So why exactly do people call Conquest Corrin an idiot?(Conquest spoilers)

[The DanMan]

As for Chapter 19. . .

It would've been hilariously morbid if Corrin went through the village, and then skinned their corpses for funds anyway. A perfectly good pelt shouldn't be wasted~!

Monster Hunter logic; I can get behind that.

Anyways...

In general, Conquest feels like the selfish option; Corrin's confused by everything that's happened and instinctively goes back to what he's familiar with.

The problem is how the whole plot is railroaded to make him feel like shit and all of his choices the right ones.

[Pretty_Handsome]

Corrin does kill and causes a lot og innocent deaths on Nohr be a use they're incompetent.

Corrin has an out since they know Garon is evil and the Nohr siblings will not protect or believe them. Their out I'd run away ir help their true family - Hoshido.

Azura shares a lot if the blame too. She has the tool to reveal the truth yet wasted abd breaks it in Conquest while in Birthright she actually used her head and gives it to Leo which instantly gets him to cease support for Garon and lead the way fir a real revolution within Nohr without the loss of many innocents.

[Abysswalker25]

By the game. He isn't showing remorse over those deaths. In fact, he ''excuses himself'' in front of Ryoma for having spared Hinoka and her soldiers, saying all of this has been for the good of everyone.

Hm.. maybe I'm recalling differently but every time soldiers are needlessly killed Corrin ends up being pretty hurt over it. Even killing those kitsune scumbags gives him remorse even though it shouldn't. When people get massacred at Cheve he feels horrible about it and wants to try and stop it before he gets dragged off by Camilla.

Corrin is super naive in the Conquest path though and goes about trying to handle it all wrong. I guess that's a side effect of living in a castle your entire life with 0 outside experience. Hell, at the end of the game he doesn't even know what a royal banquet is when they host one.

And y'know (spoiler) tells him that Hoshido still hates Nohr even with the war over and things are now at peace since obviously they would and to be very careful if they have to go there. So if you think people are too forgiving in conquest, fear not. The nameless masses still hate "Lord Traitor".

[BruceLee]

Hm.. maybe I'm recalling differently but every time soldiers are needlessly killed Corrin ends up being pretty hurt over it.

The difference is that those deaths aren't being portrayed as ''for the greater good'' and weren't supposed to happen if it were up to Kamui. The deaths of the Hoshidans during the invasion are supposed to happen if it's up to Kamui.

And y'know (spoiler) tells him that Hoshido still hates Nohr even with the war over and things are now at peace since obviously they would and to be very careful if they have to go there. So if you think people are too forgiving in conquest, fear not. The nameless masses still hate "Lord Traitor".

Yes, as they should be. And then immediately after having said that Hinoka says she'll fix their views about you. That's the game telling us Kamui is in the right.

And then in the next scene he's going to a banquet, without a care in the world. No consequences.

Edited March 6, 2016 by BruceLee

[Abysswalker25]

The difference is that those deaths aren't being portrayed as ''for the greater good'' and weren't supposed to happen if it were up to Kamui. The deaths of the Hoshidans during the invasion are supposed to happen if it's up to Kamui.

Sorry I keep getting confused by your writing xD. Can you elaborate for the dumb guy again?

Yes, as they should be. And then immediately after having said that Hinoka says she'll fix their views about you. That's the game telling us Kamui is in the right.

And then in the next scene he's going to a banquet, without a care in the world. No consequences.

I doubt everyone would listen to Hinoka, queen or not in regards to that. Too much bad blood. And I don't think the game says Corrin is in the right, its just her trying to stop mob lynchings if they have to go to Hoshido for diplomatic reasons.

War is over/crowning celebrations are pretty common in Fire Emblem, and it looks like they did a bit of a timeskip. My bigger issue in this scene was that fact I was married to Azura and the dialogue didn't change because of it. Just felt.. weird.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Abysswalker25

[BruceLee]

Sorry I keep getting confused by your writing xD. Can you elaborate for the dumb guy again?

