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ruadath

HHM Low Turn Count

  

19 members have voted

  1. 1. Who will get the most kills?

    • Hector
      5
    • Marcus
      9
    • Lowen
      1
    • Fiora
      1
    • Heath
      1
    • Florina
      2
  2. 2. Who will enter the most battles?

    • Hector
      5
    • Marcus
      10
    • Lowen
      1
    • Fiora
      2
    • Heath
      0
    • Florina
      1


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There really isn't much of a point in optimizing Lowen's exp gain from now on. Since you didn't go for the Knight Crest Lowen won't get to promote before you obtain the second one [Eubans drops it] and his stats are looking sufficient enough at this point. He should be able to do his thing with a few level ups and the promotional gains. It's not worth redoing the chapter for it imo.

I actually have a save state right before I need to make the decision, so it's not that much effort. At the very least, option 1 is completely superior to the original clear (10 additional EXP for the cost of a couple Javelin uses), so I will almost certainly be taking at least that one.

Your main focus should probably be on maximizing Florina's exp gain so her stats are as high as possible when she promotes. You actually did a really good job at getting her a lot of Exp so far. Wouldn't change anything for now.

ruadath is probably going for Fiora instead, in which case EXP for Florina becomes less relevant; he already changed the topic poll.

Yeah, this was an unexpected a pleasant surprise. I thought Florina's base stats were beyond salvation, but having got her 3 levels, she's actually about as good as Kent at the moment (except for his Dracoshield boost to Def and higher HP), so she definitely looks usable. I probably will be promoting her instead of Fiora, since I don't want to completely gimp Fiora, while it appears I can probably get Florina to at least level 11 and some decent stats before promotion.

I thought 2 keys were needed for the quickest clear of Dragon's Gate? One for the first door and one for the door leading to the throne?

I don't know, I'll take a look at this. Perhaps Matthew can open the first door or something? Or in fact, I can even have Priscilla "Unlock" it.

Edited by ruadath

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There really isn't much of a point in optimizing Lowen's exp gain from now on. Since you didn't go for the Knight Crest Lowen won't get to promote before you obtain the second one [Eubans drops it] and his stats are looking sufficient enough at this point. He should be able to do his thing with a few level ups and the promotional gains. It's not worth redoing the chapter for it imo.

Just wondering, what are you basing this on? Lowen has to take on the role of Kentadin/Sainadin in this playthrough, so don't I want to get him up to like 16 Str/Spd or something like that before I promote him? Do you have any benchmarks in mind?

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I think his point is this shouldn't be a big concern for you. You have five chapters minimum before he can promote, and there are a few places you could send him you quick exp- the east side of Pirate Ship, the southwest peg knights on Dread Isle, and the cav swarm in Dragon's Gate to name a few. Maybe even a boss or two somewhere down the line. Hell, given the nature of the maps after 22 you might not need him to promote immediately!

Plus he's at 12 Str/13 Spd at level 8. Unless you constantly need him as someone who can sit through enemy phases while carrying someone or as another number in the rescue-drop machine, I can see him being at least 12 when he promotes.

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I see your point. One reason, however, that I have been keeping track of EXP and Funds so much is that I'm still interested on seeing what kind of results I can achieve in terms of ranking. Since by the nature of an LTC I'm going to 5 star Tactics, Combat, and Survival, I only need to distribute 5 stars between EXP and Funds in order to achieve an A-rank. This shouldn't be terribly difficult to do, especially if I aim for something like 3 stars in Funds and 2 in EXP, so I'm looking to tack this on as an additional goal for the playthrough (which is one reason why I was kind annoyed that I had to use the Dragonshield).

It's also interesting to note this kind of stuff for future reference in a potential S-rank LTC later on.

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I've been thinking about this Lowen level thing for a while, and here is what I have come up with:

For Dragon's Gate (Chapter 20), I'm probably going to adapt Lapogne's strategy and send Marcus, along with a couple cavs east to smash the wall and get Lyn to recruit Legault and steal the Member's Card, since I don't want to risk not having that (along with the Guiding Ring and Barrier he picks up as well). This means I'll have to have Lowen strong enough to dish out damage to Cameron and Darin.

Regarding the former, 15 Spd is enough for Lowen to double him with a normal weapon (although depending on stats, it maybe be enough for Lowen and Florina/Fiora to hit him with a Horseslayer once, not sure). As for Darin, he is easily doubled by Lowen, but the problem is dishing enough damage to his effective Def of 17. IIRC, the Heavy Spear is effective on him (though I think Lowen needs something ridiculous like 17 Spd to double with that), and hopefully that will weaken him enough for Florina/Fiora to take him out with something.

