So why exactly do people call Conquest Corrin an idiot?(Conquest spoilers)

[Tolvir]

Negotiate what, exactly? What power did Corrin have to negotiate anything with the Hoshido army?

Why do people keep ignoring the fact that Elise, regardless of how she looks or acts, is a combatant who is willingly serving in the Nohr forces?

I think BruceLee was more asking "why did Corrin think sparing the Cheve rebel forces was good idea," which I kind of agree with.

First, he shoots Elise for the wrong reasons. When she shows up, he talks about how she annoys him and then shoots her. Clearly not shooting because she is an enemy combatant, he is shooting her because he finds her to be a pest that is annoying him, and needs to be squashed. Second, my point was about how overall, Takumi fans put the blame on everyone else. My example being someone saying it was Azura's fault for Takumi snapping at her in Chapter 5. I in no way referenced Elise, and while your argument that she is serving Nohrian forces is competely true, and if that was his reason for shooting her, I wouldn't blame him. Its the fact that he shoots her because he thinks she is annoying.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Tolvir

[Azure Sen]

First, he shoots Elise for the wrong reasons. When she shows up, he talks about how she annoys him and then shoots her. Clearly not shooting because she is an enemy combatant, he is shooting her because he finds her to be a pest that is annoying him, and needs to be squashed. Second, my point was about how overall, Takumi fans put the blame on everyone else. My example being someone saying it was Azura's fault for Takumi snapping at her in Chapter 5. I in no way referenced Elise, and while your argument that she is serving Nohrian forces is competely true, and if that was his reason for shooting her, I wouldn't blame him. Its the fact that he shoots her because he thinks she is annoying.

Eh, he probably would have shot her regardless, but this whole thing has been argued to death so let's just agree to disagree. You brought up Nohrian children in your post, so given how much flack Takumi gets for that, I assumed and I apologize. I won't make excuses for Takumi being a jerk to Azura, that was uncalled for, or for some of his other less than stellar behavior elsewhere.

[Tolvir]

Eh, he probably would have shot her regardless, but this whole thing has been argued to death so let's just agree to disagree. You brought up Nohrian children in your post, so given how much flack Takumi gets for that, I assumed and I apologize. I won't make excuses for Takumi being a jerk to Azura, that was uncalled for, or for some of his other less than stellar behavior elsewhere.

No problem, I can see how it could of been taken that way. I probably should of gone with a different example like the classic kicking puppies.

[Esme]

is he that weak? i got a good lilith as well.

i really need to get to that point of the game

Not really, but I spend a lot of time visiting castles and beating up other Corrins, so I have a lot of opportunities to feed Lilith. She's at the point now where, if she were actually usable outside of My Castle, she'd trivialize the game for me.

[Kyza]

People seem to be focusing a lot on Cheve and painting Corrin in a bad light. Corrin's plan at Cheve was basically to do what they did to the Ice tribe and that is convince them that there was an alternative, that Nohr could be changed for the better. Takumi is partially to blame in ruining this as he instigated the fight and shut down the negotiations immediately by firing arrows upon Corrin and their sisters, of course he wasn't in his right mind at the time but it still threw a huge wrench into the plan. Corrin still wanted to resolve the rebellion peacefully however, so they decided to make sure that nobody would get killed and that way they could discuss things afterwards and come to an understanding like they did with the Ice Tribe. However this was screwed up by Hans who was ordered to kill all of the villagers by King Garon himself, Corrin couldn't do anything but watch as doing anything else would've gotten them killed/hunted down by Garon and thus ruin any chance of Nohr becoming a changed country. Also Corrin would've probably done something had Camilla not been there to remind them what the consequences of going against Garon would be. Corrin is not wholly to blame because in reality Corrin at this point in the story is powerless to do anything against Garon, not to mention the whole thing about Garon being a monster hasn't been revealed yet. Had they fought against Hans/stopped Hans Garon would know and their siblings would be powerless to save them, they would be forced to either escape or die and then what? They couldn't return to Hoshido because while their siblings in Hoshido might've let them come back the people would not agree with the decision and might even turn against the siblings as some had already done so once to kidnap and try and kill Azura. Plus who of Corrin's party would even choose to stay with them after being exiled by Nohr aside from Silas, Jakob/Felicia, Azura and maybe a few of the siblings? No they would be in a terrible spot to act at this point, in Revelations it works because you don't pick a side, you learn the whole story from Azura right from the get go and you're able to slowly convince both sides into joining your cause by revealing to them the truth. But in conquest you had already picked a side and to go back on it now wouldn't make any sense, plus if they had gone back on it then the story would pretty much be forced to become Revelations in order to even end on a relatively good note and then what would even be the point of having Revelations as a third campaign? The only way Corrin can act against Garon from the inside is by working to gain the man's trust so as not to have his entire army be sent after them, while doing so Corrin can end conflicts in their own way, peacfully, in a manner that gains the people's trust and thus unites them around Corrin giving them more and more power until the point where they are able to finally make a stand against Garon and change the country from within as is the whole premise of Conquest. Even when being forced to invade Hoshido to remain on Garon's good side Corrin does their darndest to end things as peacefully as possible unless forced to do otherwise, always telling their troops to try and not kill the Hoshidan soldiers and so on. It's these actions that convince Kaze to join Corrin's cause and slowly convinces their Hoshidan siblings that there is another way to go about this war even if towards the end only two of them fully realize this. Personally I don't see it as a bad story, maybe not the best of the three but it's good and the characters themselves are amazing which more than make up for the bad parts in my opinion. I love both Conquest and Birthright and Fire Emblem in general so perhaps some parts of my view are a bit biased but I honestly found the story to be quite enjoyable and engaging and I can't wait for Revelations to fill in that missing gap because really it's about the experience of all three as a whole that makes Fates so great.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Kyza

