So why exactly do people call Conquest Corrin an idiot?(Conquest spoilers)

[Dark Holy Elf]

I, for one, am very glad that Corrin isn't Ike or Robin. I'm not really a big fan of either, they're too perfect, yeah they have determination and can accomplish anything (especially Ike). Seen that story before, I'm bored of it. There's only so many times you can keep me interested with the "hero overcomes impossible odds" story I've seen hundreds of times before. Awakening sure as hell didn't succeed. Path of Radiance did for a while because the stuff in Begnion is legit interesting, but I definitely got bored later on.

Different stories demand different characters. Corrin is a bit of a weakling and that's okay. She makes some big mistakes and it's interesting to think about why, because there are actually pretty good, in-character reasons for all of them! But some people don't like to see that in characters. That's okay, that's your right, I just disagree.

To be honest given how much random Corrin worship exists in some aspects of the game (everyone of the opposite sex can marry you, you perfect being you! And like a dozen characters have loyalty/love to you as one of their main traits!), I'm pretty happy she isn't just Little Ms. Perfect in the main plot.

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

"i hate micaiah for being a mary sue but i want more perfect characters like ike or robin"

i'm certain noone has said this and i will not strawman this into anyone's discussion, but i'm just seeing the similarity's again from the past.

Edited March 10, 2016 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[Abysswalker25]

To be honest given how much random Corrin worship exists in some aspects of the game (everyone of the opposite sex can marry you, you perfect being you!

Fanservice and this was in Awakening too. Plus if they got rid of it now, it would piss a lot of people off because it is a popular feature. True, they don't have to do the marriage thing and just have them start dating or something or get married in the epilogue.

[Ebony]

Seriously? My opinion of Marx drops even more.

Basically yes.

Marxander is talking about how Camilla (and Elise iirc. Either before or after she joins you) joined Corrin and how it's a mistake and that their father isn't evil. Leo appears and takes him to the room.

I wish I grabbed a screen but it was Garon literally standing in front of his throne. Laughing. And he goes "Nohr... Hoshido... I'll turn them both to dust!" And Leo's like, "he's been acting like this recently. I think she's telling the truth." And Marxander's response was essentually, "we're still children of Nohr, so there's no talk of betraying father.

[NekoKnight]

Basically yes.

Marxander is talking about how Camilla (and Elise iirc. Either before or after she joins you) joined Corrin and how it's a mistake and that their father isn't evil. Leo appears and takes him to the room.

I wish I grabbed a screen but it was Garon literally standing in front of his throne. Laughing. And he goes "Nohr... Hoshido... I'll turn them both to dust!" And Leo's like, "he's been acting like this recently. I think she's telling the truth." And Marxander's response was essentually, "we're still children of Nohr, so there's no talk of betraying father.

Garon's going to need a full blown Villain Song before Marx takes things seriously.

The opera house was the perfect time for it! So much wasted potential.

[Skywolfe]

Garon's going to need a full blown Villain Song before Marx takes things seriously.

The opera house was the perfect time for it! So much wasted potential.

... After stalking this thread for a little while, just because I had nothing really to say that wasn't going to rehash any other arguments from either side...

I have to post solely because I am now picturing Garon singing "Be Prepared" from the Lion King, (or "Hellfire" from Hunchback of Notre Dame, don't question me) and I am laughing so hard that I'm going to wake my neighbours.

[Thane]

... After stalking this thread for a little while, just because I had nothing really to say that wasn't going to rehash any other arguments from either side...

I have to post solely because I am now picturing Garon singing "Be Prepared" from the Lion King, (or "Hellfire" from Hunchback of Notre Dame, don't question me) and I am laughing so hard that I'm going to wake my neighbours.

Pretty sure Garon is more of a "Hellfire" kind of guy, just substitute Esmeralda for Corrin.

So Revelation (is it Revelations or Revelation? I've seen it written differently everywhere) has finally been released in the US, huh? Great, now we can soon start talking about the many, many issues that route brings for real.

[Nanima]

As some people have pointed out what a factor

possessed Takumi would be against returning to Hoshido. Have you forgotten what happens in Birthright? Azura heals him with her song. Now you could argue that she was effectively evicted from Hoshido in Conquest, but that doesn't stop her from returning with Corrin and their group of loyalists (his retainers mostly, although I do believe that others could be convinced to join him too.). It's not like she would be able to stay in Nohr after that.

