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Aestury

Opinion on M/M and F/F Options

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While I have no particularattachment to the kids, I don't think they need prevent gay marriage from becoming a thing, should FE choose to continue having children in future FEs. Surrogate mothers and sperm donors do exist! And about the only thing passed down which has to be genetic is manakete/beastperson/etc. blood... which as long as you assume the manakete parent is the biological parent, isn't a problem. Everything else which gets passed down (stats, skills) could just as easily be nurture as nature, and I'd argue makes more sense as the former, in fact. This is far, far less mental gymnastics than the mechanics needed for the kids to fight alongside their parents in the first place.

Considering you put your kids in a magical baby realm to grow up in Fates, I think magic gay babies isn't that far out there either haha

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Considering you put your kids in a magical baby realm to grow up in Fates, I think magic gay babies isn't that far out there either haha

My only thing is I don't know if they're advanced enough to do sperm donors and such.

They could do an easy thing though - similar to the bond unit mechanic. Basically a Kamui baby born out of the ground from dragon magic.

Boom. Done.

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Revelation Chapter 24 says hello

Your daily reminder that for how much they bent over backwards to remove incest implications in Fates, they still kept THAT in.

My only thing is I don't know if they're advanced enough to do sperm donors and such.

They could do an easy thing though - similar to the bond unit mechanic. Basically a Kamui baby born out of the ground from dragon magic.

Boom. Done.

Dragons are of the water element. All Mamui has to do is deposit some of his seeds in a glass of water and POOF instant Kana.

On the subject of hacks, I'm going to need Ryoma x Scarlet to become a thing...like now.

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Your daily reminder that for how much they bent over backwards to remove incest implications in Fates, they still kept THAT in.

Dragons are of the water element. All Mamui has to do is deposit some of his seeds in a glass of water and POOF instant Kana.

On the subject of hacks, I'm going to need Ryoma x Scarlet to become a thing...like now.

You mean like a sea monkey?

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Your daily reminder that for how much they bent over backwards to remove incest implications in Fates, they still kept THAT in.

My only hope now is the Hidden Truths DLC and that Kamui was created the same way Lilith was. But then that would only further ruin the theme of blood vs. bonds, so there's no winning here.

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Your daily reminder that for how much they bent over backwards to remove incest implications in Fates, they still kept THAT in.

[spoiler=Story DLC spoiler]Still not as weird as your dragon sister serving you as a maid your entire life.

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On children in same-sex marriage: adoption exists too. Heck, that would make more sense than the timey-wimey stuff, and adopting grown-up kids could open some interesting support options. Incidentally, right now I'm imagining a lot of orphans lined up for the happy couple to pick the kid with just the right hair color (I have horrible sense of humor.)

Bit of an old topic, but to whoever suggested Forrest as a gay option: I think this would be bad idea because it could have unfortunate implications about two unconnected minorities. Also Forrest's fine just the way he is, as gimmicky as he is, he's handled pretty tastefully considering the medium he appears in (I think making him gay would make hurt his character due to the stupid "crossdresser gay" trope).

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The whole samesex stuff is just stupid imo. They should just leave the characters the way they are M/F. I think the incest is really weird as well.

How ignorant. I can sum up your character easily just from these words.

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On children in same-sex marriage: adoption exists too. Heck, that would make more sense than the timey-wimey stuff, and adopting grown-up kids could open some interesting support options. Incidentally, right now I'm imagining a lot of orphans lined up for the happy couple to pick the kid with just the right hair color (I have horrible sense of humor.)

Bit of an old topic, but to whoever suggested Forrest as a gay option: I think this would be bad idea because it could have unfortunate implications about two unconnected minorities. Also Forrest's fine just the way he is, as gimmicky as he is, he's handled pretty tastefully considering the medium he appears in (I think making him gay would make hurt his character due to the stupid "crossdresser gay" trope).

Also, having a m/m option who looks like a woman sort of ruins the point.

"Traps" are one of those Anime tropes that I really just don't see the appeal or point of. He seems a decent enough character from his supports though.

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The whole samesex stuff is just stupid imo. They should just leave the characters the way they are M/F. I think the incest is really weird as well.

Yikes please don't say that

unless you have an actual argument for why its stupid then please go on I would love to hear that

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[spoiler=Revelation spoilers duh]

I see talk of how Azura and Corrin being related being kept was a bad thing, but could you provide a reason why?

Just because it's incest doesn't mean that it's terrible. For Azura and Corrin, it doesn't really hurt anything. I'm actually pretty glad it stayed tbh.

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Well I've married Niles 2 times already, so I obviously like him quite a bit. I think he is pretty well written from the supports I've seen.

