Least Favorite Characters?

[Camilla]

As of now (after experiencing both games), I would say my dislike list is the following:

Nohr characters: Selena (Severa was my most hated FE character ever, and I still hate her as Selena), Nyx, Ophelia, and Peri (I don't dislike her nearly as much as the other three).

Hoshido characters: Takumi (even after playing Birthright I still think that he is a little shit), Rhajat, Caeldori, and Subaki.

I don't like Kaden very much either. He's kind of annoying.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Camilla

[Katryn]

Xander does seem to have a (potentially shifting) code of honor that he claims to follow, but that is not the same as being honorable. When someone else tells you that you are honorable, it means your actions have met their standards. When you tell someone you have a code of honor, you express your own standards and ideals by explaining the rules of that code (most often *a* rule of it.) I think that Xander is the sort of character that some people are going to love and some are going to hate on a personal level. But all evidence I've seen points to him being up shit creek without a paddle in any kind of fact-based debate. (I am saying this as someone who still hopes to like the character when I get to Conquest. We shall see.)

Speaking of the honor or lack of it in that opening scene where the two princes fight, who is Xander hacking down on his way to meet Ryoma? For some reason I've always felt that Ryoma is leaping past his people while Xander is cutting his out of the way like a bunch of pawns. (I am legally blind. Am I seeing wrong? Are they Hoshidan soldiers?) Either way it still leaves Xander in an inferior light, but doing that to the enemy is definitely better than doing it to his own people (WTF?).

Finally, I want to point out that giving in-game information to back up a point or theory is crucial and cannot be discouraged in a discussion of this nature. The evidence that we are given in the game is the core of what our debates must rely upon if we are going to base our discussion in anything that has any factual grounds. Without that, it's *purely* my opinion vs. your opinion, and that leaves no room for an intelligent discussion. No one has a right to think that someone's opinion is lesser than another's, even if they do not share the opinion being expressed. Taking the facts of the game and adding our opinions via interpretation is what makes a discussion unique; without varying view points we would have nothing to talk about.

But then, aside from Garon I don't think I really "hate" anyone I've seen (...now that I like that's putting it mildly Takumi... *laughs*) so far. I'm far more prone to indifference or disinterest. Good examples of this are Azama, Setsuna, and Hayato. I just don't have time / patience / desire to work on them. I may do that another time, but for now they are kinda borderline invisible.

[jankmaster98]

Meh, I liked Xander well enough, the Nohr siblings in general have had to deal with a lot more early life being crap than the Hoshido siblings. Not to say that gives them a pass, but it still made me want them to have a happier ending to all their hardships.

Least Favorite Characters though? Hm... I'm gonna have to say Iago. The staff savant thing is perhaps the most annoying thing in the game plus his roadblocking in the conquest plot.

[Meh]

Speaking of the honor or lack of it in that opening scene where the two princes fight, who is Xander hacking down on his way to meet Ryoma? For some reason I've always felt that Ryoma is leaping past his people while Xander is cutting his out of the way like a bunch of pawns. (I am legally blind. Am I seeing wrong? Are they Hoshidan soldiers?) Either way it still leaves Xander in an inferior light, but doing that to the enemy is definitely better than doing it to his own people (WTF?).

Xander cuts down a couple of Hoshidans on his way to Ryouma after accepting his challenge, Ryouma leaps over and cuts down a bunch of Nohrians before talking to/challenging Xander

Anyway, least favorite for me? Peri. Cannot stand her. Cannot stand her personality and benched her.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Meh

[Michelaar]

I found my new enemy. Peri. What a B*tch. She cuts people down, and dances in their blood (WTF?)

[Thane]

Thane

it was a rhetorical question, i assume everyone has played Conquest my "attitude" is someone trying to take a neutral stance until guys like you and Azure push me into a corner to make me look biased but i tell those people and you, refer to my original comment, and congratulations on beating all 3 games months ago, it's good to know your ego talks for you, and Xander being directly responsible? don't make me laugh, it was Garon who set the events in motion and calling him a coward. why? so you, like every other biased person, thinks Xander should've rebelled or fought Garon.

need i remind you Azura died in order for Garon to be weakened and be able to be defeated

about Takumi wanting mass genocide of Nohrians, he grew up with Azura and doesn't trust her for having Nohrian blood, thats reason enough its not until he sees how bad Nohr is that he sort of changes.

and Azure, he seems pretty consistent to me, not wanting unarmed soldiers to be killed seems pretty honorable to me, hell in the first cinematic during the prologue he accepts Ryoma's duel, another sign of both honor and Nobility, and before you go on about getting help from his siblings the other Hosidan Siblings arrive to and about Garon's power, theres a thing called game play vs story. i can beat SSG Goku as Hercule in the game but in the story Hercule would get destroyed and as for Garon i refer you to my earlier spoiler.