As for not gaining siblings to join your course: Again, Leon ceases all support of Gooron after being shown the crystal ball. Once he has enough evidence that the current king might not be his father, he stops following his orders. Now granted, this was after he was essentially banished from Nohr (through his failure to kill Corrin), but he still showed a remarkable willingness to support Corrin even though they were traitor to Nohr. Because he loves them.

Why would he not believe them on Conquest, when they have been nothing but loyal up to now? When they have worked with Garon even after multiple assassination attempts.

Azura only showing the crystal to Corrin is one of the dumbest plot contrivances in the entire story.

[BruceLee]

"i hate micaiah for being a mary sue but i want more perfect characters like ike or robin"

i'm certain noone has said this and i will not strawman this into anyone's discussion, but i'm just seeing the similarity's again from the past.

I disagree with Ike being perfect, but i will take him or Robin over Nohr!Corrin any day.

Again, i want a hero, not a coward. I can't empathize with a coward.

Edited March 10, 2016 by BruceLee

[Abysswalker25]

I disagree with Ike being perfect, but i will take him or Robin over Nohr!Corrin any day.

Again, i want a hero, not a coward. I can't empathize with a coward.

I wouldn't say hes a coward. Naive and kind of dumb, yes.

[BruceLee]

I wouldn't say hes a coward. Naive and kind of dumb, yes.

Definition of coward:

''A person who shrinks from or avoids danger, pain, or difficulty''

What does Corrin do when Hans is walking around killing civilians in front of his eyes? Nothing. All Hans does is tell him it's Garon's orders and Corrin backs down immediately, letting him continue with the killing of civilians.

Edited March 10, 2016 by BruceLee

[Emblem Blade]

Definition of coward:

''A person who shrinks from or avoids danger, pain, or difficulty''

What does Corrin do when Hans is walking around killing civilians in front of his eyes? Nothing. All Hans does is tell him it's Garon's orders and Corrin backs down immediately, letting him continue with the killing of civilians.

There is a point in time when avoiding danger is best.

In that case Corrin should have either told Hans to stop what he was doing or have had Xander or Leo execute the bastard.

[Seanp12]

In the real world, people who openly rebel against oppressive regimes without a plan end up with their heads detached. I understand this is a fantasy game, but that doesn't mean those people are cowards. Otherwise the average Holocaust survivor would be a coward.

[Thane]

In the real world, people who openly rebel against oppressive regimes without a plan end up with their heads detached. I understand this is a fantasy game, but that doesn't mean those people are cowards. Otherwise the average Holocaust survivor would be a coward.

This may be the single worst example I've ever heard in my entire life. Do you even realize what it is you're saying and that you're comparing one of the most oppressed minorities in history during some of the darkest years for all of humanity to fictional royals?

I'm shocked and appalled that you thought this would be an apt comparison.

[Abysswalker25]

Definition of coward:

''A person who shrinks from or avoids danger, pain, or difficulty''

What does Corrin do when Hans is walking around killing civilians in front of his eyes? Nothing. All Hans does is tell him it's Garon's orders and Corrin backs down immediately, letting him continue with the killing of civilians.

Corrin does try to stop it before Camilla drags him off. If he was a coward, he wouldn't have even bothered to fight Cheve or anyone in the first place and would've died a long time ago.

[NekoKnight]

In the real world, people who openly rebel against oppressive regimes without a plan end up with their heads detached. I understand this is a fantasy game, but that doesn't mean those people are cowards. Otherwise the average Holocaust survivor would be a coward.

Did you notice how at the choice Kamui said wanted to change Nohr from within but he didn't actually have a plan for how to do it? Instead, he almost gets executed a fourth time by the same guy. And people wonder why people think Nohr!Kamui is dumb.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Corrin is paralysed with fear/indecision when it comes to betraying her dad. Wouldn't you be? You can attack Hans, yeah. And then assuming Hans doesn't just kill you, you would go home to be executed by your dad, a disappointment in the eyes of the elder brother you look up to. Cowardly? If you want to call it that, go ahead. But very real, and interesting to watch.

