Smash Brothers "Representation" Data

[Jedi]

This Started as a Smash 4 Data thread, it has been turned into a general one.

Smash 4 Data is in this Post

Smash 64

Smash Bros Melee

Smash Bros Brawl

Smash 4 Series (With a playable character) Content, including Trophies, Music, etc

No reason other than I'm absolutely bored, I always think of people talking about representation in Smash, so I've decided to catalog what things exactly have representation or not.

I mean this in terms of things that effect the game, such as stages, characters, items and Assist Trophies perhaps, Pokemon gets a huge boost from Pokeballs as is, but I feel like counting it as a single thing, or else it would be a no contest. Stages will also be both the 3DS and Wii U set totals.

Music and Trophies may come later, but holy crap I am not doing that right now. Bold Green Numbers mean the highest count at a quick glance. My numbers may be slightly off and if they are I apologize.

Characters Per Franchise

Super Mario Bros - 7

Yoshi - 1

Donkey Kong - 2

The Legend of Zelda - 5

Metroid - 2

Kirby - 3

Starfox - 2

Pokemon - 6

F-Zero - 1

Mother - 2

Fire Emblem - 6

Game & Watch - 1

Kid Icarus - 3

Warioland/Warioware - 1

Pikmin - 1

ROBOT - 1

Animal Crossing - 1

Punch Out! - 1

Wii Fit - 1

Xenoblade Chronicles - 1

Duck Hunt - 1

Sonic The Hedgehog - 1

Megaman - 1

Pac-Man - 1

Street Fighter - 1

Final Fantasy - 1

Bayonetta - 1

Smash Originals (Mii Fighters) - 3

Stages Both Wii U and 3DS

Super Mario Bros - 13

Yoshi - 3

Donkey Kong - 4

The Legend of Zelda - 7

Metroid - 3

Kirby - 4

Starfox - 3

Pokemon - 4

F-Zero - 2

Mother - 2

Fire Emblem - 3

Game & Watch - 2

Kid Icarus - 3

Warioland/Warioware - 2

Pikmin - 2

Animal Crossing - 3

Punch Out! - 1

Wii Fit - 1

Xenoblade Chronicles - 1

Duck Hunt - 1

Sonic The Hedgehog - 2

Megaman - 1

Pac-Man - 2

Street Fighter - 1

Final Fantasy - 1

Bayonetta - 1

Wrecking Crew - 1

Pilotwings - 1

Wii Sports - 1

Miiverse - 1

Balloon Fight - 1

Nintendogs - 1

Find Mii - 1

Tomodachi Life - 1

Smash Originals - 2

Items - This is counting character created items

Super Mario Bros - 22

Donkey Kong - 5

The Legend of Zelda - 10

Metroid - 1

Kirby - 5

Starfox - 1

Pokemon - 3. If counting all summoned Pokemon in this category as well, 43* (If counted has the highest)

Mother - 2

Fire Emblem - 2

Kid Icarus - 5

Warioland/Warioware - 1

Pikmin - 1

ROBOT - 1

Animal Crossing - 3

Megaman - 1

Pac-Man/Namco - 3

Clu Clu Land - 1

Pilotwings - 1

Panel de pon - 1

Steel Diver - 1

Smash Originals - 22

Assist Trophies

Super Mario Bros - 4

The Legend of Zelda - 4

Metroid - 3

Kirby - 2

Starfox - 1

F-Zero - 1

Mother - 2

Fire Emblem - 1

Kid Icarus - 2

Warioland/Warioware - 2

Animal Crossing - 1

Xenoblade Chronicles - 1

Sonic The Hedgehog - 1

Megaman - 1

Pac-Man - 1

Brain Age - 1

Color Tv-Game - 1

Devil World - 1

Dillon's Rolling Western - 1

Kaeru no Tame ni Kane wa Naru/The Frog For Whom the Bell Tolls - 1

Nintendo Wars - 1

Nintendogs - 1

Sheriff - 1

SImCity - 1

Sin & Punishment - 1

Starfy - 1

The Mysterious Murasame Castle - 1

Totals for now

Super Mario Bros - 46

Yoshi - 4

Donkey Kong - 11

The Legend of Zelda - 26

Metroid - 9

Kirby - 14

Starfox - 7

Pokemon - 13, but if counting all Pokeball Pokemon, 53* (If counted has the highest)

