Does anyone else get irritated by the Nohr story? *possible spoilers*

[NekoKnight]

Wouldn't they get killed if they disobey the king's orders though?

I drop my trousers and piss on the King

The excuse is accurate though, as Iago and Hans are not afraid to break out the 'Garon's orders' whenever the protagonists suggest maybe not committing a war crime. Not to mention that Gooron would probably execute someone if they made his tea with one lump of sugar instead of two for daring to disobey the king's orders.

But it's completely contrary to what Fire Emblem is about. We get people defecting from bad groups all the time but most Nohrian characters just go along with it. Where are the Heaths and Princess Guiniveres? The Duessels and Natashas? People in positions of power and people with no power at all have abandoned their factions to side with moral causes. Marx is in a better position than most to rebel but he chooses to obey.

Here's a quote from Duessel, aka the man Marx should have been:

"Your Majesty, you know that I will gladly lay down my life for an honorable cause! But these orders- and all of our recent actions- they are not just! If I saw any way in which this invasion protected Grado, I would hold my tongue. But now, Renais is left ungoverned to drown in chaos, and we gain nothing! Why do you wage this war? What is it you hope to achieve? You've sent our men to fight and die for nothing! This isn't war- it's murder!"

Edited February 6, 2016 by NekoKnight

[Time the Crestfallen]

But it's completely contrary to what Fire Emblem is about. We get people defecting from bad groups all the time but most Nohrian characters just go along with it. Where are the Heaths and Princess Guiniveres? The Duessels and Natashas? People in positions of power and people with no power at all have abandoned their factions to side with moral causes. Marx is in a better position than most to rebel but he chooses to obey.

Apart from it being frustrating to be the lapdogs of a bunch of mustache twirlers, it's also uninteresting. The dialogue goes:

Kamui: I don't want to do the dickish thing.

Marx: You must do the dickish thing, because Father commands it.

Kamui: Okay...

Rinse and repeat but with different characters. Where is that internal reform we were promised?

In the same place they put the themes of Loyalty vs Blood and Family would be my guess.

While I choose to believe that IS didn't intend for Nohr to be the evil route, it seems like they were definitely trying to make Nohr more morally ambiguous and just failed to do so. I could forgive both Corrin and co's inaction as well as Nohr family's loyalty to Garon if only the actions they were ordered to do were more pragmatic i.e. take no prisoners because the vast majority of them were ninjas and they could slip away very easily, but what we have in game just makes them all look awful by association.

[solrocknroll]

I actually like Xander and Corrin's conduct in Conquest.

I think a lot of people here have difficulty realizing just how difficult it could be to confront a parent that they trusted. Xander knows that it's wrong, but can't really do anything. I see comparisons to Duessel (who I don't like), but Xander is basically Camus with different reasoning.

I also don't find "take no prisoners" that ridiculous. Hoshido and Nohr are opposing nations. Conflicts are bound to arise. Nohr is only the bad side because Garon and friends are there. I would assume that actually taking prisoners instead of killing anyone in your way is less efficient in times of war. Nohr obviously doesn't care about Hoshido's well being, and why should they tbh?

[Time the Crestfallen]

I actually like Xander and Corrin's conduct in Conquest.

I think a lot of people here have difficulty realizing just how difficult it could be to confront a parent that they trusted. Xander knows that it's wrong, but can't really do anything. I see comparisons to Duessel (who I don't like), but Xander is basically Camus with different reasoning.

I also don't find "take no prisoners" that ridiculous. Hoshido and Nohr are opposing nations. Conflicts are bound to arise. Nohr is only the bad side because Garon and friends are there. I would assume that actually taking prisoners instead of killing anyone in your way is less efficient in times of war. Nohr obviously doesn't care about Hoshido's well being, and why should they tbh?

It's a war crime to go into a battle with a no quarter mentality and to continue killing after the enemy has surrendered, both of which are things that happen in Conquest. Multiple times!

[NekoKnight]

I think a lot of people here have difficulty realizing just how difficult it could be to confront a parent that they trusted. Xander knows that it's wrong, but can't really do anything. I see comparisons to Duessel (who I don't like), but Xander is basically Camus with different reasoning.

