Jump to content
deltanine

Continuation of "How many positive and well-made female characters can you think of?"

Recommended Posts

I recently stumbled upon Snowy_One's thread of "How many positive and well-made female characters can you think of?" I worked hard on a post I would love to make to it, but the threat is locked so they won't let me do that anymore. So I made a second one that continues it and here are the positive and well-made female characters that I can think of:

Blaze the Cat from Sonic the Hedgehog franchise:

Sonic_Channel_-_Blaze_The_Cat_2011.png

Blaze is awesome, no doubt about it. She’s the princess of some parallel dimension and her duty is to guard the Sol Emeralds. However, when she was young, Blaze feared that getting too emotional would cause her flame powers to go out of control and so she locked her own emotions away and became more distant with other people and more focused on her objectives. She distanced herself from other people and didn’t get along well with others. Then came the events of Sonic Rush when she ended up on Sonic’s dimension and met up with Cream the Rabbit and became friends with her. She still had an icy persona and quickly rejects any offered assistance, believing that she’s better off facing her challenges alone. However, Sonic eventually talked her into opening up to other people and learning to trust other people helped her accomplish what she couldn’t do alone. Becoming more passionate made her even stronger as it allowed the Sol Emeralds to turn her into Burning Blaze who is like Super Sonic except she can throw fireballs. They beat Dr. Eggman and his interdimensional counterpart and Blaze then happily returned to her home dimension.


Which leads me to Sonic Rush Adventure which is the sequel to Sonic Rush. In that game, Sonic and Tails get caught in a storm and wake up on an island, they search for answers, they get attacked by one of Captain Whiskers’ robots until Blaze rushes in and saves them. There, Sonic and Tails learn that they ended up in Blaze’s dimension, and while their search for answers continued, Blaze traveled with and fought alongside Sonic while her royal subjects helped them find the Sol Emeralds to keep them out of the wrong hands. When they defeated Captain Whiskers and found the Sol Emeralds and the Chaos Emeralds, they beat the two Eggmen a second time and Blaze managed to take Sonic and Tails back home.


Sash Lilac and Carol Tea from Freedom Planet:

Lilac.pngfreedom_planet___carol_tea_by_flam3zero-

I got into playing Freedom Planet last year and boy am I glad I did. I instantly got a kick out of Freedom Planet not only because of its awesome gameplay, but also because of its two main heroines: Sash Lilac and Carol Tea.

Let’s start with Sash Lilac. Out of all the characters in Freedom Planet, Lilac’s my personal favorite. She’s the most fun to play as and she has a great personality. She’s cheerful, nice, mature, smart, and always willing to help people out when they are in trouble. And no matter what happens to her, she never loses sight of her goal and keeps on going. However, she’s at one point in the game forced to wonder if her actions are doing her friends more harm than good and is willing to question what needs to be done in order to protect them. But when it becomes clear to her what she needs to do, she’ll do it, whether it’s for the sake of her friends or even planet Avalice itself.


And then there’s Carol. Carol is a snarky, energetic, and adventurous wildcat who longs for the simple things in life like a mansion, worldwide fame, and more money than she’d know what to do with. But she ultimately sticks by her best friend, Sash Lilac and helps her out when things get rough for her. Even when she felt like she shouldn’t be putting herself in danger just to be with Lilac, she ultimately decides to act to help her out when she needs her. Always caring for Lilac and Milla, Carol, despite her impulsive behavior, often acts as a voice of reason to Lilac and occasionally calls her out on being too reckless. But in the end, she still rises up for Lilac and Milla when they are in danger.


I’d talk about Milla too, but she’s not exactly on the exact same level as Carol and Lilac. While she is capable, she’s not a hardened warrior like Lilac and Carol are. She is still lovable though.


Judith from Tales of Vesperia:

