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BruceLee

Camilla vs Hinoka (Conquest chapter 11 spoilers)

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Elise being the one who might die definitely plays a part, but the scenario also has something to do with it. When Takumi gets sick, you infiltrate an enemy building looking for medicine and killing people inside who get in your way. In Conquest, the Avatar's party are in friendly territory and heading to a building owned by Garon to get the medicine when Ryoma comes out of nowhere and starts making demands. In Birthright, they're stealing enemy medicine so that they can heal their own soldiers. That's fine. In Conquest, Ryoma has seized the building as well as the medicine inside and is ransoming it back to you. That's also fine, Nohr is the enemy after all, comparing that to Xander trying to stop an enemy from infiltrating a building under his command doesn't really work.

I don't have a problem with it from a practical perspective, war is war and taking out a healer (especially in fire emblem) is a great move. But still... I think he's in the wrong in this situation. She's a dying girl who needs medicine and he's preventing a sick person from getting help.

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My point was more that I feel people are only giving Ryouma so much crap because it was Elise that got sick, nothing else. My hypothetical scenario was to keep the situations exactly the same, except for the characters. Substitute Ryouma with Marx and Elise with Takumi or Sakura, one of the Hoshido younger siblings. Change the location to Hoshido so that Nohr is the one that had seized enemy locations, I don't really care.

I think that if it were Marx saying the exact same things as Ryouma in the exact same situations, people would be more forgiving of Marx in general. I think that if Takumi were the sibling who were sick, some people would actually say "just let him die". I think that people have more of a problem that Ryouma would've been willing to let ELISE die more than his actual actions.

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My point was more that I feel people are only giving Ryouma so much crap because it was Elise that got sick, nothing else. My hypothetical scenario was to keep the situations exactly the same, except for the characters. Substitute Ryouma with Marx and Elise with Takumi or Sakura, one of the Hoshido younger siblings. Change the location to Hoshido so that Nohr is the one that had seized enemy locations, I don't really care.

I think that if it were Marx saying the exact same things as Ryouma in the exact same situations, people would be more forgiving of Marx in general. I think that if Takumi were the sibling who were sick, some people would actually say "just let him die". I think that people have more of a problem that Ryouma would've been willing to let ELISE die more than his actual actions.

Yeah, I get what you're saying and I agree that Ryoma deserves none of the crap he gets, but I can see why people would be calling foul play on what he does. He shouldn't just give the medicine away, but he's being pretty ruthless in that scene (but I like the ruthlessness, I probably shouldn't speak for people who have a problem).

As for people not caring about Takumi, all I can see is the unholy shrieking of the googolplex of Takumi fangirls (and guys, I don't judge) screaming for Xander's head in that scenario. Some people might not care for sure, but those would be the people who don't like Takumi anyway, so eh.

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I don't have a problem with it from a practical perspective, war is war and taking out a healer (especially in fire emblem) is a great move. But still... I think he's in the wrong in this situation. She's a dying girl who needs medicine and he's preventing a sick person from getting help.

Right, it wasn't the nicest thing to do, but as the leader of an army, he needs to think practically. And Elise isn't really just an innocent little girl who is dying: the game tells us she is an adult and we should treat her as such, and she is an enemy combatant (not just a healer, since you can reclass and promote her) who can offer valuable contributions to the invasion effort. My family came from a country that was once ravaged by imperialism, so I have a bit more experience with this. Let's just say that it's unrealistic to demand those people to show sympathy for sick and injured enemy soldiers who are very likely to come back and hurt them once they recover; Elise being all cutesy shouldn't change a thing.

Yeah, I get what you're saying and I agree that Ryoma deserves none of the crap he gets, but I can see why people would be calling foul play on what he does. He shouldn't just give the medicine away, but he's being pretty ruthless in that scene (but I like the ruthlessness, I probably shouldn't speak for people who have a problem).

As for people not caring about Takumi, all I can see is the unholy shrieking of the googolplex of Takumi fangirls (and guys, I don't judge) screaming for Xander's head in that scenario. Some people might not care for sure, but those would be the people who don't like Takumi anyway, so eh.