Sacred Stones also did a much better job of explaining why people respect and love Emperor Vigarde even if they found his behavior suspicious or increasingly unethical. Garon has almost nothing to earn the adoration or respect of his children.

[solrocknroll]

Sacred Stones also did a much better job of explaining why people respect and love Emperor Vigarde even if they found his behavior suspicious or increasingly unethical. Garon has almost nothing to earn the adoration or respect of his children.

Yes, but he's their father. For some people, relativity is enough. Haven't you seen people who will defend their family member even after they've done something terrible? The same logic applies here.

also I dislike Sacred Stones so there's that

[Sunwoo]

also I dislike Sacred Stones so there's that

Question: why should we care about whether you liked or disliked Sacred Stones like it holds water and is some factual basis of any kind?

[RedRob]

I thought SlimeGaron was using the fact that Nohr was lacking food as an excuse to hide behind for their invasion of the bountiful land of Hoshido. So it could be that the characters are also helping the invasion to help their country. Though SlimeGaron is blatantly stupidly evil to the point it's hard to believe he be able to control the masses even with propaganda. So I find it more likely that the writers were either complete morons, or it's cultural posturing, which I noticed in small doses in Japanese media before. (Ex. Backstory of Heavy Object, Japan's the nation who creates the titular superweapon, Azure Striker Gunvolt: Fleeting Memories, talks about how psychics destroyed the world except for a "island nation in Asia", Gate, an anime based off a story written by right-wing nationalist, ) Though the question is whether this trend is all in my head, or if Japan is getting a swelled head.(Probably the former) But yeah, it's really suspicious how the story centered on a kingdom based off a real-life foreign nation was the one with the most problems.

[NekoKnight]

I thought SlimeGaron was using the fact that Nohr was lacking food as an excuse to hide behind for their invasion of the bountiful land of Hoshido. So it could be that the characters are also helping the invasion to help their country. Though SlimeGaron is blatantly stupidly evil to the point it's hard to believe he be able to control the masses even with propaganda. So I find it more likely that the writers were either complete morons, or it's cultural posturing, which I noticed in small doses in Japanese media before. (Ex. Backstory of Heavy Object, Japan's the nation who creates the titular superweapon, Azure Striker Gunvolt: Fleeting Memories, talks about how psychics destroyed the world except for a "island nation in Asia", Gate, an anime based off a story written by right-wing nationalist, ) Though the question is whether this trend is all in my head, or if Japan is getting a swelled head.(Probably the former) But yeah, it's really suspicious how the story centered on a kingdom based off a real-life foreign nation was the one with the most problems.

I'm not too bothered by the cultural posturing to be honest. While Hoshido is very "Japanese" in its aesthetics, Nohr is too diverse in its European inspirations to really pin them on any one group of people. It's all fantasy to me.

I'm more concerned with how that moral black and white split dulls the narrative.

[PuffPuff]

In order:

Ryouma explains that Mikoto can protect Hoshido with a magical barrier that demoralizes invading troops. I don't think this makes any sense, but it's there, and that's the explanation.

Garon agrees with Anankos because the molten wax monster who is actually Garon's imposter serves Anankos, right?

Garon wants the Ice Tribe village destroyed because they're trying to rebel.

It is heavily implied that it was Macbeth who poisoned Elise. He and Garon even scheme about making Kamui suffer before they receive orders to go to Machara and this scene kicks in.

I have no idea.

Because he wanted to exact vengeance on whats-his-face, save Kagerou and had slim chances to succeed on his job without Kamui's aid. Not that he joins them, though. Both are just facing the same enemy while not minding each other's business.

Uh, it's explained by the game that the Black Fortress is the remains of a dragon. That sounds strange, but that's it. It's just a deadly place to trap Kamui in.

I suppose.

Iago supposedly wanted to have the kingdom for himself.

Thanking him for his help anyway. Ninjas have a code of honor after all!

Doing that path is telling all of Nohr that he/she hates his/her family.

While 'subjugate' was the word used, but I'm pretty sure he was intending for Kamui to have to subjugate them violently as part of his mission to make Kamui cry. Luckily (or unluckily, considering the subject matter), Garon forgot about Kamui's protagonist powers and they managed to do it without killing anyone. The Ice Tribe gets wrecked in Birthright though; Clear and a lot of soldiers die and Flora is told that if she doesn't attempt to kill Kamui, he'll wipe them all out.