[saisymbolic]

It's not just Corrin that's a snatch-basket in Conquest. It's also Azura. Here, a post I posted from another thread summing up my favorite part of Conquest:

"Well, seeing as how we can't mention any of the shit that just went down in that other world to anyone and I just wasted this one-time crystal thing to show you, there's no way ANYONE will believe us. The only other option is to conquer Hoshido to make your slimy ass daddy sit on the golden throne so we can prove to your idiot siblings that he's a slimy ass daddy."

Corrin is an enabler. He is an enabler of shit.

I love Conquest but, after playing through Conquest, I can legit say the only reason for me to choose it would be to romance the fine ass dudes and dudettes therein.

I am shipping scum. No, I am not ashamed. Yes, I will continue to do so in the future FE games.

I am a part of the demographic that is making Fire Emblem into a dating sim.

[Kyza]

True, that part was strange and didn't really make a whole lot of sense. As I said there were definitely some bad parts in Conquest and it wasn't the strongest story of the three but I just didn't see why so many were focusing on Corrin/Cheve or why people think it's terrible. I just feel it gets an unnecessary amount of hate/criticism, not that I view criticism as a bad thing by any means it's just that some of it feels unjustified. But going back to the whole Azura scene I guess even if she had shown it off to your Nohrian siblings (who weren't there at the time) along with you there's no guarantee that they would've all believed you, unless you convinced them to follow you into the other world then maybe. But even if they were to believe you what then? They would still be in the middle of a war, confronting Garon at that point would put Nohr at a huge risk from an attack from Hoshido and even after taking over Nohr, Hoshido would still have to be dealt with in some form or another. It's doubtful that they all would just roll over and be cool with ending the war right then and there, your Hoshidan siblings might agree but the tension between the people of Nohr and the people of Hoshido would still be there and would still be strong (which isn't to say it isn't there/strong in Revelations but you slowly work through that tension throughout the story as both sides work together to fight the same force). This is my reasoning as to how one might explain the reason behind this scene anyway.

In all honesty though both Conquest and Birthright are fairly pointless except for enhancing the experience of Revelations and thus the experience of Fates as a whole as Revelations proves that the war between the two countries could've been prevented through the actions of Corrin and Azura simply revealing the truth to the rest of the world more or less from the get go. And thus why it is pretty much the canon route and the other two are simply side routes meant to be different experiences with elements that tie into the canon story.

[Azure Sen]

Quick edit for post above me: That is true, but remember even Garon for all his evilness was actually IMPRESSED when Corrin didn't kill a single Ice Tribe member quelling their rebellion. Who is to say it couldn't have happened for Cheve as well? Not sure how many forces Hans showed up with but he seemed to just play the part of executioner and were the people of Cheve not injured, they might've intimidated Hans enough to fall back, or at least hesitate enough for Garon to change his orders if the rebellion is no longer an issue.

