Min/Maxing Help

[TheSilentChloey]

I currently have a problem for my normal F!Robin run through Awakening. I am debating on getting non healers to max out to level 20 or second/master seal them while they are at level 10. I have several units that are near or past the level 10 threshold and are able to second/master seal. I am pretty sure that I will be second sealing Chrom and Robin at level 10 (if my luck with Anna holds!) or at the very least master sealing Chrom. Is it better to go to level 20 or second sealing/master sealing at level 10?

~TSC

[Cquel]

You should use a second seal at lvl 10 (lvl 15 for special classes) and a master seal at lvl 20. The main reason is because you use second seals to get more skills and by lvl 10 you have all the skills for that base class. However when you use a master seal you will want to have as much stats as possible while the exp per lvl is still low so most people wait till lvl 20 to promote. If you start hitting stat caps then its OK to promote early.

[TheSilentChloey]

I really don't know what to do. Skill everyone up or gain strength? It is a tough call to make D: I usually use the second seal method when I'm doing serious grinding and getting skills. However there is no reliable second seals until after chapter 16 D: I could master seal said units, but then I'm worried that it would be a waste of the seals and added stats D:

[Cquel]

If you have Olivia married you can do Inigo paralogue to get second seals at chapter 14. I know its only two chapters earlier but i find that it helps. As far as using second seals it really depends on what skill you want to pass down to your kids. I normally find myself only using second seals when a character is still in its base class when they can transform into Pegasus knight, so that they can get galeforce, or when the skill i want them pass on isn't in their current class tree. As far as Robin and Chrom are concerned i would second seal FRobin to Pegasus and promote Chrom to Great Lord so that he can learn Aether.

To be honest though it is not going to hurt you if you second seal a base class past lvl 10. In all of my hard runs i normally had some chars that would be around 12-15 before i was able to get them a second seal. Just plan out what skills you want and then once you get the second seals then you can worry about grinding, if you want to do that.

[Czar_Yoshi]

It varies on a case-by-case basis. Prioritize quick reclassing and promoting when Seals are in heavy supply and you run a risk of capping your non-promoted stats, wait it out if Seals are rare of your stats are low (you haven't had a base reclass).

[TheSilentChloey]

If you have Olivia married you can do Inigo paralogue to get second seals at chapter 14. I know its only two chapters earlier but i find that it helps. As far as using second seals it really depends on what skill you want to pass down to your kids. I normally find myself only using second seals when a character is still in its base class when they can transform into Pegasus knight, so that they can get galeforce, or when the skill i want them pass on isn't in their current class tree. As far as Robin and Chrom are concerned i would second seal FRobin to Pegasus and promote Chrom to Great Lord so that he can learn Aether.

To be honest though it is not going to hurt you if you second seal a base class past lvl 10. In all of my hard runs i normally had some chars that would be around 12-15 before i was able to get them a second seal. Just plan out what skills you want and then once you get the second seals then you can worry about grinding, if you want to do that.

I don't do Olivia x MU I tend to do Olivia x Libra/Chrom, but I suppose it would be the same. Inigo needs Galeforce from his mother and I tend to have used second seals on Robin for more choice skills to help me out in the game.

It varies on a case-by-case basis. Prioritize quick reclassing and promoting when Seals are in heavy supply and you run a risk of capping your non-promoted stats, wait it out if Seals are rare of your stats are low (you haven't had a base reclass).

The units I have that are second/master seal ready are Lon'qu, Sumia, Miriel, Virion and Stahl. Any suggestions for them?

[Czar_Yoshi]

Not Robin x Olivia, Olivia x anyone- you just need to unlock Inigo's Paralogue and beat it to gain access to a Second Seal shop (well before the one in Cht.16). You can also get them from Nah and Severa's Paralogues; Severa's is the easiest if you're concerned about difficulty.

I assume all five of those are still in their first classes? You're probably best off promoting all of them at 20, with the possible exception of Miriel who could go to Troubadour if you really want another healer (or to be able to raise her without taking up combat exp).

