Camilla vs Hinoka (Conquest chapter 11 spoilers)

[Magikarpador]

I... I sympathize with Hinoka (and am on the fence of Camilla or Flora...). She trained her whole life to rescue Corrin, got him back, then had her world ripped from her. But I sympathize more with the Nohrians, who had brothers and sisters killed without any way to protect them, didn't know if they themselves were next, etc.

I haven't played Birthright yet, so I don't have that strong of a connection with the characters, but that's still something you really have to give Fates credit for. Between Hoshido and Nohr there isn't a right choice and you will ultimately feel bad regardless of the side as it's hard to feel justified fighting, yet at the same time, you made your choice for a reason and neither are wrong.

[Nukemind]

I haven't played Birthright yet, so I don't have that strong of a connection with the characters, but that's still something you really have to give Fates credit for. Between Hoshido and Nohr there isn't a right choice and you will ultimately feel bad regardless of the side as it's hard to feel justified fighting, yet at the same time, you made your choice for a reason and neither are wrong.

Unless you play Revelations :P. But yes, it's a case of picking your poison. I always said I would go Nohr first, and I did- like 5 chapters before going revelations.

In the chapter you "betray" Hoshido and/or Nohe, I've said it before, Hinoka say "All this time... What have I been fighting for?" Despite barreling knowing her or er story at the time, it ranks in my top 5 video game gut punches. I felt like a piece of crap- but I would too if I turned my back on the people who raised me. A little kind sister- Elise. A surrogate mother- Camilla. The Stalwart Protector- Marxander. And the brother that is basically me in RL- Leo (though he's more handsome, he and I have the same color and til recently style hair, both bookish, both desire praise, etc. love the guy. He also has my flaws.) For people that until recently Kamui didn't even remember... And yet the Queen... It's such a rough choice and I freaking LOVE the game for making you choose. Very few games would make you do that these days.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Nukemind

[Magikarpador]

Unless you play Revelations :P. But yes, it's a case of picking your poison. I always said I would go Nohr first, and I did- like 5 chapters before going revelations.

In the chapter you "betray" Hoshido and/or Nohe, I've said it before, Hinoka say "All this time... What have I been fighting for?" Despite barreling knowing her or er story at the time, it ranks in my top 5 video game gut punches. I felt like a piece of crap- but I would too if I turned my back on the people who raised me. A little kind sister- Elise. A surrogate mother- Camilla. The Stalwart Protector- Marxander. And the brother that is basically me in RL- Leo (though he's more handsome, he and I have the same color and til recently style hair, both bookish, both desire praise, etc. love the guy. He also has my flaws.) For people that until recently Kamui didn't even remember... And yet the Queen... It's such a rough choice and I freaking LOVE the game for making you choose. Very few games would make you do that these days.

I agree, and that's why my feelings on Revelations are mixed. I know very little about it as I've been avoiding spoilers and all that, but the impression I get is that it's the true path and it basically makes wraps everything up nicely. It did so so good with how it made a choice, so unless Revelations does still have some real consequences, it makes it feel like a cheat and the easy way out.

[Nukemind]

I agree, and that's why my feelings on Revelations are mixed. I know very little about it as I've been avoiding spoilers and all that, but the impression I get is that it's the true path and it basically makes wraps everything up nicely. It did so so good with how it made a choice, so unless Revelations does still have some real consequences, it makes it feel like a cheat and the easy way out.

It still has SOME bitterness to it, but I agree, it's basically the 20th century versions of the Brothers Grimm Originals.

[BruceLee]

I'm gonna drop the war crime discussion, clearly my moral standards don't line up with those of others here. Let's agree to disagree.

I tend to completely immerse myself into games and really care about characters i like, so i get pretty passionate about justice and injustice. I apologize if i went overboard.

Unless you play Revelations :P. But yes, it's a case of picking your poison. I always said I would go Nohr first, and I did- like 5 chapters before going revelations.

In the chapter you "betray" Hoshido and/or Nohe, I've said it before, Hinoka say "All this time... What have I been fighting for?" Despite barreling knowing her or er story at the time, it ranks in my top 5 video game gut punches. I felt like a piece of crap- but I would too if I turned my back on the people who raised me. A little kind sister- Elise. A surrogate mother- Camilla. The Stalwart Protector- Marxander. And the brother that is basically me in RL- Leo (though he's more handsome, he and I have the same color and til recently style hair, both bookish, both desire praise, etc. love the guy. He also has my flaws.) For people that until recently Kamui didn't even remember... And yet the Queen... It's such a rough choice and I freaking LOVE the game for making you choose. Very few games would make you do that these days.