I really liked his ruthlessness in that scene, as well; it's one of few plot points in Conquest I actually liked. For goodness sakes, he's not a saint. I really don't get what some people want with Ryoma: do nice things/be a nice person and they call him "bland" and "prince perfect," but do some not-so-nice things, or God forbid, get angry, and they are all up in arms about it without considering his motivations and circumstances. I'm now kinda understanding why the TVtropes thing happened.

Edited by Tsuky

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I really liked his ruthlessness in that scene, as well; it's one of few plot points in Conquest I actually liked. For goodness sakes, he's not a saint. I really don't get what some people want with Ryoma: do nice things/be a nice person and they call him "bland" and "prince perfect," but do some not-so-nice things, or God forbid, get angry, and they are all up in arms about it without considering his motivations and circumstances. I'm now kinda understanding why the TVtropes thing happened.

Shhhh~

We must never speak of that again.

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Guten Tag,

It is war. Camilla is born, raised in the war. She knows nothing but it. Also her father is not the best guy when it comes down to raising a child in the perspectiv of been peaceful and have mercy. It's kinda a miracle the MU isnt such a killer herself.

I mean, try to think about a sister/brother, who get's captured by your swarn enemy you are fighting since ever you could imagin. And after you get him/her back, the enemy nation trys to kill him at all cost. Wouldnt you be upset about them? Even it's Camillas trait to be so destructiv against all who want to harm her family, it's only normal if you think about it.

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Who's the real idiot here? Explain to me how stabbing someone with a pointy sword somehow means friendship and compassion?

And even so Hinoka essentially is trying to force you at spear point to come back. That's not ethical at all. If Corrin does not want to come back that is his choice. And before we say that Camilla is a horrible person let's not forget chapter 13 where

She feels horrible because Garon ordered the death of the Cheve rebels.

Please you're not even worth my time. You're trying to defend attacking someone with a spear and denying them the right to choose where they wish to live is totally ok, but Camilla making a one off remark about Corrin choosing her is somehow a horrible travesty.

Why do you even respond to my post if you're gonna completely ignore the point i'm making?

You say Hinoka is trying to kill Kamui by ''stabbing him with her pointy naginata''.

I show you examples where Kamui is ''stabbing the Hoshido siblings with his pointy sword''. Yet the game makes it abundantly clear that Kamui is not trying to kill them.

So what does that tell us about your logic?

Edited by BruceLee

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And even so Hinoka essentially is trying to force you at spear point to come back. That's not ethical at all.

I think this thread highlights a major dissonance in how much more forgiving people are towards the older Nohr siblings than they are towards the older Hoshido siblings, even when the older Nohr siblings do objectively worse things in both routes. Camilla goes full-on murderous towards both Corrin and the Hoshido army out of jealousy in Birthright 13, is perfectly willing to kill Corrin for leaving her (and attempts to do so in the stage intro), goes out of her way to hunt them down when they head for Cheve when she's informed that's where they're heading, and yet Hinoka--who spent probably close to a decade trying to get Corrin back after they were kidnapped while Camilla rubs it in her face, and who doesn't threaten to murder everyone Corrin cares about on the Nohr side and doesn't actively hunt them down--is somehow worse because she was trying to force Corrin to come back at spearpoint.

Edited by AzureSen

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I think this thread highlights a major dissonance in how much more forgiving people are towards the older Nohr siblings than they are towards the older Hoshido siblings, even when the older Nohr siblings do objectively worse things in both routes. Camilla goes full-on murderous towards both Corrin and the Hoshido army out of jealousy in Birthright 13, is perfectly willing to kill Corrin for leaving her (and attempts to do so in the stage intro), goes out of her way to hunt them down when they head for Cheve when she's informed that's where they're heading, and yet Hinoka--who spent probably close to a decade trying to get Corrin back after they were kidnapped while Camilla rubs it in her face, and who doesn't threaten to murder everyone Corrin cares about on the Nohr side and doesn't actively hunt them down--is somehow worse because she was trying to force Kamui to come back at spearpoint.