Finally i don't think Conquest was trying to make Xander or Corrin the hero, Conquest makes them the Anti-heroes or even tragic heroes and before anyone comments on Corrin being happy during the endings, i say the following.

Don't tell me the events of the game, don't tell me what the game tells you or makes obvious to you, i want to argue with someone who infers, assumes, reads in between the lines, and analyzes the game instead of doing what these 2 did and just re-tell me the game. so Goodnight everyone i'm outta here i'm sorry for having an and defending the opinions of others and i apologize if i offended.

To start off, if you begin writing such a lengthy response with ad hominems, then you're likely not to be taken seriously; where did my "ego" come in? I was just surprised that since we've talked about Xander's characterization in all three paths that someone would come in and ask me if I hadn't played all versions. When you just ignore pages worth of debate just to insert your own opinion which has been discussed multiple times, then of course people are going to be annoyed at having to explain everything all over again.

Also, can you tell me what I'm biased against? I criticize any and all story flaws and have been doing that for months; Xander is not getting any special treatment, and neither is any other character or flaw. If anything the ones I've talked about the most are Corrin, Azura and Garon for various reasons.

Yes, me and a lot of other people think Xander should've rebelled. Why? Because he's presented as an honorable man who's aware that what his father is doing is wrong, yet he keeps following him, wallowing in self pity that he was born a crown prince and never had a choice. It makes him come across as both weak and incredibly self-serving; so long as he lives he can put up with his father. Also, what does Azura have anything to do with Xander? If anything

her death was brushed aside very quickly and only there to tell the player to play Revelations, which is the canon path.

Takumi doesn't want "mass genocide", what on earth are you talking about? He's biased against Nohrians because all he knows about them is that they're warmongers and double-crossers who killed his father and later his mother and a lot of civilians with the indirect help from Corrin. How do you tink anyone would react?

About Xander's nobility and consistency, I fail to see where you're from yet again. [spoiler=Birthright spoilers]He goes on about what's best for the country yet still serves Garon whom he knows is a monster. He challenges Corrin to a duel and telling them not to hold back yet does so himself after he kills Elise, failing to honor her last wish because of his own selfishness. He is too afraid to stand up to Iago and Hans even though we've got no proof that doing so would anger Garon since Garon values Xander's strength much more.

What are you talking about? The game blatantly tries to make Corrin and Xander look like heroes; Corrin and his army are given the ability to win entire battles without killing anyone and the narrative tries to make it look like what Corrin is doing is the fastest way to end the war and brushes the consequences under the rug to make him look heroic. If anything, Takumi is the one who's being portrayed as being in the wrong. And of course, the most important part of all in making Corrin look like a hero which he clearly isn't: [spoiler=Conquest finale spoiler]he's forgiven by everyone in the afterlife even though he was personally responsible for their deaths; in Takumi's case, he even straight up killed his retainers too. So all of their men died, a lot of civilian casualties were had, towns destroyed - all so that Garon could sit on a throne, and the game tries to tell you that what they're doing is right.

You claim to read between the lines, but it's obvious you haven't read a single argument we've made here, so I'm going to question your ability to actually follow and understand an entire story. You didn't defend any opinions, you attacked others'.

[The DanMan]

*sigh*

And the drama comes back again.

Anyways, as for the actual thread discussion: Orochi and Peri. Orochi is borderline useless with her poor sped, while Peri is still Peri. I was hoping Peri would become something like Reina in the localization (you know, like how she was described in the initial press release), but instead she sounds like she belongs in a horror movie. That, and her stats are kinda sucky; Dread Fighter Kaze is much better as an anti-mage unit who also has utility besides, while Silas is a bog-standard cavalier that obviously outclasses Peri as a bog-standard cavalier.