[TheSilentChloey]

Not Robin x Olivia, Olivia x anyone- you just need to unlock Inigo's Paralogue and beat it to gain access to a Second Seal shop (well before the one in Cht.16). You can also get them from Nah and Severa's Paralogues; Severa's is the easiest if you're concerned about difficulty.

I assume all five of those are still in their first classes? You're probably best off promoting all of them at 20, with the possible exception of Miriel who could go to Troubadour if you really want another healer (or to be able to raise her without taking up combat exp).

Many thanks

I usually do Libra x Olivia although I usually want Galeforce on Ini and that would take a while D:

I'm not up to chapter 5 yet in this current run, so I may just have to juggle as best I can (Lon'qu is the highest at level 13 at the moment) I will have a tough time getting levels for Ricken when I get him...

It's not like I can have him be free-ranged...yes I went there because I find said joke funny and I like Ricken

I think if I have Miriel support him that would/could be helpful for him and leave Maribelle free to play heal everyone. I am more likely to second seal Chrom and Robin (both to cavaliers because double weapon EXP is nice and I need it on Robin if I want to raise her weapon rank) and use my last one either to go pegasus knight or second seal Lucina into tactician (with double weapon exp being handed down by Robin)

[Czar_Yoshi]

Ricken is really bad, is there any reason in particular you want to train him? If you do, he'll want a support to help with his durability.

If you want to save Inigo, go for Severa instead. Unless you're using Vaike!Severa, neither of her parent inheritance matters.

You will get one guaranteed early Second Seal from Renown. Robin can make the best use of it, so you may want to prioritize her levels.

[TheSilentChloey]

Ricken is really bad, is there any reason in particular you want to train him? If you do, he'll want a support to help with his durability.

If you want to save Inigo, go for Severa instead. Unless you're using Vaike!Severa, neither of her parent inheritance matters.

You will get one guaranteed early Second Seal from Renown. Robin can make the best use of it, so you may want to prioritize her levels.

I'm going for Ricken!Laurent so massive support grining and training ahead. Once I get Ricken to level 5 he's usually alright (although I just need to get him going first).

I'm not sure who to use as Severa's father (may do Gregor!Severa)

I don't have enough renown yet D:

[Czar_Yoshi]

You haven't beaten the game even once? The Second Seal costs so little, it's impossible not to have enough after a single playthrough.

[Dwlr]

I currently have a problem for my normal F!Robin run through Awakening. I am debating on getting non healers to max out to level 20 or second/master seal them while they are at level 10. I have several units that are near or past the level 10 threshold and are able to second/master seal. I am pretty sure that I will be second sealing Chrom and Robin at level 10 (if my luck with Anna holds!) or at the very least master sealing Chrom. Is it better to go to level 20 or second sealing/master sealing at level 10?

~TSC

1) For normal you don't really need to even attempt to min/max, Freddy can even be a good unit experience sucker that he is and all, though if you want to actually use him for the campaign I'd recommend Second Sealing him into a basic class to make him easier to level after he's learned Luna.

2) I'm going to assume that's supposed to be "one" not "non" and am going to go from there. Getting everything you want on a unit can be time consuming, chances are you're going to fill in stat gaps just getting skills in each class so not maxing out your level before Second Sealing is most likely going to save you some time. That said if you have a lot of non-promoted skills you want for whatever reason then you should consider rushing to get characters that don't have basic class skills (or at the very least not a lot of basic class skills) you want and get them good enough stats to beat Rogues and Redeemers 3 that way the characters that you're going to be Second Sealing from basic class to basic class can use Limit Breaker and continue to gain stat points in a category that they might otherwise hit the stat cap on. Depending on how many advance class skills you're looking to obtain on those characters in might not actually save you any time so you have to look at what you want in the end to see if it's worth it. (For instance Gaius will prolly hit max speed during his time spent in a basic classes, but in the end Limit Breakering him during that time prolly won't make much of a difference, but Children characters that can get passed some skills might not need to pick up a lot of skills for themselves so Limit Breaker on them early can save you some time not that they're terribly difficult to max out or anything mind you, but time saved is time saved.)

3) It varies on when it's best to promote, it depends on how the RNG has treated you and where you're stats are like has already been mentioned promoting early on a unit that has more or less hit their caps in multiple stats is going to let you start filling in those stats quicker otherwise it's easier to level a lower level character.

