Fates Character Opinions Survey Tier List; Revelations Survey Up

[SatsumaFSoysoy]

Not sure how arthurs growths are bad, 70% skill ties for the highest growth in the game, fat as hell atk/def/hp and enough speed to never get doubled.

Arthurs bases are pretty mediocore but his growths are minmaxed as hell.

Edit: When the hell did low luck unit AI manipulation become "bad for baiting"???

It's not about his low Luck. It's not like his defenses are super good, so there are better choices in that department. Also, his shaky damage output means you won't even be profiting much from the counterattack most of the time.

Edited March 1, 2016 by SatsumaFSoysoy

[FluffyWarlock]

What about Revelation?

[Elieson]

Why in the seven hells would you want a low luck unit to "manipulate the AI", knowing full damn well that the worst case scenario just might mean a reset???

Rigging a survival attempt vs a 2% crit chance vs a 75% accurate attack isn't exactly the most horrible thing in the world, you know.

If you're trying to burst through the game quickly and/or draw in a threat with a unit that can take a hit (just not a crit), it's a legit strat.

[Shadow Mir]

Rigging a survival attempt vs a 2% crit chance vs a 75% accurate attack isn't exactly the most horrible thing in the world, you know.

If you're trying to burst through the game quickly and/or draw in a threat with a unit that can take a hit (just not a crit), it's a legit strat.

You do realize that even a 1% crit chance is unacceptable in my book if the crit going off means a reset...? *facepalms and shakes his head in disgust*

[Zerosabers]

Arthur is doing alright in my playthrough so far as a Dread fighter. He held off the right side of the map solo without pair up.

[Elieson]

You do realize that even a 1% crit chance is unacceptable in my book if the crit going off means a reset...? *facepalms and shakes his head in disgust*

considering that there are times in which enemies have Killer weaponry, which have crit on all of your units....

[Shadow Mir]

considering that there are times in which enemies have Killer weaponry, which have crit on all of your units....

Well, that's pretty much unavoidable. But I'm talking about a unit who faces crit chances from even the rank and file who aren't either in boosted crit classes or using boosted crit weapons... THAT is practically unacceptable unless they're super tanky and can shrug it off.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Espinosa]

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Nah, LTC has no use for Arthur as a combat unit other than earlygame chip + Attack Stance with the Hand Axe.

[Dark Holy Elf]

You can deal with enemy Killer weapons by purposefully tanking them with higher-Def (etc.) units, who will survive even if they receive the critical. Since Killer weapons have low might and aren't very common on the enemy end, this is generally easy to do. You don't actually just let enemies with Killers attack people they will kill on a crit, do you?

A unit who has low chance to cause you resets on everything is problematic. There are ways to patch this up, of course (Bronze weapons, supports, Goddess Icons, and in Arthur's case we should specifically mention Percy's personal skill) but at base I don't think "accepting 3% crits to save you turns" is a strategy I'm willing to get behind.

Leo's easily S up there with Cam, Corncob, Xander, and Azura tbh. With speedwings and C10 Draco he's basically res-targeting Xander. Physical bulk isn't quite as ridiculous but he has high res and good def along with a huge HP count.

I dunno, I've found that Corrin and Camilla can come pretty close to matching Leo's MAtk with their magic weapons, with similar-to-better bulk (depending on how much we care about Res) and better speed, AND can do many other things besides. (And they don't need valuable stat boosters to do it, either.) The gaps between tiers are arbitrary, of course, so this doesn't prove that Leo isn't an S, but I think he brings convincingly less to the table than the other units people generally consider to be there (with the exception of Effie, who is too different for me to compare directly).

[XeKr]

fwiw you don't even need Paladin Jakob for the trivial clear. I just 6 turned/3 village'd it w/ Ninja Cornflakes (a good 1-2 range Corncob like Spellcaster or Dark Mage might work as well) and co. since I got curious. Only slightly unreliable part is that the boss has to miss a 56% displayed Nos hit. Regardless, the proposition of Odin getting 4 levels in this map is comical. Even if he got 30 xp Per kill, that's still like 12 enemies he has to ORKO for 4 levels or ~8 enemies and the bosskill.

edited for clarification

I’m kinda liking Ninja more and more, though what I tried was still reclassing Jakob first and building Corrin’s weapon rank during C10. Camilla/Jakob still carry until Ninja really starts to matter. Less Shelter makes me kinda sad though.

It sucks we can’t go +Str Cav and Buddy/Marry Seal Ninja in time for Chapter 17 (I think. edit: hmm maybe with paralogues..).