You said Kamui shows remorse over the deaths at cheve. The difference is that Kamui didn't mean for those deaths to happen. The deaths of the Hoshidans during the invasion were meant to happen if up to Kamui(and it was). Those deaths were ''for the good of everyone'', as he says himself.

Sorry if it's still not clear, i don't know how else to put it.

I doubt everyone would listen to Hinoka, queen or not in regards to that. Too much bad blood. And I don't think the game says Corrin is in the right, its just her trying to stop mob lynchings if they have to go to Hoshido for diplomatic reasons.

War is over/crowning celebrations are pretty common in Fire Emblem, and it looks like they did a bit of a timeskip. My bigger issue in this scene was that fact I was married to Azura and the dialogue didn't change because of it. Just felt.. weird.

Even if some Hoshidans don't listen to Hinoka, the game is still telling us Kamui is in the right and should be forgiven, through Hinoka's words.

Edited March 7, 2016 by BruceLee

[Abysswalker25]

You said Kamui shows remorse over the deaths at cheve. The difference is that Kamui didn't mean for those deaths to happen. The deaths of the Hoshidans during the invasion were meant to happen if up to Kamui(and it was). Those deaths were ''for the good of everyone'', as he says himself.

Sorry if it's still not clear, i don't know how else to put it.

Even if some Hoshidans don't listen to Hinoka, the game is still telling us Kamui is in the right and should be forgiven, through Hinoka's words.

Alright, you explained that much better, thank you.

Actually, he doesn't say to kill or spare anyone, so I think it is up to interpretation. I mean you have the thing at Fort Jinya where he spares those forces (and then Hans and Iago show up again, doing their thing and Xander is ready to execute them then and there before Garon shows up and saves them). Then you have the Trump Wall Wall of Suzanoh, where it looks like Takumi's retainers die but they.. spare the generics? There was prisoners they had to tend to. Also when does he say their deaths were "for the good of everyone"? Which chapter, if you can recall?

What Hinoka said can be viewed in different ways then I guess.

Still you managed to bring something to me, the game doesn't really explain shit in the second-half of the game. It's more vague.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Abysswalker25

[BruceLee]

Alright, you explained that much better, thank you.

Actually, he doesn't say to kill or spare anyone, so I think it is up to interpretation. I mean you have the thing at Fort Jinya where he spares those forces (and then Hans and Iago show up again, doing their thing and Xander is ready to execute them then and there before Garon shows up and saves them). Then you have the Trump Wall Wall of Suzanoh, where it looks like Takumi's retainers die but they.. spare the generics? There was prisoners they had to tend to. Also when does he say their deaths were "for the good of everyone"? Which chapter, if you can recall?

What Hinoka said can be viewed in different ways then I guess.

Still you managed to bring something to me, the game doesn't really explain shit in the second-half of the game. It's more vague.

After the fight with Ryoma, he says everything he's done has been for the good of everyone. I assume that includes helping with the invasion.

[Water Mage]

If I'm not mistaken, Corrim spares all the soldiers from Chapter 8 to Chapter 18

In those chapters, there are no deaths, unless is a player character.

After the fight with the Kitsune things get complicated.

Do they kill Hinoka's soldiers?

And do they kill Ryoma's soldiers?

I'm pretty sure Saizo and Kagero die if you defeat them, while Azama and Setsuna survive if you defeat them.

And what about Iago's soldiers in Chapter 26?

Are they spared?

Edited March 7, 2016 by Water Mage

[Sunwoo]

Are there even any mentions of sparing the Nohrian soldiers that Kamui and company fight? While the Hoshidans are the majority of Conquest's enemies, I can't help but feel that Nohr!Kamui has a disregard for Nohrian lives although they go out of their way to spare Hoshidan lives until they don't.

[BruceLee]

If I'm not mistaken, Corrim spares all the soldiers from Chapter 8 to Chapter 18

In those chapters, there are no deaths, unless is a player character.

After the fight with the Kitsune things get complicated.

Do they kill Hinoka's soldiers?

And do they kill Ryoma's soldiers?

