Hinoka x Avatar's B support seems like a big spoiler.

[Lady Sansa]

Unless I skipped over some text, I don't remember the characters really discussing their parentage.

[Rizziah]

How can it be a spoiler if it's in the game?

[bookofholsety]

perhaps "spoiler" isn't the right word, but i can see what they mean: it's sort of like fe10 jumping the gun with ranulf and the black knight revelation. as far as the conversation goes, admittedly i have exactly zero idea of at what point the main story confirms that mikoto married into the family later, but i can sort of see the problem. which is a shame, because this conversation isn't a half-bad angle on that revelation

[Thane]

Heh, tell me when you reach A. If it's unchanged from the Japanese version, it'd be fun to hear what you have to say.

[GoXDS]

for that matter, Kagero and Kamui's support also mentions this. pretty likely to be present elsewhere as well

[ckc22]

This is one of the drawbacks of the support system - the format of it (accessible at any point in the story, not gated by chapter) means that the supports either spoil or they can't reveal much/have sweeping changes.

[Dark Holy Elf]

One of the clever things about Path of Radiance's system is they could have a minimum chapter requirement built in. I wouldn't mind seeing that return.

The Ranulf thing isn't a spoiler at all; that's when the game chose to tell you (whether or not you like that narratively), and I thought it made a lot of sense. Ranulf obviously knows, the game teases us with this, and he reveals it to Ike when he worries he might not see Ike again. There's no logical reason for him to keep it a secret longer, and holding that secret to right before the battle itself would seem kinda cheesy on the game's part. Also anyone who is genre-savvy knew that twist before then anyway.

[NekoKnight]

One of the clever things about Path of Radiance's system is they could have a minimum chapter requirement built in. I wouldn't mind seeing that return.

The Ranulf thing isn't a spoiler at all; that's when the game chose to tell you (whether or not you like that narratively), and I thought it made a lot of sense. Ranulf obviously knows, the game teases us with this, and he reveals it to Ike when he worries he might not see Ike again. There's no logical reason for him to keep it a secret longer, and holding that secret to right before the battle itself would seem kinda cheesy on the game's part. Also anyone who is genre-savvy knew that twist before then anyway.

I could get behind minimum chapter requirements for supports. The game already has a limit on Midoriko's recruitment because of a certain story event.

[Sentacotus]

One of the clever things about Path of Radiance's system is they could have a minimum chapter requirement built in. I wouldn't mind seeing that return.

The Ranulf thing isn't a spoiler at all; that's when the game chose to tell you (whether or not you like that narratively), and I thought it made a lot of sense. Ranulf obviously knows, the game teases us with this, and he reveals it to Ike when he worries he might not see Ike again. There's no logical reason for him to keep it a secret longer, and holding that secret to right before the battle itself would seem kinda cheesy on the game's part. Also anyone who is genre-savvy knew that twist before then anyway.

That might work for certain avatar supports but as far as getting kids (if that mechanic returns) then it might run into some snags bottlenecking certain child characters and having unbalanced availability by default.

[Loki Laufeyson]

perhaps "spoiler" isn't the right word, but i can see what they mean: it's sort of like fe10 jumping the gun with ranulf and the black knight revelation. as far as the conversation goes, admittedly i have exactly zero idea of at what point the main story confirms that mikoto married into the family later, but i can sort of see the problem. which is a shame, because this conversation isn't a half-bad angle on that revelation

I dont think Mikoto's marrying into the Hoshidan Royal Family is outwardly discussed until the third path. (i think) So Hinoka's discussion with Corn about it in the B support does feel like its coming out of nowhere. Its like "oh btw we're stepsibs." and its like "ummm wat" Like, i was going "hey...that wasnt talked about in main-game here, guys. Whatchudooin."

[Chaotix]

Hinoka doesn't actually say that they're not blood siblings until their S support though (which is I believe the same as all of the Hoshido sibling marriages).

In the B support she just says that Mikoto is not her mother. She doesn't mention that Sumeragi is not Corrin's father, because she actually doesn't know that until she reads Mikoto's letter.

That being said, this does bring up the question of - if Corrin is supposed to be older than Takumi and Sakura, and Mikoto arrived when Corrin was still a baby... who is Takumi and Sakura's mother? The game seems pretty adamant that it's not Mikoto, but that would mean that Takumi and Sakura were also already born when Mikoto arrived. I don't think Hoshido does the whole concubine thing like Nohr does either.