F-Zero - 4

Mother - 8

Fire Emblem - 12

Game & Watch - 3

Kid Icarus - 13

Warioland/Warioware - 6

Pikmin - 4

ROBOT - 2

Animal Crossing - 8

Punch Out! - 2

Wii Fit - 2

Xenoblade Chronicles - 3

Duck Hunt - 2

Sonic The Hedgehog - 4

Megaman - 4

Pac-Man/Namco - 7

Street Fighter - 2
Final Fantasy - 2
Bayonetta - 2

Wrecking Crew - 1
Pilotwings - 2
Wii Sports - 1
Miiverse - 1
Balloon Fight - 1
Nintendogs - 1
Find Mii - 1
Tomodachi Life - 1

Brain Age - 1
Color Tv-Game - 1
Devil World - 1
Dillon's Rolling Western - 1
Kaeru no Tame ni Kane wa Naru/The Frog For Whom the Bell Tolls - 1
Nintendo Wars - 1
Nintendogs - 2
Sheriff - 1
SImCity - 1
Sin & Punishment - 1
Starfy - 1
The Mysterious Murasame Castle - 1

Panel de pon - 1
Steel Diver - 1

Chu Chu Land - 1

Smash Originals - 27

Had to do a minor edit because I realized I forgot to count Robin's tome and Levin Sword as items, i'll probably edit in Mii costumes later as well.

Edit #2 somehow forgot Zelda on the totals, which is now fixed.

Edited December 30, 2015 by Jedi

[jacob (sol)]

But I thought that Fire Emblem was soooo overrepped.

All joking aside, these numbers are pretty cool.

I think that Gyromite, Wii Fit, and Xenoblade got completely screwed though compared to everything else.

Gyromite has one song on the Wii U version and R.O.B. That's literally everything it has. Not even a Professor Hector or Blocks trophy? Why can't we erase that Mario Maker stage for a NES Remix credited toward Gyromite or something. Why couldn't Duck Hunt have come with Gyromite/Stack-Up on the 3DS version instead of Wrecking Crew Retro Medley?

Wii Fit has a ton of trophies, but no stages or music in the 3DS version. Tomodachi Life only has a vague connection at best.

Xenoblade has one assist, one remix, and one stage. I'm totally biased though. Gaur Plain is the only stage across both versions? What about all the other amazing locals? It's not even fair. I do think that Riki is a cool assist though, but I want 3DS Gaur Plain and Wii U Eryth Sea. Fighting Metal Face on Eryth Sea wouldn't even feel contrived.

As for the other new series who have one stage, Duck Hunt and Punch Out both have perfect stages. Bayonetta, Street Fighter, and Final Fantasy are all DLC. That leaves Sonic which doesn't make sense and Mega Man who has the most iconic location.

[Fire Emblem Fan]

See? FE is not over-represented! Lots of characters, sure. But everything else?

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

Numbers don't take account of the quality of said representation though.

Bayonetta has what, 1 character and 1 stage? Yet it's incredibly well made and faithful to the source material.

Same goes to Xenoblade, and Final Fantasy VII.

Well, Xenoblade and Bayo' stages are copypasted, but the work put into Bayo and Shulk is noticeable: both are well done.

Then there's Kid Icarus, that not only got a whole lot of new content from Uprising, but all of it is faithful and well done; in fact, Pit got his whole moveset redone due to Uprising, and the Wii U stage has been made from scratch (no assets taken from other games), Dark Pit has his own themesong, Palutena has all different custom specials, etc.

I don't want to say FE got the same good treatment, even if there are too many (IMO) FE characters in the roster, because Ike spouts idiotic things ("I fight for my friends"? I know it's a legend now but please), Lucina is rude and disrespectful (opposite of her character), Marth still has a narcissistic edge, and Corrin does thing they would never do in-game (thank goodness, but for fuck's sake). 2 of 3 stages are completely made up: I really dislike when instead of taking things from the source material they give us a general idea of a thing (in this case, Coliseum and Castle Siege).

Let's talk about other franchises with bigger numbers:

Zelda: It might have a lot of content, but all of its stages are copy pasted from other Smash games or Zelda games, a character who would perfectly have whole new moveset still has Captain Falcon's, and they lazily reused the TP designs, instead of using the charming Skyward Sword ones or giving us interesting alts, probably because they were built from their Brawl versions. If Robin can have both genders, why can't Zelda have her cute Skyward Sword outfit?