4) If you have all the DLC and you don't care about being leveled Lost Bloodlines 3 isn't terribly difficult has 2 to enter, gives Paragon and has a decent number of enemies for when you do hit the point where you get 8 Exp per kill regardless what you kill.

5) To further save time, classes that can use staves should be saved for last since using Rescue (when money isn't an issue) will end up giving you more exp than kills and you can use them whilst you're using kills to train somebody else.

[TheSilentChloey]

You haven't beaten the game even once? The Second Seal costs so little, it's impossible not to have enough after a single playthrough.

I did and have cleared the game before but then I deleted the files by accident D: and that was when I discovered that renown rewards existed *cries*

1) For normal you don't really need to even attempt to min/max, Freddy can even be a good unit experience sucker that he is and all, though if you want to actually use him for the campaign I'd recommend Second Sealing him into a basic class to make him easier to level after he's learned Luna.

2) I'm going to assume that's supposed to be "one" not "non" and am going to go from there. Getting everything you want on a unit can be time consuming, chances are you're going to fill in stat gaps just getting skills in each class so not maxing out your level before Second Sealing is most likely going to save you some time. That said if you have a lot of non-promoted skills you want for whatever reason then you should consider rushing to get characters that don't have basic class skills (or at the very least not a lot of basic class skills) you want and get them good enough stats to beat Rogues and Redeemers 3 that way the characters that you're going to be Second Sealing from basic class to basic class can use Limit Breaker and continue to gain stat points in a category that they might otherwise hit the stat cap on. Depending on how many advance class skills you're looking to obtain on those characters in might not actually save you any time so you have to look at what you want in the end to see if it's worth it. (For instance Gaius will prolly hit max speed during his time spent in a basic classes, but in the end Limit Breakering him during that time prolly won't make much of a difference, but Children characters that can get passed some skills might not need to pick up a lot of skills for themselves so Limit Breaker on them early can save you some time not that they're terribly difficult to max out or anything mind you, but time saved is time saved.)

3) It varies on when it's best to promote, it depends on how the RNG has treated you and where you're stats are like has already been mentioned promoting early on a unit that has more or less hit their caps in multiple stats is going to let you start filling in those stats quicker otherwise it's easier to level a lower level character.

4) If you have all the DLC and you don't care about being leveled Lost Bloodlines 3 isn't terribly difficult has 2 to enter, gives Paragon and has a decent number of enemies for when you do hit the point where you get 8 Exp per kill regardless what you kill.

5) To further save time, classes that can use staves should be saved for last since using Rescue (when money isn't an issue) will end up giving you more exp than kills and you can use them whilst you're using kills to train somebody else.

1~ Sure waste a second seal on someone I don't use in normal is a sound idea :/ the most I have Frederick for is to support Sumia not get into the main fray and do the fighting while hogging EXP I can use on other units :/ that was something that I learned not to do very early on the hard way I might add.

2~ Yes I mean non healer as in those units that are not healers but are combat units like Lon'qu, Miriel, Virion, Stalh, Kellam etc. This is not a discussion including Lissa and Maribelle. And no I am not going anywhere near more advanced DLC maps when I can barely beat Infinate Regalia properly. That is what I have The Golden Gaffe and EXPontial growth for :/ they allow my units to gain levels and when they're high enough on their mag/str/def/res I just auto run the maps. Seems pretty time concerving between chapters when I have a good supply of second seals which at chapter 5, you don't have a supply of second seals to spare let alone master seals :/

3~ And I don't know that? Serious as I said before: I don't know if I should second/master seal my units or max out their levels. Add to that I have a unit who is over level 10 and second sealed Lissa into a troubadour and will likely second seal Chrom x Robin when they are at level 10 because base class skills and all. I think though that I will likely have to wait for the second seals and make sure that if I do get units up to level 20 to give them a seal priority when I get the seals.

4~ 8 EXP? Are you kidding? There is no way that my units would be at that point. EXPontial Growth and Golden Gaffe give my decent enough rewards as it is. Far better to have too much gold then not enough, which reminds me that usually once I get everyone to their final classes more often then not they are stat capping anyway.