[BruceLee]

GOOD, honor is something that you should have your own definition for.

i felt he is honorable at least to me as he sides with you in Conquest down to not killing Hoshidans and is the one who initiates the fight after you arrive in Izumo in Conquest, even if he isn't as honorable as Ryoma its undeniable he has some honor, Birthright makes him out as a villain but have you played Conquest? Takumia couldn't be any less of an asshole all he wants to do is kill you and any one who has nohrian blood, hes the Xander of Conquest.

also people who are saying Iago, Hans and Garon's actions are his fault or talk the character down for them is just not right, he may not openly voice his desire for peace like Ryoma, but if he didn't believe in peace he would've killed you during chapter 7 of Conquest easily, but he is clearly just enough to believe you and aid you in taking down his own father. i'm not saying hes better than Ryoma, i like Ryoma more but hating on Xander is just unjustified.

> Calls Takumi an asshole for wanting to kill Kamui after Kamui gets his mother killed and then immediately joins the people invading his country.

> Calls the hate for Xander unjustified

Talk about double standards.

To start off, if you begin writing such a lengthy response with ad hominems, then you're likely not to be taken seriously; where did my "ego" come in? I was just surprised that since we've talked about Xander's characterization in all three paths that someone would come in and ask me if I hadn't played all versions. When you just ignore pages worth of debate just to insert your own opinion which has been discussed multiple times, then of course people are going to be annoyed at having to explain everything all over again.

Also, can you tell me what I'm biased against? I criticize any and all story flaws and have been doing that for months; Xander is not getting any special treatment, and neither is any other character or flaw. If anything the ones I've talked about the most are Corrin, Azura and Garon for various reasons.

Yes, me and a lot of other people think Xander should've rebelled. Why? Because he's presented as an honorable man who's aware that what his father is doing is wrong, yet he keeps following him, wallowing in self pity that he was born a crown prince and never had a choice. It makes him come across as both weak and incredibly self-serving; so long as he lives he can put up with his father. Also, what does Azura have anything to do with Xander? If anything

her death was brushed aside very quickly and only there to tell the player to play Revelations, which is the canon path.

Takumi doesn't want "mass genocide", what on earth are you talking about? He's biased against Nohrians because all he knows about them is that they're warmongers and double-crossers who killed his father and later his mother and a lot of civilians with the indirect help from Corrin. How do you tink anyone would react?

About Xander's nobility and consistency, I fail to see where you're from yet again. [spoiler=Birthright spoilers]He goes on about what's best for the country yet still serves Garon whom he knows is a monster. He challenges Corrin to a duel and telling them not to hold back yet does so himself after he kills Elise, failing to honor her last wish because of his own selfishness. He is too afraid to stand up to Iago and Hans even though we've got no proof that doing so would anger Garon since Garon values Xander's strength much more.

What are you talking about? The game blatantly tries to make Corrin and Xander look like heroes; Corrin and his army are given the ability to win entire battles without killing anyone and the narrative tries to make it look like what Corrin is doing is the fastest way to end the war and brushes the consequences under the rug to make him look heroic. If anything, Takumi is the one who's being portrayed as being in the wrong. And of course, the most important part of all in making Corrin look like a hero which he clearly isn't: [spoiler=Conquest finale spoiler]he's forgiven by everyone in the afterlife even though he was personally responsible for their deaths; in Takumi's case, he even straight up killed his retainers too. So all of their men died, a lot of civilian casualties were had, towns destroyed - all so that Garon could sit on a throne, and the game tries to tell you that what they're doing is right.

You claim to read between the lines, but it's obvious you haven't read a single argument we've made here, so I'm going to question your ability to actually follow and understand an entire story. You didn't defend any opinions, you attacked others'.

Well said.

[Book Bro]

Orochi is borderline useless with her poor sped,

This is something I've seen ever since the Japanese version came out, but honestly her Speed isn't an issue for me because she's hitting for consistently high damage anyway. She's been a beast in attack stance pretty much my whole run of Birthright (on chapter 18, just promoted her to Basara for Rend Heaven which I suspect will make her even deadlier).

Edited February 29, 2016 by Book Bro

[The DanMan]

This is something I've seen ever since the Japanese version came out, but honestly her Speed isn't an issue for me because she's hitting for consistently high damage anyway. She's been a beast in attack stance pretty much my whole run of Birthright (on chapter 18, just promoted her to Basara for Rend Heaven which I suspect will make her even deadlier).