Link's final smash is also another sign of laziness: why couldn't Link get a new final smash, something that actually exist in the Zelda series?

The items are mostly fluff and I would never give them the same weight as stages and characters.

Donkey Kong: despite this being a really famous Nintendo franchise, it's still stuck at 2 characters, DK still has a bongo final smash (in case you guys don't know, Donkey Konga is not liked among DK fans), all of the stages are shameless copypasta.

Kirby: got a new stage built from scratch, Kirby got a new Final Smash, pretty good overall for having its most important characters all in. However, most of the Kirby content comes from Kirby games made by Sakurai. Hmmmmmmmmmmm..............................

I'm not taking smaller numbers, Mario and Pokèmon in consideration because then I'd have too much to write about... especially about Metroid.

But honestly...?

I'd love to see a world where Kid Icarus as a franchise is more famous and important to Nintendo than Donkey Kong, Metroid, Wario, Animal Crossing and friggin' ZELDA.

Representation in Smash 4 is unequal and you know it. There is no need to say "B-but it's his game!" "B-but that's not true!", because we all know that Kid Icarus Uprising doesn't get jack shit recognition outside of Smash. Show me where Pit is around Nintendo promotional images and maybe we can talk.

I'm not even sure if Sakurai wants to work on a Nintendo game at this point, he just seems to put in what he likes and throw bones at franchises that actually deserve more. Just look at how Zelda is treaten: it's one of Nintendo's best selling franchises, but for some reason it got shafted so badly. Or look at how DK doesn't have a third character, friggin' DK, if that's not a Nintendo legend I don't know what that is.

Smash 4 is a fun game, but IMO it took too many (sadly needed) shortcomings for my taste, and we have come to a point where Smash is not about Nintendo anymore, but simply about Smash. It's ok for most people, but not for me: I'm not a competitive smasher, and Smash 4 is still not as fun as Melee or 64 for me; what drew me in was Nintendo's legacy, and Smash 4 does not do a very good job at representing and respecting it like a true nerdy game (such as Sonic & All Stars Racing Transformed) would. Therefore, I can't really say I'm satisfied with it.

I'd like to write more but I don't have the time.

Children's videogames!

awuhgiuagfiugaiufgiugvibsvfhbsdvihvdsvhg

/rant

[jacob (sol)]

yeah no

uprising is one of the best games I've ever played and it's earned it's honestly paltry content ten times over.

You have:

2 characters and one clone who has no real difference except for a victory theme. Are you arguing Rosalina and Meta Knight bias?

A bunch of ripped idol models and Smash Run enemies. Considering the Wii U version has almost no Ki trophies whatsoever, it's still fine.

Some items and assists. Two whole assists. That's not that much.

Some ripped songs and some remixes.

like seriously

nothing grinds my gears like pulling out the "kid Icarus bias" card

lol at bringing up Kirby because bandana Dee isn't even in like he should be

edit: Smash 64 and Melee have characters from your childhood. My life has been shaped by Awakening, Xenoblade, and Uprising. Probably Epic Yarn too. I for one am estatic that currently relevant series that matter to me have a lot of content. They may not have the sales, but I'm happy the game caters to me. I couldn't care less about the 90s, and considering that the only newcomer from the 90s is Cloud, I think Sakurai agrees with me.

Edited December 21, 2015 by Freyjadour

[Zera]

Sin & Punishment - 1

This makes me sad. I am sad. And it's just an assist trophy from Brawl. Whyyyyyyyyyy

[Jedi]

Due to request, I'm going to be doing Smash 64, Melee and Brawl as well. Editing 4 later, and I am a little dismayed that this has gotten nothing, but almost negative vibes :(

Smash 64

Characters Per Franchise

Super Mario Bros - 2

Yoshi - 1

Donkey Kong - 1

The Legend of Zelda - 1

Metroid - 1

Kirby - 1

Starfox - 1

Pokemon - 2

F-Zero - 1

Mother - 1

Stages playable in multiplayer

Super Mario Bros - 2

Yoshi - 1

Donkey Kong - 1

The Legend of Zelda - 1

Metroid - 1

Kirby - 1

Starfox - 1

Pokemon - 1

Items - Including Character Created Items (Aka Link lol)