I'm pretty sure Saizo and Kagero die if you defeat them, while Azama and Setsuna survive if you defeat them.

And what about Iago's soldiers in Chapter 26?

Are they spared?

I assume all of Ryoma's soldiers got killed since Garon and Iago were there.

[eclipse]

We are definitely giving it more thought than the writers did.

I STRONGLY disagree. However, I'm not finished with the game, so I can't argue the endgame stuff (which is where things really go down). Furthermore, I don't think I'm talking to a receptive audience, so trying to explain this would be a gigantic waste of my time.

So in the meantime, everyone who isn't fond of Corrin, just how was the story of Nohr supposed to play out, plot and character-wise? Besides the "don't kill anyone" thing. . .I think it's stupid and unrealistic, but I suspect there's more to it than that.

[NekoKnight]

I STRONGLY disagree. However, I'm not finished with the game, so I can't argue the endgame stuff (which is where things really go down). Furthermore, I don't think I'm talking to a receptive audience, so trying to explain this would be a gigantic waste of my time.

So in the meantime, everyone who isn't fond of Corrin, just how was the story of Nohr supposed to play out, plot and character-wise? Besides the "don't kill anyone" thing. . .I think it's stupid and unrealistic, but I suspect there's more to it than that.

We're listening if you have a commentary. Some of the Nohr hate is hype backlash but a lot of arguments have been laid out for why people think it fails as a narrative.

As for how people thought Conquest would/should play out, most wanted the "reform a unruly country from within" advertised early on. The premise is perfect, deeper than any Fire Emblem game before, in my opinion. It wasn't to be.

[eclipse]

We're listening if you have a commentary. Some of the Nohr hate is hype backlash but a lot of arguments have been laid out for why people think it fails as a narrative.

As for how people thought Conquest would/should play out, most wanted the "reform a unruly country from within" advertised early on. The premise is perfect, deeper than any Fire Emblem game before, in my opinion. It wasn't to be.

I don't want what people think, or what you think other people think. I want YOUR opinion of how it should have played out.

Because if you're unhappy, then you must have some idea of how it should've played out. The more detail, the better.

Just finished Chapter 21 - I'll need to reread some of the beginning script in Nohr, to make sure that what I remember matches up to what's said. I'm positive Revelations explains everything else, BUT I want to frame this in terms of what each character knows on the Nohr path. . .not what we the audience know. Given the pace that I'm going through the game, I probably won't be done much before next week. I blame Chapter 17.

Edited March 7, 2016 by eclipse

[NekoKnight]

I don't want what people think, or what you think other people think. I want YOUR opinion of how it should have played out.

Because if you're unhappy, then you must have some idea of how it should've played out. The more detail, the better.

Just finished Chapter 21 - I'll need to reread some of the beginning script in Nohr, to make sure that what I remember matches up to what's said. I'm positive Revelations explains everything else, BUT I want to frame this in terms of what each character knows on the Nohr path. . .not what we the audience know. Given the pace that I'm going through the game, I probably won't be done much before next week. I blame Chapter 17.

Certainly. If I were in charge of writing the story, sticking to the original ideas as much as possible, the invasion would be about a desperate need for resources instead of Garon doing it because he's evil. Kamui would join his Nohrian siblings, partially out love for them but also for his country. He doesn't want to harm Hoshido but Marx would convince him of the necessity for Nohr's survival. The invasion would begin earlier with less dicking about in Nohr. After the invasion of Hoshido is complete, Ryoma is killed and Garon sits on the throne. Garon's occupation becomes increasingly brutal and insurgent groups make regular attacks. Eventually Kamui's conscious can abide Garon's brutality no longer and he conspires with other rebellious factions to eventually usurp Garon and put Marx on the throne. That's the gist of it, anyway.

"Just because the story didn't go your way, doesn't mean it's a bad story", you might be thinking. But the direction I have in mind solves some of the canon story's critical weaknesses.

-Kamui and his siblings now have agency. They do things because they want to and they get results.

-Nohr is no longer deeply unsympathetic and you might support them, even if they are invading a peaceful nation.