Considering how I've spoiled myself so far to the story, I'll say both girls have their ups and downs; sure, Camilla is bloodthirsty but I chalk it up to her background more than anything else. As for Hinoka, she's just being as forceful as Camilla in wanting Corrin back (but I could be wrong) except unlike the Birthright Camilla, she's not out to kill everyone out of jealousy (or maybe desperation)...I guess both sisters are just inconsiderate of Corrin's feelings as a whole...

Edited by Fyras4

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I think this thread highlights a major dissonance in how much more forgiving people are towards the older Nohr siblings than they are towards the older Hoshido siblings, even when the older Nohr siblings do objectively worse things in both routes. Camilla goes full-on murderous towards both Corrin and the Hoshido army out of jealousy in Birthright 13, is perfectly willing to kill Corrin for leaving her (and attempts to do so in the stage intro), goes out of her way to hunt them down when they head for Cheve when she's informed that's where they're heading, and yet Hinoka--who spent probably close to a decade trying to get Corrin back after they were kidnapped while Camilla rubs it in her face, and who doesn't threaten to murder everyone Corrin cares about on the Nohr side and doesn't actively hunt them down--is somehow worse because she was trying to force Corrin to come back at spearpoint.

Couldn't have said it better myself. The double standards are real.

Considering how I've spoiled myself so far to the story, I'll say both girls have their ups and downs; sure, Camilla is bloodthirsty but I chalk it up to her background more than anything else. As for Hinoka, she's just being as forceful as Camilla in wanting Corrin back (but I could be wrong) except unlike the Birthright Camilla, she's not out to kill everyone out of jealousy (or maybe desperation)...I guess both sisters are just inconsiderate of Corrin's feelings as a whole...

When does Hinoka actively hunt down Kamui? Unlike Camilla, she has the excuse that Kamui is on the side of the people that are invading her country.

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When does Hinoka actively hunt down Kamui? Unlike Camilla, she has the excuse that Kamui is on the side of the people that are invading her country.

I never said she was (and if I did I might have worded it wrong).

Besides, doesn't she confront Corrin like...twice in the game? (Just like Camilla) Except she's not actively seeking him/her out, she's defending places.

Edited by Fyras4

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Couldn't have said it better myself. The double standards are real.

Not to mention that at least Hinoka has a reason to doubt Corrin's feelings. Corrin just went back to the country that tried to kill them, killed her beloved mother and father, destroyed a chunk of their capital city, killed a bunch of civilians, nearly killed her older brother, and wiped their memories of their life prior to Nohr.

(Wow, there's a lot more reasoning for Corrin not siding with Nohr than I remember; this is all just from pre-choice.)

Edited by AzureSen

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I think that Mikoto and Sumeragi are the biggest reasons to side with Hoshido when you get down to the core of the matter. Both of them died to save Kamui, and Kamui saw both of those deaths happen (even if it took them a while to remember Sumeragi's death). And, really, I feel that while everyone remembers Mikoto a lot of people tend to forget that Sumeragi pulled that sacrifice shit, too, before the story started.

Kamui seems to be the reason both Mikoto and Sumeragi are dead. Both of them died to protect Kamui, depriving the other four Hoshido siblings of their parents. Sometimes, I'm kind of surprised Ryouma, Hinoka, and Sakura aren't a little bit resentful of Kamui for that.

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Besides, doesn't she confront Corrin like...twice in the game? (Just like Camilla) Except she's not actively seeking him/her out, she's defending places.

Like you say, Nohr is the invader, Hoshido is the one being invaded, and Kamui is actively participating in the invasion.
It's not as simple as saying they both battled Kamui twice.

Not to mention that at least Hinoka has a reason to doubt Corrin's feelings. Corrin just went back to the country that tried to kill them, killed her beloved mother and father, destroyed a chunk of their capital city, killed a bunch of civilians, nearly killed her older brother, and wiped their memories of their life prior to Nohr.