Super Mario Bros - 5

Donkey Kong - 1

The Legend of Zelda - 2

Kirby - 2

Pokemon - 1 - Although counting all summoned Pokemon this totals at 14*

Smash Originals - 10

Totals

Super Mario Bros - 9

Yoshi - 2

Donkey Kong - 3

The Legend of Zelda - 4

Metroid - 2

Kirby - 4

Starfox - 2

Pokemon - 4 - Counting all summoned Pokemon this totals at 17*

F-Zero - 1

Mother - 1

Smash Originals - 10

Edited December 22, 2015 by Jedi

[jacob (sol)]

On the topic of Smash 64, I wonder why Mushroom Kingdom was prioritized over Onett or Mute City. I know Ness and Captain Falcon were only added because they didn't have time for Marth, but it would have been cool to see a stage.

Smash 64 was as a whole pretty cool.

[Jedi]

Super Smash Brothers Melee

Characters Per Franchise

Super Mario Bros - 5

Yoshi - 1

Donkey Kong - 1

The Legend of Zelda - 5

Metroid - 1

Kirby - 1

Starfox - 2

Pokemon - 4

F-Zero - 1

Mother - 1

Fire Emblem - 2

Game & Watch - 1

Ice Climber - 1

Stages

Super Mario Bros - 4

Yoshi - 3

Donkey Kong - 3

The Legend of Zelda - 2

Metroid - 2

Kirby - 3

Starfox - 2

Pokemon - 2

F-Zero - 2

Mother - 2

Game & Watch - 1

Ice Climber - 1

Smash Originals - 2

Items - Including Character created items

Super Mario Bros - 11

Donkey Kong - 3

The Legend of Zelda - 4

Metroid - 1

Kirby - 5

Pokemon - 2 - if you count all summoned Pokemon 31*

Mother - 1

Nintendo Accessories - 1

Panel de Pon - 1

Perfect Dark - 1

Balloon Fight - 1

Smash Originals - 12

Adventure Mode Unique Themed Areas

Super Mario Bros - 1

The Legend of Zelda - 1

Metroid - 1

F-Zero - 1

Ice Climber - 1

Totals

Super Mario Bros - 21

Yoshi - 4

Donkey Kong - 7

The Legend of Zelda - 12

Metroid - 5

Kirby - 9

Starfox - 4

Pokemon - 8 - If you count all summoned Pokemon 39*

F-Zero - 4

Mother - 3

Fire Emblem - 2

Game & Watch - 2

Ice Climber - 3

Nintendo Accessories - 1

Panel de Pon - 1

Perfect Dark - 1

Balloon Fight - 1

Smash Originals - 14

Edited December 22, 2015 by Jedi

[jacob (sol)]

Fire Emblem having no stages was weird to say the least. Especially since Flat Zone could have been moved to below Icicle Mountain and Akaneia could be up by Corneria and then have Random be by Venom.

[Elieson]

I still don't get why ROB and G&W have both been in multiple games, and are continuously in multiple games, when they added Gimmick!Pichu to one and pulled him out.

What item was PerfectDark inspiring in melee?

[Jotaro Kujo]

Keep up the good work, Jedi. I've been wondering about these totals for a while now but I've been too lazy to count them so thanks for fighting the good fight.

It's been so long since then, seeing how small the rosters were back then feels surreal hah!

[jacob (sol)]

I still don't get why ROB and G&W have both been in multiple games, and are continuously in multiple games, when they added Gimmick!Pichu to one and pulled him out.

What item was PerfectDark inspiring in melee?

currently being triggered

nobody touches my baby rob

also I love Pichu but alas

[Elieson]

Hey man, ROB's one of my top characters. I just don't get why he's still included is all, mang

[Jedi]

Super Smash Brothers Brawl

This will include Subspace bosses as they are in original areas and not in already themed stages like Smash 4 and little bonuses, this will not count Master and Crazy Hand

Melee post was edited to include unique areas in Adventure mode themed on certain franchises.