In other words, it looks like Spd might be relatively important for Lowen in the short term future, so it might be best to play things safe and stick with option 1. Any thoughts on this?

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I'm not sure why you gave two kills to Lyn. If possible you should see that Sain or Kent can grab them.

So I guess in the end you were right here. I'm currently trying to reroute Chapter 16, looking to see if it's possible to give the EXP that Wil and Lyn earned to Kent instead.

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Sorry about that! Just trying to keep you guys updated with the latest developments!

In any case, I've figured out a clear of Chapter 16 that ends with Sain and 4.90 and Kent with 5.80. This looks promising for a potential clear of Chapter 17 without the Dracoshield, though ideally I would like to level up (at least) one of the two of them during this chapter. It seemed quite possible, except that during the turn 2 EP, I had to equip Kent with the Iron Lance to keep him alive, so he (or Sain) missed out on a good chunk of EXP from countering the PKs.

EDIT: There is a slightly bigger problem at hand as well. If Sain doesn't get a level during the Chapter 16, he doesn't have the stats to survive the first turn of my Chapter 17 playthrough, even if he procs a Def level in the middle of it. My only hope (yet to test) would be if leveling up changes the RNG such that the second archer misses Sain or similarly if having Marcus take the slightly worse level in Chapter 16 changes the RNG favorably.

Edited by ruadath

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The "hopes" described above do not end up working, so if I want to avoid using the Dragonshield, I have to level up Sain in chapter 16 and get Kent to 80 EXP to have a chance.

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I've decided that I don't want to waste my time looking for a way to save the Dracoshield anymore, so I'm moving on to Chapter 18! Here are some preliminary thoughts:

- 2 units need to be dropped. Probably going to be Eliwood and one of Kent/Sain (likely the former)

- Matthew wants to steal a Pure Water, Elysian Whip, and the Guiding Ring

- Going to try not to do any shopping, though if necessary I might have Priscilla/Hector do something

I need to optimize EXP gain for Lowen and Florina (I'm sure Erk won't mind promoting a few chapters later), so I'm thinking of having Lowen deal with the guys on the eastern half of the map, and having Florina go for the boss kill? Marcus and maybe Kent/Sain will probably help ferry Matthew around.

Any tips or thoughts you guys have before I start this?

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Use Marcus to almost kill the boss with iron sword or slim lance and give the kill to Florina.

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Thanks for the idea, I'll try to incorporate it and see how it goes. One thing that I do need to worry about for this chapter and the next is when Marcus hits level 5; it seems likely that will occur before he faces Uhai (currently at 4.68), which is probably a good thing, since that should allow me to rig him a good level. I do need to make sure that this occurs when a good RNG seed is available, preferably not on an enemy phase, so this will probably be something I keep track of so I don't have a repeat of the issue with Chapter 15/16 (needing to restart to gain a few points less EXP).

Also, on an unrelated note, having a stronger Marcus than usual means he can break walls in Dragon's Gate with Dart's Steel Axe :) So no need to worry about getting his rank up to A to save money breaking the walls (not that he's that far off anyway).

Any thoughts on whether or not it is feasible to get Lowen to level 12 before facing off against Darin?

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The only way I can see that happening is if he gets the kill on Cameron. He'd also need to get speed every level to double with the Heavy Spear.

As if this wasn't going to happen already lol (he got Spd every level so far and only missed Str once).

Yeah, that was basically what I thought too. In that case, there really isn't a point to training him up so high, since with just one more Str, he can crit-kill Darin with the Heavy Spear, and with one more point of Skl, he has a 3% crit chance on him I think. I had been hoping to give him 4 Str+Spd levels so that he can double him down to 6 HP and then let Florina take the kill, but I doubt she can even do 6 damage to him anyway (without the Heavy Spear), and it's not worth it if I have to sacrifice a 100 EXP boss kill from somewhere else to get it.

It would be great if I had a more reliable way to kill him, but sadly it looks like a Heavy Spear crit will be the only way to go... unless someone has other ideas?

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Alternatively, if I'm going for a crit, Florina can actually do the job with 4 more levels of Str (1 from Zoldam, 1 from Cameron, and hopefully ~1.8 from random enemies on Pirate Ship, Dread Isle, and Dragon's Gate) and will probably have higher crit chance too. It's probably better this way since I can't really control the guaranteed level they get after killing him thanks to the crit, and Florina promotes right after this anyway.

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Giving Darin to Florina is definitely the best option if you can facilitate it. Shouldn't be too hard considering her and Fiora have to rescue drop a Paladin way ahead in the beginning and she's pretty much always on the front line.

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Just wondering: is it not possible to 1 turn the first half of light by having someone (Athos) kill the siege tome user in the NW area on turn 1 PP? Are any of the bosses just too strong to be ORKO'd, even with criticals?