While i can't say i can connect with the Nohrians that much because the story alone just repels me, i feel the same way about Hinoka's line when you beat her in chapter 6. It crushes my heart. It's one of the reasons i simply can't pick Nohr.

[Pretty_Handsome]

Wait til you see what happens to Scarlet and Cheve...

[Etrurian emperor]

I can actually see where Camilla is coming from.

Camilla puts a lot of heart into being Corrin's loving big sister. She does so to a downright unhealthy extend but its clear Corrin means the world to her and she tries to proudly show that love to the whole world.

So for Camilla it must be unbearable that there is some girl claiming to be Corrin's ''real'' sister despite having done nothing to deserve that title(In Camilla's eyes of course). For Camilla the whole idea of a ''real'' big sister must be very threatening and so she can't resists bragging that Corrin picked her as the ''real'' one.

Yes, its very petty of Camilla but then again she's a bit messed up.

[Dwlr]

Am I the only one thinking that chasing down injured helpless enemies is a good idea in general? If you're trying to fix things between the two countries then sure it's not a good idea and that's what they're going for, but if you're playing to win, it makes sense to slaughter anybody that might potentially raise a weapon against you again. It's not like she wanted to chop off their heads and adorn the castle walls with them all though that too would send a pretty clear "join or die" message.

I'd be for besieging a castle using the severed heads of enemy soldiers to load the catapults or hanging their corpses throughout towns to serve as a warning to any who opposed you that it could be you hanging in town square, weaken the enemy anyway you can to win, burn their food and salt the land, take no prisoners and slaughter all who oppose you hanging their mangled bodies for all to see, sends a pretty clear message that they should just stop fighting.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Dwlr

[Water Mage]

An interesting thing about this, is that in Oboro and Jakob's support conversation, it actually shows that this is one of Jakob's duties.

He's in charge of battlefield cleaning, which means he looks for survivors of the previous battle and kills them.

Makes you wonder if he does that behind Corrin's back.

Oboro, however, seems to think just like Corrin, as she finds chasing after survivors and killing them to be despicable.

[Ryas]

I thought the wording of that support made it abundantly clear that "mop-up operations" are just a regular duty that comes with being in the army. Oboro even recognizes that such operations may be cruel yet necessary and that most of her disgust comes from her own personal issues rather than pure morality. The Hoshidans kill the enemy wounded. If you let the enemy go they will rejoin their army and you'll have more troops to fight later. Taking them all prisoner stretches your own resources and there's no easy, convenient way to trade POWs given their level of technology. Leaving them to bleed out or die of an infection on the battlefield would be cruel, and so they are killed and put out of their misery. It seems simple and clear cut to me, you just need to view these things from a detached and logical perspective.

[Tolvir]

I'm gonna drop the war crime discussion, clearly my moral standards don't line up with those of others here. Let's agree to disagree.

I tend to completely immerse myself into games and really care about characters i like, so i get pretty passionate about justice and injustice. I apologize if i went overboard.

While i can't say i can connect with the Nohrians that much because the story alone just repels me, i feel the same way about Hinoka's line when you beat her in chapter 6. It crushes my heart. It's one of the reasons i simply can't pick Nohr.

They did a good job of showing that the Nohr Royal siblings are good people in localization. They are actively working against Garon behind his back. Leo even has a line in Chapter 14 where he says you have to appear to be good little soldiers, and that they help people behind Garon's back all the time. Overall they are good people and had a very interesting situation that got screwed over by a horrible excuse to have a conflict between Hoshido and Nohr in the second half of the story. They would of had a really interesting and good story if they kept with the idea of working behind Garon's back. Would of made for some really interesting maps too where you are caught inbetween Nohr and Hoshido fighting, and have to stop Nohr from advancing without harming x amount of Hoshidan troops.

Overall I think Conquest got screwed over because they wanted a conflict between Hoshido and Nohr, but with having a clear bad guy like Garon, it really screws everything over from the Nohr angle, while Birthright has no problem because you are already fighting Nohr.

Edited February 24, 2016 by Tolvir

[Ema Skye]

Going back to Camilla's personality for a sec, as I play through Nohr, I'm imagining the five siblings as their own family within a family.