Characters Per Franchise

Super Mario Bros - 4

Yoshi - 1

Donkey Kong - 2

The Legend of Zelda - 5

Metroid - 2

Kirby - 3

Starfox - 3

Pokemon - 6

F-Zero - 1

Mother - 2

Fire Emblem - 2

Game & Watch - 1

Ice Climber - 1

Kid Icarus - 1

Warioland/Warioware - 1

Pikmin - 1

ROBOT - 1

Metal Gear - 1

Sonic The Hedgehog - 1

Stages

Super Mario Bros - 6

Yoshi - 2

Donkey Kong - 3

The Legend of Zelda - 3

Metroid - 3

Kirby - 2

Starfox - 2

Pokemon - 3

F-Zero - 2

Mother - 2

Fire Emblem - 1

Game & Watch - 1

Kid Icarus - 1

Warioland/Warioware - 1

Pikmin - 1

Animal Crossing - 1

Metal Gear - 1

Sonic The Hedgehog - 1

DS System - 1

Electroplankton - 1

Smash Originals - 2

Items - Including Character Created Ones

Super Mario Bros - 15

Donkey Kong - 5

The Legend of Zelda - 5

Metroid - 2

Kirby - 5

Starfox - 1

Pokemon - 3 - Including Summoned Pokemon 32*

Mother - 2

Warioland/Warioware - 2

ROBOT - 1

Animal Crossing - 1

Metal Gear - 2

Clu Clu Land - 1

Nintendo Accessories - 1

Panel de Pon - 1

Smash Originals - 28

Assist Trophies

Super Mario Bros - 3

The Legend of Zelda - 1

Metroid - 1

Kirby - 1

Starfox - 1

F-Zero - 1

Mother - 1

Fire Emblem - 1

Warioland/Warioware - 1

Animal Crossing - 1

Punch Out! - 1

Metal Gear - 1

Sonic The Hedgehog - 1

Custom Robo - 1

Devil World - 1

Drill Dozer - 1

Excite - 1

Golden Sun - 1

Jam with the Band - 1

Kururin - 1

Nintendo Wars - 1

Nintendogs - 1

SimCity - 1

Sin & Punishment - 1

Starfy - 1

Subspace Bosses/Misc

Super Mario Bros - 1, and 2 for having themed enemies

Donkey Kong - 1 DKC styled Barrel adventures

Metroid - 2

Kirby - 1 for having the Halberd be a location

Pokemon - 1, 2 for having Red catch Ivysaur and Charizard like in the games

Mother - 1

Kid Icarus - 1 for having Skyworld

ROBOT - 1 for having themed ROB enemies

Smash Originals - 3

Totals

Super Mario Bros - 30

Yoshi - 3

Donkey Kong - 11

The Legend of Zelda - 14

Metroid - 10

Kirby - 12

Starfox - 7

Pokemon - 14 - If counting all summoned Pokemon 43*

F-Zero - 4

Mother - 8

Fire Emblem - 4

Game & Watch - 2

Ice Climber - 2

Kid Icarus - 3

Warioland/Warioware - 5

Pikmin - 2

Animal Crossing - 3

Punch Out! - 1

ROBOT - 3

Metal Gear - 5

Sonic the Hedgehog - 3

DS System - 1

Electroplankton - 1

Clu Clu Land - 1
Nintendo Accessories - 1
Panel de Pon - 1

Custom Robo - 1
Devil World - 1
Drill Dozer - 1
Excite - 1
Golden Sun - 1
Jam with the Band - 1
Kururin - 1
Nintendo Wars - 1
Nintendogs - 1
SimCity - 1
Sin & Punishment - 1
Starfy - 1

Smash Originals - 33

Edited December 22, 2015 by Jedi

[Jedi]

What item was PerfectDark inspiring in melee?

Late reply somewhat, but the Stealth Device is listed as a Perfect Dark item. Even in game.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Jedi

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

yeah no

uprising is one of the best games I've ever played and it's earned it's honestly paltry content ten times over.

That's like, your opinion. I know it's a quality game, it has the reputation of being one (I never played it), but let's also consider it is pretty much niche.

I would expect Kid Icarus, as a series, to have as much content as MOTHER, because they are in similar situations (well, KI is certainly less dead than MOTHER), because they have a loyal fanbase, 3 titles up its sleeve, but are less popular than big names such as Zelda, Mario, DK, Kirby, etc.

Except that, for being what it is (niche), it has as much content as Zelda. Why? Because Sakurai is biased.

lol at bringing up Kirby because bandana Dee isn't even in like he should be

He shouldn't, because he's a mook with a bandana and a spear. At this point, let's also have Goombario in Smash. I'm pretty sure there are way better choices for a 4th Kirby character. But even then, what are the chances of Bandana Dee getting in? He doesn't come from a Kirby game made by Sakurai.