(Wow, there's a lot more reasoning for Corrin not siding with Nohr than I remember; this is all just from pre-choice.)

Exactly. How people can sympathize with Nohr more than Hoshido is beyond me.

I think that Mikoto and Sumeragi are the biggest reasons to side with Hoshido when you get down to the core of the matter. Both of them died to save Kamui, and Kamui saw both of those deaths happen (even if it took them a while to remember Sumeragi's death). And, really, I feel that while everyone remembers Mikoto a lot of people tend to forget that Sumeragi pulled that sacrifice shit, too, before the story started.

Kamui seems to be the reason both Mikoto and Sumeragi are dead. Both of them died to protect Kamui, depriving the other four Hoshido siblings of their parents. Sometimes, I'm kind of surprised Ryouma, Hinoka, and Sakura aren't a little bit resentful of Kamui for that.

Any sane person in the Hoshido siblings' shoes would never forgive Kamui after he chooses to return to the people invading their country right after getting their mother killed. Let alone after all the other shit that happens after that.

Edited by BruceLee

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I think that Mikoto and Sumeragi are the biggest reasons to side with Hoshido when you get down to the core of the matter. Both of them died to save Kamui, and Kamui saw both of those deaths happen (even if it took them a while to remember Sumeragi's death). And, really, I feel that while everyone remembers Mikoto a lot of people tend to forget that Sumeragi pulled that sacrifice shit, too, before the story started.

Kamui seems to be the reason both Mikoto and Sumeragi are dead. Both of them died to protect Kamui, depriving the other four Hoshido siblings of their parents. Sometimes, I'm kind of surprised Ryouma, Hinoka, and Sakura aren't a little bit resentful of Kamui for that.

Sumeragi I can understand, because Garon's the big one responsible and to them Kamui was just another victim of his evil, being as good as dead for many years. Plus, Takumi and Sakura were too young to remember/weren't born yet, while it seems like Ryoma and Hinoka were old enough to know not to blame Kamui. But yeah, the fact that no one other than Takumi is a little more distrustful or resentful of Kamui after Mikoto was killed with Kamui's weapon is a little odd. (But then again, it may again be the "also a victim" thing at work given how torn up Kamui is.) And it makes a little more sense on the Hoshido route, mostly because Kamui has resolved to stand with them against Garon and get revenge for their mother. Now the fact that this never comes up in Conquest beyond Takumi is another story...

Exactly. How people can sympathize with Nohr more than Hoshido is beyond me.

It's mostly because of the siblings from what I've seen. Which I don't understand given their characterization in either route but especially Birthright alone. Xander makes it clear he doesn't see Garon as evil nor does he believe Kamui's claims regarding Garon's assassination attempt, Camilla goes into murder mode out of jealousy, and in general both of them seem far more dismissive of Kamui's feelings than Ryoma and Hinoka on Conquest for reasons that amount to "our little brother could never willingly betray us! He must be brainwashed/seduced away by those filthy Hoshidans!"

Edited by AzureSen

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I think this thread highlights a major dissonance in how much more forgiving people are towards the older Nohr siblings than they are towards the older Hoshido siblings, even when the older Nohr siblings do objectively worse things in both routes. Camilla goes full-on murderous towards both Corrin and the Hoshido army out of jealousy in Birthright 13, is perfectly willing to kill Corrin for leaving her (and attempts to do so in the stage intro), goes out of her way to hunt them down when they head for Cheve when she's informed that's where they're heading, and yet Hinoka--who spent probably close to a decade trying to get Corrin back after they were kidnapped while Camilla rubs it in her face, and who doesn't threaten to murder everyone Corrin cares about on the Nohr side and doesn't actively hunt them down--is somehow worse because she was trying to force Corrin to come back at spearpoint.

Thank you for pointing that out.

The majority are Nohr supporters and when the trailer first came out the answers were overwhelmingly Nohr. Now that's all fine and dandy since everyone can have their preferences but the problem is all these Nohr supporters are giving Hoshido crap for even the littlest things while Nohr can get away with these things just fine.