Rhajat on the other hand is a clone of a character I disliked in the first place so unfortunately she was the worst case scenario for a lesbian option for me.

My ideal options would have been Reina, Oboro, Azura, Silas, Kaden, and Odin.

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[spoiler=Revelation spoilers duh]

I see talk of how Azura and Corrin being related being kept was a bad thing, but could you provide a reason why?

Just because it's incest doesn't mean that it's terrible. For Azura and Corrin, it doesn't really hurt anything. I'm actually pretty glad it stayed tbh.

bf1.png

-It ruins the mood of the entire scene. Both Arete's death and Sumeragi's death were appropriately sad and heartwarming and Mikoto's was looking to be the same, but then she mentions her relationship with Arete and now the entire mood is ruined because you're now thinking about something other than you're mother's death.

-The delivery is awful. One moment she's talking about how she loves all her children and within two lines you're finding out that you married, fucked and had children with your cousin. It's a very jarring change of topic and mood.

-There's no foreshadowing. At least on Conquest, the magical throne was mention in Chapter 5 and you know they wouldn't bring it up unless it was important. This reveal comes out of nowhere and feels very forced and shoehorned in, as if they wanted a shocking swerve for the sake of it.

-It never gets brought up after the reveal. Not during the coronation and not during Kamui and Azura's conversation at the lake, making it a big-lipped alligator moment and again, a shocking swerve for the sake of it.

-It does nothing to serve the plot or move it forward. Say what you will about the crystal ball, slime!Garon and the Third Route as a whole, but they at the very least serve a purpose. Kamui and Azura being cousins contributes nothing to the plot at all, save for an 'interesting' bit of trivia about Mikoto and Arete. I've seen someone mention that it was so that Kamui has a blood claim to the throne, but that really doesn't matter because a) the only other person who has a birthright to the throne is Azura, and she willingly abdicates her right to rule if you don't marry her, b) you might've married her, so you have a claim to the throne by marriage and c) who's going to complain if Kamui takes the throne? No surviving civilians are ever shown and if the ones that did have any objections, wouldn't it be that Kamui is the son/daughter of the dragon that destroyed the entire Kingdom rather than Kamui not being of royal descent? This is arguably the only moment in the entire game that is completely, 100% pointless.

-Even though Blood vs. Bonds was one of the main themes of the advertisement, they still made it that the Hoshido siblings aren't related to you by blood so that you can S-Rank them, so why would they make Kamui and Azura cousins if they're very blatantly the 'canon' pairing? They went through all those mental gymnastics to justify no incest for them, but making your canon pairing first cousins is a-okay apparently. Them supposedly being your brothers and sisters by birth only makes it worse, since they were perfectly willing to break the blood vs. bonds theme over their knee to justify you romancing them, but what do they lose by making Kamui and Azura not related?

-Treehouse had to change maybe five lines of dialogue tops, in one chapter of the game to remove the incest aspect of the relationship and considering that they censored Owain x Lucina, I see no reason why they wouldn't unless they've done something with the Hidden Truths DLC, and doing that potentially jeopardises Kamui's relationship with Mikoto.

I rant all day every day about why it was a dumb thing to do, but those are the main reasons.

Edited by Phillius

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bf1.png

-It ruins the mood of the entire scene. Both Arete's death and Sumeragi's death were appropriately sad and heartwarming and Mikoto's was looking to be the same, but then she mentions her relationship with Arete and now the entire mood is ruined because you're now thinking about something other than you're mothers death.

-The delivery is awful. One moment she's talking about how she loves all her children and within two lines you're finding out that you married, fucked and had children with your cousin. It's a very jarring change of topic and mood.

-There's no foreshadowing. At least on Conquest, the magical throne was mention in Chapter 5 and you know they wouldn't bring it up unless it was important. This reveal comes out of nowhere and feels very forced and shoehorned in, as if they wanted a shocking swerve for the sake of it.

-It never gets brought up after the reveal. After the reveal, it never gets brought up. Not during the coronation and not during Kamui and Azura's conversation at the lake, making it a big-lipped alligator moment and again, a shocking swerve for the sake of it.

-It does nothing to serve the plot or move it forward. Say what you will about the crystal ball, slime!Garon and the Third Route as a whole, but they at the very least serve a purpose. Kamui and Azura being cousins contributes nothing to the plot at all, save for an 'interesting' bit of trivia about Mikoto and Arete. I've seen someone mention that it was so that Kamui has a blood claim to the throne, but that really doesn't matter because a) the only other person who has a birthright to the throne is Azura, and she willingly abdicates to rule if you don't marry her, b) you might've married her, so you have a claim to the throne by marriage and c) who's going to complain if Kamui takes the throne? No surviving civilians are ever shown and wouldn't they be more pissed that Kamui is the son/daughter of the dragon that destroyed the entire Kingdom than Kamui not being of royal descent? This is arguably the only moment in the entire game that is completely, 100% pointless.

