Trinity Mafia - Game Over

[Refa]

FTR, I claimed info about my trinity and who was in it because it would be obvious as soon as everyone in it posted during the night phase.

@BBM Fair enough regarding your Izhuark vote. For me, Izhuark lurking wouldn't bother me on its own but I think he's the most likely person in my trinity to be scum (yeah, not every trinity has scum but you get my point). It's not strong enough for a vote on its own but it's going to make me more critical of his slot (also because I'm generally having a hard time scumreading a lot of the active players).

Don't really get your Mancer vote. He only agreed with you insofar as that we shouldn't be claiming our trinities (actually, something that DID bother me about Mancer was that he never really commented on my claim despite stating that we shouldn't be giving out information). What do you think about his other content (in that one post, I mean)?

Eclipse, I'm not bothered by your Clarinet vote but a lot of your conviction in it seems to be based on outside information. I don't think fishing for information on trinities is scummy unless the trinity setup is like 3/3/3/3/1 and there's an ITP (but even that's more of an ITP tell and not a mafia tell).

@Boron Fair enough on your Mancer read. I was bothered because I didn't get why you'd care about someone not responding to a weak case on them (since town does that all of the time), but I can get where you're coming from now. I cased Clarinets for contradicting himself and having a forced reaction to Roxas quitting, Mancer cased Clarinets for sidestepping Eclipse's Clarinets case and trinity fishing, Eclipse cased Clarinets for trinity fishing, and Crysta cased Clarinets for talking about trinities instead of scumhunting and for having bad reactions.

[eclipse]

I have my own theories and whatnot regarding how the game is set up, but it's far too speculative at this point to be useful. As for the insomniac, what I would've done is not posted at all during the night phase, and let people wonder which side I fell on. To fully explain why I'm unhappy with setup spec would involve revealing both my role and trinity power, neither of which I want to do.

I'm well aware that I'm playing with a lot of hidden variables, but it's necessary for now. Some things need flipped role PMs to truly understand what's going on.

[Izhuark]

Okay sorry for being inactive : until yesterday there was near to no activity (at least a no activity i felt responding to) and bbm question was totally useless since my response would be just blaffling all around about me being bad at mafia. So i will read the thread again carefully but i wont be able to make an useful post until tonight (in 13 hour or so).

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

holy fuck guys deadlines in 14 hours

ill b back in the morning but damn. is shinori still in this game and has he posted?

also hey boron can you please tell me who you think should be lynched today and why? ill repay you by answering any question or 6 you got for me

[Refa]

Deadline got extended by 24 hours and Shinori hasn't posted as far as I know.

[Sunwoo]

also hey boron can you please tell me who you think should be lynched today and why? ill repay you by answering any question or 6 you got for me

I think I forgot you existed, whoops.

As of now, I feel the most strongly about Archer of Gold. His initial vote on Mancer was just full of questionable logic and wasn't ever really well explained. His suddenly giving up doesn't exactly read townie to me, either, and I could see it as a scum ploy to get people to back off.

The other players I'll need to look a bit more into. So far, on my initial read, nothing really jumped out at me but I can't say I'd been reading that closely either.

Yolo, who do you think should be lynched today and why?

[eclipse]

Kinda not interested in Roxas/Archer right now, because of the demotivation. Yes, it's null, but I think he'd make a better vig target, because I doubt he'll give off anything useful when pressured with a lynch in his current state. It sucks, but it's not like I can go into his head and MAKE him motivated.

I'm having problems making solid reads, because there's far too many people who either haven't posted, or people with minimal posts. Hell, my reasons for keeping my vote where it is are half-hidden, and it's frustrating. Perhaps things will be better when I come home tomorrow.

[SB.]

hi subs votals
(3) Roxas: Tiny Goddess, Omega, Boron
(3) Clarinets: eclipse, MancerNecro, Crysta
(1) BBM: Refa
(1) Mancer: BBM

(6) Not Voting: Everyone else

updated timer

ftr i assumed shinori had posted/was going to post soon since i'd seen him around on league

if he doesn't post before the time i get back from work i'll try and sub him out too

Edited December 1, 2015 by SB.

