Unit Practicality Thread

[Wayward Alchemist]

Okay so what DO you need more of in each route? I've heard about speed in Nohr, but is a tanky Corrin viable in Hoshido?

Don't wanna look like an ass quoting myself but this bit of my post was overlooked because I changed the topic.

[CocoaGalaxy]

It depends on what you mean by tanky though.........I'm not sure how to answer that in a more specific way since I don't know what to expect

As in, the growths for Corrin aren't very tanky based (to be honest, I think nobody is either)

The Dragonstone helps somewhat, but that might not be very palatable to everyone

On a class by class basis, the absolute best overall defensive growths is like 20 DEF/RES + 5 of the other...or you could be a Revenant Knight with 10/15

It would also depend on the general idea of tankiness you require

I'll be back with a bitttt more information. Not that I can really do that much anyway

The other thing about Dragonstones is that, comparatively, you get less Shield Gauge per battle, so who knows.....but otherwise the bonuses aren't so bad

Edited November 29, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[Ownagepuffs]

Don't wanna look like an ass quoting myself but this bit of my post was overlooked because I changed the topic.

Neither route is in heavy demand for anything. "Hoshido needs tanks" and "Nohr needs bows" is about as accurate as "Raven doesn't have the con to use Axes". Anything you would need is provided to you, y'know?

Edit: what constitutes as a "tanky" Kamui? I mean, you should always be in a sword class as Kamui because Yato 3strong5me so your options are somewhat limited. The tankiest you can get with Sword would be like Paladin or something and that's viable.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Ownagepuffs

[CocoaGalaxy]

For a certain definition of need, a general overview shows that you only have 1 axe user in Hoshido (well, aside from Crimson anyway...) that being Rinkah, so axes are in a bit of demand...though it seems this point is never really brought up that much. It seems most people would use either GK Silas or...not use anyone for axes really, Weapon masters are an option, though I don't really see *that* many weapon masters, and I've yet to see any other characters reclassed into axe using classes really

On the other side, bows are more of the fact that, you only get 1 bow user, though Eponine is also a bow user so it's not nearly as bad, somewhat. I have no idea about how many go Mercenary>Bow Knight, otherwise it's the similar thing of not really seeing that many reclasses.

For Nohr, it's more so that , comparatively speaking, the increased difficulty means, "players would prefer bows" to help them shoot down the fliers in one shot (which is uh, easier to do, I think...maybe I should go and check some numbers for this)

I'm supposed to mention something about Mozume being a good bow user in Nohr but I think about half more or less of people don't find Mozume practical in the first place, so I dunno

As for elite ninjas...eh

Though in the end, I guess it's still mostly subjective...there's nothing stopping you from playing the game with all magic users (ok maybe that might be a bit too ridiculous) or all sword users, kunai users, etc

Well...Nohr constraints..hmm..

Edited November 29, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[Ryo]

We have Crimson for axe in Hoshido.

[Ownagepuffs]

For Hoshido Axes, Crimson is the only thing you will ever need. Having at least one for hammertime is a good idea. Reverse weapons too good.

For Nohr, fliers are not common enough to warrant a "need" for bows. Even then, the only non Pegasi fliers you fight are in N13 which are Wyverns. Everywhere else, a beastkiller puts in the same work. Even the beast Shuriken is pretty amazing. If you need an anti Ninja unit, a trained Effie One shots them at 1-2 range regardless. You miss nothing by not having bows in Nohr.

[Wayward Alchemist]

Edit: what constitutes as a "tanky" Kamui? I mean, you should always be in a sword class as Kamui because Yato 3strong5me so your options are somewhat limited. The tankiest you can get with Sword would be like Paladin or something and that's viable.

Tanky meaning you can throw him into a pile of enemies and live while killing all/most of them without relying on Avoid. So yeah I guess Paladin would work but wouldn't GK be good too? Most Nohrian enemies aren't that fast and Yato gives a boost to Spd, and we haven't factored in skills, assets/flaws, or Guard Stance pairs.