I brought Kirby into my post BECAUSE it is a big name franchise with a lot of representation. It would be unfair to not talk about it if I talk about Zelda, FE, etc, because all of those brought up franchises all have similar numbers.

nothing grinds my gears like pulling out the "kid Icarus bias" card

Well, it's not "Kid Icarus bias", it's "Sakurai bias". Why is Kirby content most, if not all, from HIS Kirby games?

Great Cave Offensive makes me happy but I don't want to pretend it was not a biased choice.

I love Kid Icarus but I'm sad the older games did not get anything, even if they make up two thirds of the franchise. Now I'm pretty sure you'll say they're not as beautiful, as original, as etc, as Uprising, but they still exist.

Even if it grinds your gears, I won't stop pulling it because it's pretty obvious these bias exist. And I'm not angry these bias exist, I don't lose my sleep over them, I'm just bummed.

edit: Smash 64 and Melee have characters from your childhood. My life has been shaped by Awakening, Xenoblade, and Uprising. Probably Epic Yarn too. I for one am estatic that currently relevant series that matter to me have a lot of content. They may not have the sales, but I'm happy the game caters to me. I couldn't care less about the 90s, and considering that the only newcomer from the 90s is Cloud, I think Sakurai agrees with me.

Holy moly, that's not what I said, where did you get that I'm a person who only wants 90s content in Smash? If that were the case I'd want all the Zelda characters to be OOT flavored, I'd want in a new Sonic rep., I'd want everyone to say "Shagadelic!" "Tubular!" and I'd want want a Backstreet Boys rep.

I'm not being 100% serious but you get the idea.

Want to know what shaped my life as a gamer? The early 2000s. And guess what are my dream characters for Smash? A new F-Zero rep, a third MOTHER character, Takamaru, Elma, a new DK rep (preferably Dixie Kong), Wonder Red, Ridley, that's it. Wow so many 90s characters! Especially Elma and Wonder Red, eh?

However, I know that a good slice of these are impossible, therefore I will not cry or advocate for them all the time because they were not included.

But I still do not like that you put words into my mouth and made assumptions. You do this a lot, even with other forum users.

Also, bolded: nice jab at anyone who wanted older characters in. Nice jab at anyone who wanted Zelda or Star Fox characters in (series that do matter a lot since both have upcoming, new games). And where is Kid Icarus relevant? Where does it matter? I don't see much Kid Icarus nowdays outside of Smash.

My point is simple: as long as Sakurai worked on something, new, well made content from that game/series is bound to show up, and more popular/important series will still get the shaft.

If Sakurai made a Metroid game, we'd have a character from that game, Samus and/or Zero Suit would get new moves based on that game, and we'd have much more Metroid items. I could say this for any franchise and it'd be true.

I honestly can't see how people do not see it. Am I imagining things? I don't think so, because I see many others say the same thing as me, and some of them are not even salty fanboys.

I'm not saying Sakurai is the devil, I'm not sending him death threats, I'm just saying he's obviously biased, and I'm not sure if having these bias is a good thing for the director of the most important Nintendo crossover game. Zelda hasn't gotten a new character since Melee (Toon Link is pretty much Young Link), Ganny is still a Falcon clone while Pit got completely rehashed, DK is still all about jungles and still doesn't have a third rep, why isn't there another Wario character, why don't we have Wolf again, etc etc. Now I will turn into a broken record.

I know making Smash Bros is very hard, and I can see why he'd add so much stuff from his own work (easier to make, more fun to make, etc), and I understand Sakurai gets a lot of pressure for creating Smash Bros, the stress, I know you can't please everyone, etc, but I still have the right to criticize his decisions and not be 100% satisfied with his product.

It's alright to have preferences, as seen with the representation in Melee and Brawl, but in Smash 4... I'm sorry, I think he overdid it, this time.

[Jedi]

I'm not saying Sakurai is the devil, I'm not sending him death threats, I'm just saying he's obviously biased, and I'm not sure if having these bias is a good thing for the director of the most important Nintendo crossover game. Zelda hasn't gotten a new character since Melee (Toon Link is pretty much Young Link), Ganny is still a Falcon clone while Pit got completely rehashed, DK is still all about jungles and still doesn't have a third rep, why isn't there another Wario character, why don't we have Wolf again, etc etc. Now I will turn into a broken record.