-Garon is no longer a cartoon villain obsessed with making you sad for some reason.

-The plot doesn't need to go out of its way to make Kamui a moral paragon because he isn't.

-No need for the mountains of contrivances that Azura's plan depends on.

[Azure Sen]

So in the meantime, everyone who isn't fond of Corrin, just how was the story of Nohr supposed to play out, plot and character-wise? Besides the "don't kill anyone" thing. . .I think it's stupid and unrealistic, but I suspect there's more to it than that.

Here's a rough outline of how I would have liked it to gone:

• While the Cheve resistance is badly damaged in the aftermath of Chapter 13, Scarlet and some of its members survive.
• In the aftermath of Chapter 13, Corrin, frustrated with his inability to change anything and horrified by his father's brutality, realizes that allowing Garon to remain on the throne would be a mistake and begins plotting against Garon.
• As luck would have it, the trip to the IK and Azura's revelation (which would preferably happen with the other Nohr sibs around in this version) gives him all the help he needs to get it done, in the form of Azura and the other siblings.
• The story would then shift to the siblings' efforts to weaken Garon and Iago's influence in the Nohr government; assassinating officials loyal to Garon or Iago and replacing them with pro-Xander individuals, gathering allies in the form of the Ice Tribe and the Cheve resistance, quietly sabotaging all attempts to invade Hoshido, among other actions. Power plays like this please Garon despite Iago's attempts to block the siblings' efforts.
• Hans is the first of the cronies to die, because he overstayed his welcome in canon and I'm spiteful like that.
• If Chapter 18 still happens, the Corrin and the Nohr siblings convince the Hoshido siblings of their plan. They join together to take down Zola, one of Iago's cronies, and the Hoshido siblings discreetly aid the Nohr siblings in any way they can.
• Finally, once all of the pieces are in place, the siblings arrange for Azura to dance for Garon, with the intent of forcing him to reveal his true form, which they fight and defeat.
• There are still hints that a bigger force is in play.
• Corrin actually changes; instead of the naive and ineffectual character he remains in canon, he becomes more willing to get his hands dirty and commit less than moral actions in order to change Nohr for the better.
• While hesitant at first, Xander is eventually forced to admit that his father has changed from the man who he remembers and swears his blade to Corrin's cause.
• Camilla and Leo don't really undergo any major changes in my version, beyond being more willing to stand up to Garon because they lack the good memories of him that Xander has.
• Elise is actually relevant in the story, acting as a sort of moral compass for the elder siblings, reminding them of why they're doing what they're doing and the Nohr they hope to create.

But this is just a rough outline I wrote up in about 20 minutes, and I'm trying to sort of keep things in line with Conquest.

Edited March 7, 2016 by AzureSen

[Time the Crestfallen]

I don't want to post the huge text dump that I've done previously, but here's the gist of my idea:

-More choices with how Corrin acts in the scenes at the end of chapters, with the player being either rewarded or punished based on whether or not Garon is satisfied by their decision.

-Rewriting Garon to be a mix between what we thought he would be before release and Walhart.

-Being able to choose between overthrowing Garon and putting Xander on the thrown or supporting Garon. Xander would represent a more diplomatic Nohr that has to play nice with other nations while Garon would represent Nohrian domination over the entire continent, which leads to resentment from other nations i.e. Nohrian Imperialism or Nohrian Diplomacy.

[Ginkgo]

One thing that really did kind of stand out to me is why Hans didn't have an "unfortunate accident" in like literally any chapter he appeared in. I mean, even if he says it's "kings orders" that he accompany you, you're still the goddamn prince and he repeatedly engages in treasonous activities. I really fail to see why any of your core troops would have a moral/logical reason to protest a misplaced hoshidan weapon in his back mid-mission unless Corrin is simply too much of a priss to fully accept the responsibilities of the morally ambiguous choice he made in siding with Nohr.

[Tolvir]

Are there even any mentions of sparing the Nohrian soldiers that Kamui and company fight? While the Hoshidans are the majority of Conquest's enemies, I can't help but feel that Nohr!Kamui has a disregard for Nohrian lives although they go out of their way to spare Hoshidan lives until they don't.