Well, I made Azama a Dark Flier almost immediately, and he's a functional mixed attacker that can take a hit and ORKO's most enemies.

If I hit a real rut where I need a pure mage unit, I can always support grind out Rhajat or try something else.

[secondworld]

I guess it's just a difference in how I look at things, but when I see how inconsistent Xander's character and role in the story is(playing Conquest), I go straight to blaming the writers and story in general as opposed to the character. Maybe there's some bias at play here. Basically I think Xander is a fine character and I like him, when the plot isn't dragging him down. Conquest has done that with a few characters I've noticed.

The characters I actually don't like are Garon, Iago, and Hans. And here I though Validar and Grima were lame villains.

[Dangerus]

My least favorite is most definitely Asugi.

I severely dislike the Hoshidan Awakening trio. I find their inclusion lazy, undignified and out of place. archetypes are fine but the clone trio are just desperate. Even the standard red and green cavalry usually at least try to be different. The Norhian trio have an excuse but these three just don't.

But the thing is, I GET why Cordelia and Tharja would be included. Whether you love them or hate them its hard to deny they were one of the more iconic, popular and most discussed characters from Awakening. Gaius does not even have that. Sure, he ranked high on the Japanese poll (somehow) but he always struck me as a very forgettable character and since I barely hear anyone talk about him I'm assuming I'm not the only one who thinks that.

Asugi combines the distaste I already have for the trio with my indifference towards Gaius to create a character which truly does not sit well with me.

It's funny. It's kind of the reason why I picked up Conquest. I played Awakening well enough to get that I don't see anything special with Gaius. Sadly, if I had to choose between Gaius and Vaike though, I would have picked Gaius because of how unbearable Vaike is to me. Goes for show how blandness seems to win out in the end as he is.

Speaking of Awakening Trios...

Cordelia and Tharja's designs reappearing in Fates was something that disappointed me. At the same time though, I hear how the character's development in the localization (Shara/Rhajat and Matoi/Caeldori) got utterly butched and that in itself is kind of sinful. If they were my favorite units/characters in Awakening (a.k.a. Virion, Say'ri, Priam, Yen'fay and/or Tiki), I would more than likely be super hurt by this.

I really wish I can spoil the real names of Odin, Lazlow, and Selena because honestly, there is so much I need to talk about. They are the hardest to write about in my honest opinion because I already paired them with other people in Awakening. Severa with Gerome, Inigo with Noire (Tharja's daughter how ironic), and Owain himself fluctuated between Nah and Kjelle. Pairing them in Fates made me hurt myself more and more. If it wasn't for the fact Elise and Camilla were very tolerable and very realistic in their supports with Owain and Inigo, I probably would have broken my 3DS. When I get Revelations though, the decision of who I would pair them with would get extra difficult since I plan to pair Elise with Takumi and Camilla with Ryoma.

Now onto the NON-Awakening oriented Least Favorite Characters of mine chats.

Azama is without a doubt one of the most disgusting PCs I have ever come across. I don't care if his nihilism just was some shoddy side effect of the localization not giving a damn or if the developers wanted to make another Henry expy in some Japanese-inspired character with ridiculously impossible hair. The fact I can't remember if he was in Conquest or not though is also a bad sign.

Conquest-wise, Hans is also a character I don't enjoy coming across. Actually, a lot of the Nohr NPCs actually grind my gears. It almost made me furious that can't grind Mozu in Conquest very well, but I love Mozu as a character.

[Water Mage]

Did you really forget about Azama in Conquest?

In every chapter he appear, he has that cursed Hexing Staff! That alone makes him a priority in the maps he's in.

Also, his personality wasn't changed a lot from the localization.

[Tolvir]

I guess it's just a difference in how I look at things, but when I see how inconsistent Xander's character and role in the story is(playing Conquest), I go straight to blaming the writers and story in general as opposed to the character. Maybe there's some bias at play here. Basically I think Xander is a fine character and I like him, when the plot isn't dragging him down. Conquest has done that with a few characters I've noticed.

The characters I actually don't like are Garon, Iago, and Hans. And here I though Validar and Grima were lame villains.

I completely agree. I don't like seeing the amount of hate Nohr and its characters get because everyone blames the characters and story itself rather than the shoddy writing of IS.

