Miatt Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 I will be upset if it's a drug. If it's just a joke(like salt, piment or anything like that), it's different. But yeah in the end, a lot of dialogues of FE14 are poorly written and one censor will not change this fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stahl_gaius_fan Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 I will be upset if it's a drug. If it's just a joke(like salt, piment or anything like that), it's different. But yeah in the end, a lot of dialogues of FE14 are poorly written and one censor will not change this fact. I really don't see how you don't think this is a drug. It's a powder that causes hallucinations. Doesn't get more druggy than that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solkia Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 Well, at this point I give up on IS's writing department, they seem to have all the good writers locked in the Paper Mario cabinet. Hope Treehouse can still make it fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HF Makalov Fanboy Kai Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 I really don't see how you don't think this is a drug. It's a powder that causes hallucinations. Doesn't get more druggy than that. should we call that support chain after the yoshi's island level "touch fuzzy, get dizzy?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Miatt Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 I really don't see how you don't think this is a drug. It's a powder that causes hallucinations. Doesn't get more druggy than that. But it doesn't affect the personality. it's magic, more like a spell, but who can do nothing. It's magic, not drug,, something different. You can't compare this with the real world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Book of Ereshkigal Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) Well, at this point I give up on IS's writing department, they seem to have all the good writers locked in the Paper Mario cabinet. Hope Treehouse can still make it fun I've read before, and I don't know how true this is, that Japanese Paper Mario is a bit drier in the dialogue department, and a lot of the charm comes from the localization's writing. Apparently this is why Japanese Club Nintendo users don't really like PM in some survey a while ago? Edited January 22, 2016 by L95 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KawaiiPersona Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 speaking of magic, do you guys think if the whole powder and drink never happened and was replaced with magic it wouldn't be so controversial? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stahl_gaius_fan Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 But it doesn't affect the personality. it's magic, more like a spell, but who can do nothing. It's magic, not drug,, something different. You can't compare this with the real world. I've given every reason why its not magic, but a drug, but whatever. Agree to disagree. I can't continue to argue with a brick wall. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CompteSecours Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 We can see this dialogue in 2 ways imo. 1- Kamui drugs Soleil to bang her or 2- It shows that true love isn't determined by gender or sexe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Knight Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 We can see this dialogue in 2 ways imo. 1- Kamui drugs Soleil to bang her or 2- It shows that true love isn't determined by gender or sexe I think the latter is what the support is trying to go for, but the method of trying to teach it has plenty of unfortunate implications, not just with the drugging. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CompteSecours Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 Yes this dialogue is very clumsy. I think they should try to make " normal " support interesting first, before dealing with such a hard subject. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time the Crestfallen Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) For the Soleil issue, if there are people that still want to defend it by saying it was a prank or there's no bad effects, then just put yourself in "her" shoes. If someone slipped you ANYTHING, without your knowledge (even worse a drug at that--magic or not it was an unknown powder Corrin just got....somewhere), wouldn't you be upset? It's not even about the fake characters. It's about the fact that this represents drugging people (or doing anything to someone for that matter) without their consent. as okay cause "it'll just work out in the end". Nintendo games are often played by kids (yes even if Fire Emblem is targeted/rated for teens or whatever). Do you want your kid/little sibling/little cousin whatever thinking that it's okay to just put some random substance into someone's drink? Oh but it was just a prank...Oh but I meant well... Like many people are saying, "the end doesn't justify the means". That's not what people (or at least me personally) are arguing about though. Yes, it was a shitty thing to do and he's a dickhead for doing it, but the initial argument was that comparing it to Gay Conversion or Date-Rape was inaccurate and a misrepresentation of what actually happens. However, in response to someone comparing the support to spiking drinks with alcohol, I brought up that the magic powder doesn't have a well-documented list of side-effects that have resulted in many cases of crippling and fatal accidents and that the powder, if used in the supports of someone like Orochi