Nah, LTC has no use for Arthur as a combat unit other than earlygame chip + Attack Stance with the Hand Axe.

Apparently Odin saves turns, didn’t you know?

Edited March 1, 2016 by XeKr

[Shephen]

I don't think the lists should be based off LTC since then in Birthright you end up with Subaki > Hinoka since he joins first and they are interchangeable everywhere else. We can even get Saizo to replicate all of Ryoma's feats in the late game so Ryoma technically doesn't save any turns. Granted it takes a lot planning, but it can be done(I guess also Kaze to an extent). Also ends up with Hinata/Rinka/Oboro being better than like half the cast just because of Shove/Swap which saves turns and rescue uses.

Then again, the hardest part of tier lists is always the criteria by which we are judging units by.

[Radiant Dragon]

Subaki > Hinoka would depend on how much Subaki can do with that extra availability, though. If I remember correctly, Hinoka joins only two or three chapters after Subaki, and I don't think that flying is too important in the chapters in between, but I don't remember those chapters at all at the moment. But if Hinoka is that much better than Subaki when they both exist, the contributions Subaki makes before she joins would have to outweigh that.

EDIT: Just figured out why I can't remember the chapters between their recruitments, and that's because aren't any. Hinoka joins the chapter immediately after Subaki does, and while he is good in Chapter 7 due to having the highest move on the team (and probably saves at least a turn), Hinoka probably wins overall.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Radiant Dragon

[Espinosa]

I don't think the lists should be based off LTC since then in Birthright you end up with Subaki > Hinoka since he joins first and they are interchangeable everywhere else. We can even get Saizo to replicate all of Ryoma's feats in the late game so Ryoma technically doesn't save any turns. Granted it takes a lot planning, but it can be done(I guess also Kaze to an extent). Also ends up with Hinata/Rinka/Oboro being better than like half the cast just because of Shove/Swap which saves turns and rescue uses.

Then again, the hardest part of tier lists is always the criteria by which we are judging units by.

You know your way around Birthright efficiency better than anyone else, but don't Hinoka's superior combat parameters enable her to perform more demanding tasks than Subaki is capable of? Higher str/def, mag that uses the Bolt Naginata with fewer investments, speed that doubles on enemy phase with ease (Subaki relies on Darting Blow on PP), C rank lances, you name it.

I think the tendency in tier lists has been towards casual(-ish) efficiency and reliability for a long time by now? Balls-to-the-wall LTC runners have traditionally had important observations to share while usually being aware how replicable their results are for the average player.

But yeah, "shaves off a turn" is a bullshit argument that needn't be present in a tier list, especially if it's something like a single shove.

[XeKr]

I don't think the lists should be based off LTC since then in Birthright you end up with Subaki > Hinoka since he joins first and they are interchangeable everywhere else. We can even get Saizo to replicate all of Ryoma's feats in the late game so Ryoma technically doesn't save any turns. Granted it takes a lot planning, but it can be done(I guess also Kaze to an extent). Also ends up with Hinata/Rinka/Oboro being better than like half the cast just because of Shove/Swap which saves turns and rescue uses.

Then again, the hardest part of tier lists is always the criteria by which we are judging units by.

How much of that can be done reliably?

I think there’s no place for rigging when evaluating/ranking characters, for the same reason averages have been used, ever since people started discussing FE seriously. Any lucky/unlucky personal experience has no place in tiering discussion.

Personally, I may favor a faster standard than many others, but I’m probably also one of the strongest advocates for highly reliable clears. I think this playstyle is highly applicable to discussing what characters are “good”, because it involves units that can kill a lot of enemies (and complete the game) very quickly and reliably. I don’t think it’s controversial to suggest that’s good in FE.

I think Hinoka might be a tiny bit overrated, but I don't think Subaki can replicate everything she does (reliably). The optimal deployment argument is pretty dead (no one likes it), so in situations where Hinoka is needed as more of a combat unit she wins easily.

[Shephen]

There isn't any large enough statistical difference between the two of them early on in LTC. Steel Lances don't get used till chapter 11, where they face WTD and don't get weapon rank bonuses. The Bolt Naginata isn't used for a whole lot of orkoing until chapter 19 against the 0 res enemies. Until then it is just some nice chip and potentially finishing off enemies. Subaki saves a turn in chapter 7 and technically 1x if done before Hinoka's recruitment. If done afterwards, then one or the other would get deployed and do the same thing of helping Saizo rout the top portion. Both have to used in 8, 9, 10, 11 for routing purposes. They have to hit the same offensive bench-marks for 11 both needing 27 Atk and 17 Spd. Guard Stance bonuses, tonics and forges(Even if you didn't get the lance gem starting off) make it really easy to hit those marks. One of them has to be promoted for the 1 turn of 12 and the rescue skip of 14. The other has to build up their bulk to survive the Merchant in 19. Both can help with the 2-turn of 17, the 1-turn of 20, and both are needed to 1 turn 21. Both are needed to help with routing 22 for the 2/3 turn. Which ever one built up their bulk is needed to rescue Scarlett for the 3/4 turn of 23 and the other is need to help route the right side. Either one is needed to rescue skip 24 for the 1 turn and to take part of the 1 turn of 27. Also one of them needs to Rally Speed Ryoma in E.