I prefer interesting situations to big heroes who always do the right thing and always have it work out because they're just that heroic.

Fanservice and this was in Awakening too. Plus if they got rid of it now, it would piss a lot of people off because it is a popular feature.

I agree with this, but it doesn't mean I have to like it.

[Thane]

Corrin is paralysed with fear/indecision when it comes to betraying her dad. Wouldn't you be? You can attack Hans, yeah. And then assuming Hans doesn't just kill you, you would go home to be executed by your dad, a disappointment in the eyes of the elder brother you look up to. Cowardly? If you want to call it that, go ahead. But very real, and interesting to watch.

I prefer interesting situations to big heroes who always do the right thing and always have it work out because they're just that heroic.

Do you think anyone here who has been posting in this now-28 pages long thread wants to have a perfect main character? Do you really think we'd all be here discussing this matter for so long if we just thought Corrin simply wasn't good enough for us? I take it you've either not read or just ignored what we have been saying on this thread - or on this forum for about a year - if you make sweeping statements like that.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Thane

[arvilino]

Do you think anyone here who has been posting in this now-28 pages long thread wants to have a perfect main character? Do you really think we'd all be here discussing this matter for so long if we just thought Corrin simply wasn't good enough for us? I take it you've either not read or just ignored what we have been saying on this thread - or on this forum for about a year - if you make sweeping statements like that.

Dark Holy Elf didn't say "perfect" though. They said interesting instead of a "big hero".

A lot of proposed changes that have been discussed for Corrin involves him or her acting towards the most heroic course of option regardless of scenario e.g. " X is corrupt so I'll join a rebellion" which is standard "big hero" fare and something that has happened before in Fire Emblem(Marth in New Mystery) and a lot of the main characters tend towards. Changes like this remove the aspects that set the character apart from the other Fire Emblem main characters and would homogonises Corrin amongst the other Fire Emblem protagonists if she or he is just going to act and drive the plot in the same direction another character would.

It's understandable someone would find it less interesting if despite differences in character, environment and context Corrin just did the same things another Fire Emblem main hero would do in a roughly similar scenario.

Edited March 11, 2016 by arvilino

[Shadow Knight]

Dark Holy Elf didn't say "perfect" though. They said interesting instead of a "big hero".

A lot of proposed changes that have been discussed for Corrin involves him or her acting towards the most heroic course of option regardless of scenario e.g. " X is corrupt so I'll join a rebellion" which is standard "big hero" fare and something that has happened before in Fire Emblem(Marth in New Mystery) and a lot of the main characters tend towards. Changes like this remove the aspects that set the character apart from the other Fire Emblem main characters and would homogonises Corrin amongst the other Fire Emblem protagonists if she or he is just going to act and drive the plot in the same direction another character would.

It's understandable someone would find it less interesting if despite differences in character, environment and context Corrin just did the same things another Fire Emblem main hero would do in a roughly similar scenario.

I like the angle that Conquest takes where one of the reasons Corrin goes to war with hoshido is because he wants to restore peace. That makes sense to a degree and it gives Corrin an interesting character. In fact that's why I like Xander so much. His philosophy of peace at any cost is morally flawed, and yet it also makes sense.

But unfortunately that subplot takes a backseat to that stupid revealing throne plot.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Shadow Knight

[Emblem Blade]

I like the angle that Conquest takes where one of the reasons Corrin goes to war with hoshido is because he wants to restore peace. That makes sense to a degree and it gives Corrin an interesting character. In fact that's why I like Xander so much. His philosophy of peace at any cost is morally flawed, and yet it also makes sense.

But unfortunately that subplot takes a backseat to that stupid revealing throne plot.

Restore peace using war... That works, and it doesn't really work entirely at the same time due to the aftermath. You can end a war and restore 'peace' using war and violence yes but doing so causes a lot of sadness, despair and hopelessness at the same time when it causes some happiness and hope to return. Also, Corrin in both routes resorts to trying to avoid bloodshed if it can be avoided while trying to restore peace. Birthright: Try to ignore all other enemies and target King Garon. Fails since they clash with 3 out of the 4 Nohr Siblings and one of them dies while the other two are in depression since the other two have died. Conquest: Corrin takes a bit more action than in Birthright but they make quite a lot of mistakes even if some of their misactions end with decent results somehow. Not to mention that they ended up falling victim to the one they really didn't approve of by siding with Nohr. Xander is a good character but his morals kept screwing him up emotionally and mentally.