[Luninareph]

Though in the end, I guess it's still mostly subjective...there's nothing stopping you from playing the game with all magic users (ok maybe that might be a bit too ridiculous)

Oh don't worry, I'll definitely be doing that at some point.

[CocoaGalaxy]

Well if you really want to, there only so many feasible magic users in the game......even taking children into account.

Plus the fact that magic users are largely very fragile, like, the least fragile magic user is either a Dragonstone using Corrin or so or uhm...Leo?

At any rate, the main thing would be it still kind of depends on how many is "a pile of enemies", I'd say about 4 would be an ok number.

Enemy skills can easily ruin your day, if they exist, and that sort of tanking is still a bit debatable, though Guard Stance alleviates things somewhat

In order to actually "kill" them, you kind of require the necessary speed to double (because relying on crits/skill procs is iffy at best), and balancing that and the defensive side makes it...I dunno

There aren't any like "one man army" kind of units in this game, even Ryoma, Crimson, or Camilla won't survive multiple units, especially if they have skills

(Ryoma could probably avoid tank but I'd still not really fancy my chances with 10-30% hit rates......honestly speaking I dunno)

Avoid is an odd thing though, a combination of high avoid, decent defenses, and guard stance practically makes you invincible anyway.....

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1uvPG5IV4rhjwzTaK54pNTKCMauHJ9TXa1Sr6GPzA6lc/edit?usp=sharing

I really ought to actually iron out the Weapon Rank Bonuses and WTA/D, but oh well....

(I can't remember when was the last time I actually went digging for FE14 data)

IMO I haven't played the game yet, but at the very least, one rounding enemies doesn't seem as hard as FE9 or so

(I may be biased though)

That, or it might be due to "Spam Silvers" strategies, or who knows

Classically speaking, by Endgame, enemies will have about 40 ATK or more, the stronger ones might be pushing 50 or so, and the weaker ones maybe 35 or so.

Speed varies a lot, as does defense, so offensive requirements to ORKO can vary a lot.....

Edited November 29, 2015 by CocoaGalaxy

[Wayward Alchemist]

I'm not talking about a map-clearing, game-soloing badass, but just someone that can be on the front lines and can hold a choke point for a while so your healers can patch some people up or someone can visit villages or something. The only real comparison I can give is the awesomeness that was Great Knight Franz (don' judge) in FE8. I think GK is adequate Speed wise since Yato gives Speed, Kamui will probably be in Guard Stance most of the time and a lot of Hoshidan classes give Speed, he has a good growth, and Nohrians don't have that high of Speed to begin with. Basically a second, better Silas.

[astrophys]

Well if you really want to, there only so many feasible magic users in the game......even taking children into account.

Plus the fact that magic users are largely very fragile, like, the least fragile magic user is either a Dragonstone using Corrin or so or uhm...Leo?

Well, you could go with a +MAG Dark Knight or something like that if you wanted to avoid fragility. I'll give the example of +MAG/-LCK, as while that does hurt magic growth slightly, it doesn't harm either defense or resistance.

DISCLAIMER: I have NOT played the game yet. This is theory-crafting only. Take this all with a grain of salt.

+MAG/-LCK Personal Growths:

45% HP / 40% Str / 45% Mag / 40% Skl / 50% Spd / 25% Lck / 35% Def / 30% Res

Dark Knight Growths:

15% HP / 20% Str / 10% Mag / 5% Skl / 5% Spd / 5% Lck / 15% Def / 5% Res

Combined Growths:

60% HP / 60% Str / 55% Mag / 45% Skl / 55 % Spd / 30% Lck / 50% Def / 35% Res

Class Base Stats:

19 HP / 8 Str / 6 Mag / 6 Skl / 5 Spd / 3 Lck / 8 Def/ 6 Res / 8 Move

+MAG also gives +3 to personal base magic, and -LCK gives -2 to personal base LCK.