[Loki Laufeyson]

Hinoka doesn't actually say that they're not blood siblings until their S support though (which is I believe the same as all of the Hoshido sibling marriages).

In the B support she just says that Mikoto is not her mother. She doesn't mention that Sumeragi is not Corrin's father, because she actually doesn't know that until she reads Mikoto's letter.

That being said, this does bring up the question of - if Corrin is supposed to be older than Takumi and Sakura, and Mikoto arrived when Corrin was still a baby... who is Takumi and Sakura's mother? The game seems pretty adamant that it's not Mikoto, but that would mean that Takumi and Sakura were also already born when Mikoto arrived. I don't think Hoshido does the whole concubine thing like Nohr does either.

tbh, i feel like that whole thing is there so you can bang those characters. Which is hella cheap.

[Chaotix]

tbh, i feel like that whole thing is there so you can bang those characters. Which is hella cheap.

Oh of course, I totally agree. I just wish they had thought it through a little bit better.

The only explanation I can come up with at the moment is if Mikoto stayed in Hoshido for a few years before Sumeragi's old wife had Takumi and Sakura and kicked the bucket. And then they got married after that. But the supports imply that Mikoto and Sumeragi were already in love when she arrived.

[Fallaner]

Oh of course, I totally agree. I just wish they had thought it through a little bit better.

The only explanation I can come up with at the moment is if Mikoto stayed in Hoshido for a few years before Sumeragi's old wife had Takumi and Sakura and kicked the bucket. And then they got married after that. But the supports imply that Mikoto and Sumeragi were already in love when she arrived.

The thing KINDA makes more sense if you play Revelation. Just... kinda. I'll spoiler tag it so I won't spoil it for anyone who doesn't know yet and wants the find out on their own.

This is your only warning.

In Revelation you end up fighting King Sumeragi brought back from the dead by Anankos. After you defeat him he returns to himself for a bit, and says that by the time he met Mikoto (and fell in love with her), she already had a child (that being you). Most likely Takumi and Sakura were born before that, as the game doesn't give actual year differences, it's possible they were born and Mikoto married king Sumeragi while you were still very young, later being kidnapped by King Garon while you were still young.

Information from Special Edition U.S. Copy of Fates, not a translated Japanese copy.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Fallaner

[Chaotix]

The thing KINDA makes more sense if you play Revelation. Just... kinda. I'll spoiler tag it so I won't spoil it for anyone who doesn't know yet and wants the find out on their own.

This is your only warning.

In Revelation you end up fighting King Sumeragi brought back from the dead by Anankos. After you defeat him he returns to himself for a bit, and says that by the time he met Mikoto (and fell in love with her), she already had a child (that being you). Most likely Takumi and Sakura were born before that, as the game doesn't give actual year differences, it's possible they were born and Mikoto married king Sumeragi while you were still very young, later being kidnapped by King Garon while you were still young.

Information from Special Edition U.S. Copy of Fates, not a translated Japanese copy.

Yes, Hinoka and Sakura's S supports basically say the same thing, but they mention Mikoto had a "baby" with her, not a "child". So I guess the question is, how old do you have to be before you are no longer considered a baby? 2? 4? Enough for Takumi and Sakura to actually be a few years younger than Corrin?

[Fallaner]

Yes, Hinoka and Sakura's S supports basically say the same thing, but they mention Mikoto had a "baby" with her, not a "child". So I guess the question is, how old do you have to be before you are no longer considered a baby? 2? 4? Enough for Takumi and Sakura to actually be a few years younger than Corrin?

My mistake, I must of remembered that slightly wrong.

Do they actually have to be a few years younger? Could they not simply be one or two years younger each? We also don't exactly know if Mikoto came before or after Sumeragi's original wife died, it could be Mikoto came around before that, but wasn't really married to him, and was afterwards. The details there are frankly unknown.

If they were one or two years younger, you could easily argue that the MU was young enough to be considered a baby (if you want to ignore the term toddler), and they would still be younger, and Mikoto would still show up after Sumeragi's original wife died.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Fallaner

[Chaotix]

My mistake, I must of remembered that slightly wrong.

Do they actually have to be a few years younger? Could they not simply be one or two years younger each? We also don't exactly know if Mikoto came before or after Sumeragi's original wife died, it could be Mikoto came around before that, but wasn't really married to him, and was afterwards. The details there are frankly unknown.

If they were one or two years younger, you could easily argue that the MU was young enough to be considered a baby (if you want to ignore the term toddler), and they would still be younger, and Mikoto would still show up after Sumeragi's original wife died.