5~ What am I dumb? Then again I guess you don't know my style of playing. Seriously check out my playthrough or some choice comments I have made in the pairing thread. If not then I'll say it here:

My healers are the quickest to level up in my playthroughs. Lissa easily gets to level 10 before chapter 4 (if I am seriously focused) and in my current F!Robin playthrough (which we are discussing btw), she was second sealed to Troubadour during Donnel's paralogue just before Chrom killed the boss. I am the sort of person that will heal up the tiniest (aka 1 point of damage/level up damage) on my units. So you can bet that my healers will be just fine at reaching their levels and goals without a damn rescue staff I might add :/

This is also the point where I tastefully add I am hopeless at the game and can't clear it without losing units (and/or Chrom/Robin) on Normal so anything you deem as "easy" could very well be near impossible for me to pull off. Hell I was stuck on Chapter 4 for almost 2 bloody years on my first run through the game because I kept losing either Robin or Chrom :/ and you say that LB3 is easy :/ easy for you no doubt, but you can't speak for me, so I suggest you keep that in mind.

[eclipse]

If the game can be solo'd on Hard by Chrom, I don't think you have to worry about experience hogs on Normal - my favorite use of Frederick is to get Dual Guard+, SS to Griffon Knight, and turn him into a ferry. Assuming you give him some levels every now and then, he'll serve you well for a LONG time! That being said, if you don't have room/just don't like him, that's fine. . .but he's NOT a waste of time from a strict numbers perspective!

I'd recommend doing some skirmishes - they'll teach you a bit more about positioning, as opposed to just being OP and letting the AI sort it out. It'll also give you an idea of who you want to bring with you, and who can warm the bench.

As for Second Seal/Master Seal, Czar_Yoshi gave you some pretty good generic advice. The general rule is that unpromoted units gain experience faster than promoted ones, and that there's certain unpromoted classes that have skills that just aren't worth it (KNIGHT I AM LOOKING AT YOU). If you want all the green numbers, and quickly, Second Seal through unpromoted classes (I like waiting until level 15+, but it's up to you, since you're probably not losing a giant number of level-up stat points by using the SS at 10), then Master Seal once your stats are as high as you like (that's 20+ for whatever powers attacks and Speed, on Normal).

If, and IF you want to improve (and don't mind asking for help), that's fine - feel free to ask for help on specific chapters (or make a topic with your progress, if you forsee multiple chapters being a pain), and post stuff like the stats of the important units, and you'll probably get a decent response. However, please give the suggestions you get a shot, even if they seem totally different to what you're expecting!

[TheSilentChloey]

If the game can be solo'd on Hard by Chrom, I don't think you have to worry about experience hogs on Normal - my favorite use of Frederick is to get Dual Guard+, SS to Griffon Knight, and turn him into a ferry. Assuming you give him some levels every now and then, he'll serve you well for a LONG time! That being said, if you don't have room/just don't like him, that's fine. . .but he's NOT a waste of time from a strict numbers perspective!

I'd recommend doing some skirmishes - they'll teach you a bit more about positioning, as opposed to just being OP and letting the AI sort it out. It'll also give you an idea of who you want to bring with you, and who can warm the bench.

As for Second Seal/Master Seal, Czar_Yoshi gave you some pretty good generic advice. The general rule is that unpromoted units gain experience faster than promoted ones, and that there's certain unpromoted classes that have skills that just aren't worth it (KNIGHT I AM LOOKING AT YOU). If you want all the green numbers, and quickly, Second Seal through unpromoted classes (I like waiting until level 15+, but it's up to you, since you're probably not losing a giant number of level-up stat points by using the SS at 10), then Master Seal once your stats are as high as you like (that's 20+ for whatever powers attacks and Speed, on Normal).

If, and IF you want to improve (and don't mind asking for help), that's fine - feel free to ask for help on specific chapters (or make a topic with your progress, if you forsee multiple chapters being a pain), and post stuff like the stats of the important units, and you'll probably get a decent response. However, please give the suggestions you get a shot, even if they seem totally different to what you're expecting!