Nah, Hans is an idiot who would charge into battle blindly despite the odds (and does so whenever he shows up as an ally) because he sees his troops as expendable. If it was Iago leading the reinforcements, you might be right. And Garon only spared the Ice Tribe because Corrin talked Kilma into surrendering after convincing him of their good intentions. There's little chance the Cheve rebels would agree to such a deal, if Scarlet's conversation with Corrin in Conquest 13 is any indication.

True, that part was strange and didn't really make a whole lot of sense. As I said there were definitely some bad parts in Conquest and it wasn't the strongest story of the three but I just didn't see why so many were focusing on Corrin/Cheve or why people think it's terrible.

I can't speak for anyone else, but Cheve was pretty much the final confirmation for me that no, Corrin can't change anything in Nohr and is completely powerless in the context of the narrative. (And, thinking back on it now, that Nohrrin really isn't good at thinking about the consequences of their actions.)

[NekoKnight]

I can't speak for anyone else, but Cheve was pretty much the final confirmation for me that no, Corrin can't change anything in Nohr and is completely powerless in the context of the narrative. (And, thinking back on it now, that Nohrrin really isn't good at thinking about the consequences of their actions.)

The first of several massacres you can't stop. I don't see how people enjoy a route where you accomplish almost nothing until end-game and up to that point is a series of failures.

[NB8]

It's not just Corrin that's a snatch-basket in Conquest. It's also Azura. Here, a post I posted from another thread summing up my favorite part of Conquest:

"Well, seeing as how we can't mention any of the shit that just went down in that other world to anyone and I just wasted this one-time crystal thing to show you, there's no way ANYONE will believe us. The only other option is to conquer Hoshido to make your slimy ass daddy sit on the golden throne so we can prove to your idiot siblings that he's a slimy ass daddy."

Corrin is an enabler. He is an enabler of shit.

I love Conquest but, after playing through Conquest, I can legit say the only reason for me to choose it would be to romance the fine ass dudes and dudettes therein.

I am shipping scum. No, I am not ashamed. Yes, I will continue to do so in the future FE games.

I am a part of the demographic that is making Fire Emblem into a dating sim.

Yep the crystal thing was pretty dumb... but it's not the dumbest thing in this game.

[Shadow Knight]

For me it was the fact that after countless battles, wars, and one on one conflicts Corrin somehow manages to not kill anyone....

The hell does he do, lightly stab enemies with his sword!!???!!!

At least when Robin fought he went all the way, no mercy.

[NB8]

Conquest is just a fucking mess, but I really love the gameplay.

At least something is something...

PD: The endings for each pair sucks too...

[Phoinix]

I think that a second war between Hoshido and Nohr would likely occur after the story ends in either Conquest or Birthright. Since someone already made a case for why it would happen in Conquest, I'll make my argument for why it would happen in the epilogue of Birthright.

[spoiler=Spoilers]

First, this argument relies upon the assumption that Nohr is pretty resource starved and relies on their conquests and their vassals to provide them resources. With a Hoshidan victory, I assume the majority of the Nohrian vassals (such as the Ice Tribe and Cheve) would be liberated, which would create an even more desperate situation for Nohr.

Then, we have to talk about the Nohrian ruler. Leo is a bastard child of Geron, since his mother was not the queen of Nohr (Katerina or Arete), but rather one of Garon's concubines. This fact, along with needing Camilla to relinquish her bid at the throne, would at least make Leo's claim for the Nohrian throne as shaky. If Nohr has any cadet branches, someone from that branch could probably produce a valid claim to the throne. Even without a cadet branch, all it would take is a Reactionary leader to gather public support via revanchism and pointing out that Leo was nowhere to be found when Corrin and the Hoshidans killed Xander and Garon to get the ball rolling. Even if Hoshido tries to intervene to support Leo, this would just further fan the flames.

If it is not obvious by now, I think that post-Birthright Nohr could turn out in a similar fashion as post-WWI Germany. Could such a reactionary movement happen in Post-Conquest Hoshido? Sure, although I think that Hinoka would have a better claim to the Hoshidan throne than Leo does to the Nohrian throne, especially since 1) she does not have the same 'bastard child' stain as Leo and 2) Mikoto has set a precedence that a Queen can rule Hoshido without a male counterpart (Conquest mentions that the Nohrian King has more authority than his consort). In addition, if we also keep the idea that the game paints Nohr as the war-loving nation while Hoshido as the peace-loving state, isn't obvious which one would more likely have dreams of revanchism?