Camilla is very obviously the maternal figure in their relationship with how much she cares for her siblings (mostly Corrin, but I've seen a lot of her concern for Elise as well. I'm only up to Ch11 so I can't go into more depth with Leo and Xander). Even in the support between the sisters, Elise wants to be just like Camilla.

I get the paternal figure from Xander. He's legitimately between a rock (Garon) and a hard place (his own morals) and as heir to the throne, he's obviously got to be careful how he acts. Wouldn't want Iago trying to take the throne now, would we? He's loyal to a fault with how much he's willing to stand for his siblings (like after the Ice Tribe thing; he's willing to die for Corrin).

[Nukemind]

Am I the only one thinking that chasing down injured helpless enemies is a good idea in general? If you're trying to fix things between the two countries then sure it's not a good idea and that's what they're going for, but if you're playing to win, it makes sense to slaughter anybody that might potentially raise a weapon against you again. It's not like she wanted to chop off their heads and adorn the castle walls with them all though that too would send a pretty clear "join or die" message.

I'd be for besieging a castle using the severed heads of enemy soldiers to load the catapults or hanging their corpses throughout towns to serve as a warning to any who opposed you that it could be you hanging in town square, weaken the enemy anyway you can to win, burn their food and salt the land, take no prisoners and slaughter all who oppose you hanging their mangled bodies for all to see, sends a pretty clear message that they should just stop fighting.

No, as discussed it's both legal and smart. Whats better? Killing an enemy whilst he is fighting, and hurting your own soldiers, or after they have been shattered, are retreating, but refuse to surrender, lay down arms, etc.

There is a reason that whilst Vlad Tepes III (AKA Dracula and Vlad the Impaler) is seen as a villain over here in the States, in Romania he actually has a holiday and is celebrated. Yeah, he killed a good 20,000 civilians- at minimum. But he protected Wallachia from being taken by the Ottomans.

Though I don't agree with everything in the small print. For a few reasons. One- it's completely and totally cruel. Two- it violates the Geneva's convention "rights of death." Essentially, if someone dies, they should be buried, or returned to their country of origin. But, Vlad did some of what you encourage, and again he is celebrated by the country he did it to. Salting the Earth, however, just leads to another war later down the road. It's better to mend bridges than encourage a war when the enemy recovers: See Treaty of Versailles, and the Three Punic Wars.

[Silver Lightning]

Going back to Camilla's personality for a sec, as I play through Nohr, I'm imagining the five siblings as their own family within a family.

Camilla is very obviously the maternal figure in their relationship with how much she cares for her siblings (mostly Corrin, but I've seen a lot of her concern for Elise as well. I'm only up to Ch11 so I can't go into more depth with Leo and Xander). Even in the support between the sisters, Elise wants to be just like Camilla.

I get the paternal figure from Xander. He's legitimately between a rock (Garon) and a hard place (his own morals) and as heir to the throne, he's obviously got to be careful how he acts. Wouldn't want Iago trying to take the throne now, would we? He's loyal to a fault with how much he's willing to stand for his siblings (like after the Ice Tribe thing; he's willing to die for Corrin).

This. I've experienced this while playing and completely agree word for word (coming from someone who's played up to Ch 20).

From the very beginning it was easy to see this; Xander is the father figure, mentor and role model that Corrin and the younger siblings desperately needed since Garon is obviously a terrible father and role model (at least since Elise was born). Camilla, having known virtually no love from her own mother and seeing the same mistreatment to her half siblings has taken it upon herself to be the mother figure they never had, especially for Corrin who had no such person to do so for them since they were brought to Nohr (Its why I really like her character and appreciate the fact that she's doing her best to be the best mother/older sister as humanly possible without ever having had somewhere to learn how to properly convey and display those emotions. Honestly I think its a miracle that her character isn't even more broken and twisted after what she must've gone through growing up, and she gets fulfillment out of providing all the love and devotion to her siblings that she herself never received growing up). Leo, while younger, is actually super mature and intelligent for his relatively young age and he's the one who teaches Corrin how to be a tactician; he loves his siblings very much and goes above and beyond to make them happy even if he doesn't show it outright (not to mention he always feels lonelier because his strength and resilience doesn't inspire the same need for care that Corrin and Elise do). And Elise is the precious little sister who brings the light to their gloomy lives; having been brought up mostly by her siblings, she doesn't have to go through as much of the same crap that the older ones did (Evil!Garon notwithstanding). Corrin is what keeps them all together and doesn't let them fall to their darker nature, which may happen should s/he not have chosen to stick with them.

