Archers: do they really suck?

[Knight]

Fates does have 1-2 range physical swords, but... yeah.

Wait, what are they? Are they like wind edges or something else?

I know Awakening had throwing swords which were really weird. Chuck Ragnell!

Edited January 20, 2016 by Knight

[Shadow Mir]

Wait, what are they? Are they like wind edges or something else?

I know Awakening had throwing swords which were really weird. Chuck Ragnell!

They're throwing swords I assume.

[Refa]

dondon's opinion on growth is valid. Growth is reliant on RNG, base is not. If you have bad luck and poor growth in difficulty like Lunatic (where every stat point matters early game) chances are you won't be any useful later on.

You can't get by on just bases on the hardest difficulties in either FE12 or FE13 (I'm inclined to believe that FE14 is the same but I don't want to make any false assumptions). Growths are absolutely more important for 95% of the cast in both games.

[FrostyFireMage]

You can't get by on just bases on the hardest difficulties in either FE12 or FE13 (I'm inclined to believe that FE14 is the same but I don't want to make any false assumptions). Growths are absolutely more important for 95% of the cast in both games.

but dondon often does 0% growth runs (probably by spamming warp staves but w/e)

I don't get why people say virion is bad in awakening when bows are amazing with dual strikes

[ruadath]

Archers are pretty decent in the Tellius series (especially FE10!Shinon). Having access to Crossbows is pretty awesome, and they have an innate +10 Crit (like Myrmidons and Halberdiers) which is useful too. Also, like Reavers, their mastery skill only takes 25 Cap, which means upon reaching 3rd tier, you can give them 2 15-cost skills (i.e. Pass+Celerity) and let them wreck enemy forces from behind the lines.

Then again, with the easy availability of 1-2 range weapons in RD, crossbows fixed Atk is a bit of a problem, but it's not terrible.

[Shadow Mir]

How exactly are 1-2 range weapons nerfed in fates? I looked at them on the wiki and I didn't see anything like that.

Aside from what Elie pointed out, magic also got noifed (that said, magic classes don't have it as bad as they did in Radiant Dawn; at least I doubt that's the case).

Archers are pretty decent in the Tellius series (especially FE10!Shinon). Having access to Crossbows is pretty awesome, and they have an innate +10 Crit (like Myrmidons and Halberdiers) which is useful too. Also, like Reavers, their mastery skill only takes 25 Cap, which means upon reaching 3rd tier, you can give them 2 15-cost skills (i.e. Pass+Celerity) and let them wreck enemy forces from behind the lines.

Then again, with the easy availability of 1-2 range weapons in RD, crossbows fixed Atk is a bit of a problem, but it's not terrible.

I kinda disagree with them being great in the Tellius series as a whole (if you meant RD, I'd say yes, but not so much in PoR). Also, crossbows' fixed Mt is terrible when the strongest buyable ones are only 28 Mt, which stops being a significant threat to anything other than mages rather quickly >_>

Edited January 20, 2016 by Levant Colthearts

[Alastor15243]

Aside from what Elie pointed out, magic also got noifed (that said, magic classes don't have it as bad as they did in Radiant Dawn; at least I doubt that's the case).

In what sense did it get nerfed? The tomes don't seem any significantly worse than weapons do, and there's nothing saying they can't double attack.

[Shadow Mir]

In what sense did it get nerfed? The tomes don't seem any significantly worse than weapons do, and there's nothing saying they can't double attack.

Well, it's what I read on the Fates board, at least. I'm not entirely sure, however. Though I guess it being put in the weapon triangle might have something to do with it... That said, they DID bring the nerf hammer down on Nosferatu (and Shadowgift, by extension).

Edited January 20, 2016 by Levant Colthearts

[Life]

Good Bow users: Innes, Geitz, Virion, any Hunter or Horsemen in FE11/12

Average bow users: Neimi, Louise, Rath, Gordin, Ulster,

Bad Bow users: Norne, Midir, Wil, Rebecca, Wolt, Dorothy

Made a few corrections here. Everyone in FE7 dropped a rank but you forgot about Geitz who has B Bows. He's pretty much the only good archer (and I use him as my primary archer) in the game.

[Irysa]

but dondon often does 0% growth runs (probably by spamming warp staves but w/e)

I don't get why people say virion is bad in awakening when bows are amazing with dual strikes

Refa only specified FE12 and 13 specifically for this reason. They're the only games in the series so far that 0% growths on the highest difficulty is impossible.

As for Bows being good with DS, yeah but...the problem is actually training him. He preforms pretty adequately as a pair up partner for a while but actually leveling him up is a bit difficult.

Soeaking of Awakening the reason Virion is bad is less Archer class and more his horrible reclasses that barely give him useful skills if any.

Virion can pull off Wyvern in regular Lunatic and that class is pretty OP, so he can snowball. I mean most chars do the same with a bit of favouritism in FE13, but still, shitty skills are hardly relevant for someone who can go Wyvern <_<

Edited January 20, 2016 by Irysa

[Espinosa]

Is New Mystery really impossible on Lunatic? Maybe you can still make it by going very slowly and then feeding Marth every stat booster? I don't think anyone has really tried.

For Awakening, I imagine the bonus content and the characters outside the game's cast present an exploitable loophole to succeed on Lunatic/L+ without any need for growths.

Virion can pull off Wyvern in regular Lunatic and that class is pretty OP, so he can snowball. I mean most chars do the same with a bit of favouritism in FE13, but still, shitty skills are hardly relevant for someone who can go Wyvern <_<

I think you and the other poster have different criteria in mind about what makes a unit good - they for a maxed stat unit who has better skills, and you for something applicable in efficiency settings.