[BBM]

Boron, do you really see Roxas as being the type of person who would fake disinterest and quit to avoid getting lynched? As a new player, it seems much more likely to me that... he actually just lost interest and quit. Why is he worse than Mancer? I think Roxas worded himself poorly in his Mancer vote and I don't like it because it's formulaic and doesn't look at context, but scumhunting based on wagon position is something that's done in a lot of places. NSider was really big on it IIRC. What's questionable about the logic?

@Refa- Fair, looking at Mancer's post, I misread what he meant when he said that he agreed with both Eclipse and I. But this doesn't change why I find him scummy. He focused in on a select few Clarinets posts while ignoring others, and is making a bigger deal out of a joke post than necessary. Also, Clarinets literally just asked Eclipse to clarify her case because he didn't get it- what is asking all those questions about Clarinets' thoughts on Eclipse going to accomplish? It just makes it seem as if Clarinets is shirking content or something. Mancer's other content is just waffling on Roxas that doesn't come to a conclusion, which is why I specifically asked him what his final read on Roxas was in my next post after I voted him.

Clarinets, you should read the thread and give more opinions on other people.

[BBM]

@sb- what about tiny goddess? I don't think she's posted since the beginning of the game.

eclipse, there's no point in voting/not-voting people partially based on role/setupspec and then not revealing your reasons. It shuts down discussion bc we can't really analyze your reasons and have to take any response from you at face value. It's also useless wrt convincing other people. Either don't use your role as a reason to vote or explain it when you do. Also, I was rereading a little- if you were never planning on voting Mancer today in a serious fashion, why even vote him in RVS?

[ZoesMad]

Sorry guys fell asleep last night i'll have my post done when I get out of school. (8 hours ish)

[eclipse]

eclipse, there's no point in voting/not-voting people partially based on role/setupspec and then not revealing your reasons. It shuts down discussion bc we can't really analyze your reasons and have to take any response from you at face value. It's also useless wrt convincing other people. Either don't use your role as a reason to vote or explain it when you do. Also, I was rereading a little- if you were never planning on voting Mancer today in a serious fashion, why even vote him in RVS?

I believe I said "yet". Not "at all during this phase".

Of the people with more than five posts:

Clarinets - Despite having the most posts in the game so far, a lot of it was dedicated to setup spec, in a game where the host specifically said to drop the spec.

SB. - is scum for not putting ISOs out.

Boron - Has a lot of bytes, none of which stick out at me yet.

You - not interested in lynching you yet.

Archer - don't want to lynch right now because of that attitude.

Me - not interested in lynching myself.

Refa - not interested in lynching him yet.

Mancer - has one content post and a lot of questions to answer, with a better read on him dependent on those questions.

That's roughly half the game to work with. Crysta has one content post total and Izhuark's greatest contribution was stupid rolespec, but unlike Clarinets, he hasn't been around as much (which I hope he fixes soon). When I'm not interested in lynching most of the active people, it makes playing the game difficult.

[Refa]

^^Yeah, I'm basically in a similar situation myself.

@Refa- Fair, looking at Mancer's post, I misread what he meant when he said that he agreed with both Eclipse and I. But this doesn't change why I find him scummy. He focused in on a select few Clarinets posts while ignoring others, and is making a bigger deal out of a joke post than necessary. Also, Clarinets literally just asked Eclipse to clarify her case because he didn't get it- what is asking all those questions about Clarinets' thoughts on Eclipse going to accomplish? It just makes it seem as if Clarinets is shirking content or something. Mancer's other content is just waffling on Roxas that doesn't come to a conclusion, which is why I specifically asked him what his final read on Roxas was in my next post after I voted him.

Clarinets, you should read the thread and give more opinions on other people.

Oh, fair enough about your Mancer case. If I'm right about ~something~, I can see why Mancer would be bothered by Clarinets' trinity fishing but I agree that he misrepresented Clarinets' response to Eclipse. Reading back, I don't get how Clarinets' sidestepped Eclipse's case on him (he didn't even understand it, but he definitely made a response to it) or how he has a "wait and see" attitude. The last part in particular bothers me because like...he's responding to a case on him by Eclipse, and yet Mancer thinks that him not having an opinion on Eclipse is scummy. Um, no.