I have tried some of the skirmishes (there was one that kept killing Vaike no matter what I was trying *glares at the mages*).

I don't mind Frederick per say and he does get some use (backing up Sumia mostly). I didn't quite word out what I meant properly I think. Bascially I tend to give Fred some EXP as I go from chapter to chapter if I need to deply him, but I don't want to use second seals on him until I have a steady supply, (either through Inigo/Severa/Chapter 16) as my luck with Anna is not always the best and I want to make sure that when I go for chapter 13 that Chrom and Lucina's mother (in this case Robin) are at the highest possible stats so Lucina can keep up with the other children. Frederick does get my undivided attention when I have the second seals (I tend to level units up as pairs I have found) and gets a lot of reclassing etc on Golden Gaffe and EXPonetial Growth. The problem is that I can't get him to learn Luna fast enough (I think he was level 2 the last time I played damn getting sick!) and there are others that I tend to deply more to grow.

More than likely I will make use of what Czar_Yoshi suggested because that actually helps with my current situation (and I am hoping it works out). I was planing on maybe growing my combat units out to level 20 at least in their base classes (not so much the healers, but Lissa and Maribelle will do most of their growing as combat units and switching out their classes is kind of a must...but then I lose healers unless I play the cleric Robin card). I also plan to make the 1st reclasses to be base classes to level 10 (like Chrom and Robin for example being reclassed to cavaliers) and reclassing them to get class skills. I think there is another second seal come chapter 8? 9? not so sure on that and will have to look it up! That second seal will doubtless help things (and getting renown as well *sighs*)

I believe that was why I was posted "Redoing a Normal Awakening Run." for the specific reason that there is a point where I start losing units/or can not clear a map without allies falling and everything falls apart on a strategical front (usually around chapters 5, 8/9 paralogue 2/3/4) D: I'm pretty sure that I have been posting stats as well as some position stuff.

That said there are a lot of things that I have learned thanks to everyone on SF and I can say that a good 100% of helpful advice has been utalised in some form or another when I do a playthrough, whether it is pairings or skillsets for example. I know that I can sound a little uptight sometimes (and I do apologise for that D:) however that by no means is an indication of if I am or am not utalising advice that I recieve here on SF. It also doesn't mean that I don't consider said advice. Sometimes I am either already using it and it could be redundant (e.g Dwlr's number 2 suggestion) or that I have already done a pairing and can't change it (e.g Suggestion to use Gaius!Noire when I've already married Tharja to Henry/another husband in the current run). That doesn't mean that I won't try the advice, it just means I can't use it in my current run and will likely try it out on my next one.

Edited January 10, 2016 by TheSilentChloey

[Czar_Yoshi]

I did and have cleared the game before but then I deleted the files by accident D: and that was when I discovered that renown rewards existed *cries*

And no I am not going anywhere near more advanced DLC maps when I can barely beat Infinate Regalia properly.

You should beat up a really weak Spotpass team a few times (try FE6 -> Wolt or FE9 -> Mist). They give 50 Renown each, you can very quickly and easily get enough Renown for the early rewards. The Second Seal is particularly helpful, and the Levin Sword, Celica's Gale and Beastkiller are cheap and good too.

IR actually is one of the more advanced DLC maps, it's listed as 4 stars of difficulty in the Outrealm Gate DLC shop. While it does scale with difficulty, a map full of promoted units, on a timer, with your team split up and all the enemies with really strong weapons is nothing to sneeze at.

For Fred, Luna actually isn't that important- it'll activate rarely because he's not getting a lot of Skl in a hurry, and it won't have much of an effect since it halves enemy Def and it takes a long time on Normal for enemies to have much Def. On the whole, you'll see a better damage output from Wyvern's Str+2. Unless you just like seeing Fred yelling crit quotes, in which case it's very nice.

Edited January 10, 2016 by Czar_Yoshi

[TheSilentChloey]

You should beat up a really weak Spotpass team a few times (try FE6 -> Wolt or FE9 -> Mist). They give 50 Renown each, you can very quickly and easily get enough Renown for the early rewards. The Second Seal is particularly helpful, and the Levin Sword, Celica's Gale and Beastkiller are cheap and good too.