[Irysa]

Is New Mystery really impossible on Lunatic? Maybe you can still make it by going very slowly and then feeding Marth every stat booster? I don't think anyone has really tried.

Lunatic might be doable if you allow suicide distractions and don't care about recruiting everyone. Although to be honest I'm pretty sure you're going to hit a really nasty wall come Chapter 15 (Paladin/Horseman onslaught), and Chapters 18 through Endgame look like they're impossible to me on 0%. BUt regardless, I was talking Lunatic Reverse. And that's definitely impossible because there just aren't enough Seraph Robes to pull people out of being OHKO'd by lategame and Dragons aren't even nice enough to get oneshot consistently unless people have capped strength/lance rank and +9 Pike forges.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Irysa

[Anouleth]

Oh. That's... actually pretty cool honestly. At the very least it lowers the arbitrary advantage that lances and axes have been given over swords in nearly every Fire Emblem game but 10 and 4. Seriously, why did they decide swords couldn't have readily available 2-range weapons?

Because it would be boring if every weapon type worked the same way?

[Alastor15243]

Because it would be boring if every weapon type worked the same way?

There's a difference between "every weapon is different for the sake of variety" and "some weapon types are objectively inferior for the sake of variety".

[Gradivus.]

There's a difference between "every weapon is different for the sake of variety" and "some weapon types are objectively inferior for the sake of variety".

Swords vs axe/lances is easy to rank among the first category.

Swords aren't objectively inferior, they're represented by some of the fastest classes in SM and Hero, you often get Killing Edges early, they are the only weapon effective against dragons/wyverns in some games, they're accurate against everything, allow for easy dodging against axes and some more. There are also magic swords that can be implemented to be good - I think you'll be hard pressed to find many people that find FE5's magic weapons bad, for example, and Levin Swords in FE12 and 13 have various uses against the many enemies with poor res.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Gradivus.

[secondworld]

I'd even say swords are probably the best weapon type in FE6.

@topic, yeah I'd say they do. I don't think it's as much because of inherent problems with the class itself like I used to though. Even if archer/sniper isn't exactly the best class, a unit of that class can easily be good anyway just by having good stats, as opposed to the knight class which has limitations not even stats can solve.

[BrightBow]

There's a difference between "every weapon is different for the sake of variety" and "some weapon types are objectively inferior for the sake of variety".

Then the answer should be to give swords a strength that makes up for their lack of ranged options instead of making the weapons even more similar to each other.

Same thing goes of course for bows. Bows don't need a melee option, they need a strength that makes up for that handicap.

[Knight]

Bows are good against fliers, that's something I guess. I don't understand why there hasn't been an archer character with something like Elite/Paragon yet, and why they consistently seem to have below average bases and bad growths.

[Espinosa]

Then the answer should be to give swords a strength that makes up for their lack of ranged options instead of making the weapons even more similar to each other.

Same thing goes of course for bows. Bows don't need a melee option, they need a strength that makes up for that handicap.

Bows are strong enough in the hands of the enemy already. To motivate the player to use bow wielders, um, increase their base stats? Some hacks/reverse recruitment got the right idea that making the Jeigan a bowlocked unit promotes their usage. A Jeigan with accelerated growth rate would be even more popular if situations to use bows continue to arise, and they have unique utility as 2-range or great availability (e.g. Brave Bow in FE7).

[Knight]

Having a Sniper with Seth stats and growths would be great and all, but then what would the point in having an unpromoted bow unit be?

[Espinosa]

Having a Sniper with Seth stats and growths would be great and all, but then what would the point in having an unpromoted bow unit be?

Simply put, don't make bowlocked units available. Make it bow + something else. FE Girls had the right idea of giving bows as an option that's there to "random" classes like Paladin - and you did find opportunities to use bows, too. FE Girls really did a lot of things right (hence Awakening and Fates stealing its ideas).

You could also give bow users unique utility of sorts that isn't sniping fliers. In Nohr, Zero is one of the two units who can easily get Pass to simplify Endgame Lunatic. He also captures enemies, the exact practical application of which still remains unclear to me (I just recently got enough resources to recruit Draj from prison and I'm at a bit of a loss how she's supposed to help my army as a /20 Adventurer).

[FrostyFireMage]

Having a Sniper with Seth stats and growths would be great and all, but then what would the point in having an unpromoted bow unit be?

have the Sniper leave for like 10 chapters a la Shinon or give them a plot-related death?

[Radiant Dragon]

Having a Sniper with Seth stats and growths would be great and all, but then what would the point in having an unpromoted bow unit be?

True. Imagine FE9 for example; Rolf would be even more useless than he already is if Shinon didn't leave for half the game.

[X-Naut]

I've had the idea that bow users get Proximity Shot as an S-rank bonus, although it would be extremely limited in application (no doubling, not compatible with longbows, possibly a reduced crit rate). Beyond that, no thanks. Short Bow hacks turned me off to the idea, especially the ones that forget to remove the crit rate...

Beyond higher base stats, each bow class could have its own benefits. Unpromoted, archers get longbows (provided the game actually gives us one, I'm looking at you FE12) while the mounted version is obviously mounted. Promoted, Snipers get longbows, a Hit bonus to make them more effective and a damage bonus when they have 100% Hit. Warriors also get longbows and have axes too, but lack the Hit bonus and skills to use them to the same proficiency. Rangers are Rangers, and Thief or Armor bow classes are optional additions with their own unique utility. I don't think I'd want first-tier bow armors though.

[Gradivus.]

I'm looking at you FE12

There's one in chapter 20x that is actually pretty useful but yeah it would've been cool to get longbows earlier.

Edited January 20, 2016 by Gradivus.