Now, this Dark Knight is actually more of a hybrid unit, and does have as extreme magic growth as some of the other classes, but a 20/20 unit [not that you'll get that high] would still end with 30.9 MAG {only on average; actual results may differ} [cap: 34]; 20/15 would get 28.15 MAG on average.

But anyways, this is more to address the complaint of a "fragile" magic user.

This setup would offer you 8 DEF/6 RES just from class bases, a 50% DEF growth, a 35% RES growth, and a 60% HP growth. Predicted average of 27.05 DEF at 20/20; 24.55 DEF at 20/15. Caps will be 34 DEF and 30+2=32 RES.

Is a Dark Knight the best of ideas? Not really; its kind of slow. But it looks to be one of the sturdiest mages that I can think of.

Dark Blood has better magical attack (same base, 5% better growth) and much better speed (+2 base, +10% growth), but it isn't as tanky to physical damage (assuming neither get doubled; -2 base DEF v.s. Dark Knight, -10% DEF growth vs. Dark Knight).

[Tooru]

26~28 DEF at 20/20 is not good enough. The number can be reached with either fragile character + tanky class or fragile class + tanky character.

The reason why we cannont use Flannel or Paladin!Xander also stop us from using Dark Knight, so Dark Blood may make use of the Def while Dark Knight won't. It doesn't matter which one has higher Def.

[Dark Paladin X]

How practical is a Felicia mothered Midoriko with Stubborness inherited from Felicia and Midoriko reclassed into a Maid after using a Child Seal on Midorko and obtaining Midoriko around chapter 19-20ish? Assume that you fully leveled Felicia and Kaze up and get Midoriko around chapter 19-20ish in the storyline. The reason I asked because Midoriko is far less useful in the Nohr route due to her personal skill and the only Luck% scaling skill that is useful to Midoriko is Stubborness. I picked Felicia because she can access the Hero class to give Stubornness to Midoriko while having relatively high speed and luck growth at the same time. Or do you think there are better mothers for Midoriko other than Felicia?

[astrophys]

So what would be a more appropriate target defensive value, then?

27 DEF is actually better than what your standard 20/20 White Blood would have (26.05; DK has +1 higher base). It will also beat out Dark Blood, obviously (+2 base, +10% DEF growth).

I'm not suggesting that you use the DK as your main tank; someone like Xander would obviously be better for that…. but people were complaining about fragile mages, so I was trying to offer an alternative to the fragile mage problem… of course, as I haven't played the game, perhaps it is that even the DK gets shredded as easily as the other mages due to high enemy attack or whatnot.

Note that all the above figures have been totally ignoring Yato, which can be sitting in your inventory.

In Hoshido, towards the endgame it will give +2 STR and +2 SPD, and when equipped is +2 STR, +3 SPD, -1 DEF, -1 Res. In the last two missions, its +4 STR, +4 SPD, or +4 STR/+5 SPD/-1 Def/-1 Res.

In Nohr, towards endgame it will give +2 Def and +2 RES, and when equipped it is +1 Spd, +1 Def, +1 Res. In the last two missions, its +4 Def and +4 Res when equipped and +1 SPD and +3 Def and +3 Res.

So in Nohr we'd be looking at a tome-using Dark Knight with +2 more defense than the figures I previously indicated, +4 more in the final chapters. It could be even more if you got Horse God, but I wont' assume that.

[Tooru]

If you don't use DK as main tank, you won't use it as any tank.

You do get a mage with better Def, but it is still better to use it like a fragile mage.

Dark Blood is a better fragile mage, as well as a better second tank when we cannot use Flannel or Paladin!Xander.

Edited November 29, 2015 by Tooru

[Wayward Alchemist]

So is it practical to reclass Hinoka into a Lancer or would she be more useful as a ferry?

[Shephen]

So is it practical to reclass Hinoka into a Lancer or would she be more useful as a ferry?