or Lissa from Awakening, would simply have been a novelty item used for a prank and then forgotten about. I really don't see how you don't think this is a drug. It's a powder that causes hallucinations. Doesn't get more druggy than that. And now I have to do the same song and dance. Here's a definition for a drug: "A medicine or other substance which has a physiological effect when ingested or otherwise introduced into the body." So yes, the powder qualifies as a drug. Do you know what else qualifies as a drug? Caffeine and green tea leaves. Hell, two table spoons of pure caffeine powder will kill you (as will just about any drug if you overdose on it for that matter). Is the powder a hallucinogenic drug? Yes, but comparing it to the real world is, again, a bit of a stretch since this powder isn't shown inducing any effect in Soleil other than what Kamui says it will so. Comparing something like DMT which can cause: [spoiler=I'm freaking out man!] -Hallucinations that affect visual senses, auditory senses, body (such as temperature) as well as time and space -Disorganised thoughts, confusion, impaired thinking and trouble concentrating -Increased heart-rate and blood pressure -Irregular heartbeat -Nausea and vomiting -Unpleasant/intense hallucinations -Paranoia -Anxiety, fear and/or panic -Not to mention deaths from suicide, accidents and dangerous behaviour To something that: [spoiler=I think I need to talk to my weed guy...] -Makes people see men as women -... -Uhh... Is inaccurate and an exaggeration of both the power of the 'drug' as well as how dangerous both the 'drug' is and Kamui's actions are. Edited January 22, 2016 by Phillius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarthanta Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) Rhajwhat now? Next thing we know, Odin's gonna be Nowai. Edited January 22, 2016 by Sarthanta Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrimeanRoyalKnight Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 speaking of magic, do you guys think if the whole powder and drink never happened and was replaced with magic it wouldn't be so controversial? I think Kamui will ask Soleil if she wants him to cast a special spell on her that will help her with her issue, telling her the effect before hand; she agrees, and after the spell she starts seing boys as girls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stahl_gaius_fan Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) That's not what people (or at least me personally) are arguing about though. Yes, it was a shitty thing to do and he's a dickhead for doing it, but the initial argument was that comparing it to Gay Conversion or Date-Rape was inaccurate and a misrepresentation of what actually happens. However, in response to someone comparing the support to spiking drinks with alcohol, I brought up that the magic powder doesn't have a well-documented list of side-effects that have resulted in many cases of crippling and fatal accidents and that the powder, if used in the supports of someone like Orochi or Lissa from Awakening, would simply have been a novelty item used for a prank and then forgotten about. And now I have to do the same song and dance. Here's a definition for a drug: "A medicine or other substance which has a physiological effect when ingested or otherwise introduced into the body." So yes, the powder qualifies as a drug. Do you know what else qualifies as a drug? Caffeine and green tea leaves. Hell, two table spoons of pure caffeine powder will kill you (as will just about any drug if you overdose on it for that matter). Is the powder a hallucinogenic drug? Yes, but comparing it to the real world is, again, a bit of a stretch since this powder isn't shown inducing any effect in Soleil other than what Kamui says it will so. Comparing something like DMT which can cause: [spoiler=I'm freaking out man!] -Hallucinations that affect visual senses, auditory senses, body (such as temperature) as well as time and space -Disorganised thoughts, confusion, impaired thinking and trouble concentrating -Increased heart-rate and blood pressure -Irregular heartbeat -Nausea and vomiting -Unpleasant/intense hallucinations -Paranoia -Anxiety, fear and/or panic -Not to mention deaths from suicide, accidents and dangerous behaviour To something that: [spoiler=I think I need to talk to my weed guy...] -Makes people see men as women -... -Uhh... Is inaccurate and an exaggeration of both the power of the 'drug' as well as how dangerous both the 'drug' is and Kamui's actions are. It doesn't matter how strong the drug is or if it doesn't do anything you think is harmful. It's the fact that he didn't ask her if she'd be okay with using it. The whole support could have easily been fixed with the addition of "Hey, Soleil. So I got this powder from such-and-such that's supposed to make you see men as women. I think it could help you with your anxiety. Do you want to try it?". Edited January 22, 2016 by kisooni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hunter Nightblood Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 Basically, we've got another case of Unfortunate Implications. My guess is that the writers had the best of intentions while writing these support conversations and did not realize what they implied. I think the writers wanted the conclusion of the these support conversations to be "Soleil loves Kamui/Corrin reguardless of what gender they are." Whether they succeded or not is an entirelly subjective matter. Call it censorship if you wish, but it was pretty much a guarantee that this conversation would be changed in the localization. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time the Crestfallen Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) It doesn't matter how strong the drug is or if it doesn't do anything you think is harmful. It's the fact that he didn't ask her if she'd be okay with using it. The whole support could have easily been fixed with the addition of "Hey, Soleil. So I got this powder from such-and-such that's supposed to make you see men as women. I think it could help you with your anxiety. Do you want to try it?". That isn't the point I'm making. Excuse me while I go ahead and quote myself. That's not what people (or at least me personally) are arguing about though. Yes, it was a shitty thing to do and he's a dickhead for doing it, but the initial argument was that comparing it to Gay Conversion or Date-Rape was inaccurate and a misrepresentation of what actually happens. The second sentence I typed is literally saying that Kamui is a dick for putting it in her food/drink/whatever without telling her or asking for permission. I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing against comparing the powder to real-life drugs, as real-life drugs have numerous both scientifically and historically proven side-effects that have resulted in death and crippling accidents. Even when compared stuff like Marijuana, the magic powder is weak and the only reason people are comparing it to drugs, be they date-rape, hallucinogenic or psychoactive is because of the way Kamui uses it as opposed to how people like Orochi would use it. Edited January 22, 2016 by Phillius Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckc22 Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 It doesn't matter how strong the drug is or if it doesn't do anything you think is harmful. It's the fact that he didn't ask her if she'd be okay with using it. The whole support could have easily been fixed with the addition of "Hey, Soleil. So I got this powder from such-and-such that's supposed to make you see men as women. I think it could help you with your anxiety. Do you want to try it?". Exactly this is an option or they wouldn't have even had to go that far! Just have Corrin take something that makes him female - it's honestly a little weird that they went for masking someone else's perception instead of just altering self in the first place. I guess there's a question of misrepresentation there, but he reveals himself before anything happens anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stahl_gaius_fan Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) That isn't the point I'm making. Excuse me while I go ahead and quote myself. The second sentence I typed is literally saying that Kamui is a dick for putting it in her food/drink/whatever without telling her or asking for permission. I'm not arguing against that. I'm arguing against comparing the powder to real-life drugs, as real-life drugs have numerous both scientifically and historically proven side-effects that have resulted in death and crippling accidents. Even when compared stuff like Marijuana, the magic powder is weak and the only reason people are comparing it to drugs, be they date-rape, hallucinogenic or psychoactive is because of the way Kamui uses it as opposed to how people like Orochi would use it. I never said you didn't think Kamui was "a dick". Nor did I ever use the phrase "date-rape" (that was someone else), so to quote you: "That isn't the point I'm making". Rather, my argument is that they should not represent the act of giving someone an unknown (potentially dangerous and at the very least, temporarily altering) substance without their permission. This bleeds into the real world not because of the drug itself or how dangerous or not it is, but rather because it sets the precedent that consent is not needed. It tells people (as I said before, particularly young, dumb minds that can't necessarily tell right from wrong) that asking permission to mess with someone's body is a-okay which should never be the case. Edit: And yes. " the only reason people are comparing it to drugs, be they date-rape, hallucinogenic or psychoactive is because of the way Kamui uses it as opposed to how people like Orochi would use it." Is very true. You are 100% correct. I personally don't believe that all knives need to be banned (that would be dumb, and I have the same opinion about all drugs), but if someone uses a knife to stab someone then I would be opposed to them using it this way. However, I wouldn't be opposed to someone using the knife to chop some vegetables. And before you say it (cause I feel like you will), I'm not saying what Kamui did was as bad as stabbing someone. Edited January 22, 2016 by kisooni Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckc22 Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 I never said you didn't think Kamui was "a dick". Nor did I ever use the phrase "date-rape" (that was someone else), so to quote you: "That isn't the point I'm making". Rather, my argument is that they should not represent the act of giving someone an unknown (potentially dangerous and at the very least, temporarily altering) substance without their permission. This bleeds into the real world not because of the drug itself or how dangerous or not it is, but rather because it sets the precedent that consent is not needed. It tells people (as I said before, particularly young, dumb minds that can't necessarily tell right from wrong) that asking permission to mess with someone's body is a-okay which should never be the case. IMO there's nothing inherently wrong with representing giving someone an altering substance without their permission - but it should probably be handled seriously by the plot instead of a "ooooooh! so kawaii!" joke. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stahl_gaius_fan Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 IMO there's nothing inherently wrong with representing giving someone an altering substance without their permission - but it should probably be handled seriously by the plot instead of a "ooooooh! so kawaii!" joke. Then agree to disagree. I understand you and Phillius' opinion, but I will not be swayed nor will you. Thanks for the discussion, it was really eye-opening about where the line is drawn for different people. I personally would never give someone something in their drink without them knowing and I believe neither would you guys (I mean hopefully--I won't speak for you). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ckc22 Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 (edited) Then agree to disagree. I understand you and Phillius' opinion, but I will not be swayed nor will you. Thanks for the discussion, it was really eye-opening about where the line is drawn for different people. I personally would never give someone something in their drink without them knowing and I believe neither would you guys (I mean hopefully--I won't speak for you). Maybe I should clarify - I don't think the action is right. However, I don't think depicting said action/concept in media is wrong if it's handled seriously. If for example, a villain used some kind of altering substance on an ally and it was treated as an act of villainy - I think that's a legitimate plot point/discussion of an issue. The major issue with it's inclusion here is the tone/characterization of the incident as light hearted and "nbd." Edited January 22, 2016 by ckc22 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Solkia Posted January 22, 2016 Share Posted January 22, 2016 I've read before, and I don't know how true this is, that Japanese Paper Mario is a bit drier in the dialogue department, and a lot of the charm comes from the localization's writing. Apparently this is why Japanese Club Nintendo users don't really like PM in some survey a while ago? It would not remotely surprise me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stahl_gaius_fan Posted January 22, 2016 Author Share Posted January 22, 2016 Maybe I should clarify - I don't think the action is right. However, I don't think depicting said action/concept in media is wrong if it's handled seriously. If for example, a villain used some kind of altering substance on an ally and it was treated as an act of villainy - I think that's a legitimate plot point/discussion of an issue. The major issue with it's inclusion here is the tone/characterization of the incident as light hearted and "nbd." I will agree with you on that. It's fine if they had the same situation (because just not showing bad things doesn't mean they don't happen), but they needed to show that it was wrong. Like if they made Soleil get mad at Kamui after, or something negative happened with the drug or at least made Kamui more regretful or SOMETHING. Something to then turn this bad example, into a good one to learn from mistakes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Time the Crestfallen Posted January 23, 2016 Share Posted January 23, 2016 I never said you didn't think Kamui was "a dick". Nor did I ever use the phrase "date-rape" (that was someone else), so to quote you: "That isn't the point I'm making". Rather, my argument is that they should not represent the act of giving someone an unknown (potentially dangerous and at the very least, temporarily altering) substance without their permission. This bleeds into the real world not because of the drug itself or how dangerous or not it is, but rather because it sets the precedent that consent is not needed. It tells people (as I said before, particularly young, dumb minds that can't necessarily tell right from wrong) that asking permission to mess with someone's body is a-okay which should never be the case. Edit: And yes. " the only reason people are comparing it to drugs, be they date-rape, hallucinogenic or psychoactive is because of the way Kamui uses it as opposed to how people like Orochi would use it." Is very true. You are 100% correct. I personally don't believe that all knives need to be banned (that would be dumb, and I have the same opinion about all drugs), but if someone uses a knife to stab someone then I would be opposed to them using it this way. However, I wouldn't be opposed to someone using the knife to chop some vegetables. And before you say it (cause I feel like you will), I'm not saying what Kamui did was as bad as stabbing someone. What Kamui did isn't as bad as stabbing someone XD The main problem is that there's a very fine line between when something can be considered funny and done for laughs and when things get much more serious than that. For example, lacing someone's food with ground-up chili peppers. That would be funny and I would laugh if my friends did that (unless it happened to me. No shame). However, if the victim was allergic to chili peppers and went into anapylactic shock, it becomes much less funny and you can bet your life that people are gonna get in trouble for that. Similarly, Orochi/Kamui/Whoever giving her the powder as a prank might be funny to some, maybe eye-rolling to others but there would be no doubt that it would be intended to be a comedy support. Kamui putting the powder in her drink to help her with her girl problems is...not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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