tumblr_n0saro1Hn61re5ggwo1_1280.jpg

Now, I really love this lady. She’s a very strong and independent woman who fights big scary monsters and has fun while doing it. Her carefree attitude makes her incredibly lovable and she’s definitely not afraid of any monster or corrupt warrior that gets in her way. In fact, she’s more than happy to take them down, and relishes every battle she partakes in. She also cares very deeply for her new friends in the party after she joins them as we constantly see her offer comfort and consolation to her fellow teammates like Estelle, Karol, and Rita. She’s like the mom/big sister of the team and the skits featuring her have a lot of great dialogue between her and the rest of the team. She starts off being more distant from other people after she lost her father at a young age but as she journeys on with Yuri and his friends, she warms up to them and opens up to them more. One of the most heartwarming moments in the entire game was when she and the rest of the team was about to leave Myorzo after visiting for the first time, the elder says to Judith, “You don’t need to shoulder such a burden. Haven’t you suffered enough?” Judith replys by saying, “Thank you, Elder, but I’m not suffering anymore. If you went into the outside world, you might understand too.” I loved that part. To me, it meant that all the pain she endured since she lost her dad has now finally dissipated all because she now has a new family. And it’s always great to see people rise above despair and move forward with faith in their hearts. Plus, Judith is the most mature member of the party. Whereas Estelle and Rita are girls, Judith is a full-on woman.


Now, I know that she has large breasts and wears skimpy clothing which is why I want to briefly discuss a certain criteria that Snowy_One set up for this discussion:

1) The woman must not be overly sexualized. No breasts the size of her head here.


2) The woman must not be dressed in a scantily-clad manner or, if so, have a very good reason for doing so. Alternate costumes do not count, especially if they are not required to be worn at any point in the game.

Yeah, I really want to call bullshit on this rule he put up right here and now. I have major major issues with people claiming that a female character cannot be a positive image for women simply because they have large breasts and/or skimpy outfits and therefore are “sexualized.” As far as I’m concerned, that is slut-shaming, which I find very misogynistic. It doesn’t matter how well written a woman is, or how smart and capable she is, or even if if all her sexuality is completely under her control, as long as she is sexual in any way, shape or form, people like Snowy_One dismiss her as a bad character in any way shape or form. It’s like women should never be allowed to be comfortable and confident with their own bodies or their sexuality and should never embrace being sexy and to me that just infantilizes women. Any woman that owns her sexuality should be allowed to and scolding her for it is harmful to women and that’s why I think this criteria that Snowy_One put here should be called out on. Sexy women is often called sexist because of the claim that it just panders to male sexuality and I find that to be very misandric as it demonizes the sexual preferences of straight males. Plus, Christina Hoff Sommers put it best when she said, “Spectators are able to gaze at a woman’s beauty and also identify with her on a human level. Many men, not all of them, but many, do like images of beautiful, sexy women. Why shame them for this? Now, traditionally, women, gays, and trans-people have been policed and humiliated for their sexuality. That is wrong. Today at least in some feminist circles, it’s open season on the sexual preferences of straight males. That’s also wrong.” So this shames both men who like to look at sexy women and women who like to be sexy. Condemning a woman, fictional or real, on how she dresses is just bigoted and Snowy_One is being degrading to women by policing them on how to dress or express their sexuality. That’s my issue with this criteria here.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FzQ4QG51x4I&feature=youtu.be


Snowy_One does take women like Judith and Bayonetta and puts them into a “Positive but fail the criteria/debatable” list which I find to be damning with faint praise. As far as I’m concerned, he should take that “criteria” and throw it into the dumpster because I think it’s degrading to women. Any woman who is proud of her sexuality and appearance shouldn’t be criticized for it and any woman who does get criticized for it should shrug it all off and remain unashamed and Judith has that in spades, which is yet another reason as to why I love her so much. There. I’ve had my rant.


In fact, not only is Judith proud of her appearance and sexuality, she encourages Estelle and Rita to be proud of theirs as well. Even though they are not nearly as well-endowed as she is. And that’s truly admirable as in real life, a woman’s insecurity over her sexuality leads to her ranting about hot ladies in fiction like Judith herself.


The female protagonists of Odin Sphere: All three of these women are princesses but none of them are your typical damsel in distress. Along with the two male leads, Cornelius and Oswald, Princesses Gwendolyn, Mercedes, and Velvet help to fuel Odin Sphere’s story while also being compelling and endearing characters in their own right.

Let’s start with Gwendolyn.