With the fight with Iago and Hans at least I am pretty sure that no one lives through that, though I can see things like the maids being spared since for the most part they are non-combatants besides using staves. Overall I don't really blame him for that one though since it was Iago and Han's soldiers. Other than that I can't think of any other moment where I had to fight Nohrians in Conquest. Birthright on the other hand as far as I know doesn't spare anyone, even the Ice Tribe gets killed.

To be honest there were some points I got frustrated because Garon didn't seem to care about Hans and Iago, so I am pretty sure Corrin could of killed one of them and come up with a good excuse as to why he did it. I understand they were trying to build them up to be hated enemies, but it could of been dealt with a lot sooner than it did. Ryoma's life would of been saved if Iago died even 1 chapter earlier. Sure you have the excuse of Garon's Iron Fist he has over you, but to be honest its shown he doesn't give two shits about Iago, so if he wound up dead and Corrin gave a half-assed excuse for his death, Garon really wouldn't of cared. Same goes for Hans.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Tolvir

[arvilino]

With the fight with Iago and Hans at least I am pretty sure that no one lives through that, though I can see things like the maids being spared since for the most part they are non-combatants besides using staves. Overall I don't really blame him for that one though since it was Iago and Han's soldiers. Other than that I can't think of any other moment where I had to fight Nohrians in Conquest. Birthright on the other hand as far as I know doesn't spare anyone, even the Ice Tribe gets killed.

To be honest there were some points I got frustrated because Garon didn't seem to care about Hans and Iago, so I am pretty sure Corrin could of killed one of them and come up with a good excuse as to why he did it. I understand they were trying to build them up to be hated enemies, but it could of been dealt with a lot sooner than it did. Ryoma's life would of been saved if Iago died even 1 chapter earlier. Sure you have the excuse of Garon's Iron Fist he has over you, but to be honest its shown he doesn't give two shits about Iago, so if he wound up dead and Corrin gave a half-assed excuse for his death, Garon really wouldn't of cared. Same goes for Hans.

Garon probably doesn't care about them. Iago and Hans aren't causes of Garon's Nohr, they're symptoms. Killing Iago, Hans, Zoura, or Daniella is only killing people who follow Garon's orders which in the grand scheme with a constant theme being that Garon's orders supercede the rest of the royal family the deaths of characters like those four across either route would mean little(well other than Zoura's who's was necessary to silence him) as there'd always be people to replace them.

I think however even though Garon probably doesn't care about them, Iago and/or Hans dying might highlight Corrin is willing to defy or impede Garon directly which ofcourse could make Garon(or Anankos) change their plan to keep Corrin alive to torture him/her if he/she becomes a liability to their other plans.

[Tolvir]

Garon probably doesn't care about them. Iago and Hans aren't causes of Garon's Nohr, they're symptoms. Killing Iago, Hans, Zoura, or Daniella is only killing people who follow Garon's orders which in the grand scheme with a constant theme being that Garon's orders supercede the rest of the royal family the deaths of characters like those four across either route would mean little(well other than Zoura's who's was necessary to silence him) as there'd always be people to replace them.

I think however even though Garon probably doesn't care about them, Iago and/or Hans dying might highlight Corrin is willing to defy or impede Garon directly which ofcourse could make Garon(or Anankos) change their plan to keep Corrin alive to torture him/her if he/she becomes a liability to their other plans.

That is why I said they could use excuses for why he killed him. An even better way, which would of made Corrin seem more intelligent, is to have Corrin manipulating things like framing Iago by making it seem like he aided rebels somewhere or made it seem like he was working behind Garon's back, which would then result in Garon executing him instead of Corrin needing to do it. All I was pointing out is there was more they could do other than just blindly follow orders, hell even one of the siblings like Xander could of been doing this type of thing. Dismantling Garon's power through mind games. Xander is in perfect position to completely dismantle Garon's power because he thinks he is still loyal, and is more likely to believe Xander over Iago or Hans.