Always bad to see Felicia upset over the deal. :(

Well, here's one way that I came up with to make it a bit better.

In the chapter after making your choice, Corrin comes back to Nohr and Garon orders them on that suicide mission. Corrin, after being a unknowing part to kill Mikoto and surviving that explosion combined with how they have been treated by Garon throughout their lives, has had enough of his shit, draws out Yato, and challenges Garon to try and kill them now rather than having someone else do it.

The Nohr siblings would be shocked at this blatant rebellion and Garon pissed at this display. Corrin explains why they are doing this: That they did not appreciate being made a weapon to kill their mother, that though they love the Nohr siblings and did return to Nohr out of love for them, they want revenge for how Garon has treated them and their mother's death. They also state that unlike Xander, they do not hold out hope that Garon would return to normal when Hoshido is conquered, and if that were the case Garon must still answer for his crimes. Corrin then says that they know what they are doing is suicidal, but if this shall be the end for them, then they are taking Garon with them.

It would then lead to a duel between Corrin and Garon, with the Nohr siblings imploring them to stop, Garon threatening them to stay out of the duel or they will die, and Corrin bringing up all of the happy times they've had with the Nohr siblings while also appealing to their hearts and minds about the just cause of this little rebellion.

The duel lasts until Corrin can no longer fight, and before Garon strikes the final blow, Camilla stands between them and blocks the blow while Elise heals Corrin. Xander and Leo are now at a loss for words as the sisters take Corrin out of the palace with their retainers helping them as well. Garon denounces them as traitors, calls for his guards to kill them only for them to be killed by Kaze who had just arrived to help Corrin. The chapter would then end with Corrin, the sisters and their retainers, and Kaze out of the palace and in the wilderness. After getting over the shock of what happened, Corrin the tells them that there is no turning back now; now is the time to gather allies and power and overthrow Garon before his invasion of Hoshido can begin in earnest.

The rest of the game would deal with Corrin and company launching a guerilla rebellion against Nohr, gathering allies, and trying to convince the brothers to join them.

Not yet sure on how to work Hoshido into that scenario.

Finding out that he only gave Corrin that sword meanting to kill mother because her barrier is all that's preventing him from unleasing his destruction.

I liked Kamui's reasoning for joining Nohr in chapter 6, but you are constantly just following Garon's orders the whole campaign instead of trying to find a peaceful compromise between two nations or investigate the truth/Garon's suspicious behaviour and reason for the war. When Kamui does discover that the king is a fake (only by pure coincidence because you antecedently spot Aqua and wonder into the invisible kingdom) Kamui does nothing until the last few chapters where a lot of damage is done to Hoshido. Kamui should have just told his siblings there and then using Aqua's song as evidence that Garon is not himself and made a plan together instead of waiting till they destroyed Hoshido's military power and nearly killing all of Kamui's Hoshido siblings.

It wasn't the right time!

He already owned half the capitol. If he pledged an attack then...those Hoshidos that he's held prisoner would all be dead. Turning into slime was the correct time since he no longer became himself anymore. He's like Kid Buu's conciousness exactly turning completely demonic.

My opinion may not be 100% accurate since its easy to get soured when you read things on the internet, instead of experiencing something yourself, but my irritation doesn't come from the story being bad, but rather the story being a complete waste. I can deal with contrived and stupid things like the crystal ball plotpoint as long as it leads to interesting stuff later on. Bravely Default for example had a story filled with idiots and bad descisions, but I still grealty enjoyed it. I don't get that impression with Conquest yet.

Conquest has one major problem that soured me on the story a bit. Garon is such a black hole villain that he manages to suck everything interesting out of the story completely. Why do the Nohr siblings fight? Because daddy wants. Why does Nohr invade? Because Garon wants it. From what i've read I never got the impression that either the Nohr siblings or Nohr itself are allowed to have any sort of stance on the war. They fight because of Garon and his two mustache twirling buddies.

