lowen
      1
    • Fiora
      2
    • Heath
      0
    • Florina
      1


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Well, with several 1-turn improvements over the standard chapter clears, I think it is finally time to consolidate these results into a single thread.

[spoiler=Turncounts]Chapter 11 (6 turns)

Chapter 12 (3 turns)

Chapter 13 (4 turns)

Chapter 14 (3 turns)

Chapter 15 (8 turns)

Chapter 16 (3 turns)

Chapter 17 (6 turns)

Chapter 18 (3 turns)

Chapter 19 (3 turns)

Chapter 20 (4 turns)

Chapter 21 (1 turn)

Chapter 22 (2 turns)

This needs to be done separately from the ranked LTC thread, because well, this playthrough won't be concerned about S-ranking but simply minimizing the turn count. I wasn't originally planning to do this, but since I'm ahead of the game by a good few turns already, I might as well see how far I can go.

I should note that Chapter 15 is really the point where the 2 playthroughs should diverge; since it is a defense chapter, there is a lot of flexibility in how one might approach it. In this playthrough, I'll probably be focusing of buffing up Lowen (mounted dude) and Erk (potential warper + need to offset massive Dorcas/Bartre/Guy EXP gain for Kenneth map). Obviously Priscilla and Serra will get trained up too, with the former taking priority.

Since this thread is now dedicated to this playthrough, feel free to give me some comments regarding long term strategies/investments; I always appreciate the advice! I'm a bit reluctant to play through Chapter 15, since there is really just too much freedom to figure out how to best optimize our gains. If you guys can think of anything, I'd be happy to listen.

EDIT: Since I've been making minor changes to some of the videos, I figured I would document them here for reference purposes

[spoiler=Changes to Videos]Chapter 14: Reorder actions on turn 3. In particular, begin by burning 2 RNs, then have Marcus critkill with the javelin, then Dorcas critkill the archer, etc... Lowen should still get the same level, but Bartre and Rebecca get different levels

Chapter 15: On the final turn, let Marcus attack from the east instead of north so that he aggros one more enemy. Let Oswin move above the merc so he can't get to Eliwood/Serra. Erk needs to burn a few more RNs, and Hector gets a slightly worse level (no Def increase).

Chapter 16: Lyn should purchase a Steel Lance instead of an Iron Lance on the first turn. Kent should then attack on the second turn with his Iron Sword (instead of the Steel Lance). Eliwood then has to burn 1 RN less before leveling up.

Chapter 17: position Lowen two spaces further west at the end of turn 5 so that he aggros an enemy archer for some extra EXP. To get the same levels, start turn 6 with Florina attacking killing the thief to level up. Now an additional change needs to be made because Marcus will level up here (instead of after killing the nomad on turn 1 EP). Burn 2 RNs, then kill the boss with a crit+hit from the killing edge (he's not strong enough to oneshot without the additional Str proc). A few more RNs are burned before Lowen gets his level. Then do the normal thing with Raven and Kent (who should attack with Iron Lance, not sure if I used the Javelin in the video but don't do that). Finaly, burn a couple more RNs and get a level for Sain. Don't forget to grab the Hero Crest with Matthew!

Chapter 18: Florina and Kent swap Iron Lances. Florina should use the Secret Book here. On turn 2 EP, a merc that should attack Hector will choose to attack Sain instead. If Lowen remains in the same position, the PK that normally attacks Hector will instead go after him. (to be cont.)

Chapter 20/21: Florina no longer has to use the Secret Book since she used it back in Chapter 18. Erk should also should no longer promote in the middle of Chapter 20 and should instead promote in the Chapter 21 preparations screen (along with Florina).

Edited by ruadath

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I think most of HHM has already been optimized now that you've shaved off 3 turns in the early game. The only chapters that I see with potential room for improvement are rout maps like CoD. Apart from that it probably wouldn't be very different from Horace's/Lapogne's run [except the turns you lose for not having an additional Paladin] from here on.

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I think most of HHM has already been optimized now that you've shaved off 3 turns in the early game. The only chapters that I see with potential room for improvement are rout maps like CoD. Apart from that it probably wouldn't be very different from Horace's/Lapogne's run [except the turns you lose for not having an additional Paladin] from here on.

There is still something to be said for actually carrying it out though. Am I actually forced to lose any turns because of the lack of additional Paladin? I'm not convinced that I can't 6 turn clear Chapter 16 without Kentadin. Also, I need to be careful about my warp training, since

1) I don't have Canas, and it's questionable whether or not I will get Lucius (since it's already unknown if I can even clear the chapter in 6 turns, let alone grab Lucius as well)

2) I didn't have gobs of time during LHM to train Erk, so I don't know how quickly I can get him up to standard in terms of warping. Hopefully Chapter 15 as a defense map will help me make up for that a little bit, but I also need to train up Lowen as well (only level 4!)

EDIT: Also, especially since Horace's videos are gone now, it'll be nice to have another HHM LTC playthrough online that doesn't burn RNs every other move. Also, I anticipate seeing whether or not I can replicate the strat that lapogne used to shave a turn off Kenneth Chapter 27 by training Rath to a sufficiently high level in time without LHM gains (needs to promote).