8Otae.jpg

Starting off, she, while a fearsome warrior on the battlefield, was longing for her father’s approval. Keep in mind that her father is the demon lord Odin himself. So, Gwendolyn would be incredibly desperate to prove to him that she’s worthy of being one of his valkyrie warriors. After failing to please her father and earn his approval despite helping him win the war over the Crystallization Cauldron, she went out into the forest and had a brief fight with Velvet, another one of Odin’s daughters. Odin, however, intervened and got them to stop, and while Gwendolyn felt crushed over Odin showed Velvet affection despite the fact that Velvet hates Odin’s guts and blames him for her mom’s death, whereas Gwendolyn, who is loyal to Odin always gets the short shrift. When one of Odin’s generals, Brigan betrays and blackmails Odin and decides to execute Velvet, Gwendolyn in her last attempt to get Odin’s approval, rescues Velvet and kills Brigan. However, she gets punished instead, to go into a sleep, and the man who wakes her up will be her wife. Thankfully, the person who woke him up was Oswald, who despite being one of her enemies on their last encounter, cared about Gwendolyn and called Odin out on using her as a tool to get his dirty work done. And unlike the husbands of other former valkyries who are taken from their warrior positions forever, Oswald wanted Gwendolyn to remain strong and brave just like before. And karma greatly rewarded him for that too when she saved him from getting killed by an all powerful dragon who was still in its infancy, and then she saved him from Odette, queen of the netherworld. And to get into the netherworld, Gwendolyn turned the tables on Odin and used him as a tool to achieve her goal. After falling in love with and then marrying Oswald, she abandoned her desperation to gain Odin’s approval and accepted the love of someone who loves her just for being herself. And she saved the world from that exact same dragon in its adult form. Need I say more?

Odin-Sphere-Lefithrasir_2015_08-10-15_02

Then there’s Mercedes the fairy princess. When her mother died, Mercedes struggled to learn how to become the new queen of the fairies, but she kept struggling to learn how to become a queen. And for a great reason too. Her mom died before she could properly teach her about the benefits and burdens of royalty, so not only was she crowned queen when she wasn’t ready for it, she had nobody to help her get ready. Some of her fellow subjects tried to help, but she was overthrown by a jealous magistrate named Melvin, and so she rallied freedom fighters to fight back against him. When she does, she becomes more accustomed to leadership, and even takes the fight to Odin, who killed her mom. And after defeating him, (she didn’t kill him, though) she became a much more confident queen and a braver warrior as well.

odinsphere13_2.jpg

And finally, there’s Velvet. Now, I know what Snowy_One is thinking, “Velvet can’t be a positive representation of women she’s too sexualized.” Well, I hope he hears me out. Velvet, unlike the rest of the cast, is aware that there’s an evil plot that would cause the apocalypse. Throughout her story, Velvet does everything she could to figure out how to put a stop to armageddon and does everything she could to find the answers she seeks. She constantly faces hardships and adversity, but in the end, she never loses hope and keeps on going to keep finding what she needs to stop the apocalypse, even standing against her undead grandfather and attempting to thwart his schemes. And in the end, she fights the cauldron and puts a stop to its evil spell. On a side-note, she also stands up to her overly-protective twin brother Ingway whenever he starts trying to keep her away from Cornelius, whom she is in love with and vice versa. She frequently calls him out whenever he gets patronizing and even becomes rebellious towards him. Plus, she helps out a bunch of Pooka villagers.

Charlotte Aulin from Castlevania: Portrait of Ruin:

offart32.jpg

Charlotte is easily the best character in the game. She’s a powerful mage who can summon powerful spells that aid her and Jonathan in combat and in puzzle solving and she’s not afraid to help bring Jonathan back to his senses when he gets too impulsive. She’s also very smart and helps provide strategies with Jonathan being more of the muscle of the duo. But even by herself, Charlotte is deadly in battle with such spells as hurricanes, fire, ice fangs, and the like. Plus, she’s cheerful and optimistic but knows to take danger seriously and let’s face it, Jonathan wouldn’t have stopped Dracula if it weren’t for her.

Edited by deltanine

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tits.

No seriously. This is fucking stupid. How DARE a woman show off her breasts! It's not like women do that every single day out in the real world... oh yeah, they do. If you work in nightlife (like me), then you'll see lots of women getting dressed up and showing off a shitton of cleavage or skin on their legs. The only difference is these women are real while yours aren't.

A character is a good character if they are relatable to the person engaged. Whether or not you're dealing with a woman with her tits hanging out has nothing to do with it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A good number of the cast from Touhou Project.

It's pretty amazing how they have different and unique personalities in canon writing, and even though the cast is 99% female, they aren't sexualized in any way. The fact that they're female isn't the first thing that even comes to my mind. ZUN really knows how to organize a mostly-female cast.

Edited by ZM.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Does Amaterasu from Okami count? And Kachi from Sin and Punishment 2? I ask because they're not exactly human...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lightning from Final Fantasy 13.