And then there are people like me who is sick of Nintendo's constant own bias to Zelda like we've gotten what 5 games in the past 2 years? I personally think Zelda is set apart from Zelda needing a revamped moveset, possibly Dorf too, but he's no longer the Falcon Clone he was, because he evolved into his own type of bare knuckle brawler with his own style of moves and such. Certainly some do still resemble Falcon, but he isn't a Clone anymore. I also think the TP designs are much better than the SS designs, but then again I dislike Skyward Sword with a passion, so I guess thats just a bit of anti-bias there. I just tend to disagree with the whole "Zelda got snubbed" POV in general, simple opinion is all though, I know it isn't a popular thought process, and i'm willing to admit that. Something people also have to realize is as bizarre as it is, Ganondorf is Sakurai's favorite character to play as in the games, so that's probably why he hasn't changed more. It won't change people being annoyed, but maybe it could be a little more understanding? I dno.

The only Clones in Smash are are pretty much Dark Pit and Lucina, but even they have their own differences.

Who would you add? If I could ask, towards Zelda. I liked what Koei did with alot of the characters in Hyrule Warriors, but would they make smash material for instance? Not to mention Sakurai has a much different thought process than most of us do for how these characters end up working.

DK I do see Dixie and K.Rool being good choices, but alas they weren't in the wings, maybe next time.

I however understand your frustration, I have my own with some choices. More on the Mario and Pokemon side of things than anything else, I honestly feel the roster is pretty solid all things considered, its hard to even count Dark Pit, Lucina and Doc in with "Oh it could have been someone else" considering they were bonus costumes that were given more attention so they decided to make them characters for the people who liked those characters.

Is Sakurai biased for Kid Icarus? yes, but he could have done it much much worse, we could have just as easily gotten Hades for a fighter the same day we got Corrin. Personally I think its more Mario and Pokemon that are the main issues here despite their popularity. (Mario more so than Pokemon).

Fire Emblem is in an odd spot, it's clear Sakurai loves it and wants it to do better, but also i'm going to address your "If Sakurai did a Metroid game he'd add more to it", that would depend on if the Japanese even gave a shit about it. They typically don't with Metroid so I honestly think its fortunate we have what we do.

I respect your thought process on the matter, I just give you mine in exchange. I really enjoy Smash 4 as a whole though, so that might be where we differ, because you don't have as much fun with it as you do the older titles, and thats fine. Everyone has preferences.

And thats what this boils down to as well, no matter what Sakurai does, there is going to be a segment of people who complain about it.

Edited December 22, 2015 by Jedi

[CrimeanRoyalKnight]

Oh, I see, at this point I understand why Ganondorf has the same moveset.

Personally, I would've put in either Impa, Groose or Girahim, but both all of them are deemed not important enough by many people. In fact, I was hyped for a possible Girahim appearence until he was made into an assist, and I voted Groose for the ballot (plz don't pick on me guys wahh, I also voted Bayonetta on another computer, and K.Rool on another one, plz spare me). Pretty much all the Zelda characters people would've liked to see got made into assists.

I guess that since now there is Hyrule Warriors, the need for Zelda representation in Smash doesn't feel as strong as before, but it's still weird.

On one side I also guess people hate Skyward Sword too much for it to get repped in Smash... :(

On the "If Sakurai did XYZ" thought: I can see where you're coming from. But I think my thought still holds. With Metroid, it would be much less exaggerated than Kid Icarus since KI has fans in Japan, but it would still get more care than it gets now. Metroid is not a popular franchise in Japan, but it is loved very hard overseas, and Sakurai does listen to overseas fans (hence why we have Little Mac, and why many Japanese fans think the opposite of what with think, basically that a lot of his choices are made for western fans), so I can see him give more attention to Metroid if he worked on the series.

On Mario and Pokèmon rep: Yeah, I too am not too keen on how these two franchises get so much attention, but it's understandable because they are so popular. Mario is why the series is called Super Smash Brothers, he is Nintendo's mascot; plus Nintendo wants to give more attention to Rosalina and the Koopalings.

Pokèmon is a super stellar seller and even if I'm not interested into it as much as I was a few years ago, I can see why people love it. Plus I love how Sakurai listened to fans and brought back MewTwo, and I'm not a fan of MewTwo.