There's some lip service to Nohr being dirt poor, but Garon and the story doesn't really seem to use it as a motivational tool for either the siblings or his country. Leon's a pretty pragmatic guy so could't he at least be somewhat on board because Nohr could use the spoils of war, even if its through gritted teeth? Xander desperately needs some non daddy related stance for supporting the war as well.

Anyway some nuance would be nice. I'm fine Hoshido being more in the right, but at the very least I want Nohr to be wrong with some motivation behind their actions, instead of just being wrong

He's already ruling Nohr with an iron fist and he's brainwashed them. They are his mindslaves. They all break the spell the moment that he turns into slime. =]

I think giving them ideological or pragmatic reasons would have made them more sympathetic, not less. When they support a clearly evil ruler for no other reason than "Daddy's orders", they seem like really scummy people regardless of how pleasant or moral they are on a personal level. Marx remains one of my most disliked characters in Fire Emblem because he's portrayed as a principled character but he doesn't fight for moral causes or pragmatic reasons. All the drama and tragedy related to him is his own damn fault.

Let's look at some other characters who suffer from this lack of pragmatic or ideological cause. I mentioned Harold before but how about the Awakening trio? These are people who we fought with to save the world in Awakening but now they're supporting a war of belligerence because...their masters ordered it? If anything, they should be fighting for Hoshido.

Well...it serves him right for what he did.

He should have tried to listen to Corrin when he had the chance in Ch6. But Garon's mindspell was too much for him that he was totally deaf with Corrin's pleas.

In the same place they put the themes of Loyalty vs Blood and Family would be my guess.

While I choose to believe that IS didn't intend for Nohr to be the evil route, it seems like they were definitely trying to make Nohr more morally ambiguous and just failed to do so. I could forgive both Corrin and co's inaction as well as Nohr family's loyalty to Garon if only the actions they were ordered to do were more pragmatic i.e. take no prisoners because the vast majority of them were ninjas and they could slip away very easily, but what we have in game just makes them all look awful by association.

Nohrians were darklords and ninjas. Hoshido was the art of the sword Samurai. They never were allied nations in Dragonball and Fire Emblem. For the first time in history on the revelations path, they actually work together to find the root of the problems.

I actually like Xander and Corrin's conduct in Conquest.

I think a lot of people here have difficulty realizing just how difficult it could be to confront a parent that they trusted. Xander knows that it's wrong, but can't really do anything. I see comparisons to Duessel (who I don't like), but Xander is basically Camus with different reasoning.

I also don't find "take no prisoners" that ridiculous. Hoshido and Nohr are opposing nations. Conflicts are bound to arise. Nohr is only the bad side because Garon and friends are there. I would assume that actually taking prisoners instead of killing anyone in your way is less efficient in times of war. Nohr obviously doesn't care about Hoshido's well being, and why should they tbh?

Didn't stop Camus from doing the same thing.

Exactly.

Upon the ending they've even made peace with Sakura and Hinoka who visited them because Corrin spared their lives showing them that Nohr are not complete heartless monsters minus Garon of course.

[arvilino]

But what does "at war" mean if Nohrians can't enter Hoshido? Unless Hoshido is leading armies into Nohr, it's hard to describe their conflict an open war. The shocked reaction of the Hoshidans at the infinite chasm in chapter 3 seems to indicate that they don't regularly come into contact with Nohrian soldiers.

What it means is at the very least the war started before the game and on-going. Chapter 3 the Hoshido forces were surprised that the Nohr were showing up around a specifically agreed non-aggression area. Otherwise Hanz/Ganz attack on the Hoshido solider at the start of Chapter 3 would have triggered/escalated the war.

I thought SlimeGaron was using the fact that Nohr was lacking food as an excuse to hide behind for their invasion of the bountiful land of Hoshido. So it could be that the characters are also helping the invasion to help their country. Though SlimeGaron is blatantly stupidly evil to the point it's hard to believe he be able to control the masses even with propaganda. So I find it more likely that the writers were either complete morons, or it's cultural posturing, which I noticed in small doses in Japanese media before. (Ex. Backstory of Heavy Object, Japan's the nation who creates the titular superweapon, Azure Striker Gunvolt: Fleeting Memories, talks about how psychics destroyed the world except for a "island nation in Asia", Gate, an anime based off a story written by right-wing nationalist, ) Though the question is whether this trend is all in my head, or if Japan is getting a swelled head.(Probably the former) But yeah, it's really suspicious how the story centered on a kingdom based off a real-life foreign nation was the one with the most problems.