Edited by ruadath

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Catching up for lategame chapters is ridiculously easy because you get like 20 free turns in Ch.26 and Ch.28 where you can spam staves with Erk/Priscilla/Pent to get 3 dudes to A-Rank if you need to and Rath can just destroy Wyverns in Ch.26 and promote once his stats are good enough. You also have Ninian who can serve as a multiplier for whoever needs [weapon] exp. Both should be pretty easy to facilitate imo.

I think you need a second Paladin in 17 to take Hector from Marcus and drop him in seizing range? I don't remember specifics, I can probably spot it if I dig through Lapogne's playthrough again. I also think you need a Paladin in Ch.19 for the fastest clear but Lowen might be able to hit level 10 just in time if you optimize exp gain for him, especially in Ch.15

Edit: Just checked the video for Ch.17. Marcus and Sainadin used the full extent of their movement on every turn and were just barely able to drop Hector within seizing range. Sain even rescued Marcus on turn 3 to get him one tile ahead for the next turn. I think Hector is going to be unable to reach the throne on turn 6 without a second 8-move unit.

Edited by Yojinbo

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OK, I see... well, at least that should make it easier to get Lucius.

And sorry every time I mentioned Chapter 16 above, I meant Chapter 17, as you no doubt could probably tell.

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I think you need a second Paladin in 17 to take Hector from Marcus and drop him in seizing range? I don't remember specifics, I can probably spot it if I dig through Lapogne's playthrough again. I also think you need a Paladin in Ch.19 for the fastest clear but Lowen might be able to hit level 10 just in time if you optimize exp gain for him, especially in Ch.15

Edit: Just checked the video for Ch.17. Marcus and Sainadin used the full extent of their movement on every turn and were just barely able to drop Hector within seizing range. Sain even rescued Marcus on turn 3 to get him one tile ahead for the next turn. I think Hector is going to be unable to reach the throne on turn 6 without a second 8-move unit.

Yeah, just verified this for myself... Oh well, that's disappointing. I guess it at least should give me enough leeway to recruit Lucius without any trouble, but wow, that kind of sucks.

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What kind of benchmarks does Hector need to reach to 4-turn Chapter 30? Asking because my Hector is a bit on the slow side, with 7 Spd at level 6 :(, and I need to know how important it is for me to rig him Spd levels. I imagine Str/HP won't be too much of an issue since he has proc'd it every level so far, and even though his Defense is a little lackluster, 10 Def is nothing to scoff at.

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he really doesn't need very much speed since he has a player phase and an enemy phase to kill the boss, and you can just rig a crit or w/e.

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It may actually still be possible to complete Chapter 17 in 6 turns with only 1 paladin. There are 47 squares from where Hector/Marcus (deployed on closest spot) start to the boss. Here is what needs to be done as a brief outline for Marcus; more details may get fleshed out later.

Turn 1: Marcus moves forward 8 spaces and ends his turn carrying one of the cavs. He is 39 squares away from the throne.

Turn 2: Marcus moves forward another 8 spaces and drops of the cavalier in front of him; let us refer to this cavalier as Cav 1. Another cav or two (and maybe Florina) need to be reasonably close by him. Marcus is 31 spaces away from the throne, Cav 1 is 30 spaces away.

Turn 3: Generic cavs/Florina clear out enemies who may be in the way. A cav (let us refer to him as Cav 2) moves next to Marcus. Marcus rescue him and moves forward only 7 spaces. Cav 1 moves 7 spaces forward as well, takes Cav 2 from Marcus, and drops him forward. Marcus is now 24 spaces away from the throne, Cav 1 is 23, and Cav 2 is 22.

Turn 4: Cav 1 rescues Marcus and moves 7 spaces forward. Cav 2 moves ahead of Cav 1, takes Marcus and drops him forward. Hector is probably lagging a bit behind now, so someone needs to rescue him so that he can get Give-chained to Marcus on the next turn. Cav 1 is 16 spaces away from the throne, Cav 2 is 15 spaces away, and Marcus is 14 spaces away.

Turn 5: Hector somehow gets given to Marcus. Marcus moves forward 8 spaces and drops Hector forward. This puts Hector in seizing range and things should be able to work out from there.

Think this sounds doable? Let me know if you have any thoughts or advice, or if I'm overlooking some detail here. I'm definitely not going to be able to move Matthew up to grab the northen treasure chests (and that valuable Knight Crest), so I'll have to stick with the southern ones. I'm also going to be unable to recruit Lucius, and it is unclear whether or not Raven will get recruited.

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Don't you need 2 Paladins to 4 Turn Dragons Gate? Losing a turn for the Knight Crest might be worth it in terms of it being the same overall TC but gaining a Paladin for strategical flexability.

Edited by Irysa

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Lapogne seems to get by just fine in 4 turns while having Marcus screw around in the middle of the map to get Lyn to Legault and then have him steal the Member's Card. I'm sure I won't miss either of those too much.