Its why I am a little jaded towards the Hoshidan royals because everyone loves to point out the flaws with Nohr, while completely ignoring the problems of the Hoshidans. I want to like them, but its hard to do that when they are toted around all the time as being the definition of perfection and can do no wrong.

Overall my least favorite characters at the moment are Garon, his two lackeys, and Takumi.

Garon annoys me because he is just so much wasted potential to be a great villian. They could of gone in so many different directions with him that would of made him one of the best villians of Fire Emblem, but they threw all of that away.

Iago is kind of in the same boat. He could of been easily the bad guy that you really just hate the entire time. The nemisis character that you just cannot wait to kick his ass later in the game, but once again they wasted that potential and made him the saturday morning cartoon villian.

Hans is just a dumbass, and could of been taken out of the story with no effect.

And then Takumi. This is where I always receive flak, but I really do not like his character right now. I hope this changes once I play through the entire game, all three versions included. He is like Shinon 2.0 for me, and it annoys me because I wanted to like him. Before this game released I found him interesting, I thought his distrust of Corrin made sense, and added layers to his character. But in Conquest, in my opinion they really failed with his writing. They should of made me feel sympathetic towards him, understand his situation, and feel bad for having to fight him. No, instead they did the complete opposite, and made me hate him more than I do the main bad guy that I am supposed to hate. The fact that he was so ready to put an arrow in Corrin's skull was off-putting to me. Distrust I can understand, but he doesn't even give Corrin a chance when he first shows up in Hoshido.

His anger towards Corrin leading to his mother's death was reasonable as well. and even being the first to encounter Corrin on the battlefield when you make a choice, but its the fact that he doesn't have any remorse for the fact that he is having to fight you. In no way does he give a hint that he wishes you didn't make that choice No, he acts more like he wanted you to make that choice so he could kill you. How the hell am I supposed to view that, and then feel sorry for the character later?

He is the only one in Chapter 18 that I didn't want to save. I was hoping that he was dead already before I got the chance to save him so I could be done with that character.

So overall, my dislike for Takumi comes from the shoddy writing of Conquest so far. I really hope that this changes at some point, since I am still not through Conquest all the way, but I am under the impression I will have to play through Birthright or Revelation in order for his character to be salvageable for me.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Tolvir

[Tsuky]

Ryoma is the loving big brother who cares for his family and is pretty wise as well, but he has his faults, like in support dialogue with Azura or after getting Azura in Conquest we learn Ryoma has and always will treat Azura like his true sister, but when you choose Nohr he acts like you're being tricked or brainwashed despite knowing that theres more to family then just blood, so his anger in Conquest never seemed all that justified, and i know most of it is over betraying Mikoto but still, and his support dialogue with Corrin didn't make it seem like he wanted to get to know Corrin so much as to explain more about his past though he does inquire Silas about Corrin, plus the A support with Azura is funny but shows his wisdom might only stem towards insight and honor, and for a man of honor having his younger siblings refer to the enemy as scum or dogs is pretty off.

Except he's not really wrong about that? Garon did brainwash you and you grew up thinking you were Nohrian, while the Hoshidan family was always honest with Azura.

And in his support with Corrin, he only talked about those things because Corrin specifically asked him to. You can't fault him for that...

Ryoma does have his faults, but those aren't it.

People's problems with Xander mostly stem how every action he takes in both Birthright and Conquest contradict the idea of him having any form of honor or nobility. Ryoma mostly gets hate over the Elise thing (which I still don't agree with).

This has been discussed before elsewhere, but Elise isn't an "innocent." She's a combatant in a war, fighting on the side of the aggressors, and chose to fight despite knowing it was in fact a war and she was probably going to have to kill people to survive. Depending on when she's promoted, she could have killed enemy soldiers herself. Now if Elise hadn't been a party member before this and was just tagging along with Corrin for whatever reason or Takumi had attacked an actual innocent Nohrian, the point might stand.

(I’d also like to know where any actual innocent Nohrians show up in Conquest for the Hoshido Royals to act like jerks to. If anything, the Nohrians Royals are far worse towards innocent Nohrians and Hoshidans.)

Ah, the Ryoma issue makes me facepalm every time. I've had to explain it many times already...