Nova from Starcraft 2

Most of the Zelda obviously. [Twilight Princess, Skyward Sword, Windwaker, Triforce Heroes]

And of course Camilla of Fates when you look deep into her backstory and realize she's not boobilicous and pant-less with an attitude to match for nothing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Take back my statement, didn't read the rules of the original thread. Though there are tons of characters I can think of, a lot of them would be considered NPCs.

Edited by Tolvir

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My favorite video character of all time is female: Kreia from Knighs of the Old Republic II: The Sith Lords. I'm not even into Star Wars. Hell, I usually despise psuedo philosphy which is essentially her entire character, but it's actually done well and her voice actress sells it.



Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tits.

No seriously. This is fucking stupid. How DARE a woman show off her breasts! It's not like women do that every single day out in the real world... oh yeah, they do. If you work in nightlife (like me), then you'll see lots of women getting dressed up and showing off a shitton of cleavage or skin on their legs. The only difference is these women are real while yours aren't.

A character is a good character if they are relatable to the person engaged. Whether or not you're dealing with a woman with her tits hanging out has nothing to do with it.

A video game character does not have the ability to choose the clothing that they wear, because they are fictional. And the issue is not body positivity, because

  1. Most examples of female characters fit the hypersexualized mold, with starved model proportions and massive breasts, and quite often are coded white. Body positivity is inclusive of women of all shapes, sizes, and colors
  2. If you honestly believe that there is no difference in how an audience receives a character based on how they have been dressed, then you are really mistaken
  3. THEY ARE FICTIONAL CHARACTERS AND THUS HAVE NO AGENCY. They cannot choose what they wear, because they are made of the words and thoughts of the various directors, story writers, character designers, modelers, and animators.

Luckily, the new generation of game devs are on top of it.

For instance, Cadence, Melody, and Aria. Three generations of adventurers from Crypt Of The Necrodancer. Nary a cleavage window in sight, and the game goes out of its way to characterize all three as three incredibly brave women who are braving hellish odds.

Or Imani from the upcoming MOBA Gigantic. She's stylish and glamorous, but doesn't fall into the checkboxes for generic sexy character. It's actually quite amazing what you can tell about a character from their character design if you allow them to leave the bikini in the closet.

Or Athena from the Borderlands franchise, who is the closest thing the Pre-Sequel has to a protagonist. Her own moral quandaries with Jack's methods make her a surprisingly conflicted character in a dumb shooter, and her character design follows her function as a disaffected mercenary.

Or even stuff that is completely terrifying, like Killer Instinct's Hisako. Manages to be a complete turnaround from the usual booby bounce females that populate fighting games by the dozens, by instead being completely horrifying.

The point is that wanting to expand the possibility space of female designs beyond "Empowered and Sexually Liberated" is not sexist.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jim Sterling said a few years ago in the above video that when he set up a certain set of criteria for a playable female character in a video game who defies all conventional stereotypes by being actively unattractive, morally ambiguous at best, not dependent on men, and motivated by non-stereotypically feminine goals, the only one he could come up with was Vertigo, the psychotic mad goddess in the form of a dinosaur in Primal Rage.

While I disagree with this criteria on some points, I am happy to report that this claim, if it ever was true, no longer is, as there is another:

Central from Invisible Inc.

18948736389_0d1d3ff455.jpg

Central is the 68-year-old leader of Invisible Incorporated, a freelance intelligence agency pretending to work for the corporations that have taken over the world while in reality trying to gather enough information on all of them to take them all down. However, while she's fighting to end the megacapitalist oligarchy the futuristic cyberpunk world has become, she also resorts to espionage, theft, and occasionally murder to achieve her goals.

She ticks all the boxes. She's unattractive, mostly due to her being sixty eight, she's not a goodie two-shoes, by virtue of being the leader of a backstabbing covert network of spies, assassins and thieves, she's not dependent on men, as she's the leader of her organization and while she does benefit greatly from having the information broker Monst3r as a friend, she's the one carrying her organization. And finally, I can't think of anywhere on earth where taking down fascist dystopian governments is considered "stereotypically girly".

So yeah, Congrats, Klei, good on ya.

Edited by Alastor15243

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I has a bigger gripe with poorly-written characters than sexualized/scantily-clad designed ones.

Having said that, does Ellie (The Last of Us) qualify as positive and well-made?

Dunno if I'd include Jaina Proudmoore (Warcraft) though, she seems too much of a generic fantasy-genre character.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I'm unfamiliar with the previous thread, but Athena Cykes from Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney: Dual Destinies appears to qualify.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I has a bigger gripe with poorly-written characters than sexualized/scantily-clad designed ones.