[eclipse]

My next class starts in a minute or so so I can't write a full response either (oh gods help me the one after this is even worse holy shit why am I even awake), but I do want to know if you've played Revelation yet.

I'm also curous to hear what made you feel more - I mean, I felt plenty of things as well, but none of them good - sure, a story should be able to make a reader feel all sorts of things, but Conquest made me feel all the wrong things for all the wrong reasons.

Sorry to hear about your back. I hope you'll feel better soon!

Back's gonna be messed up for a while. Going to see a doctor tomorrow, so I can't do a very long analysis.

I felt a lot more satisfied with how Conquest ran, as a story. It had its extremely stupid moments, but it was definitely different. And I did tear up a bit when:

Takumi finally has a heart-to-heart with Corrin. Cheesy, yes. Contrived, totally. But it was still really sweet.

Also:

[spoiler=Spoilers for Birthright and Conquest]Conquest is a near-perfect reflection of Birthright - two siblings die and two remain. No matter what, a peace treaty is signed, and Corrin can visit both sides. Oh, and Garon bites the dust, and Azura vanishes. I don't fault IS for doing this, since there's no guarantee that a customer would pick up both versions. Perhaps there's a budding FE fan who picks up a version of Fates, using the same logic I did when I first bought FE7 - "oh that guy over there is a total hottie!"

From a cynical point of view, it means that your choice had very little relevance, save who takes the throne. From a realistic one, it means that Corrin gets peace no matter what. From a PoV where I read into things too much, Corrin felt like he had to kill one of his siblings (Takumi and the bullshit called Endgame, but this isn't the thread to whine about gameplay mechanics), which is a marked change from Birthright, where he really didn't want to fight Xander. In other words, they look similar on the surface, but there's some very subtle differences between the two.

However, if you the player went in expecting anything. . .disappointment was inevitable. I went in expecting nothing, which is why I'm happier with Conquest's ending than I was with Birthright's.

I have the SE, so I'm currently playing through Revelations.

[spoiler=Revelations]Y'all need to channel your bitching over there. I know the concept of "how do you convince someone to follow you without directly naming your motives" is an interesting writing prompt, but a conveniently-placed curse is the wrong answer. The story looks like a trainwreck right now, and I'm on Chapter 19.

[Thane]

Dark Holy Elf didn't say "perfect" though. They said interesting instead of a "big hero".

A lot of proposed changes that have been discussed for Corrin involves him or her acting towards the most heroic course of option regardless of scenario e.g. " X is corrupt so I'll join a rebellion" which is standard "big hero" fare and something that has happened before in Fire Emblem(Marth in New Mystery) and a lot of the main characters tend towards. Changes like this remove the aspects that set the character apart from the other Fire Emblem main characters and would homogonises Corrin amongst the other Fire Emblem protagonists if she or he is just going to act and drive the plot in the same direction another character would.

It's understandable someone would find it less interesting if despite differences in character, environment and context Corrin just did the same things another Fire Emblem main hero would do in a roughly similar scenario.

You're arguing semantics and also ignoring what people here have written. The two key things I've seen people want out of Corrin are agency and for the narrative to stop treating him like a brittle porcelain doll. Many posters, myself included, have said that we wouldn't mind Corrin being an anti-villain or selfish, or a combination of the two. I also wouldn't mind Corrin failing more if it were a result of his own actions rather than constant inaction. However, as it stands, Corrin is just bossed around by all the characters around him, be it his siblings, Garon or Azura, and the plot is just a series of events rather than coherent narrative.

I'm not a big fan of Ike, but the best thing the Tellius series did was giving the player the feeling that something was always going on and that it was a result of either the villain or the heroes. Playing through them I never felt like everyone was just telling Ike what to do, nor did I ever get the feeling that he'd join Zelgius because clearly the end of the world was inevitable.