##Unvote

##Vote: MancerNecro

[SB.]

yeah, unless shinori posts before i find a sub he's donezo

adding isos now

[🔥YOLOSWAG🔥]

##vote mancer

not feelin his pushes. i see him consistently reaching for the lowest hanging fruit without being concerned about other players. id expect more original pushes from him but he looks like hes fixated more on people who are easy to make look scummy

[Tiny_Manakete]

I EXIST

##Unvote

##Vote: Clarinets

Don't understand what everyone's case is on Roxas? I don't necessarily think that her logic was that bad since it's only D1 and at that point it was RVS so... Plus her, ahem, quitter attitude seemed genuine, because of the multiple votes piled on her wagon I can see the frustration. I don't feel comfortable with a Roxas lynch right now, sorry.

I don't like Clarinets way of setup-speccing and asking people to confirm in what trinity they are in because it sounds like he's asking for a little too much information. Also he really doesn't have an opinion on anyone, like at all still. He still needs to say what his top scumread is and how he doesn't, or at least specifically not voting for them really bothers me. [if I missed it please clarify for me].

[Clarinets]

eclipse, there's no point in voting/not-voting people partially based on role/setupspec and then not revealing your reasons. It shuts down discussion bc we can't really analyze your reasons and have to take any response from you at face value. It's also useless wrt convincing other people. Either don't use your role as a reason to vote or explain it when you do. Also, I was rereading a little- if you were never planning on voting Mancer today in a serious fashion, why even vote him in RVS?

Dang it, I was going to make this case and it's already been said!

Anyway, this is what I was going to say.

##Vote: eclipse

I believe I said "yet". Not "at all during this phase".

You're still hiding part of your reason for voting me, and until we learn your reason for hiding it I will have to view it as suspicious.

fell asleep last night

Why do you need to apologize for falling asleep last night? So you didn't have enough time to post because your body needed rest, that's perfectly fine.

Don't understand what everyone's case is on Roxas? I don't necessarily think that her logic was that bad since it's only D1 and at that point it was RVS so... Plus her, ahem, quitter attitude seemed genuine, because of the multiple votes piled on her wagon I can see the frustration. I don't feel comfortable with a Roxas lynch right now, sorry.

This about Roxas.

(Man, I wish I posted in the morning. Everyone's stealing what I have to say...)

[Sunwoo]

Boron, do you really see Roxas as being the type of person who would fake disinterest and quit to avoid getting lynched? As a new player, it seems much more likely to me that... he actually just lost interest and quit. Why is he worse than Mancer? I think Roxas worded himself poorly in his Mancer vote and I don't like it because it's formulaic and doesn't look at context, but scumhunting based on wagon position is something that's done in a lot of places. NSider was really big on it IIRC. What's questionable about the logic?

BBM, I don't even really know who Roxas is, so for all I know he could be.

Mancer has like one content post and there's nothing in there that really stands out as "scummy" to me, that's why I feel Archer is worse than Mancer right now. I don't agree with his vote on Clarinets, but I don't think his logic for voting Clarinets is scum logic either. Also, BBM, I'll quote the questionable part of Archer's logic below:

OK, I've checked in again and I find it weird how Mancer and.... Omega? I'm just gonna call you that. I find it weird how quickly those two jumped onto my bandwagon, even if it wasn't quick.

You get the idea.

I literally have no idea what this means, and he never explained it either. It feels like a damn contradiction if anything.

Also, I went back and reread Clarinets because of all the cases on him. I didn't like his vote on BBM over his response to Izuhark, and I also thought it was weird how he told me to make an RVS vote on Mancer after I'd just made a serious vote on Archer. (And somehow forgot about it because I was busy the following day, ugh.) Dismissing eclipse's case as pointless because it confused him instead of trying to get a clarification seems kind of scummy as well. Also, using BBM's statement against eclipse to support almost the entirety of his own case is ;/

##Unvote

##Vote: Clarinets

I don't really have a problem with BBM or Refa right now, although BBM are you still suspicious of Izuhark and Refa are you still suspicious of BBM? I'm not interested in pursuing eclipse right now, she probably has reasons for hiding what she is (as eclipse usually does) and while it sucks not knowing what she's going for I'm not interested in going after her now. Everyone else I didn't mention needs to post more.

[Refa]

No, I honestly wasn't suspicious of BBM after like his first response to me but I didn't have anyone better to vote so I figured it'd just pressure him into giving me better responses. Also you didn't ask me this but I'm not really suspicious of Clarinets anymore either (he's...more of a null read, in that I can't really ascribe scum intent to his actions but he's like actually not really done anything so I'm not going to townread him).