Having said that, does Ellie (The Last of Us) qualify as positive and well-made?

Dunno if I'd include Jaina Proudmoore (Warcraft) though, she seems too much of a generic fantasy-genre character.

Warcraft's characters tend to be fairly generic, especially its antagonists. If I had a dollar for everytime I had heard the two words "foolish" and "mortal" together in a Blizzard game, I'd be able to retire.

If you're looking for a female character with a traditional male role, Maiev Shadowsong is probably the one. She's armored from head to toe and is a zealous, almost bloodthirsty prison warden with a vendetta, who hunts what her people think could be one of their biggest threats ever.

I've noticed that there are very few women in gaming that are not conventionally attractive; for instance, it seems that most monsters are male, and even then the few female monsters are usually portrayed in a much more human-like manner, which I find weird.

I'm unfamiliar with the previous thread, but Athena Cykes from Phoenix Wright: Ace Attorney: Dual Destinies appears to qualify.

Really? A poorly written cliché with far too many Mary Sue traits?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Really? A poorly written cliché with far too many Mary Sue traits?

Eh, the writing is all subjective. I felt her arc and personality were endearing, and she definitely has flaws. The term "Mary Sue" is thrown around so much that it has lost all meaning. It now pretty much means "any female character I dislike".

EDIT: After reading the OP of the original thread, quality of writing has nothing to do with this, so your comment was unnecessary.

To recap the qualifications:

Here is what a character needs to be on this list.

1) The character must be female or, if the game allows the player to choose, have very defined differences from the male version that are not cosmetic.

2) The character must be important to the story and/or gameplay, preferably one of the lead characters. No spamming FE characters (if only to keep the list short). Elincia, someone who is important to the plot of FE9, would be fine but Calill would not be.

3) The character must be playable. I know there are plenty of female NPC's who are positive out there (like Glados), but lets see if we can throw an extra layer on this.

As for 'positive' I am fully aware that there is no 'set' definition, and even then these lines will be blurry, but we can probably ban a few things. I am aware that there can be positive portrayals of women with one or more of these qualities (

1) The woman must not be overly sexualized. No breasts the size of her head here.

2) The woman must not be dressed in a scantily-clad manner or, if so, have a very good reason for doing so. Alternate costumes do not count, especially if they are not required to be worn at any point in the game.

3) The character MUST be independent. A woman working with a man to accomplish a goal is one thing. A woman being emotionally unstable to the point of needing a man for control and guidance or else she'll be left indecisive and confused, especially if it's because 'she a woman' is another.

4) While the woman can be captured and/or missing, rescuing her cannot be the main focus of the game. She must be more than just eye-candy.

Edited by Mango Giamatti

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Eh, the writing is all subjective. I felt her arc and personality were endearing, and she definitely has flaws. The term "Mary Sue" is thrown around so much that it has lost all meaning. It now pretty much means "any female character I dislike".

EDIT: After reading the OP of the original thread, quality of writing has nothing to do with this, so your comment was unnecessary.

To recap the qualifications:

You do realize that the very thread includes "positive" and "well-made", right? If we were to just list important female video game characters that weren't sexualized, it'd be a very boring thread not fit for a forum, since the very point of one is to discuss various opinions. You also seem to assume that I throw around words like Mary Sue easily; I don't, which is also why I said she had far too many Mary Sue traits instead of calling her one straight out.

Athena Cykes is not a good character. She's not well written, her character arc is a convoluted mess with more holes than a Swiss cheese and she appears when the series needed her the least.

[spoiler=Dual Destinies major spoilers]She goes from being a shy, sickly 11-year-old kid who was recovering from the shock of seeing her mother get murdered but after seven years "abroad" she's got two degrees, in psychology and law, and she's a pretty, popular, intelligent teenager with a magic trinket and the right tools to defeat the game's disappointing final villain.

Her relationship with Simon, something that should be on the forefront of the story, is simply not mentioned until the fifth case, even though according to her she set out to be a lawyer to set him free. Why doesn't she mention that? Why doesn't he say anything about seeing her standing there before him? What exactly was their relationship? Why was he willing to die for her (yes yes I know, a samurai and it was his teacher's kid, but we literally don't get more of a reason than that)?