And I don't recall any interaction between the Hoshidan siblings and innocent Nohrian civilians, either.

people wanted him to attack Garon or openly oppose him, but Garon is clearly extremely powerful and is willing to kill ANY of his children given the chance, im not saying Xander is the best of people but at the very least he sides with you during Conquest, he doesn't side with you during Birthright but Ryoma and the others simply call you evil with no knowledge of your plans so it's an equal sin on both sides.

What plan, though? Corrin had no plan on how to stop the war, and the plan he ended up going with in Conquest is absolutely terrible. With all that, why should the Hoshidan siblings trust him/her?

I completely agree. I don't like seeing the amount of hate Nohr and its characters get because everyone blames the characters and story itself rather than the shoddy writing of IS.

Its why I am a little jaded towards the Hoshidan royals because everyone loves to point out the flaws with Nohr, while completely ignoring the problems of the Hoshidans. I want to like them, but its hard to do that when they are toted around all the time as being the definition of perfection and can do no wrong.

I see what you are saying, but everything that exists in this game is a creation of IS. By this logic, this thread shouldn't even exist because the characters are just "not well written," and every single comment can be summed up with "IS sucks." I'm not sure that's the best way to approach things.

And people do call the Hoshidan royals out on their BS (in fact, I just did with Hinoka some pages ago), and I'm pretty sure no one who criticized Xander thinks the Hoshidan siblings are perfect. But as it stands, Xander specifically just has more BS to be called out on. Not nearly as many people go after Leo, for example, because he isn't plagued by a lot of the problems that Xander suffers from.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Tsuky

[Nanima]

I completely agree. I don't like seeing the amount of hate Nohr and its characters get because everyone blames the characters and story itself rather than the shoddy writing of IS.

Its why I am a little jaded towards the Hoshidan royals because everyone loves to point out the flaws with Nohr, while completely ignoring the problems of the Hoshidans. I want to like them, but its hard to do that when they are toted around all the time as being the definition of perfection and can do no wrong.

I am sorry, I have no idea what places you have been going to, but from what I have seen it is usually the opposite. Serenes is an exception as far as I know, everywhere else the Hoshidans are called out for every single thing they do. "Boring" is one of the lighter words used here.

Ryoma gets plenty of shit for not immediately handing Elise's medicine over, despite him being a future king with his own people to think about. I have seen some very stupid jokes about Hinoka not being able to 'measure up' to Camilla and how she is stuck up and racist. Don't get me started on Takumi, who gets constantly villfied for not bowing down to Corrin's whims and kissing their ass. Someone in this very thread claimed Takumi was planning "mass genocide". and finally, I have seen plenty people make fun of Sakura for her social anxiety.

Look I get it, the narrative seems almost scared to portray the Hoshidans (minus Takumi) in a negative light, while quite clearly presenting the flaws of the Nohrians. This can be quite frustrating. However, Hoshido has received plenty of criticism, some of it fair and some very biased and uncalled for. I suggest we stop holding contests over which side is more unjustly criticised and try to look at this objectively.

[The DanMan]

I guess it's just a difference in how I look at things, but when I see how inconsistent Xander's character and role in the story is(playing Conquest), I go straight to blaming the writers and story in general as opposed to the character. Maybe there's some bias at play here. Basically I think Xander is a fine character and I like him, when the plot isn't dragging him down. Conquest has done that with a few characters I've noticed.

The characters I actually don't like are Garon, Iago, and Hans. And here I though Validar and Grima were lame villains.

Basically, this. I don't complain about characters and their actions; I complain about the writing and writers behind them.

For example: I think Ryoma's kind of cool. He does come of as very straightforward and bland, however. I don't go around complaining about how boring he is; I make mention of how the way he's written is too straightforward and predictable for me.

[Dangerus]

Did you really forget about Azama in Conquest?

In every chapter he appear, he has that cursed Hexing Staff! That alone makes him a priority in the maps he's in.

Also, his personality wasn't changed a lot from the localization.

Sadly yeah. There isn't anything super special about him outside of that. He's just so... mehhhh.

Granted I played the game with Phoenix/Normal Mode in tow so I wasn't getting much of a threat. I bet if this were in a more difficult level however, I would be superbly despise Azama even more, which I hope not to do because I plan to play Birthright/Revelations and he would be one of my units.

[Tolvir]

I am sorry, I have no idea what places you have been going to, but from what I have seen it is usually the opposite. Serenes is an exception as far as I know, everywhere else the Hoshidans are called out for every single thing they do. "Boring" is one of the lighter words used here.