Yeah this is the only explanation that makes any sort of sense to me too. In order for the writing to be consistent with itself, Takumi and Sakura have to be 1 and 2 years younger than Corrin, respectively.

[Fallaner]

Yeah this is the only explanation that makes any sort of sense to me too. In order for the writing to be consistent with itself, Takumi and Sakura have to be 1 and 2 years younger than Corrin, respectively.

That also arguably works somewhat from a model standpoint, but given how you have multiple options with that it's somewhat subjective, so i'll be arguing from my young looking perspective and the fact some older people look quite young and vice-versa.

My own avatar sometimes ends up looking younger than Takumi, though very rarely. That could certainly imply, at least with my build for her, that they aren't too different in age. On the other hand, she looks about as old as Sakura at times, and sometimes seems a bit older, which again could seem like a close age and the Avatar simply looking somewhat young for their age.

But that's simply due to a model perspective which may be quite different from a logic or lore perspective.

It also wouldn't be all that weird to have a sibling a year younger or one two years younger. My own brother is about a year and a half younger than me, being born in early 200 VS my late 1998.

[Sunwoo]

Or maybe Sumeragi's an asshole who was blinded by Mikoto Sue and Kamui Sue/Stu and basically "married" her even though his previous wife was still around and had given him four children -- one of whom was possibly born after Mikoto had already come to the palace.

The whole fuckable siblings thing is stupid, but it also makes Sumeragi look like an asshole. Because apparently Sakura says that Kamui was kidnapped after she was born (but Aqua was kidnapped before Elise was born), and if they're not related but Sakura is still related to the other four Hoshido siblings then their mother still had to be around. So unless they're implying that Mikoto and Sumeragi were married for only a few months or so, the narrative suggests that Sumeragi just dumped his wife who gave him kids already for some other woman, but still had another kid with his first wife.

[Fallaner]

Or maybe Sumeragi's an asshole who was blinded by Mikoto Sue and Kamui Sue/Stu and basically "married" her even though his previous wife was still around and had given him four children -- one of whom was possibly born after Mikoto had already come to the palace.

The whole fuckable siblings thing is stupid, but it also makes Sumeragi look like an asshole. Because apparently Sakura says that Kamui was kidnapped after she was born (but Aqua was kidnapped before Elise was born), and if they're not related but Sakura is still related to the other four Hoshido siblings then their mother still had to be around. So unless they're implying that Mikoto and Sumeragi were married for only a few months or so, the narrative suggests that Sumeragi just dumped his wife who gave him kids already for some other woman, but still had another kid with his first wife.

Why couldn't they have only been married for a few months? You're perfectly entitled to your opinion, but I don't see anything of what Sumeragi did as warranting calling him an asshole. The game doesn't specify how long after Sakura was born, and there does appear to be an age difference between Sakura and Elise, one that could be fairly sizable.

There's no clear evidence saying specifically that Sakura was born after Mikoto came around. There really, REALLY isn't. You're entitled to finding the idea of marrying your siblings to be dumb, but don't let that blind you to entirely valid possibilities that you are ignoring for the sake of making this look worse than you already think it is.

[Sunwoo]

First of all, you're sounding pretty hostile towards me, directly. Considering that I didn't insult anyone on this thread, you're coming off awfully aggressive.

Second of all, I DID look at the other possibilities. I have discussed this with other people who already know what happens in all three routes. I have played the damn Japanese version and know everything that happens. The supports give a very fuzzy timeline that make it really hard to see it any other way, and require some loose interpretation as it is. Sakura and Takumi being younger than Kamui make it very, very possible for both Ikona and Mikoto to have coexisted.

Making assumptions makes an ass out of both you and me, but especially you.

[Damosel]

Sumeragi's original wife is only named in the "libraries" of the Records Hall, Ikona. As far as I know the Hinoka/Kamui support chain is the only one that references Mikoto is not bio mom by the royal sibs (though they all still call her mother).

Sunwoo is correct in that the Elise + Sakura Corrin supports establish that Mikoto and her baby had been in Hoshido a while before Sakura was born and Sumeragi went skipping off to Chevalier. Mostly cause Corrin was old enough to remember the event thus at the youngest had to be around four and arrived long before that (see below). As Ikona is Sakura's mother, the earliest she could've died was after Sakura's birth- but even then Takumi had to be born before that and then the gestation period of at least nine months- Ikona and Mikoto had to coexist alive for at least those periods of time.