[Rapier]

One thing that really did kind of stand out to me is why Hans didn't have an "unfortunate accident" in like literally any chapter he appeared in. I mean, even if he says it's "kings orders" that he accompany you, you're still the goddamn prince and he repeatedly engages in treasonous activities. I really fail to see why any of your core troops would have a moral/logical reason to protest a misplaced hoshidan weapon in his back mid-mission unless Corrin is simply too much of a priss to fully accept the responsibilities of the morally ambiguous choice he made in siding with Nohr.

I also wondered why Hans couldn't have been killed by Corrin's orders secretly, but they're that naive and stupid.

It'd be nice to read something with a pragmatist Corrin on Conquest (somehow) instead of a dumb one.

[BruceLee]

If Kamui really was a hero he would strike Hans down in chapter 13, regardless of the consequences. A hero doesn't stand around while civilians are slaughtered in front of him, atleast not a likable one.

I often imagine what Ike(for example) would have done in that situation. And then i realize Kamui is a little bitch.

[FEF]

If I'm not mistaken, Corrim spares all the soldiers from Chapter 8 to Chapter 18

In those chapters, there are no deaths, unless is a player character.

After the fight with the Kitsune things get complicated.

Do they kill Hinoka's soldiers?

And do they kill Ryoma's soldiers?

I'm pretty sure Saizo and Kagero die if you defeat them, while Azama and Setsuna survive if you defeat them.

And what about Iago's soldiers in Chapter 26?

Are they spared?

Those Nohrian enemy soldiers in 18 are glossed over, but really they're totally dead.

Leo kills Zola so that he can't go tell Garon about anything - so then it only makes sense that every single Nohrian soldier - who were only following orders that would have ended the war and prevented more bloodshed, mind you - are dead.

Really, can we just appreciate how dumb 18 in general is? So there's the obvious thing mentioned over and over again, that saving the Hoshidans is pointless, that Corrin has the option to end the war right there, and values the lives of his 4 siblings over hundreds/thousands of soldiers.

Now, that could be a cool character trait to explore - the fact that Corrin knows he's doing the wrong thing but still can't bring himself to watch his family die. But it's never presented as such. Corrin's just doing "the right thing" And Zola is the one in the wrong here, for finding a method to end the war without more huge battles and so many casualties.

But has anybody considered how spectacularly lucky Corrin is that Iago never found out about this crap? I mean, Consider all the other places Iago can beam his image to in Conquest alone - Notre Sagesse comes to mind immediately. Iago can just warp his holographic image (or was that the man himself? I can't keep track anymore) up to what's supposed to be a room that is a legendary challenge to access. Yet apparently there's no magic or anything to prevent him from just doing that.

What are the odds, then, that Iago's information happens to have this massive blind spot in Izumo? Again, this isn't impossible on its own, but the fact that nobody considers that Iago or Garon could be watching from the shadows until Leo kills Zola after the fight, is such a massive oversight.

[Sunwoo]

With the fight with Iago and Hans at least I am pretty sure that no one lives through that, though I can see things like the maids being spared since for the most part they are non-combatants besides using staves. Overall I don't really blame him for that one though since it was Iago and Han's soldiers. Other than that I can't think of any other moment where I had to fight Nohrians in Conquest. Birthright on the other hand as far as I know doesn't spare anyone, even the Ice Tribe gets killed.

Admittedly I only actually played through English Birthright once, but I thought that Flora made note of how Kamui spared as many people as he could in that chapter?

EDIT:

Really, can we just appreciate how dumb 18 in general is? So there's the obvious thing mentioned over and over again, that saving the Hoshidans is pointless, that Corrin has the option to end the war right there, and values the lives of his 4 siblings over hundreds/thousands of soldiers.

And since two of those siblings die anyway before Conquest is over, Kamui's actions in chapter 18 seem moot anyway. Might've actually been more merciful to just let them die (or be captured) in chapter 18 instead of dragging out their demises until the last handful of chapters.

Edited March 7, 2016 by Sunwoo