I also prefer "interesting situations" to big damn heroes; I believe every single person who has posted here does. That's what annoyed me with the post; if you claim otherwise you have to ignore a lot of people making a lot of valid statements. The story would've been infinitely better if the writers treated Corrin like a proper character instead of being afraid of hurting the players' self-insert.

Back's gonna be messed up for a while. Going to see a doctor tomorrow, so I can't do a very long analysis.

I felt a lot more satisfied with how Conquest ran, as a story. It had its extremely stupid moments, but it was definitely different. And I did tear up a bit when:

Takumi finally has a heart-to-heart with Corrin. Cheesy, yes. Contrived, totally. But it was still really sweet.

Also:

[spoiler=Spoilers for Birthright and Conquest]Conquest is a near-perfect reflection of Birthright - two siblings die and two remain. No matter what, a peace treaty is signed, and Corrin can visit both sides. Oh, and Garon bites the dust, and Azura vanishes. I don't fault IS for doing this, since there's no guarantee that a customer would pick up both versions. Perhaps there's a budding FE fan who picks up a version of Fates, using the same logic I did when I first bought FE7 - "oh that guy over there is a total hottie!"

From a cynical point of view, it means that your choice had very little relevance, save who takes the throne. From a realistic one, it means that Corrin gets peace no matter what. From a PoV where I read into things too much, Corrin felt like he had to kill one of his siblings (Takumi and the bullshit called Endgame, but this isn't the thread to whine about gameplay mechanics), which is a marked change from Birthright, where he really didn't want to fight Xander. In other words, they look similar on the surface, but there's some very subtle differences between the two.

However, if you the player went in expecting anything. . .disappointment was inevitable. I went in expecting nothing, which is why I'm happier with Conquest's ending than I was with Birthright's.

I have the SE, so I'm currently playing through Revelations.

[spoiler=Revelations]Y'all need to channel your bitching over there. I know the concept of "how do you convince someone to follow you without directly naming your motives" is an interesting writing prompt, but a conveniently-placed curse is the wrong answer. The story looks like a trainwreck right now, and I'm on Chapter 19.

Sorry to hear that. I don't know what happened or if it would be personal to ask, so I'll just wish you a speedy recovery.

[spoiler=Conquest endgame]I found those two elements to be awful, to be quite honest. Takumi had absolutely no reason to forgive Corrin, and neither did anyone else from his family. Corrin's actions caused them harm time and time again; hell, you annihilate Takumi's army and slay his retainers; I figure he'd be a lot more pissed off. We're never given a real reason other than the fact that he oh so desperately wanted to call Corrin his sibling which while not too far-fetched since Takumi's a good guy with a lot of self-confidence issues, but it still comes across as unbelievable, especially in spite of all that has happened.

The mirroring of the plot bothers me as well. It makes the choice feel redundant since you just get two slightly varied but similar results, ignoring the different paths you take to get there. It felt like a cop-out, like they were so afraid to make one version come across as better than the other - the funny thing is that they still failed given people's general opinions on Conquest.

[spoiler=Revelations]I've complained plenty about Revelations here (surprise surprise). In many aspects it's the worst story since it completely invalidates the other two, which is why I asked why you had played it. It has an awful pacing, relies even more than the other paths on plot contrivances or random events to move it forward and generally feels rushed with only the final destination planned out.

I'm looking forward to hearing more from you because in my personal opinion it gets even worse after chapter 19 which you're at right now.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Thane

[Mangs]

Corrin (and I know he can be a girl, but just for the sake of narration, I will say he) acts and behaves like a little child. He is naïve, and this actually sort of makes sense considering he has spent a large portion of his life in isolation (why Garron has been so stupid and not taken his sweet time to turn him into an evil little bastard during his childhood years, only Grima knows).

Yet despite acting like an immature little twat, with his “holier than thou” attitude and ridiculously silly worldview, he is treated like the next coming of Narga. Everyone bows down to him and praises him for doing seemingly nothing other than just being perfectly average.