And well... the way the game is written, Sumeragi's interest in Mikoto happened way before this possible 'kill date' as explained in the IK route(see below).

This analysis is using the fan-patched end scene from Invisible Kingdom chapter 25 so SPOILERS.

From the text Sumeragi implies that once, before Touma got completely screwed over by a mad dragon, under a hidden identity Mikoto visited Hoshido and he saw her. Quote, “Seeing [Mikoto] resting at a fountain bank… I was immediately infatuated.”

He later says that after Touma was wrecked Mikoto showed up again but this time with a baby.

Therefore the time in which he spied her and became infatuated… Ikona had to still be alive and in the picture cause Takumi and Sakura had yet to be born (as Corrin was only a baby, and both are younger). And Ikona must’ve still been around when Mikoto came a'knockin’ because of said reason.

This chapter focuses on Sumeragi’s place as dad and his love for “mom” (Mikoto), but it also raises a bunch of questions. Cause while it’s easy to say Ikona was a last minute addition to the narrative… Ryouma and Hinoka were always meant to be older sibs compared to Kamui, so maybe them having a different mother had always been intended? But then again I could easily see writing around the problem by just saying Mikoto left behind two kids from their love affair, then coming back later with the dragon baby.

What the game gives us is that Sumeragi totally had at least two ladies at the same time. And only in Nohr is the word Concubine ever used… never in Hoshido. So Sumeragi’s infatuation is looking super sketchy.

[Fallaner]

First of all, you're sounding pretty hostile towards me, directly. Considering that I didn't insult anyone on this thread, you're coming off awfully aggressive.

Second of all, I DID look at the other possibilities. I have discussed this with other people who already know what happens in all three routes. I have played the damn Japanese version and know everything that happens. The supports give a very fuzzy timeline that make it really hard to see it any other way, and require some loose interpretation as it is. Sakura and Takumi being younger than Kamui make it very, very possible for both Ikona and Mikoto to have coexisted.

Making assumptions makes an ass out of both you and me, but especially you.

My apologies for seeming hostility, that really was not my intent. I'm currently half asleep so my wording isn't being completely thought through. So apologies on that front.

From Hinoka's support, it at least implies to me that at some point Sakura was both born and Ikona was gone. "The Others" could quite frankly include the entire family, and granted this may of taken place after the Avatar was taken away, this still at least implies that they didn't always coexist. Now, i'm really having a problem with you calling Sumeragi an asshole. You can quite easily love two people at once, you know. It's very possible, and it's no reason for you to declare Sumeragi an asshole. Considering Mikoto ended up as a Queen, it's very possible Sumeragi was properly with both.

Sumeragi's original wife is only named in the "libraries" of the Records Hall, Ikona. As far as I know the Hinoka/Kamui support chain is the only one that references Mikoto is not bio mom by the royal sibs (though they all still call her mother).

Sunwoo is correct in that the Elise + Sakura Corrin supports establish that Mikoto and her baby had been in Hoshido a while before Sakura was born and Sumeragi went skipping off to Chevalier. Mostly cause Corrin was old enough to remember the event thus at the youngest had to be around four and arrived long before that (see below). As Ikona is Sakura's mother, the earliest she could've died was after Sakura's birth- but even then Takumi had to be born before that and then the gestation period of at least nine months- Ikona and Mikoto had to coexist alive for at least those periods of time.

And well... the way the game is written, Sumeragi's interest in Mikoto happened way before this possible 'kill date' as explained in the IK route(see below).

This analysis is using the fan-patched end scene from Invisible Kingdom chapter 25 so SPOILERS.

From the text Sumeragi implies that once, before Touma got completely screwed over by a mad dragon, under a hidden identity Mikoto visited Hoshido and he saw her. Quote, “Seeing [Mikoto] resting at a fountain bank… I was immediately infatuated.”

He later says that after Touma was wrecked Mikoto showed up again but this time with a baby.

Therefore the time in which he spied her and became infatuated… Ikona had to still be alive and in the picture cause Takumi and Sakura had yet to be born (as Corrin was only a baby, and both are younger). And Ikona must’ve still been around when Mikoto came a'knockin’ because of said reason.

This chapter focuses on Sumeragi’s place as dad and his love for “mom” (Mikoto), but it also raises a bunch of questions. Cause while it’s easy to say Ikona was a last minute addition to the narrative… Ryouma and Hinoka were always meant to be older sibs compared to Kamui, so maybe them having a different mother had always been intended? But then again I could easily see writing around the problem by just saying Mikoto left behind two kids from their love affair, then coming back later with the dragon baby.