As soon as Xander joins the game gives you a nice reunion scene with all the siblings and even include Azura since she was originally their sister. And all the retainers and friends who joined are even at points referred to Corrin collectively as a family (Mozu and Nyx's recruitment scenes). I feel like with all the crap that the Nohr path makes you do (and the intense difficulty of the maps/keeping characters alive as I'm playing classic), I really feel for my poor extended family of "misfits" trying, with Corrin's guidance, to struggle against Nohr's dark nature and better themselves and their future. It reminds me a lot of the Black Fang in FE7; a group of honorable assassins that treat each other like family, who just happened to have the unfortunate fate of having their leadership corrupted by an evil force which devoured them from within, but to the last, they kept their good nature and honor even when they were being forced to do terrible things. At least with Nohr, there's still the hope of a not completely terrible ending (obviously the best will be in Revelations).

I'm not even done with the game yet I still feel that these characters have so much depth in them and how they deal with their enemies and loved ones respectively that makes me really appreciate what kind of ironclad family they have become despite the unfortunate "evil route" themes/underwhelming story writing. I mean, I guess they had to try and balance the choice somehow; while I'm looking forward to getting to know and play with the Hoshidan family after Conquest, I will say that strong familial connection is not, at least for me, what would cause me to choose them over Nohr.

TLDR; I think the sibling family of Nohr is what carries the poor story of Conquest and makes it meaningful. Camilla included, despite her haters.

[BruceLee]

They did a good job of showing that the Nohr Royal siblings are good people in localization. They are actively working against Garon behind his back. Leo even has a line in Chapter 14 where he says you have to appear to be good little soldiers, and that they help people behind Garon's back all the time. Overall they are good people and had a very interesting situation that got screwed over by a horrible excuse to have a conflict between Hoshido and Nohr in the second half of the story. They would of had a really interesting and good story if they kept with the idea of working behind Garon's back. Would of made for some really interesting maps too where you are caught inbetween Nohr and Hoshido fighting, and have to stop Nohr from advancing without harming x amount of Hoshidan troops.

Overall I think Conquest got screwed over because they wanted a conflict between Hoshido and Nohr, but with having a clear bad guy like Garon, it really screws everything over from the Nohr angle, while Birthright has no problem because you are already fighting Nohr.

They are mostly good to their own kin as far as i can tell, with Elise and Leo being an exception. Camilla is willing to kill people just for looking at Kamui in a wrong way.

Xander i absolutely dislike, i can't stand him. He will only stand up to his father if it's to protect his own family, but when others are getting hurt he's fine ignoring it. So many people suffer just because Xander can't deal with his daddy issues. He comes off as idiotic, selfish and an overall bad person. The game tries to tell me i'm supposed to like him, which in turn makes me unable to take the game seriously.

Edited February 25, 2016 by BruceLee

[Tolvir]

They are mostly good to their own kin as far as i can tell, with Elise and Leo being an exception. Camilla is willing to kill people just for looking at Kamui in a wrong way.

Xander is absolutely dislike, i can't stand him. He will only stand up to his father if it's to protect his own family, but when others are getting hurt he's fine ignoring it. So many people suffer just because Xander can't deal with his daddy issues. He comes off as idiotic, selfish and an overall bad person. The game tries to tell me i'm supposed to like him, which in turn makes me unable to take the game seriously.

I am not sure if you played localization or not, but they really changed that from what I have seen. As I said Leo talks about helping people behind Garon's back, and Xander is the one that sets Kaze and Rinkah free. Maybe in Birthright he is that way, but its kind of a different situation for Conquest. He really does attempt to help others in this one, as far as that can go without being executed. His loyalty to his father is more of a show than anything in this one to make Garon think he is still loyal.

The problem is with the localization change, it makes the Chapter 15 issue even bigger because with how they wrote the siblings in English. Azura could of just shown all of the siblings what Garon truly is, and they would of believed her.

Edited February 25, 2016 by Tolvir

[BruceLee]

I am not sure if you played localization or not, but they really changed that from what I have seen. As I said Leo talks about helping people behind Garon's back, and Xander is the one that sets Kaze and Rinkah free. Maybe in Birthright he is that way, but its kind of a different situation for Conquest. He really does attempt to help others in this one, as far as that can go without being executed. His loyalty to his father is more of a show than anything in this one to make Garon think he is still loyal.