Both do pretty much the same things until one of them has to promote in 12 and the other has to build up bulk and take the Spirit Dust dump. Either one can do it easily. If using LTC to tier, then Subaki is better than Hinoka since he saves turns before she joins and both do the same things and are interchangeable. But in everything non-LTC Subaki is worse than Hinoka in like everything.

How much of that can be done reliably?

All of it is done reliably. Rinka gets Shove in 14. Hinata gets it in 19. Saizo could get Vantage from 17/18 after using an Arms Scroll as a Master Ninja for both weapon ranks.

[Terrador]

While I absolutely can't speak to LTC for this game in any granular way (I've been playing L both rounds, which is very LTC unfriendly and beyond me to route at all for the time being if I even had the inclination), Tsubaki really doesn't win anything over Hinoka in Chapter 6; it's all indoors, and although he does fly, there are a pile of yumi and he's not very bulky, so his ability to leapfrog is sharply limited. If anything, his gains over Hinoka are almost entirely in Chapter 7, and even then, that begs the question: Why not burn a little bit of early EXP to let him accomplish whatever you need in C7 for your route, then lean primarily on Hinoka and Silas for your high-movement needs?

[FEF]

I've been saying for a long time tier lists need to stop being based on efficiency, at least as a default assumption. There's an in-built presumption that what makes the game faster makes it easier, but that's not always true, especially once we start getting into territory where "Well, this unit makes this map faster, if you're willing to put up with a 50% chance of dying to this boss, or a 3% chance of getting crit by every single enemy on the map."

Of course, the conclusions I take that point to are ones others are likely to disagree with, but still.

[joshcja]

It's not about his low Luck. It's not like his defenses are super good, so there are better choices in that department. Also, his shaky damage output means you won't even be profiting much from the counterattack most of the time.

Name HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Arthur 50+20 45+20 0 55+15 35+15 5+5 45+5 20

These are some of the best offensive growths in the game ft 70/50/20 bulk which is absolute top tier in this game. His bases are middling but he hits every single benchmark he needs to.

Nah, LTC has no use for Arthur as a combat unit other than earlygame chip + Attack Stance with the Hand Axe.

I field him to force crits that would be otherwise impossible (saves turns) and he can do some pretty silly things to the AI while gaining just enough combat exp to convert over to a serviceable rallybot once you get titass for pairup duty which lets you stack enough str to replicate effies damage contributions in the midgame which just frees up more deployment for fun strats, he also can flat orko anything he wants to when promoted and easily lives all of the hits he needs to chew even with absolutely minimal investment.

Silias on drugs with VoF active hits every turncount benchmark more or less on his own from ch8 to ch17 and arthur helps build a stronger 18-28 than stacking redundant GK's in the early game would (If they were by sillyass enemies would attack them instead of him and that slows me down)

[Shadow Mir]

Name HP Str Mag Skl Spd Lck Def Res Arthur 50+20 45+20 0 55+15 35+15 5+5 45+5 20

These are some of the best offensive growths in the game ft 70/50/20 bulk which is absolute top tier in this game. His bases are middling but he hits every single benchmark he needs to.

Having good bulk is one thing, but having to live in fear of critical hits can really take a bite out of it... Needless to say I'd much rather have someone with good bulk who isn't susceptible to eating triple damage from pretty much anything under the sun that's not using a weapon that can't critical.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Nintales]

Wrong topic there, my bad.

Anyways.

Is there any way to salvage units like Rinka in Lunatic without having huge investments? Since I'll use Mozu along her, I think it's gonna be hard.

Same goes for Arthur and Odin.