Ryoma gets plenty of shit for not immediately handing Elise's medicine over, despite him being a future king with his own people to think about. I have seen some very stupid jokes about Hinoka not being able to 'measure up' to Camilla and how she is stuck up and racist. Don't get me started on Takumi, who gets constantly villfied for not bowing down to Corrin's whims and kissing their ass. Someone in this very thread claimed Takumi was planning "mass genocide". and finally, I have seen plenty people make fun of Sakura for her social anxiety.

Look I get it, the narrative seems almost scared to portray the Hoshidans (minus Takumi) in a negative light, while quite clearly presenting the flaws of the Nohrians. This can be quite frustrating. However, Hoshido has received plenty of criticism, some of it fair and some very biased and uncalled for. I suggest we stop holding contests over which side is more unjustly criticised and try to look at this objectively.

Serenes Forest is probably the most biased place I have seen when it comes to this subject. All other places point of the flaws of both sides, but here I see the majority pointing out flaws in Nohr, while for the most part ignoring Hoshido's, lightly touching on them, or finding some stupid excuse to justify their favorite character/side.

I haven't seen a whole lot of criticism for Hinoka and Sakura to be honest, and when I do its the stupid shit that I don't really count, which are the things you pointed out. That is my problem though, most of the time when I see someone point something out about the Hoshidan characters, its the stupid accusations or statements like the mass genocide comments. I have yet to see a well detailed, well thought out criticism of any of the Hoshido and its characters. Most of the time its criticism for Conquest's writing, with some people criticizing Mikoto for being Emmeryn 2.0. If you know of one, please point it out because I have yet to see any actual criticism of Hoshido outside of the stupid biased bullshit.

[Tsuky]

I am sorry, I have no idea what places you have been going to, but from what I have seen it is usually the opposite. Serenes is an exception as far as I know, everywhere else the Hoshidans are called out for every single thing they do. "Boring" is one of the lighter words used here.

Ryoma gets plenty of shit for not immediately handing Elise's medicine over, despite him being a future king with his own people to think about. I have seen some very stupid jokes about Hinoka not being able to 'measure up' to Camilla and how she is stuck up and racist. Don't get me started on Takumi, who gets constantly villfied for not bowing down to Corrin's whims and kissing their ass. Someone in this very thread claimed Takumi was planning "mass genocide". and finally, I have seen plenty people make fun of Sakura for her social anxiety.

Look I get it, the narrative seems almost scared to portray the Hoshidans (minus Takumi) in a negative light, while quite clearly presenting the flaws of the Nohrians. This can be quite frustrating. However, Hoshido has received plenty of criticism, some of it fair and some very biased and uncalled for. I suggest we stop holding contests over which side is more unjustly criticised and try to look at this objectively.

This is why I'm afraid of even clicking around on some of the other sites. The amount of unwarranted shit Hoshido gets is scary.

Serenes Forest is probably the most biased place I have seen when it comes to this subject. All other places point of the flaws of both sides, but here I see the majority pointing out flaws in Nohr, while for the most part ignoring Hoshido's, lightly touching on them, or finding some stupid excuse to justify their favorite character/side.

I haven't seen a whole lot of criticism for Hinoka and Sakura to be honest, and when I do its the stupid shit that I don't really count, which are the things you pointed out. That is my problem though, most of the time when I see someone point something out about the Hoshidan characters, its the stupid accusations or statements like the mass genocide comments. I have yet to see a well detailed, well thought out criticism of any of the Hoshido and its characters. Most of the time its criticism for Conquest's writing, with some people criticizing Mikoto for being Emmeryn 2.0. If you know of one, please point it out because I have yet to see any actual criticism of Hoshido outside of the stupid biased bullshit.

I mean, I'm perfectly willing to read well-constructed criticisms of Hoshido (other than being too perfect, because everyone already agrees that it's an issue), but based on what I've seen around the internet, a lot of the hate towards Hoshido as a whole is some immature BS (lol Ryoma's unfortunate encounter with TVtropes), while people at least criticize characters in Nohr more on a case-by-case basis, a lot of which is based evidence in the games (and there are plenty of people defending them, as well). I'm not sure Hoshido is really better off in this case.

[secondworld]

I do take some issue with Takumi(not because he doesn't like the avatar) but I haven't played Birthright yet

[Thane]

This is why I'm afraid of even clicking around on some of the other sites. The amount of unwarranted shit Hoshido gets is scary.