What the game gives us is that Sumeragi totally had at least two ladies at the same time. And only in Nohr is the word Concubine ever used… never in Hoshido. So Sumeragi’s infatuation is looking super sketchy.

After going back to the support log and reviewing Sakura's supports with the Avatar, then Sakura's supports with Elise, then Elise's supports with the Avatar, I really, really don't see where it says that Mikoto and her child have been in Hoshido for a while before Sakura was born, then Sumeragi went off.

All Sakura's says is that a rumor was that Sakura was the person intended to be kidnapped.

The first part of 'baby', a very loose definition, is someone very young. The next part is stricter, but is marked by "especially", which would imply that it is not solely used in that manner. Since people very rarely say "toddler" from my experience. You could thus argue that the Avatar thus came to Hoshido with her mother at an older age than you assume (which I imagine is probably only a few months old), and Ikona could of been gone before that point.

Just because "concubine" as a word isn't used, doesn't mean they couldn't have both coexisted. As far as I'm aware, there's no story reason why both couldn't of been with him at one point in time. Through lots of wording shenanigans, you could avoid the word concubine entirely, or simply just not use it.

You don't even need to use wording Shenanigans. He could simply have just married both. Therefore both would be his wives, and therefore both fit Hoshido not having concubines and fulfill the definition of a concubine, which would be a woman who lives with a man, but has lower status than his wife(wives). Mikoto would be his second wife, and not a concubine. When Ikona passes on or something of that nature, Mikoto just becomes the primary.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Fallaner

[Damosel]

The timeframe is mention in the Japanese script for the support concerning Sakura and her birth.

The problem with your theory of a grown Kamui being brought in late is the fact that Hinoka down for the sibs assume Kamui IS blood related until you hit S Rank. Hinoka is canonically older than Kamui- if Kamui was a toddler or older she'd be older than that. There would be memories of a time without middle non-infant sib suddenly brought in, thus she'd have suspicions rather than requiring a letter with an explanation. Also apart from Ryouma and apparently Kagerou none of the non-royal characters ever bring up the fact Kamui's a step child, the narrative plays it much more like they think Kamui is blood related. An infant suddenly showing up at the castle and being associated with this is a bit less deadbeat "oops I had this mistress here's our years old love child" for Sumeragi.

You're are also stretching the word "baby" to fit your own interpretation. Taking "baby" completely literally is equally, if not more valid reading. Firsthand experience with semantics in spoken language which varies from region to region is different from the analysis of prose because when a writer picks their diction its with the intent to inform- the level of specifics and details varies with writing style. With Sakura's Japanese birth timeframe in mind, I really can't see Ikona being dead before Kamui and Mikoto arrive in Hoshido. Also as I stated in my IK evidence, Sumeragi's infatuation with Mikoto starts way before Ikona's kicked the bucket.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Damosel

[Sunwoo]

From Hinoka's support, it at least implies to me that at some point Sakura was both born and Ikona was gone. "The Others" could quite frankly include the entire family, and granted this may of taken place after the Avatar was taken away, this still at least implies that they didn't always coexist. Now, i'm really having a problem with you calling Sumeragi an asshole. You can quite easily love two people at once, you know. It's very possible, and it's no reason for you to declare Sumeragi an asshole. Considering Mikoto ended up as a Queen, it's very possible Sumeragi was properly with both.

Other things I've read, such as the IK-related post Dame posted, suggest otherwise to me. Also, I don't think loving two people at the same time is really that "easy". In modern times, we'd call that cheating and polygamy is looked down in most of the modern world as well. Now, even if Hoshido isn't "modern times" and probably has different values than we do, if Sumeragi really did fall for Mikoto while he was still married to Ikona, that's pretty disrespectful to Ikona.

Do you really think most women (or men, for that matter) would take it well if their spouse whom they love decided that there was someone else that they loved just as much, or even more, as them? And invite them to live with you and your family? Wouldn't their existence would feel like a slap in the fucking face. Wasn't it established on Nohr path how all of the concubines being jealous and vying for Garon's attention fucked over the siblings emotionally as they were growing up?

I've seen enough of the script material in the Japanese to have formed an educated opinion on the matter, and my opinion is that unless Nintendo releases something officially disproving me, Sumeragi comes off as a two-timer who didn't give a fuck about his first wife's feelings and I think that in itself is a pretty assholish move.

Edited February 29, 2016 by Sunwoo