Edited March 1, 2016 by Nintales

[joshcja]

Someone explain where exactly does having more high movement than the game literally gives you for free save turns in the 8-17 stretch where silias is an instant orko+0 damage machine on lunatic?

ch7, route with forced units on a small map.

ch8, just dodge freeze staff twice.

ch9, small map, forced turncount by azura even with VoF.

ch10, silias kills takasshat just fine

ch11, forced turncount with silias/camilia goes fast enough due to move limitations, unless you have a hardon for killing off azura this early?????, but beruka can do that just fine.

ch12, look another map where silias just runs in a straight line ft mook contributions

ch13: odin eats the entire right hand side of the map and promotes while waifu nyx hits 17-18 of dual gaurds before her trip to the trashcan, arthur manipulates dracoknight stacks so silias has a clean line of sight to eat a calamity gate to the face on turn 1 and 2 beastkillers on turn 2 runs to boss area as mooks and the free nerds clean up, promotes and orkoes.

ch14: Chirp, lol 20/x +move ophelia on a bird, rip map, hi leo have speed and bulk to be immediately useful, keton kill yourself.

ch15: PFFFFFFT (free shelterbot though)

ch16: Rally magic, ophelia kills the south right by enfeeble adventurer (she can dodge it with minimal rigging thanks to her stupid luck/speed) and odin pulls everything else north on EP turn which clears a path for a shelter chain to the boss (odin leaves promoted mooks/outlaws alive to feed the scrubsquad on) VOF silias ohko's the boss under rally str with titass riding shotgun. (I could probably one turn this with the available freeponys but i'm lazy and the exp is soooo nice). Ultimate freepony acquired

ch17: Silias runs in a line to the boss with 9 move from pairup one use of danceshelter and orkos anything that looks at him. Other mooks grab chests.

ch18 onwards: Man it sucks to rely on physical units and no ponytome leo in lategame lunatic with no rally str.

Sorry I'm not seeing the savings early game and the late game from pony/effie build seems absurdly painful on lunatic. It's probably good (more consistent at least) on hard mode/normal mode but I don't care about those at all. Ponysquad could possible shave one turn on ch 11/17 but that's not worth the entire lunatic lategame even counting ophelia's 3 turn paralouge against total turncount you make gains. Its not like you cant run paladin!jakob on this route if you so desire if somehow I'm missing a magic tile number somewhere that AI manip cant make up for.

So yeah I use arthur for AI manip rally str and crits because with the way I play he's pretty much free, it makes rigging easier and gives me access to some really fun secondary objective strats.

Edited March 1, 2016 by joshcja

[Djing]

Having good bulk is one thing, but having to live in fear of critical hits can really take a bite out of it... Needless to say I'd much rather have someone with good bulk who isn't susceptible to eating triple damage from pretty much anything under the sun that's not using a weapon that can't critical.

I'm currently at Chapter 23 and I have more Goddess Icons than I know what to do with. By the time Arthur is in risk of getting OHKOed by a crit, he will probably have around 12-13 Luck if you give those to him. That's more luck than someone you would actually use like Kaze or Niles.

I've amassed at least 5 Goddess Icons through the course of the game. That's 20 luck, which means you will won't get hit by a crit unless you literally play with your eyes closed.

Even then, Berserkers aren't being used for frontline combat. They're being used for support bonuses, rally strength and picking off stray enemies.

Arthur has many problems, but low luck is something he grows out of very easily.

[Shadow Mir]

I'm currently at Chapter 23 and I have more Goddess Icons than I know what to do with. By the time Arthur is in risk of getting OHKOed by a crit, he will probably have around 12-13 Luck if you give those to him. That's more luck than someone you would actually use like Kaze or Niles.

I've amassed at least 5 Goddess Icons through the course of the game. That's 20 luck, which means you will won't get hit by a crit unless you literally play with your eyes closed.

Even then, Berserkers aren't being used for frontline combat. They're being used for support bonuses, rally strength and picking off stray enemies.

Arthur has many problems, but low luck is something he grows out of very easily.

It's okay. I've already given up on Berserkers. Sorry to disappoint you.

Anyways, that sounds like a lot to have to expend on someone who has it even worse than effing Knoll...

Edited March 1, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia

[Elieson]

worse than effing Knoll...

Iron Rune though he's far from a dodgetank in a game about dodgetanking

Levant, what else would you do with the oodles of Goddess Icons that are thrown at you since like right when you get Arthur?

[Shadow Mir]

Iron Rune though he's far from a dodgetank in a game about dodgetanking

Levant, what else would you do with the oodles of Goddess Icons that are thrown at you since like right when you get Arthur?

Exactly - there's also Summoner, which gives him some ability to contribute without needing to be on the chopping block.

...Regardless, while there's a chance I'm being harder on Arthur than he deserves, I'm just not sure about fielding someone who has a chance to cause resets except if attacked by enemies using weapons that can't critical.

Edited March 2, 2016 by Levant Mir Celestia