IR actually is one of the more advanced DLC maps, it's listed as 4 stars of difficulty in the Outrealm Gate DLC shop. While it does scale with difficulty, a map full of promoted units, on a timer, with your team split up and all the enemies with really strong weapons is nothing to sneeze at.

For Fred, Luna actually isn't that important- it'll activate rarely because he's not getting a lot of Skl in a hurry, and it won't have much of an effect since it halves enemy Def and it takes a long time on Normal for enemies to have much Def. On the whole, you'll see a better damage output from Wyvern's Str+2. Unless you just like seeing Fred yelling crit quotes, in which case it's very nice.

I think Nyna is also pretty weak too. She usually gives javlins and mends when you shop from her team I think.

[Dwlr]

I did and have cleared the game before but then I deleted the files by accident D: and that was when I discovered that renown rewards existed *cries*

1~ Sure waste a second seal on someone I don't use in normal is a sound idea :/ the most I have Frederick for is to support Sumia not get into the main fray and do the fighting while hogging EXP I can use on other units :/ that was something that I learned not to do very early on the hard way I might add.

2~ Yes I mean non healer as in those units that are not healers but are combat units like Lon'qu, Miriel, Virion, Stalh, Kellam etc. This is not a discussion including Lissa and Maribelle. And no I am not going anywhere near more advanced DLC maps when I can barely beat Infinate Regalia properly. That is what I have The Golden Gaffe and EXPontial growth for :/ they allow my units to gain levels and when they're high enough on their mag/str/def/res I just auto run the maps. Seems pretty time concerving between chapters when I have a good supply of second seals which at chapter 5, you don't have a supply of second seals to spare let alone master seals :/

3~ And I don't know that? Serious as I said before: I don't know if I should second/master seal my units or max out their levels. Add to that I have a unit who is over level 10 and second sealed Lissa into a troubadour and will likely second seal Chrom x Robin when they are at level 10 because base class skills and all. I think though that I will likely have to wait for the second seals and make sure that if I do get units up to level 20 to give them a seal priority when I get the seals.

4~ 8 EXP? Are you kidding? There is no way that my units would be at that point. EXPontial Growth and Golden Gaffe give my decent enough rewards as it is. Far better to have too much gold then not enough, which reminds me that usually once I get everyone to their final classes more often then not they are stat capping anyway.

5~ What am I dumb? Then again I guess you don't know my style of playing. Seriously check out my playthrough or some choice comments I have made in the pairing thread. If not then I'll say it here:

My healers are the quickest to level up in my playthroughs. Lissa easily gets to level 10 before chapter 4 (if I am seriously focused) and in my current F!Robin playthrough (which we are discussing btw), she was second sealed to Troubadour during Donnel's paralogue just before Chrom killed the boss. I am the sort of person that will heal up the tiniest (aka 1 point of damage/level up damage) on my units. So you can bet that my healers will be just fine at reaching their levels and goals without a damn rescue staff I might add :/

This is also the point where I tastefully add I am hopeless at the game and can't clear it without losing units (and/or Chrom/Robin) on Normal so anything you deem as "easy" could very well be near impossible for me to pull off. Hell I was stuck on Chapter 4 for almost 2 bloody years on my first run through the game because I kept losing either Robin or Chrom :/ and you say that LB3 is easy :/ easy for you no doubt, but you can't speak for me, so I suggest you keep that in mind.

1) If you're min/maxing everyone then you'd have to do it eventually anyway and IMO if you aren't counting everybody then it's not really min/maxing.

2) Lost Bloodlines is easier than Infinite Regalia.

3) You can get second seals from towns in the DLC ergo play Lost Bloodlines problems solved.

4) They eventually hit that if you change class enough, so it's good to have a plan for getting exp for the characters that change quite a bit for whatever skills you want.

5) And those healers using them as healers to begin with makes it harder to gain exp later, saving the staff classes you want to get skills out of lets you circumvent the painfully slow exp growth compared to fighting so doing staff classes first is just going to make everything take longer in the end since they get the same exp regardless how many class changes they've been through.