She doesn't need to go Lance Fighter at all in Hoshido. Her stats as a Peg/Falco are pretty great and she won't have much trouble orkoing most enemies. And she has a decent enough base mag and the Falcon Promo bonuses let you use the Shock Stick really well. In IK being a Falco is the only thing she really has going for her there.

[Wayward Alchemist]

I might still take her through Holy Lancer and Basara for Breaking Sky and Lancefaire, which she can make great use of as a Falco anyhow. Also Basara for a level or two might actually help out her Magic a little bit.

[astrophys]

Also Basara for a level or two might actually help out her Magic a little bit.

Not really if you aren't planning to stay as one. Basara and Falcon Warrior have identical (10%) class magic growths. In fairness, Basara does have 1 point higher in base (5 magic vs. 4 magic), but that won't apply once you transfer out of the class.

Time spent in Basara would be for the skills (like Breaking Sky), not for increased magic growth [as it isn't increased; its exactly the same].

[Shephen]

I might still take her through Holy Lancer and Basara for Breaking Sky and Lancefaire, which she can make great use of as a Falco anyhow. Also Basara for a level or two might actually help out her Magic a little bit.

Breaking Sky is fine(not really needed on her since you can't proc skills with the shock stick), but Lancefaire comes way to late to be of use to Hinoka. Keep her as a peg, promote to Falco, then near level -/5 reclass to Basara then reclass back to Falco.

[Duke of Dozel]

I don't see what's wrong with Hinoka becoming a lancer. Statistically speaking she's better as one, and loses her flying beast weakness. You already have Tsubaki who is a Rinka pair up away from being viable. The much better growth spread will help her out more as well if she trains as one then reclasses back. Sure, she doesn't NEED it. But it's a great option that I'm surprised many are disputing.

[astrophys]

If I'm explicitly planning to utilize Matoi in my playthrough, would it be better to save the Spirit Dusts for her and make her the Shocksticker over Hinoka?

She has a slightly worse base, given that she starts with 3 magic at level 10 while Hinoka has 4 magic at level 9, but her Prodigy skill would (I would think) tend to grant her +4 extra damage, which would tend to outweigh the difference in bases.

The reason this is a practicality question is of course Matoi arrives later than Hinoka does, so Hinoka could potentially be Spirit Dust + Shocksticking earlier than Matoi, but Matoi could be better at it (I think) later on.

Basically, it is more practical to save them a bit longer for the more powerful option, or should I make use of their power immediately on a slightly less damaging but more immediate option?

I'm likely to make Hinoka or Oboro Matoi's mother, so either way they'd leave her with very similar magic growths and identical magic mods [both to each other and to Hinoka herself]; Hinoka has a 15% personal growth, Matoi has a default 15% personal growth, and Oboro has a 20% personal growth. So there wouldn't be a huge difference.

[Shephen]

Hinoka doesn't even benefit that much from Lancer. She already has good bulk as a Peg/Falco and she has enough speed where she can use Steel Naginata forges without much penalty really. She has the Shock Stick forge so she can even get through the Generals that give people problems. So her offense is never an issue. Her only real problem that Lancer could help with is her low base hp, but she is the best candidate for the chapter 7 Seraph Robe unless Kamui got really screwed over in HP. Going lancer doesn't really change anything for her. She still kills everything, just now she has less move and falls behind the other mounts like Crimson, Baki, Silas so there is less stuff for her to kill.

[avengerfive]

Does Hinoka need a pair up partner? I was thinking Great Knight Silas could be good, but then you don't get to use Silas.

[Wayward Alchemist]

Hinoka doesn't really need to Pair Up because she seems to own all the things that aren't owned by MU, Ryoma, and Takumi, but if you Reclass Hinata into a Shura or a Blacksmith he could give her defense and that's all she really wants. Hell you could even just catch a generic General or GK to slap on her because she really doesn't need much.

Edited November 30, 2015 by JothTheConqueror