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Why Birthright's Story is worse then Conquest (imo) (Big Spoilers for both Conquest and Birthright)


Locke087
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Please note that i think both of these story's are bad, but I think the backhand complements to Birthright's story are totally unjustified... Why because Birthright doesn't have a story (well anymore then Binding Blade or Shadow Dragon does). Birthright is just a bunch of random things that happen to the cast as it haphazardly ties maps together with little to no purpose.

Okay lets get into the nitty gritty of things

1. But Birthright has less bad plot elements

True, but with how lacking the story is in Birthright is should have NONE(Xander is so heartless he will not honor is own sister's death for reasons, Flora burns herself at the stake for reasons, song did not work fully on Takumi the first time on for reasons, Leo and Carmilla willl not join the fight because reasons), FE 6 and FE 11 have none, so messing up a story this simple actually is kind of impressive in a way.

2. But Conquest Corrin is a self absorbed pansy and a idiot

So is Birthright Corrin lets break this down

1. Self Absorbed: He is even more absorbed his own sense of justice then he is in conquest (just look at like any of his conversation with the Nohrian Royals).

2. Pansy & Idiot: That one Nohrian General you save (Zola) so an instants of Corrin being both so ya he still is.

So in the end I feel the same about birthright as I feel about binding blade their plots are so painfully generic and boring that they might as well not have one to begin with as far as I'm concerned. Conquest's story feels like they made an effort but failed, whereas birthright's feels like they never made any effort in the beginning. And frankly I find the fact that they can mess up a story this simple more insulting than messing up a more complicated plot like Conquest. It's like messing up Tetris (usually one of the first games you learn to program) I don't even know how you do it (though some companies have actually done that).

To me both conquest and birthright are bad but conquest isn't boring on top of it, birthright is. Frankly I don't deal in levels of bad that much, to me a story is bad or is it bad. That is to say once you have a bad story you've already done the damage, if you make it even worse you can't insult me that much more (heck you could make it unintentionally better). So if birthright wasn't boring, the stories of birthright and conquest would be equally bad to me, but since birthright is boring I consider it worse (along with the other reasons I stated).

Note: I will add more to this but right now I don't have time.

Edited by Locke087
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I agree with this completely tbh.

To add to this, I find it easier to sympathize with the characters in Conquest than the characters in Birthright, and Conquest had me generally invested in the narrative until the credits roll despite not being a good story, in Birthright I'm nearly to the point of skipping cutscenes because the narrative genuinely bores me. Conquest Corrin is a teddy bear and I love him, and to see him become so BORING in Birthright dissapoints the heck out of me

Edited by MCProductions
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this is less "conquest's story is better" and more "birthright's story is worse"

Actually, this is more of how both Conquest and Birthright's stories outright suck. That's what I'm getting the feeling out of this...none of this is 'which is better'. And as before...we can acknowledge that the stories both both Conquest and Birthright could be much better tuned and scripted.

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True fixed the title.

Still doesn't fix the fact that the stories for both the main games completely sucks.

I agree with this completely tbh.

To add to this, I find it easier to sympathize with the characters in Conquest than the characters in Birthright, and Conquest had me generally invested in the narrative until the credits roll despite not being a good story, in Birthright I'm nearly to the point of skipping cutscenes because the narrative genuinely bores me. Conquest Corrin is a teddy bear and I love him, and to see him become so BORING in Birthright dissapoints the heck out of me

It is easier to sympathize with characters easier in the Conquest Path than it is in Birthright but the story script in Conquest is just not that great. Really? Well, I'm on the verge of giving some Nohr characters ratings of 5 at the highest out of 10 in the Conquest Route due to how they act in that particular path, as well as giving some of the Hoshido characters average ratings in the Birthright Path. Boring or not, the only thing boring is that the game has two paths but came out in two separate cartridges when it have to be that way. The storyline each route could be a lot better, gameplay is wonderful as always and music still excels as normal for an FE game. Also, it's the opposite of what you think it is if you think hard enough. One would think that Birthright would have a peaceful solution and have less deaths involved due to the title, that's only half correct, there is a peaceful solution but that's after a lot of unneeded warfare and deaths involved. Conquest on the other hand would be expected to be dark and full of violence since you're fighting in a huge military, that is somewhat avoided. It's dark, but there's still light in the form of hope for peace. There's violence but most of it comes down to frustration and miscommunication not real angry, blood-hungry criminals.

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This isn't a cohesive argument. These aren't even cohesive sentences. Also, I don't see how Birthright has less of a story than Conquest. You didn't even spell "Birthright" right. What am I supposed to be convinced of?

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If i dont feel the compulsion to completely rewrite the story of Birthright, it means that its narrative is certainly not worse than Conquest's. (which is something i feel compelled to rewrite entirely) Birthright's story may be a bit bog-standard FE, but at least it makes sense.

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I just don't like the way they write it (both English and Japanese versions).

ie: "Why do I feel like I just saw Azura for the last time?"

I can deal with it, it just kinda irks me.

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When trying to make an argument for something, you're supposed to have evidence to back up your statements and explain said evidence to further prove your point.

If I can argue points at 3AM with a severe migraine and a lack of comprehension for more complex words/ideas, then so can you my friend.

What general? What exactly about the handling of this general proves Kamui to be an idiot equal to their Conquest characterization? What about the narrative was, in your words, "messed up"? What about the points that you listed have anything to do with how Birthright handled its story?

Details, man, they are important.

Edited by Vashiane
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This isn't a cohesive argument. These aren't even cohesive sentences. Also, I don't see how Birthright has less of a story than Conquest. You didn't even spell "Birthright" right. What am I supposed to be convinced of?