[NekoKnight]

I think that a second war between Hoshido and Nohr would likely occur after the story ends in either Conquest or Birthright. Since someone already made a case for why it would happen in Conquest, I'll make my argument for why it would happen in the epilogue of Birthright.

[spoiler=Spoilers]

First, this argument relies upon the assumption that Nohr is pretty resource starved and relies on their conquests and their vassals to provide them resources. With a Hoshidan victory, I assume the majority of the Nohrian vassals (such as the Ice Tribe and Cheve) would be liberated, which would create an even more desperate situation for Nohr.

Then, we have to talk about the Nohrian ruler. Leo is a bastard child of Geron, since his mother was not the queen of Nohr (Katerina or Arete), but rather one of Garon's concubines. This fact, along with needing Camilla to relinquish her bid at the throne, would at least make Leo's claim for the Nohrian throne as shaky. If Nohr has any cadet branches, someone from that branch could probably produce a valid claim to the throne. Even without a cadet branch, all it would take is a Reactionary leader to gather public support via revanchism and pointing out that Leo was nowhere to be found when Corrin and the Hoshidans killed Xander and Garon to get the ball rolling. Even if Hoshido tries to intervene to support Leo, this would just further fan the flames.

If it is not obvious by now, I think that post-Birthright Nohr could turn out in a similar fashion as post-WWI Germany. Could such a reactionary movement happen in Post-Conquest Hoshido? Sure, although I think that Hinoka would have a better claim to the Hoshidan throne than Leo does to the Nohrian throne, especially since 1) she does not have the same 'bastard child' stain as Leo and 2) Mikoto has set a precedence that a Queen can rule Hoshido without a male counterpart (Conquest mentions that the Nohrian King has more authority than his consort). In addition, if we also keep the idea that the game paints Nohr as the war-loving nation while Hoshido as the peace-loving state, isn't obvious which one would more likely have dreams of revanchism?

Leon is considered a prince despite his status as being born out of wedlock. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he's ever called a bastard nor is being a bastard something criticized in game. If there were others who had more legitimacy than Camilla or Leon, I think it would have been mentioned somewhere.

[warchiefwilliams]

Leon is considered a prince despite his status as being born out of wedlock. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think he's ever called a bastard nor is being a bastard something criticized in game. If there were others who had more legitimacy than Camilla or Leon, I think it would have been mentioned somewhere.

Leo, and for that matter, all of the Nohrian siblings are never referred to as such. Nor is the any branch or cadet families in Nohr. And to be completly honest, the story and the families are a bit too convoluted as is. Throwing in branch families would only make them more confusing.

After all these discussions/arguments and the like, all I really want to see at this point is the original script. That would make for an interesting read, though it would turn these forums into this short video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEGo41443iI

[Time the Crestfallen]

Leo, and for that matter, all of the Nohrian siblings are never referred to as such. Nor is the any branch or cadet families in Nohr. And to be completly honest, the story and the families are a bit too convoluted as is. Throwing in branch families would only make them more confusing.

After all these discussions/arguments and the like, all I really want to see at this point is the original script. That would make for an interesting read, though it would turn these forums into this short video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEGo41443iI

Sorry, not sorry.

[warchiefwilliams]

Sorry, not sorry.

If anyone is to blame here, its me for starting to post 40k memes to help further my opinion on fates. You shouldn't be sorry.

On a more productive note: The Cheve rebellion should have gone as follows in gameplay: (I believe that Phillius first came up with this idea)

There are two routes, on with Kamui and co, and one with Hans and co. Scarlet and Takmui are near the end. If Kamui gets to the end first and fights Scarlet, he saves her and can convince her to stand down. If Hans gets there first, the massacre ensues. It would help Kamui both keep to their word of trying to end the war without bloodshed and gives them a chance to try to work against Garon. Even more so if you apply (again, I believe Phillius's idea) the concept of rewarding a obiedient Kamui with weapons, money and the like and punishing a rebellious one with taking money and weapons, potentially executing "bad influences".

Edited March 4, 2016 by warchiefwilliams

[Time the Crestfallen]

If anyone is to blame here, its me for starting to post 40k memes to help further my opinion on fates. You shouldn't be sorry.