Defending her in the final case also magically solves all the game's loose, underdeveloped plot threads: they find Clay's murderer, Apollo can chill, they find her mother's killer and someone Edgeworth has been chasing for a long time and now the horribly implemented "dark age of the law" is gone forever even though we hardly got to experience it for ourselves, it was just casually referenced by everyone as if they were talking about the latest Star Wars.

Speaking of the dark age of the law, the game blatantly ignores Manfred von Karma and Kristoph and just focus on Phoenix and Simon. They also "solve" it by going AGAINST what the people - you know, the ones who supposedly lost all faith in the legal system - believe; Athena is allowed to use her powers which they didn't trust. Then again, case 5-5 is by far the worst in the entire series, not least of all because it straight up copies the premise of 1-5, so I can only assume the writers gave up at that point.

I could go on for a long time, but I'll finish this with saying that not only is her character arc full of holes, but so are her powers: she can "hear" emotions but can't tell that the guy she has talked to on multiple occasions doesn't feel anything? They never address that.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Actually kind of funny that good writing isn't a specific qualification for this. I'd say Red from Transistor well written, probably one of the best silent protagonists out there, but she might not actually fit the criteria depending on whether or not you think she passes #3 of the 'positive qualities'.

Also oh man is the dark age of the law just one of the worst story-lines out there(and I apply this to Apollo Justice Ace Attorney too). Really I'm just glad it's all wrapped up now so it can be forgotten. Athena will probably benefit too since, while her role in the story, among other things, was just not well done, I did legitimately enjoy her personality and interactions with the other characters. Being out of the main story's focus for a game or two could do her some good.

Edited by DavidSW

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Tits.

I agree, Trailer in the Sky definitely needs a mention here.

No, seriously.

First, Estelle Bright is the main character and the drawing force of the story. And she's definitely positive.

She have a good socal intelligence, and may be one of the most emotionnally stable character.

Scherazade, despite what her overall appzarance could leads you to believe, is a really interresting character, and, in SC, her reaction to both Estelle and one of the antagonist each shows a new part of her personnality.

And you could also makes a point about Kloe.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Also oh man is the dark age of the law just one of the worst story-lines out there(and I apply this to Apollo Justice Ace Attorney too). Really I'm just glad it's all wrapped up now so it can be forgotten. Athena will probably benefit too since, while her role in the story, among other things, was just not well done, I did legitimately enjoy her personality and interactions with the other characters. Being out of the main story's focus for a game or two could do her some good.

I'm massively disappointed they didn't follow through on the one cool idea they had with that concept.

Simon Blackquill.

I hate that they made him turn out to be a good guy. He had been set up as essentially Hannibal Lecter in prosecutor form, a psychotic murderer who, due to how corrupt the legal system has become, is being used to try cases by a prosecutor's office that's become morally bankrupt and and so obsessed with results that they don't realize the guy's probably trying to get people he knows are innocent put in jail purely out of spite, because he's a monster and a convicted murderer. That was an absolutely amazing idea. If he were the game's true villain, and we were supposed to figure out how he committed the final crime while in police custody, that would have been the best ending case ever! Simon as a an innocent man taking the fall for Athena just isn't anywhere near as interesting as that.

Edited by Alastor15243

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I agree, Trailer in the Sky definitely needs a mention here.

No, seriously.

First, Estelle Bright is the main character and the drawing force of the story. And she's definitely positive.

She have a good socal intelligence, and may be one of the most emotionnally stable character.

Scherazade, despite what her overall appzarance could leads you to believe, is a really interresting character, and, in SC, her reaction to both Estelle and one of the antagonist each shows a new part of her personnality.

And you could also makes a point about Kloe.

Back in the original thread, I mentioned that Estelle half-qualifies. Her bracer training totally does, because she's being awesome. The other half of her story is her relationship with Joshua, which throws her out based on Snowy's qualifications.

Kloe's a much better fit IMO, and Trails FC cemented it.

Speaking of Trails, I forgot about Instructor Sara (forgot how to spell her last name). Even if they play her love of alcohol up a little too much.

And yes she totally counts since she's playable during one of the chapters, albeit for a short time

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

[spoiler=Ace Attorney 5]I liked Simon the way he was... Innocent to the act of murder but not harmless. I think given the chance at the time, Simon would have really murdered his mentor's killer. His face says everything about him, with dark marks under his eyes because he cries every night wondering if he will ever uncover the truth.