I cannot take Corrin seriously, because he behaves like a little gullible kid. Like me and Ghast say a lot during our Fates LP, Leon should have been the main character of Nohr.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Mangs

[Emblem Blade]

You're arguing semantics and also ignoring what people here have written. The two key things I've seen people want out of Corrin are agency and for the narrative to stop treating him like a brittle porcelain doll. Many posters, myself included, have said that we wouldn't mind Corrin being an anti-villain or selfish, or a combination of the two. I also wouldn't mind Corrin failing more if it were a result of his own actions rather than constant inaction. However, as it stands, Corrin is just bossed around by all the characters around him, be it his siblings, Garon or Azura, and the plot is just a series of events rather than coherent narrative.

I'm not a big fan of Ike, but the best thing the Tellius series did was giving the player the feeling that something was always going on and that it was a result of either the villain or the heroes. Playing through them I never felt like everyone was just telling Ike what to do, nor did I ever get the feeling that he'd join Zelgius because clearly the end of the world was inevitable.

I also prefer "interesting situations" to big damn heroes; I believe every single person who has posted here does. That's what annoyed me with the post; if you claim otherwise you have to ignore a lot of people making a lot of valid statements. The story would've been infinitely better if the writers treated Corrin like a proper character instead of being afraid of hurting the players' self-insert.

Sorry to hear that. I don't know what happened or if it would be personal to ask, so I'll just wish you a speedy recovery.

[spoiler=Conquest endgame]I found those two elements to be awful, to be quite honest. Takumi had absolutely no reason to forgive Corrin, and neither did anyone else from his family. Corrin's actions caused them harm time and time again; hell, you annihilate Takumi's army and slay his retainers; I figure he'd be a lot more pissed off. We're never given a real reason other than the fact that he oh so desperately wanted to call Corrin his sibling which while not too far-fetched since Takumi's a good guy with a lot of self-confidence issues, but it still comes across as unbelievable, especially in spite of all that has happened.

The mirroring of the plot bothers me as well. It makes the choice feel redundant since you just get two slightly varied but similar results, ignoring the different paths you take to get there. It felt like a cop-out, like they were so afraid to make one version come across as better than the other - the funny thing is that they still failed given people's general opinions on Conquest.

[spoiler=Revelations]I've complained plenty about Revelations here (surprise surprise). In many aspects it's the worst story since it completely invalidates the other two, which is why I asked why you had played it. It has an awful pacing, relies even more than the other paths on plot contrivances or random events to move it forward and generally feels rushed with only the final destination planned out.

I'm looking forward to hearing more from you because in my personal opinion it gets even worse after chapter 19 which you're at right now.

Corrin's moral issues isn't what makes them bad. If that were the case than Awakening's ROBIN would also be at a serious fault since the two of them are basically expies to each other in subtly ways. Both of them are are morally challenged by decisions thrown at them, both try to minimize the amount of death possible (Robin doesn't try this all the time though), both will occasionally attempt to do the impossible and both take blame for events that they were in that failed for their side.

Birthright and Conquest are equally good and equally bad in their respective areas. Birthright had a bit of an odd story but the way how it should have gone was based off of Corrin's perspective not the narrator since it would have been more accurate. Conquest's Story was better but it diverges a lot because the script was overall messed up. Conquest had a better gameplay than Birthright, no competition at all even on the same difficulty. Both paths had decent characters but they were either morally screwed and/or duty bound, emotionally screwed or just too bland and didn't fit in. Also, both games are way too short chapter-wise due to My Castle making things far too easy.

Do remember that the Takumi that you face in the endgame is not the same Takumi that you knew prior. Takumi has a serious case of inferior complex which is why he tells everyone in his own family to shut up (even his older siblings Ryoma and Hinoka) back in Chapter 4 before you even choose which route. His inferior complex gets worse in Conquest but doesn't really change and he recovers in Birthright and Revelations. Also, Takumi 'apparently' realized his faults in the endgame and he wanted to his older sibling to kill him as they were his last family he knows (he doesn't know that his two sisters survived) and that he believes that they'll do the right thing for the world. His apologies are expressed since he realizes his weakness and faults while understanding that it's too late for him to be with Corrin at this point.

Revelations is a mixed bag of events. It explains why Birthright and Conquest took place far too early and basically ruined the plot just alone in Chapter 7 by itself that and the character development on some of the characters is barely noticeable for a third route. The only good part is possibly the ending but mostly due to the fact that the game throws out some random promoted enemies early into the game when you have no units that are near that level yet unless you grinded. These are just my thoughts.