-Even though Blood vs. Bonds was one of the main themes of the advertisement, they still made it that the Hoshido siblings aren't related to you by blood so that you can S-Rank them, so why would they make Kamui and Azura cousins if they're very blatantly the 'canon' pairing? They went through all those mental gymnastics to justify no incest for them, but making your canon pairing first cousins is a-okay apparently. Them supposedly being your brothers and sisters by birth only makes it worse, since they were perfectly willing to break the blood vs. bonds theme over their knee to justify you romancing them, but what do they lose by making Kamui and Azura not related?

-Treehouse had to change maybe five lines of dialogue tops, in one chapter of the game to remove the incest aspect of the relationship and considering that they censored Owain x Lucina, I see no reason why they wouldn't unless they've done something with the Hidden Truths DLC, and doing that potentially jeopardises Kamui's relationship with Mikoto.

I rant all day every day about why it was a dumb thing to do, but those are the main reasons.

Building off point 5:

Fire Emblem typically has a mindset of of "you conquered it, you own it." Killing Anankos would be reason enough for Corrin to ascend. And considering that Anankos was stated to be a tyrant, I honestly think the people would be overjoyed to have him gone and not particularly care if their "real" heir takes the throne or not.

First-cousin marriage is legal in Japan--and even parts of America--so it doesn't really stop the "intended canoness" of the ship, but it's poorly handled and just very confusing as to why they included it at all because it doesn't add anything to the story. Even moreso is why Treehouse left it in when they nixed Owain/Lucina and Asugi/Midori, and those were side characters. Corrin and Azura are the main duo of Fates, you're far more likely to pair them up than the other two couples.

It doesn't stop me from shipping it, but I wish they'd either handled the cousins thing better or just not included it at all.

Edited by Abvora

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I believe I this discussion has been brought up as a tertiary issue in another thread, and my opinion hasn't changed much since then. Both Niles and Rhajat are fine for the homosexual options. They're both reasonably well fleshed out, and there's no reason why the gay options have to be perfect role models, which some people seem to be pushing for to lesser and greater degrees. I'm likewise against IS ever going the route of just making huge swathes of the roster swing for whatever the MU happens to be, it's ridiculously immersion breaking for me and feels like low-grade pandering.

I'm also against the adoption route. Many of the FE games are centered around lineage, with a child's inherited skills and attributes being a prime mechanical example of this. Adoption would be just as hackneyed as the deeprealms, if not more so, and would basically again just be a way to pander to people by removing the consequences of their choices.

I think in the end my only complaint might be that the f/f option is a clone, but even that might not really be one if there were enough people who wanted Tharja to be gay in the last game.

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Regarding this topic, I'm pretty much really happy there are options at all. It's a nice step in one direction since representation or whatever since I am gay.
Anyway, I couldn't care less about the characters they gave the options to. They're not too much to my liking in that sort of way.
I got more options playing as a straight Corrin. Does that make the M/M+F/F options redundant to me though? Absolutely not!

I agree that it'd be nice if there were just a couple (or a handful) more options as mentioned numerous times before.

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I'm wondering why they didn't make the corrinsexuals bi either. They already can only marry Corrin so why not let them marry both genders?

I somewhat agree with that fact that they should marry Corrin either way.

At the same time, I dislike the fact that there are some characters that ONLY support with Corrin

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I think these characters are bisexual because it's not farfetched. Tharja and female Robin's supports don't really suggest platonic feelings. And Niles' personality is already quite sexual so expanding on that even further with him being bi seems believable enough

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I know people have explained it to no end, but even just after completing Soleil's paralogue and reading her initial supports with Laslow and her mom, I found it stupid she isn't a F/F marriage option. It practically feels like her personality was designed as a F/F marriage option, and then at the last minute they were like, "Nah, everybody loves Tharja from Awakening, let's just make it so that everyone can marry a new Tharja. Just make Soleil magically change her mind and marry a dude."

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I somewhat agree with that fact that they should marry Corrin either way.

At the same time, I dislike the fact that there are some characters that ONLY support with Corrin

Yeah, and at times it makes no sense why they can only support with Corrin.

Considering FloraxJakob and CrimsonxRyoma are a thing.

I would have loved if they allowed Reina and Gunter to support in Revelations.

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