When Hoshido acts nice:

They are too "perfectly pure" therfor booooring

*You present their flaws.

OMG they are fucking assholess, burn Takumi, burn Hinoka ect...

Nohr acts nice

OMG I want to marry them because they support me like no other

*Presents that Nohr royals have the same flaws as Hoshidians

OMG Nohr royals are so interesting and dynamic because of that

I was just going to be a quiet Hoshido supporter but with all that crap they recieve I had to say something. That said, I don't dislike the Nohrian royals but their fans are getting hypocritical as fuck.

About Camilla, I think she just wanted to taunt Hinoka since Hinoka is kinda her "personal rival". Don't see anything wrong with that.

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I was just going to be a quiet Hoshido supporter but with all that crap they recieve I had to say something. That said, I don't dislike the Nohrian royals but their fans are getting hypocritical as fuck.

I'm almost certain that it's not even a majority of Nohr fans but a VERY vocal minority that feel that way. That said, I do agree with people who are saying there is a double standard between Nohr and Hoshido and how the fandom views them. Why does one side have to be objectively "right" anyway?

And before anyone brings up the "well the STORY is glorifying Hoshido and it's annoying" I agree with that. But that doesn't make it any less annoying when YOU hold and tout another type of double standard around either.

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I just personally think Nohr gets more hate than it deserves, especially since overall its major problems are due to bad writing more than anything. Garon should of been a questionable bad guy, one that left you questioning whether he was actually evil, or maybe he is or was good. They had a really good motivation set up, they just didn't seem to want to take it. Nohr is supposed to be the poorer country that has constant problems with drought and famine. That alone would of been a good motivation for an invasion of Hoshido, where Garon invades not because of glory and warmongering, but because his people are dying, and something needs to be done. Nohr overall should of been a questionable situation as to whether they are good or bad, but unfortunately IS isn't good at writing situations like that. So in the long run, Nohr and the Conquest story really got the short end of the stick due to bad writing.

Edited by Tolvir

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When you consider the fact that it can be hard for neutral medical help to get to warzones in our own world, it seems rather ridiculous to think that the enemy faction is going to do anything but outright prevent supplies--medical or otherwise--from getting to those they are fighting. That's just smart warfare. The more enemies that get killed by outside things--starvation, injury of disease, etc--the less your army actually has to risk itself to achieve victory. Nobody comes away smelling like roses in a war, generally speaking. War brings out the worst in people. Controlling supply routes is a smart strategy for lowering your own side's death toll, and for potentially increasing the likeliness of surrender if you can freeze the enemy's supply intake well / long enough.

I definitely agree that there is a double standard between Hoshido and Nohr--it favors Hoshido from the developers standpoiunt, and it favors Nohr from (the more vocal) Nohr fans standpooint.

Personally, I don't pay a great deal of attention or give a lot of credence to what the writers try to "tell" me Kamui feels about the situations s/he is in. I read them. I know what they are. I know the problems they present for the story by being there. But I also know they -shouldn't- have been there and were, generally, a really big mistake.

On one hand, I didn't expect Fates to have a multiple choice character development format like Dragon Age, Elder Scrolls, etc. On the other, I don't think nearly as much telling the player what "they" felt was necessary. People are generally smart enough to reach their own conclusions about how their character felt about what their character *did*. (Which is a whole other matter--it was vital that they had Kamui do things. Unfortunately, they didn't think that too well through either. Pity.)

Going in I was 100% Nohr all the way. Then my brother wanted to get to borrow one of my games once they arrived, and being a nice sister I let him choose which. He chose Nohr, which means that I've started with Birthright. I think that was for the best. It helped me have a deeper understanding of those characters and their plight, and I believe it will make playing the other campaign a much richer experience for me. Will I end up preferring the Birthright characters when all is said and done, or will I still prefer Nohr? (To be clear: I'm currently very neutral--there are a lot of fantastic characters in Birthright once you get to know them.) I am very intrigued and am eager to find out. Right now it could really go either way.