[ZoesMad]

I literally have no idea what this means, and he never explained it either. It feels like a damn contradiction if anything.

Still working on a real post but I saw this and can explain since I've been reading the whole game. Archer thought it was quick because 3 people voted her really quickly, but she meant in physical time that the votes were not in super close succession, just in the time of the game.

[Sunwoo]

Still working on a real post but I saw this and can explain since I've been reading the whole game. Archer thought it was quick because 3 people voted her really quickly, but she meant in physical time that the votes were not in super close succession, just in the time of the game.

I … see? I'll … take a look at the votes myself when I'm not about to head off to class.

[Shinori]

Reading now. Didn't notice it started.

[Shinori]

I feel like Archer is being too paranoid about the RVS votes on him, and the explanation that it's weird how they quickly jumped on the bandwagon, even if it wasn't quick, makes no sense. No, I don't get what you mean.

##Unvote

##Vote: Archer of Gold

Mancer seems to be rather uncaring of Archer's vote on him, or at least has nothing to say about it … which interests me a bit but not enough to go pursue him at this point.

From what I'm reading so far I agree with this as well. A couple of votes randomly stacking early on is pretty normal and Roxas/archer WHOEVER getting jittery because of it is kind of sus.

[ZoesMad]

Just gonna go through the game and give some commentary in the beginning to display opinions, then some reads in the latter half of the post.

##Unvote, ##Vote: Izhuark

why does it matter?

BBM starts the game with a lot of questions like this without doing much with them. Something to take note of if it doesn't change.

Clarinets has done nothing but setup spec and comment without making opinions in his beginning posts (58, 59, 61), some easy ways to make it look like you're contributing when you're not. He also says first that giving trinities would probably be useful to the town, but later in 58 comes to the conclusion that we shouldn't offer info on them.

Why not? It's RvS after all and we're stuck pretty deep inside of it. I think you should go for it before the phase ends before anyone comes up with a proper case.

Something odd strikes me about this sentence as well, although i'm not quite sure what it is.

WRT the Archer/Mancer interaction - I don't like Mancer's reaction. There's nothing about Archer in his reply, which leaves the vote as a one-way interaction. As for Archer, I see his logic as RVS logic. . .which means that it'll fly for now.

How should Mancer have reacted? I mean, it was unknown to him that there were other votes besides him on the wagon due to the Roxas/Archer of Gold mixup.

that was uncalled for

So is your quitter attitude.

In all seriousness, I think that Archer of Gold's demotivation shouldn't be alignment indicative because it's a something that can so easily be faked by scum. That being said, I don't see a particular reason to be scumreading her (similar to what Mancer says in 82) because she (at least to me) was playing like a survival oriented townie. There wasn't scum intent in any of her posts really, and even if she was over eager, there was effort in her scumreading and no misrepresentations.

Oh yeah, forgot to mention something else. I specifically requested to sub in for 3rd over Rapier because 3rd is apparently busy IRL whereas Rapier is busy posting in FE topics and completely ignoring this game (so basically the one w/the greater chance of being town). Not going to jump down LG's throat for that because it'd be really lame but I'm going to be watching your slot closely, dude.

Is there any particular reason you felt the need to say this? Seems to me like it's a way to try and bolster your towncred by using non-game related circumstances.

Hi Crysta Bye Crysta. I know she's really busy, being scum with her multiple times, so that's nothing new. I don't really have anything to say about her post, good opinions, nothing too flashy, looking forward to more.

##vote mancer

not feelin his pushes. i see him consistently reaching for the lowest hanging fruit without being concerned about other players. id expect more original pushes from him but he looks like hes fixated more on people who are easy to make look scummy

I don't really feel this push either. There wasn't much to work with when Mancer made his one case, which isn't even that bad (not the most original but he adds his own questioning to it), and the Archer of Gold interaction was being criticized by (I think) Boron and he had reason to comment on that other than making it look like he had scumreads.

I don't get Mancer agreeing with both me and Eclipse, bc Eclipse was saying that trinity-fishing was scummy, and I was kind of saying the opposite? I don't find Mancer's case on Clarinets good, because sure Clarinets kind of sidestepped it originally by joking about it, but he did address it later by asking her to clarify. I feel like he's making it out to be a bigger deal than it is.

From my perspective it looks like Mancer was agreeing with these two points, and I don't see how they contradict each other.