Try going to YouTube; the way people talk about Awakening there makes it sound like it's the spawn of the devil.

I do take some issue with Takumi(not because he doesn't like the avatar) but I haven't played Birthright yet

What are your issues with him? I feel like all of Conquest is essentially him being the only sane man on the planet; really, the story would've been better if it turned out to be a fever dream he had.

[Nanima]

Serenes Forest is probably the most biased place I have seen when it comes to this subject. All other places point of the flaws of both sides, but here I see the majority pointing out flaws in Nohr, while for the most part ignoring Hoshido's, lightly touching on them, or finding some stupid excuse to justify their favorite character/side.

I haven't seen a whole lot of criticism for Hinoka and Sakura to be honest, and when I do its the stupid shit that I don't really count, which are the things you pointed out. That is my problem though, most of the time when I see someone point something out about the Hoshidan characters, its the stupid accusations or statements like the mass genocide comments. I have yet to see a well detailed, well thought out criticism of any of the Hoshido and its characters. Most of the time its criticism for Conquest's writing, with some people criticizing Mikoto for being Emmeryn 2.0. If you know of one, please point it out because I have yet to see any actual criticism of Hoshido outside of the stupid biased bullshit.

That's the fault of the narrative which concerns a warlike kingdom attacking an innocent kingdom. The actions of Hoshido weigh lighter, because they are faced with an unprovoked invasion.

That being said, let me try and give you some, hopefully valid, criticism:

-Takumi's suspicion and hatred of Corrin may be justified, but that doesn't really excuse how he acts towards Azura in chapter 5 and prior. The explanation for it, is that his rage at Corrin (equal parts justified distrust and resentment over receiving the love of the family, which Takumi thinks is not the case for himself) causes him to lash out at the first person to defend them. This does not excuse it though. His distrust at Azura is not as justified as it is with Corrin. Sure, she might be daughter of the enemy king, but she has also lived and literally grown up with them for decades. She readily states how much she hated living in Nohr. So no, I don't think Takumi's chapter 5 rant can be entirely excused where it pertains Azura.

-Ryouma's trip to Chevalier during Birthright was an insanely risky thing for a future king to do. He went by himself, undercover and without his retainers, into enemy territory to aid a plucky resistance group, leaving his siblings to basically figure things out for themselves. Right after getting seperated from Takumi during a dangerous battle, without trying to find out if his little brother was alright or anything. He just got extremely lucky that everything turned out alright in the end. I think this demonstrates how reckless Ryouma can be despite his appearance as the wise crown prince.

[secondworld]

What are your issues with him? I feel like all of Conquest is essentially him being the only sane man on the planet; really, the story would've been better if it turned out to be a fever dream he had.

Oh I don't take much issue with his role in the story, most of his behavior and actions are fine(in a story-telling sense), my issues with Takumi are more with the character itself than how he's handled in the story(opposite of how I feel about Xander basically). He just came off as unlikable and not endearing any particular way. This is why my disclaimer is so important though, I've literally only seen one side of the story.

One story problem I do have is that his kinda racist, narrow minded view of Nohrians is never actually touched upon, but that hardly applies to just Takumi.

[Thane]

Oh I don't take much issue with his role in the story, most of his behavior and actions are fine(in a story-telling sense), my issues with Takumi are more with the character itself than how he's handled in the story(opposite of how I feel about Xander basically). He just came off as unlikable and not endearing any particular way. This is why my disclaimer is so important though, I've literally only seen one side of the story.

One story problem I do have is that his kinda racist, narrow minded view of Nohrians is never actually touched upon, but that hardly applies to just Takumi.

That's fair, especially if you've already played Conquest. To me, he, Leo and Oboro are probably the characters that feel most real or at the very least more relatable. They've got solid supports that deal with a lot of different subjects and Leo and Takumi have large roles in the main story that I found interesting.

Yeah, with so many main characters they really wrote themselves into a corner; like I said earlier, Leo and Takumi are the ones who get handled the best while Hinoka is essentially left and forgotten in all three routes. I don't think the racism is necessarily that important though, and what there is to explain has already been, what with Garon turning Sumeragi into a porcupine, but maybe I'm being biased here.

He should've equipped Bowbreaker.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Thane