As for Athena, I like her as a character who overcomes her fears. It's just her plan to prove Simon's innocence that doesn't really make a lot of sense. I think the game would have been better off without the Tenma village case, which felt like 100% filler in a game where "the dark age of the Law" doesn't acknowledge the events of the other AA games. AA5 leaves all the mysteries from AA4 completely wide open and that bugs me a ton. Doesn't even look like AA6 will tackle any existing plot threads either.

Personally my top pick for strong female characters would be Alphys from Undertale. She doesn't start off strong. In fact, she's downright annoying, socially awkward and unhelpful.

[spoiler=Undertale]In the true ending where you finally get her to open up to you and reveal why she's always so down on herself, you realise what a horrifying burden she's shouldered alone for so long. And then she accepts that she needs to face her fears. She doesn't fear the Amalgamates, she only fears that the families she gave hope to would turn on her when they find out her experiments went wrong. In the end, she is far more confident in herself, no longer ashamed and no longer hiding from the rest of the world. And there as so many things she has done to make others happy too. She built Mettaton's dream body. She introduced Undyne to anime. She does her best when she can. Her arc is what really sold me on Undertale being one of the best games I've ever played.

Edited by Samias

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

You do realize that the very thread includes "positive" and "well-made", right? If we were to just list important female video game characters that weren't sexualized, it'd be a very boring thread not fit for a forum, since the very point of one is to discuss various opinions. You also seem to assume that I throw around words like Mary Sue easily; I don't, which is also why I said she had far too many Mary Sue traits instead of calling her one straight out.

Athena Cykes is not a good character. She's not well written, her character arc is a convoluted mess with more holes than a Swiss cheese and she appears when the series needed her the least.

[spoiler=Dual Destinies major spoilers]She goes from being a shy, sickly 11-year-old kid who was recovering from the shock of seeing her mother get murdered but after seven years "abroad" she's got two degrees, in psychology and law, and she's a pretty, popular, intelligent teenager with a magic trinket and the right tools to defeat the game's disappointing final villain.

Her relationship with Simon, something that should be on the forefront of the story, is simply not mentioned until the fifth case, even though according to her she set out to be a lawyer to set him free. Why doesn't she mention that? Why doesn't he say anything about seeing her standing there before him? What exactly was their relationship? Why was he willing to die for her (yes yes I know, a samurai and it was his teacher's kid, but we literally don't get more of a reason than that)?

Defending her in the final case also magically solves all the game's loose, underdeveloped plot threads: they find Clay's murderer, Apollo can chill, they find her mother's killer and someone Edgeworth has been chasing for a long time and now the horribly implemented "dark age of the law" is gone forever even though we hardly got to experience it for ourselves, it was just casually referenced by everyone as if they were talking about the latest Star Wars.

Speaking of the dark age of the law, the game blatantly ignores Manfred von Karma and Kristoph and just focus on Phoenix and Simon. They also "solve" it by going AGAINST what the people - you know, the ones who supposedly lost all faith in the legal system - believe; Athena is allowed to use her powers which they didn't trust. Then again, case 5-5 is by far the worst in the entire series, not least of all because it straight up copies the premise of 1-5, so I can only assume the writers gave up at that point.

I could go on for a long time, but I'll finish this with saying that not only is her character arc full of holes, but so are her powers: she can "hear" emotions but can't tell that the guy she has talked to on multiple occasions doesn't feel anything? They never address that.

I assumed you throw around the term "Mary Sue" too easily, because you threw it around too easily. History time: "Mary Sue" was originally a term used to identify self-insert characters in fanfiction without any flaws. Athena is neither a self-insert character, nor is flawless (she suffers a trail-threatening panic attack merely ten minutes into the game, for starters). In the spoiler text, you just cherry-picked character traits. If you give that arbitrary treatment to any character in any form of fiction, the result would be that every single protagonist is a "Mary Sue". Thus it's a meaningless term.

[spoiler=Dual Destinies, and just plot holes in general] Question: if a plot has holes in it, why does that automatically make it bad? The logical flow of a plot is only one ingredient in what makes it good. They didn't reveal the relationship until the last case, so that they could have a point of high suspense and drama at the end. The reveal raises the stakes, and good stories have the highest stakes in the climax. Furthermore, there was no point in the earlier cases where they HAD TO reveal their relationship. Revealing it earlier would've just muddled those cases, resulting in a poorer story.

I'm not sure how the last case tying up all plot points is a criticism (plots shouldn't have loose plot points in the end), and the dark age of the law crap is poorly done. But neither of those matter, for those are criticisms of AA5's plot as a whole, not Athena's arc.