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Eh, you'll likely need the member card and to our current knowledge you need a second paladin in Ch.19 so I dunno how feasible it is. I also don't quite know if you can get all enemy units out of the way at any specific point without a second paladin in Ch.17 so I guess you'll just have to try it out. Or you could ask Horace, he also did the 6-turn strat of Ch.17 with two paladins.

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I always questioned that the member card is essential, but assuming it is (it should be very helpful if Erk gets trained to use warp), I still doubt you need a second paladin for C20. Florina + Fiora can just drop Marcus ahead in the opening, one of them drops Hector off on turn 2 and Marcus drops Lyn on turn 3 or something. I don't exactly know how it'd play out but there probably is a way.

Edited by Gradivus.

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I had been hoping that it might have been possible to give Raven a Killing Edge (via Priscilla) and let him kill the thief in order to get the Knight Crest, but unfortunately

1) the thief only opens his first chest on turn 6 EP (too late)

2) he grabs the Silver Sword, and not the Knight Crest

Oh well, guess I'll have to do without it (unless by some magic I can afford to shuttle Matthew up with everyone else)

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Hopefully that won't be the case. Unfortunately for right now, other variables in the run have pretty much dictated the types of level Hector get (the first 4 in Chapter 11/12 basically had to go as shown or slightly worse). I'm honestly not sure if I could have found anything better in Chapter 14 without dramatically modifying the strategy since there are just too many things going on that have to go "just right."

But yeah, I'll definitely try to get him Spd procs from now on, since I imagine that I won't be under the kind of RNG pressure I'm currently in for the rest of the playthrough (unless it turns out there are must land criticals in Chapters 17/19 or something like that).

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I think I've mentioned before that I suck at defense chapters, so I have a quick question which might be obvious to other people here:

Looking at all of the other clears of this chapter in HHM LTCs, they bring the obvious people (Hector + mounts + Eliwood + Serra + Erk), but also Oswin. Is there any real need to bring Oswin along, such as his high Str being essential for this chapter? I don't imagine I'm ever going to deploy him again (unless there is something I'm missing), so why not bring along someone more useful, like Guy/Bartre?

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oswin doesn't die and leaves enemies low enough to feed Eliwood or whoever kills

bartre and guy are just a waste of exp, and guy even might kill some enemies

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oswin doesn't die and leaves enemies low enough to feed Eliwood or whoever kills

bartre and guy are just a waste of exp, and guy even might kill some enemies

yeah, I just realized this after doing some preliminary routing. Thanks for the info though.

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Some thoughts in advance regarding Chapter 16 (and this time I mean Noble of Lady of Caelin, not miscounting):

The usual strategy has Florina advancing along with Marcus and Hector to help draw some of the blows away from Hector and make sure his path to the throne doesn't get clogged up. However, Florina is going to be pretty weak, and I don't think I can afford to have her flying around that area without getting completely owned by the enemy units (in particular, I'm guessing that the ballista probably OHKOs her). This means Hector probably has to deal with these guys.

Unfortunately, my slowpoke Hector doesn't stand a chance of doubling these guys even with a couple of additional Spd procs, and he needs 35 Atk to take out the toughest guy (26 HP + 8 Def + WTD). He's currently at 12 Str, so that's 32 Atk with Wolf Beil, but I doubt I can get him past level 8, if even that before the chapter rolls around. Any ideas?

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You can use Wil and Lyn to bait away some of the archers and Pegasus Knights to the south and kill them in like ... 2 or 3 turns?

Florina doesn't really have to do anything in combat except snipe some mounted unit that cockblocks Marcus'/Hector's path with the Horseslayer on turn 3. Marcus clears the main path on Turn 1 EP so all you need to do with Florina is get her in position on turn 2 to just reach a Cav and slay him. Turn 2 enemy phase can be kinda rough on Hector though, there's probably not too much you can do except rig.

Edit: Or you can just look it up in Lapogne's run. It's a very standardized strat that everybody uses.

Edited by Yojinbo

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Progress on Chapter 15 is coming along reasonably well. A couple of thoughts/questions:

- the Iron Blade seems to be fixing all of Eliwood's problems. For now (since he can't double anyway).

- I think I'm taking the slightly modified clear of Chapter 14 that saves a Javelin use by rearranging the order of actions on turn 3 to rig a Marcus crit. Bartre and Rebecca will never be deployed again so their levels don't matter, and this will actually allow me to end Chapter 15 with a 1 use Javelin. 1 use weapons are obviously good to have in store for tactical maneuvering later on.

- Matthew is obviously important to this run as a utility unit, but what about his combat? I've been rigging his levels with a priority on durability (HP/Def increases) over damage potential, which I think is reasonable?

- Also regarding Matthew, I believe there is a moment in the chapter where I will have a choice between Matthew weakening an enemy and Hector killing him or vice versa. I'm leaning toward Matthew because Hector barely gains any extra EXP from the kill (only 8), whereas Matthew gains a solid 20 or so. Think this is a good/bad choice?

- Piling on EXP onto Erk is a priority. I'm prioritizing a particularly good RNG sequence for a level on Lowen over him though.

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