The problem is with the localization change, it makes the Chapter 15 issue even bigger because with how they wrote the siblings in English. Azura could of just shown all of the siblings what Garon truly is, and they would of believed her.

I haven't actually played the localization because i live in europe lawl. I have spoiled myself with pretty much the entire Conquest story tho because the more i heard about it the less i cared. Birthright is the one i'm going into relatively blind.

Xander may make it seem like he wants to help people, but not as much as he wants to please his father. The bolded is simply not true in the japanese version, but once i see more of the localization maybe my opinion of him will change a little. Still, unless they changed a lot of major things in the localization i find it hard to believe i'll like Xander when i absolutely can't stand him in the japanese version(i hate him in both Birthright and Conquest, but more so in the latter because his idiocy and selfishness have even more bad consequences).

There are Nohr characters i like, Elise and Leo being among them. But the bad outweighs the good in this case.

edit: Oh and if it were up to Xander, Kaze and Rinkah would be dead because he wasn't gonna lift a finger to help them. It was Kamui and Leo's actions that saved them.

Edited February 25, 2016 by BruceLee

[Elieson]

How is Xander supposed to succeed the throne of his basically evil father, if he disobeys Garon and gets killed for treason?

Nohr would be doomed in its entirety of Xander outright died.

[GrayClouds23]

so is hinoka really that good? I find her underwhelming compared to Camilla. Though my friend claims she's really good.

[BruceLee]

How is Xander supposed to succeed the throne of his basically evil father, if he disobeys Garon and gets killed for treason?

Nohr would be doomed in its entirety of Xander outright died.

How is Nohr doomed without Xander. What good comes from him?

[Shadow Knight]

Meh War is war. I actually liked how she taunted Hinoka. At least Camilla actually acts like the Hoshido are her enemies. Kamui's whole "I will be the bridge between both worlds and find a way to peace even after I betrayed my birth family" case isn't really that strong. Supposedly he hasn't killed a single enemy yet.

So when I attack somebody and they run out of health what am I doing exactly? Lightly impaling them with my sword?

[GrayClouds23]

Meh War is war. I actually liked how she taunted Hinoka. At least Camilla actually acts like the Hoshido are her enemies. Kamui's whole "I will be the bridge between both worlds and find a way to peace even after I betrayed my birth family" case isn't really that strong. Supposedly he hasn't killed a single enemy yet.

So when I attack somebody and they run out of health what am I doing exactly? Lightly impaling them with my sword?

When you attack someone its like in smash, you hit them and there's no blood haha.

Nah i imagine he's hitting them with the flat end of his blade, if they werent trying to make the poses look cool. It's basic RPG logic where slashing someone dosent make they're blood and appendages spill everywhere.

[NekoKnight]

So when I attack somebody and they run out of health what am I doing exactly? Lightly impaling them with my sword?

Silly goose, people don't die when they are killed. Has Awakening taught you nothing?

Edited February 25, 2016 by NekoKnight

[BruceLee]

Meh War is war. I actually liked how she taunted Hinoka. At least Camilla actually acts like the Hoshido are her enemies. Kamui's whole "I will be the bridge between both worlds and find a way to peace even after I betrayed my birth family" case isn't really that strong. Supposedly he hasn't killed a single enemy yet.

So when I attack somebody and they run out of health what am I doing exactly? Lightly impaling them with my sword?

Maybe that kind of behaviour is excusable to you, but to me it makes her come off as a uncompassionate and petty person. If the game wants me to like her then they are doing a bad job at it with stuff like this.

Edited February 25, 2016 by BruceLee

[Shadow Knight]

Silly goose, people don't die when they are killed. Has Awakening taught you nothing?

Mustafa from chapter 10 would like a word with you. Or at least he would if he were still alive

Maybe that kind of behaviour is excusable to you, but to me it makes her come off as a uncompassionate and petty person. If the game wants me to like her then they are doing a bad job at it with stuff like this.

She's the enemy, she's trying to force you to go to a place that you don't want to (Assuming Corrin chooses Conquest), and most important of all she's trying to kill you and Camilla.

That and she made me go up three flights of stairs packed with over 20 characters who are geared towards debuffing you and set to ambush you as soon as you come out of said stairs. And she put the treasure chests on separate floors forcing careful players like me to backtrack.

She dies, no questions asked

Edited February 25, 2016 by Shadow Knight