Therefore yeah, I'm not super happy these two always get a lot of new content, but in the end you can't question it due to their popularity, and in Mario's case, importance and closeness to Nintendo.

The clones: Yeah, I can't blame the clones for anything. I think I prefer Dark Pit over Pit, if I must say, hahaahah.

The way you put it ("It could've been worse") is a good way of thinking, it does put my heart at peace more than anything else, especially since of Sakurai's bias.

Smash 4 is still a fun game and its roster is part of what makes me prefer it over Brawl (the other part being better physics), but I still can't help but have the gripes I have listed. Some of them couldn't even be avoided (like the abdundance of reused assets; they still had to make two versions of the games), and well, some franchises do need better representation.

Do you think people would be happy and shut up if we got Ridley, K.Rool and/or Dixie, if we got all removed characters back and we got a new Zelda rep., etc?

I'm mentioning only Nintendo owned characters since those are the ones I see get asked the most around Nintendo circles (and I think Smash should cater mostly to Nintendo fans).

Sakurai probably thinks they wouldn't, and I think so too, so I can see why he puts in who he wants, and gives more care to the characters and series he likes, but it's still sad to see Nintendo series getting shafted in a game all about Nintendo.

On a sorta related note, I'd love to know why Sakurai put Corrin into the game. I guess it mostly is for Fates publicity in the west, plus Fates is popular in Japan, but man, does it feel nasty when you rooted for a third DK rep.

[Jedi]

Sorry if I came off a bit strongly with Skyward Sword there, I think its good, I just don't enjoy it that much personally ^^;. I may have also came off a bit strongly with what I said about Zelda stuff in general whoops.

I'd have personally put in Tetra if I were asked to put in a new Zelda character, or someone off the wall like a Zora (Ruto) or something, but I'm not Mr. Sakurai! People probably are glad about that! I see your struggles for Girahim, I've seen tons of support for him and I really do feel for you, I felt the same way when Isaac was an Assist in Brawl. My vote was for Zero from Megaman X as a side note! One of my favorites.

Also yeah, maybe I was a little too big on the whole Japan isn't big on Metroid train, I'd play a Metroid game made by Sakurai lol, I love pretty much everything he's made.

I guess it is a bit silly for me to be like MARIO AND POKEMON *shakes fist* haha, I enjoy both franchises still I just feel theres a bit much, even just stages for Mario I think should have been trimmed a little.

I like Dark Pit and Pit both, but during my romps of Kid Icarus Uprising's Online I somehow always ended up on the Dark half, so I ended up playing Dark Pit more than Pit in multiplayer haha. Plus I think he's amusing, I love that game, I will admit it got a bit too much love, but I enjoy it also. Maybe thats a bit selfish of me ^^;.

And you're right, in the end it should cater to Nintendo fans first and foremost, but I got so giddy in Brawl when I learned one of my favorite characters (Sonic) was joining and I had similar reactions to Megaman, Ryu, and Cloud. Bayo somewhat since I like her games too. Pac-Man more for legacy than anything.

Sakurai... I feel for the guy, because he must get so much hate/love mail, from all the people, it must be wearing, he's already afraid Corrin may have been "overdoing it" for FE for instance.

Yeah, I'm not sure why we got FE character number 6, instead of DK character number 3, I mean I love FE and I like how Corrin looks in smash, but the choice baffles me even despite that.

[Elieson]

Late reply somewhat, but the Stealth Device is listed as a Perfect Dark item. Even in game.

As if you expect me and half of the planet to read trophy descriptions

but srsly thx for the clarification

[Zera]

For the record, there's so much Kid Icarus stuff in Smash 4 because it was easy to import the assets, due to both games being made for the same hardware. And Palutena was the most requested character from Japan during developement.

[Jedi]

For the record, there's so much Kid Icarus stuff in Smash 4 because it was easy to import the assets, due to both games being made for the same hardware. And Palutena was the most requested character from Japan during developement.

You sure about this? I've heard that it was Mewtwo and Megaman.

[Zera]

I'm pretty sure that's what I heard, but I don't remember where.

[Jedi]

If you do find the notes, I'd like to see them, for curiosity sake. Because I didn't hear much want for Palutena before her reveal, like some people lowkey wanted her in, but I didn't hear many vocal people for her.