Fortunately, whether it goes either or neither I'm not the sort of person who likes one group of characters at the expense of another. I really have nothing to lose and am being compelled at this point by sheer curiosity.

Edited by Katryn

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I just personally think Nohr gets more hate than it deserves, especially since overall its major problems are due to bad writing more than anything. Garon should of been a questionable bad guy, one that left you questioning whether he was actually evil, or maybe he is or was good. They had a really good motivation set up, they just didn't seem to want to take it. Nohr is supposed to be the poorer country that has constant problems with drought and famine. That alone would of been a good motivation for an invasion of Hoshido, where Garon invades not because of glory and warmongering, but because his people are dying, and something needs to be done. Nohr overall should of been a questionable situation as to whether they are good or bad, but unfortunately IS isn't good at writing situations like that. So in the long run, Nohr and the Conquest story really got the short end of the stick due to bad writing.

You hit the nail on the thread there, mate, and people have been saying this for months. It's not like we WANT to dislike Nohr; I went in fully expecting to save the best for last when I started with Birthright, but that simply wasn't the case.

However, as it stands, choosing Nohr comes across as a downright stupid choice - and really, it continues being the objectively worst for the rest of the game. Now, that would've been completely fine if the narrative itself could treat it as such; I wouldn't mind playing an egotistic Corrin who follows a misguided king, but that's not what was given to us.

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Why do you even respond to my post if you're gonna completely ignore the point i'm making?

You say Hinoka is trying to kill Kamui by ''stabbing him with her pointy naginata''.

I show you examples where Kamui is ''stabbing the Hoshido siblings with his pointy sword''. Yet the game makes it abundantly clear that Kamui is not trying to kill them.

So what does that tell us about your logic?

Because you're missing the point entirely. It doesn't matter whether or or not you intend to kill someone, if you use a lethal weapon than you are putting their life at risk.

Just ask yourself one question would you ever point a gun at your brother? Would you shoot it at your brother? Would you try to stab your brother?

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Because you're missing the point entirely. It doesn't matter whether or or not you intend to kill someone, if you use a lethal weapon than you are putting their life at risk.

Just ask yourself one question would you ever point a gun at your brother? Would you shoot it at your brother? Would you try to stab your brother?

I think you're forgetting one small thing. We're not discussing real life, we're discussing fire emblem's logic. If you're saying that the game's logic is stupid when it comes to stabbing people yet not killing them then i agree with you. But you can't use that as an argument that Hinoka is trying to kill Kamui because the game contradicts that logic.

Edited by BruceLee

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Because you're missing the point entirely. It doesn't matter whether or or not you intend to kill someone, if you use a lethal weapon than you are putting their life at risk.

Just ask yourself one question would you ever point a gun at your brother? Would you shoot it at your brother? Would you try to stab your brother?

Hinoka arguably had no intent to kill when she pointed her naginata at Corrin; Camilla had every intention of killing Corrin and all of Corrin's allies when she attacked them. And yet somehow Hinoka is the bad guy?

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Hinoka arguably had no intent to kill when she pointed her naginata at Corrin; Camilla had every intention of killing Corrin and all of Corrin's allies when she attacked them. And yet somehow Hinoka is the bad guy?

She chose to use a deadly weapon against her "brother." I'm not arguing that Camilla is any better than Hinoka, only that a one off insult during the heat of battle isn't a reason to say crucify the woman.

I think you're forgetting one small thing. We're not discussing real life, we're discussing fire emblem's logic. If you're saying that the game's logic is stupid when it comes to stabbing people yet not killing them then i agree with you. But you can't use that as an argument that Hinoka is trying to kill Kamui because the game contradicts that logic.

You're right, logic is annoying when it doesn't work for you. Or at least that's what I'm told. I wouldn't know that feeling. All you've done so far is hurl insults. But even using the game's logic you're still wrong. We know what happens if Hinoka depletes your health in the game. You die.

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