Nah, I'm equally as guilty. Whenever someone starts posting memes from a fandom I'm familiar with, I feel an almost instinctual need to try and out-meme them.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Phillius

[NekoKnight]

If anyone is to blame here, its me for starting to post 40k memes to help further my opinion on fates. You shouldn't be sorry.

On a more productive note: The Cheve rebellion should have gone as follows in gameplay: (I believe that Phillius first came up with this idea)

There are two routes, on with Kamui and co, and one with Hans and co. Scarlet and Takmui are near the end. If Kamui gets to the end first and fights Scarlet, he saves her and can convince her to stand down. If Hans gets there first, the massacre ensues. It would help Kamui both keep to their word of trying to end the war without bloodshed and gives them a chance to try to work against Garon. Even more so if you apply (again, I believe Phillius's idea) the concept of rewarding a obiedient Kamui with weapons, money and the like and punishing a rebellious one with taking money and weapons, potentially executing "bad influences".

I wouldn't mind the massacre if it were a turning point in Kamui's characterization. The event would be a brutal demonstration of the price of his naivete and inspire him to either rebel or find better ways to circumvent his higher-ups. The problem is he doesn't learn and still clings to the notion that "as long as I don't kill people personally, I'm doing the world a net positive." A character can make mistakes, a character can have flaws, but a character that doesn't grow from their experiences is a shit character.

Imagine if after Chevalier, Kamui were always looking for a plan to kill Garon (instead of the roundabout 'I'll keep my plan a secret until after Hoshido is conquered")? The opera house in Muse would instead be a joint attempt of Kamui and Azura to kill him instead of Azura's plan that she consulted with no one.

[Time the Crestfallen]

If anyone is to blame here, its me for starting to post 40k memes to help further my opinion on fates. You shouldn't be sorry.

On a more productive note: The Cheve rebellion should have gone as follows in gameplay: (I believe that Phillius first came up with this idea)

There are two routes, on with Kamui and co, and one with Hans and co. Scarlet and Takmui are near the end. If Kamui gets to the end first and fights Scarlet, he saves her and can convince her to stand down. If Hans gets there first, the massacre ensues. It would help Kamui both keep to their word of trying to end the war without bloodshed and gives them a chance to try to work against Garon. Even more so if you apply (again, I believe Phillius's idea) the concept of rewarding a obiedient Kamui with weapons, money and the like and punishing a rebellious one with taking money and weapons, potentially executing "bad influences".

Half right. The bit about Hans wasn't my idea, but the reward/punishment system was. I do like that thing about Hans though, although I wonder if you could just surround him on all sides with your units to stop him from moving.

[warchiefwilliams]

Half right. The bit about Hans wasn't my idea, but the reward/punishment system was. I do like that thing about Hans though, although I wonder if you could just surround him on all sides with your units to stop him from moving.

It would probably just be how allied units normally work. They treat your units as friendly, and therefore can pass by them instead of being blocked by them. You can't even target allies with rescue staffs in this game, so don't get any ideas about trapping Hans that way.

[Time the Crestfallen]

It would probably just be how allied units normally work. They treat your units as friendly, and therefore can pass by them instead of being blocked by them. You can't even target allies with rescue staffs in this game, so don't get any ideas about trapping Hans that way.

My internal fantasy of Hans getting body-checked by Nyx has been ruined forever T_T

[Wayward Alchemist]

Honestly he reminds me of Hamlet, without the "real heir to the throne" Lion King drama. He spends his time moping around instead of taking action, even when he knows what he needs to do. While his indecision isn't really his "downfall", it keeps him from getting what he really wants, peace without bloodshed.

[Pretty_Handsome]

He's incompetent too. So is Azura.

Nothing bars her from revealing the truth on any of the routes but bad writing. That and in Birthright she gives the orb to Leo who learns the truth and unlike Azura it's never said that he breaks the darn thing.

I assume he didn't as Leo is said to be the most powerful and skilled magic user currently alive.

Edited March 4, 2016 by Pretty_Handsome

[Berret]

He's incompetent too. So is Azura.

Nothing bars her from revealing the truth on any of the routes but bad writing. That and in Birthright she gives the orb to Leo who learns the truth and unlike Azura it's never said that he breaks the darn thing.

I assume he didn't as Leo is said to be the most powerful and skilled magic user currently alive.

"Because Plot"