I don't really like this line of thought. It feels like fishing for info on the trinities. . .info that someone who is in a trinity would know.

My logic on trinities is this: the mafia on account of most likely having members in multiple trinities probably have more trinity information than anybody in the town. Odds are also good that they don't know everything though, so there's no point in giving them info right now for free, just like we don't massclaim on D1 either.

You both state that there isn't good reason to give info on the setup, and there was just confusion of how you each came to the conclusion, at least that's what it looks like to me.

Oh, fair enough about your Mancer case. If I'm right about ~something~, I can see why Mancer would be bothered by Clarinets' trinity fishing but I agree that he misrepresented Clarinets' response to Eclipse. Reading back, I don't get how Clarinets' sidestepped Eclipse's case on him (he didn't even understand it, but he definitely made a response to it) or how he has a "wait and see" attitude. The last part in particular bothers me because like...he's responding to a case on him by Eclipse, and yet Mancer thinks that him not having an opinion on Eclipse is scummy. Um, no.

While I don't agree with Mancer's case itself, the only part I see where he is truly misrepping Clarinet's case itself is the "wait and see" part, which I don't think is enough to warrant a vote, as tonal differences . The part about ambiguity is still true imo (even if I don't think that it holds scum intent, because like you said he didn't understand it) and at least is a valid point. When he says sidestepping I think he didn't see an answer/defense to her questions/case and assumed. Again bad logic, but nothing scummy.

I EXIST

##Unvote
##Vote: Clarinets

Don't understand what everyone's case is on Roxas? I don't necessarily think that her logic was that bad since it's only D1 and at that point it was RVS so... Plus her, ahem, quitter attitude seemed genuine, because of the multiple votes piled on her wagon I can see the frustration. I don't feel comfortable with a Roxas lynch right now, sorry.

I don't like Clarinets way of setup-speccing and asking people to confirm in what trinity they are in because it sounds like he's asking for a little too much information. Also he really doesn't have an opinion on anyone, like at all still. He still needs to say what his top scumread is and how he doesn't, or at least specifically not voting for them really bothers me. [if I missed it please clarify for me].

This post is pretty light on content, but it has definite reads on it without being prodded for them which I think is a good thing for TG.

OK I probably missed some things but in the second half i'll make sure to clean house.

Eclipse- Her being cryptic about why she won't vote Mancer is annoying, but i guess she feels she has info that we don't need to hear in order to justify it. No problems with her content, think she's showing good effort + intiative, and 100% agree with the SB read at the time =)

Refa- Despite that post I quoted, there's nothing wrong with his content either, his questioning/unvoting of BBM felt natural to me. Disagree with Mancer case for reasons said above.

Izuhark- Should exist more. Has done literally nothing unlike Clarinets. I saw some people (can't remember who) draw similarities.

BBM- Early game kind of scummy questioning w/o doing anything with it, but I don't think that his Mancer case is as bad as say YOLO's (Mancer's response to the contradiction wrt you/Eclipse was a bit confusing), and his response to Refa felt legitimate in 94. Still wary of, but not a top priority.

Boron- Seems to get me wrt Mancer, on bad logic not scum logic in her second most recent post, don't have much to say about her right now.

Clarinets- Agree with most of the cases on him, and I would be voting him if I didn't want to bring attention/pressure over to YOLO. Contradictory, unhelpfulness, etc.

Archer- No scum intent in her posts, but nothing to townread her on either. People shouldnt be using demotivation as a factor to townread or scumread her imo. Too much WIFOM. Would like some updated reads asap.

Mancer- Don't agree with all the cases on him, but he needs to come here and defend himself. Should update his reads accordingly.

Shinori- Who are y- THERE HE IS

TG- Decent first post, looking forward to more content from her.

YOLO- Don't agree with his Mancer vote and it seems to me like the weakest out of all of them. When he says he picks for the lowest hanging fruit he's being kind of hypocritical because Mancer often comes under early game flak.

Crysta- Ditto for TG

##Vote: YOLO, Fos Clarinets

@BBM Could you explain why Eclipse voting Mancer in RVS holds significance to you?

@Crysta and TG What do yall think of Mancer right now?

[Shinori]

Also I don't really think mancer should have much of a reaction from just archer voting him. Kind of like BBM said, not sure what people are expecting.