It seems like another place for potential improvements to the original turncount (though it would require some heavy rigging, I imagine)

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Impossible without the mine glitch, Nergal doesn't move and you'd need to unlock 5 doors and kill 14 enemies to even open the big door, which just can't be done with 12 units.

It might be doable if he moves, but I'm 99% sure he doesn't.

Edited by Gradivus.

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So I decided to take a look at this again, and it seems Chapter 18 isn't going to be quite as easy as we assumed it would be.

Use Marcus to almost kill the boss with iron sword or slim lance and give the kill to Florina.

I was certain this would be the correct way to proceed as well, but Matthew does have to steal both the Elysian Whip and the Guiding Ring, which means at the end of turn 2, the formation will look something like this:

VrBXMwk.png

One of the shamans in the picture will attack Matthew and the other will suicide on Hand Axe!Marcus, but the point is that the passage will become clogged on turn 3 (Matthew has to occupy that spot or we won't be in range to steal from Zoldam), so the only way to proceed is to have Florina kill one of the shaman's from the ocean with a Javelin, which means Marcus has to take care of the boss. That in itself obviously isn't a problem, but it does mean that it will be much more difficult (if not straight up impossible) to get Florina to level 10 before facing off against Darin (necessary if we want her to Heavy Spear crit him), which means that it may end up being Heavy Spear!Lowen who has to do the job.

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Use a Cav + Florina to boost Marcus one tile on turn 1. That way, he can probably be 2 tiles ahead of Matthew on turn 2 and shield him from both Shamans.

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That might work, and I'll definitely consider it. Another possibility would be to not skip the intro cutscenes; then Zoldam spawns with 30 HP and 7 Def (instead of 31 HP and 8 Def), which means he can get killed by Javelin!Lowen + Javelin!Florina, so that Marcus is free to clear the shaman blocking the path.

This, of course, requires me to fullmove (or close to it) Lowen on each of the first 2 turns, which puts pressure on the rest of the party to get stuff done on turn 2 (I think turn 1 will end up working out better than in Gradivus' idea, not sure). In particular, Priscilla gets put in some danger and has to give up on healing for 1 turn, but I think it ends up being OK because Hector can rescue her. Alternatively, another method of easing the pressure would be to deploy Kent instead of Erk, but that doesn't sound particularly great to me since Erk is already looking to promote a couple of chapters late due to being behind in EXP.

EDIT: Regarding your idea Gradivus, I'm not sure that will end up working out for the same reason that stuff gets complicated in Chapter 17; without a second 8-move unit, it's impossible (AFAIK) to boost an 8-move unit to 9 spaces on the first turn. Never mind, it works out thanks to flying over obstacles in this chapter. Matthew doesn't get to steal the Pure Water though.

Edited by ruadath

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Believe it or not, I actually got a clear with Florina killing the boss using the strategy mentioned above, though I'm not particularly happy with it. A considerable portion of the levels were not so great, and I had to sacrifice a good chunk of EXP (a lot of the eastern map enemies were left alive) in order to make this strat work out. I'm honestly not sure the benefits of getting Florina to level 10 before facing off Darin are worth the loss of potential EXP to Sain, Lowen, and Erk, so I'll have to ruminate on this and possibly develop alternative strategies before I get around to recording.

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I'm thinking of posting the above clear, even though I'm in all likelihood not going to use it in the playthrough, just so that

1) you guys can see the strategy

2) I can perhaps elicit some useful/interesting feedback from you guys regardless

EDIT: Just for the sake of theorycrafting, it appears to me that (as is the case in Chapter 20 of a standard LHM+HHM playthrough) we are one space short of saving a turn here, assuming that we have two paladins. We would use Gradivus' idea to have Florina+ a Paladin drop the other paladin as far forward as possible, while having some other cav rescue someone else, and then the other paladin would be able to drop him forward on turn 2, but only on the stairs (one space short of Zoldam's 2-range). This would probably be moot anyway, since you would miss out on the Guiding Ring, and I don't think you get another one soon enough after Legault in Chapter 20 (but maybe Priscilla doesn't really need to promote early? not sure) Just some food for thought.

Edited by ruadath

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Sorry for the long delay in getting this up, but here it is:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8NVmvYVxVSc

I'm not certain that this will be the final version of the clear that I take for this chapter, but this is what I'm looking at right now. Comments are very much appreciated since the playthrough is now in a somewhat more open and malleable position than before (when everything was rigid due to the exact nature of the RNG manipulation in Chapters 14 and 17).

EDIT: Sorry some issues with the quality again, will update when fixed! Ugh, I'm not sure what the problem is; can't seem to get it to work out, so you'll just have to bear with the poor quality for now :(

Edited by ruadath

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