The events that occur before the start of the game are the reason Nohr had assasinated Hoshido's king and stolen Corrin, Hoshido had kidnapped Azura and Shenmei had disappeared during the conflict. Nohr using Fuuma to strike at Hoshido,etc. It really didn't matter what culture either was.

Garon didn't really need an excuse to invade Hoshido by the time it happens in-game because both sides had launched out attacks on each other, kidnapped royalty, etc. Hoshido were already Nohr's mortal enemies regardless of how the conflict started or who was responsible for what.

Edited February 6, 2016 by arvilino

[BruceLee]

Not being on even terms with another nation doesn't excuse you for invading it and slaughtering it's people....

Edited February 6, 2016 by BruceLee

[Water Mage]

You would be shocked at how easy it is for countries to find an excuse to attack another.

[Fyras4]

Not being on even terms with another nation doesn't excuse you for invading it and slaughtering it's people....

I'm not sure it matters at all, though.

Who's in the right or in the wrong, I mean...people have started wars for the sake of conquest or territory...or just because they get bored of their rulers.

[BruceLee]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. What i don't like is how the game tries to make us see the invaders as good people.

[Water Mage]

I'm not saying it doesn't happen. What i don't like is how the game tries to make us see the invaders as good people.

While I can't say anything about the royal family, most of the Nohr soldiers are just people doing their job, either because they are loyal to their lords, like Niles and Effie, or because they have mouths to feed like Charlotte and Benny.

Edited February 6, 2016 by Water Mage

[BruceLee]

While I can't say anything about the royal family, most of the Nohr soldiers are just people doing their job, either because they are loyal to their lords, like Niles and Effie, or because they have mouths to feed like Charlotte and Benny.

Your right, i was actually referring to the protagonists tho. Xander being the heart of the problem.

You can't blame a simple soldier because they aren't in a position to do anything about it.

Edited February 6, 2016 by BruceLee

[Fyras4]

Your right, i was actually referring to the protagonists tho. Xander being the heart of the problem.

Well...apart from the whole invasion thing...Xander and his siblings appear to be good people.

Edited February 6, 2016 by Fyras4

[BruceLee]

Well...apart from the whole invasion thing...Xander and his siblings appear to be good people.

The whole invasion thing is kind of a big deal tho.

[WhatAJollyGoodFellow]

Nohr as a really bad story, like the whole Kamui thinking it was the "only way to save the future" completely pushes any blame off of him, and apparently he's not doing anything wrong because "it was the only way".

Also the absolute luck Kamui gets makes no sense. The plot devices were terrible. And Kamui "saving people" or "spareing an entire army is stupid and unsensical.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Sorry for going off-topic a little, but our hopes of the localisation doing anything major to try and fix the story have been dashed.

On the gameXplain Revelation stream, Azura mentions the Valla curse. You know, the one that kills you if you mention Valla outside of it.

[Water Mage]

Sorry for going off-topic a little, but our hopes of the localisation doing anything major to try and fix the story have been dashed.

On the gameXplain Revelation stream, Azura mentions the Valla curse. You know, the one that kills you if you mention Valla outside of it.

To be fair, it's not like NoA was allowed to change the entire story.

There were probably things that NoJ asked to keep intact.

We don't know how NoJ feels about the story

[RedRob]

Sorry for going off-topic a little, but our hopes of the localisation doing anything major to try and fix the story have been dashed.

On the gameXplain Revelation stream, Azura mentions the Valla curse. You know, the one that kills you if you mention Valla outside of it.

The story would had probably required several rewrites to get around that mess of a plot device. But there's still a chance the morality will be a bit more grey and grey in the localization.

[RJWalker]

Xander's stupidity is what it kills it for me. There's only so much bullshit I can take.

[Time the Crestfallen]

To be fair, it's not like NoA was allowed to change the entire story.

There were probably things that NoJ asked to keep intact.

We don't know how NoJ feels about the story

Definitely true, and I never said they would. However, I do feel sorry for everyone who was hoping that NoA would try and do something about that mess of a plot device.