Oh, and the thing about her not identifying the Phantom earlier: she was never in a situation where she had to analyze Fulbright's emotions, so it's a reasonable that she wouldn't know about his condition until the end.

She's still a well-developed, positive example of a female character in fiction, which is still important.

Edited by Mango Giamatti

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Athena's totally fine. Nothing about how she's written contradicts what Ace Attorney stands for. Want to argue that her being a lawyer at 18 is unrealistic? von Karma already ticked that box, and even with a master prosecutor father that doesn't give her magical bar exam powers. Her hearing ability is from the same series with spirit powers that detect lies and a bracelet that tenses up when someone's giving off a nervous tell.

Obviously she's no Maya, but no one is. Not even Pearl was as good as Maya, and Ema was just a little below her. Athena is great. DD is great. why should I care what you say

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I assumed you throw around the term "Mary Sue" too easily, because you threw it around too easily. History time: "Mary Sue" was originally a term used to identify self-insert characters in fanfiction without any flaws. Athena is neither a self-insert character, nor is flawless (she suffers a trail-threatening panic attack merely ten minutes into the game, for starters). In the spoiler text, you just cherry-picked character traits. If you give that arbitrary treatment to any character in any form of fiction, the result would be that every single protagonist is a "Mary Sue". Thus it's a meaningless term.

[spoiler=Dual Destinies, and just plot holes in general] Question: if a plot has holes in it, why does that automatically make it bad? The logical flow of a plot is only one ingredient in what makes it good. They didn't reveal the relationship until the last case, so that they could have a point of high suspense and drama at the end. The reveal raises the stakes, and good stories have the highest stakes in the climax. Furthermore, there was no point in the earlier cases where they HAD TO reveal their relationship. Revealing it earlier would've just muddled those cases, resulting in a poorer story.

I'm not sure how the last case tying up all plot points is a criticism (plots shouldn't have loose plot points in the end), and the dark age of the law crap is poorly done. But neither of those matter, for those are criticisms of AA5's plot as a whole, not Athena's arc.

Oh, and the thing about her not identifying the Phantom earlier: she was never in a situation where she had to analyze Fulbright's emotions, so it's a reasonable that she wouldn't know about his condition until the end.

She's still a well-developed, positive example of a female character in fiction, which is still important.

You seem rather defensive and condescending about this, which makes it harder for me to just have a proper discussion with you. First of all, I never called her a Mary Sue, I said she had too many Mary Sue traits, which is a very big difference. Also, words and terminology change definition and meaning all the time, and while you're right about the ORIGINS of the definition of a Mary Sue, the term encompasses so much more now than it did then.

Now you're the one who's cherry picking. Why should a visual novel that focuses on story have a coherent narrative? Well, why should a strategy game like Fire Emblem contain strategy since it's only one of the elements that makes it good? That's a pointless statement that means nothing.

I'm not even following your logic; why is artificially introducing tension at the expense of character development a good thing? If the writers had just given us Athena's goal from the get-go, she and Simon could've interacted far more throughout the story - something that they hardly do - which is important because the entire plot rides on it.

Again, you don't even seem to be reading what I'm writing; the subplots are all conveniently solved by saving her, rather than being connected to other things. And you're quite right, I don't like loose plot threads either, which is exactly why Athena's inclusion in the game makes no sense since all the subplots revolving around Apollo were ignored in favor of her.

And again, you're guessing. The fact remains that they don't explain enough about how that thing works; it's yet another of the many holes that surrounds her character.

Athena is a poorly implemented, horribly written character that definitely shouldn't be compared to protagonists with actual depth and coherency.

Athena's totally fine. Nothing about how she's written contradicts what Ace Attorney stands for. Want to argue that her being a lawyer at 18 is unrealistic? von Karma already ticked that box, and even with a master prosecutor father that doesn't give her magical bar exam powers. Her hearing ability is from the same series with spirit powers that detect lies and a bracelet that tenses up when someone's giving off a nervous tell.

Obviously she's no Maya, but no one is. Not even Pearl was as good as Maya, and Ema was just a little below her. Athena is great. DD is great. why should I care what you say

You seem to be under the impression that I'm fine with the special powers in Ace Attorney in general, or that I don't mind Franzika's age. You'd be wrong, because I'm not. However, unlike the others, Athena's backstory is filled with holes during a seven year period that just obliterates any suspense of disbelief. I also mentioned HOW Athena's powers are used and why it goes against what the story is trying to accomplish.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...