You sound like Takumi right now, that's a scary thought. Yes, this thread is going towards a possible useless direction, but it's only just begun. There are no convictions in a war between arguments, just statements and thoughts that get trampled.

Conquest does get a lot of hate, but at least it actually feels like a military campaign; Birthright feels more like a wacky anime adventure.

That's the point of Conquest's gameplay, more military with less resources therefore it makes your decision in-game more worthwhile. You can't grind so much, you only get exp. and gold in the story chapters and in DLC Chapters. Villains also become more aggressive and are more or less brave (and less passive like in Birthright) in Conquest.

Edited by Emblem Blade
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You sound like Takumi right now, that's a scary thought. Yes, this thread is going towards a possible useless direction, but it's only just begun. There are no convictions in a war between arguments, just statements and thoughts that get trampled.

Id like to ask why you feel the need to constantly make insipid comments in nearly every thread you post in, since you got here. Considering i dont think ive ever seen you post anything productive. The OP is trying to literally argue that Birthright's story is somehow worse than Conquest's. We obviously didnt play the same game(s) if this OP really thinks this. Birthright actually does more worldbuilding for Nohr than Conquest does. We dont even see or hear mention of the underground Nohr in its respective game. Not only that, but the Nohrian siblings' actions are less incomprehensible in Birthright.

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You sound like Takumi right now, that's a scary thought. Yes, this thread is going towards a possible useless direction, but it's only just begun. There are no convictions in a war between arguments, just statements and thoughts that get trampled.

Look. When you're like me and have basically never left the academic field, you do a lot of argumentative papers. You write a lot of research papers and essays based on analysis and evidence and coherent arguments. You learn to recognize things that are persuasive.

The OP is none of those things. Why is Birthright's story lacking compared to Conquest's? Why does Birthright lack a story while Conquest has one? Can you give more details on what makes Kamui self-absorbed and an idiot on both sides, because this is barely scratching the surface here. How does this make Birthright worse as opposed to just equal to Conquest.

It's not rocket science. It's just a persuasive argument.

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This isn't a cohesive argument. These aren't even cohesive sentences. Also, I don't see how Birthright has less of a story than Conquest. You didn't even spell "Birthright" right. What am I supposed to be convinced of?

Thanks Professor for the grammar police work... I was typing on phone so forgive me.

Also this statement "Also, I don't see how Birthright has less of a story than Conquest" I plan to dive into that more when I have time... Let's just say for now that I feel there is a greater disconnect between the events that happen in Birthright, it feels like nothing happens, and most chapters have little to no barring on the plot what so ever. Whereas Conquest has a greater driving force behind it, and most maps are actually relevant to the plot at large, even if that plot was stupid...

Edit: It seems you guys expected a essay out of me, sorry I don't have all the time in the world (though I plan on improving this post), I didn't make this thread to be the be all end all of arguement as to why Birthright is worse... I made it to say why I PERSONALLY enjoyed it's story less, which is because it is boring. I rather have a badly made plot then a boring and badly made plot.

Edited by Locke087
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Thanks Professer for the grammar police work... I was typing on phone so forgive me.

Also this statement "Also, I don't see how Birthright has less of a story than Conquest" I plan to dive into that more when I have time... Let's just say for now that I feel there is a greater disconnect between the events that happen in Birthright, it feels like nothing happens, and most chapters have little to no barring on the plot what so ever. Whereas Conquest has a greater driving force behind it, and most maps are actually relevant to the plot at large, even if that plot was stupid...

You spelled "professor" wrong.

Also, instead of posting a half-assed argument that's not remotely persuasive, why not just wait to write up the entire thing when you had more time. I also highly disagree with you that Birthright has a greater disconnect than Conquest, because Conquest felt more like random events just thrown together to me, but I'd have to see your reasonings as to why you feel that way.

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Don't worry guys, I'm about halfway through Conquest but unless something really awful happens to change my opinion I'm gonna write a big essay explaining why Conquest's story is great

Folgore Black you're fired :P:

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Meh. Birthright is boring at worst and mild at best, while Conquest is guilt-trippy, convoluted and an obvious tease for Revelation. Both tread around in circles like filler anime episodes and can't commit to one idea or another, while each betrays its own premise and tone with disproportionate fanservice which is divorced from any other aspect. That is, of course, setting gameplay aside since each has its pros and cons in that department.

Apples and oranges, in my opinion.

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That's the point of Conquest's gameplay, more military with less resources therefore it makes your decision in-game more worthwhile. You can't grind so much, you only get exp. and gold in the story chapters and in DLC Chapters. Villains also become more aggressive and are more or less brave (and less passive like in Birthright) in Conquest.

Sure, gameplay-wise Conquest is stricter, but both stories are ostensibly under the guise of a military campaign.

To see what I mean, compare the Sevenfold Sanctuary in Conquest and Birthright. In Conquest you are given orders to conquer the isle because it's held by the Hoshidans. Incidentally, you also happen to be told how to improve the Yato. In Birthright you put the war on hold and get teleported(!) there so you can "power up". It's like a training episode in DBZ.

Also, being able to grind isn't necessarily synonymous with levity. In Sacred Stones you could grind and that game was deathly serious.

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My opinion is probably not valid since I've yet to experience the whole game. But having just started Conquest, it already feels like you make the blatantly wrong decision and then give half-hearted excuses for it.

When Ryoma calls you out, I found all of his claims are valid. I don't see a single reason to go against him unlike Xander's thickheaded refusal to accept his dad is evil in Birthright

Edited by LeDom
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Look. When you're like me and have basically never left the academic field, you do a lot of argumentative papers. You write a lot of research papers and essays based on analysis and evidence and coherent arguments. You learn to recognize things that are persuasive.

The OP is none of those things. Why is Birthright's story lacking compared to Conquest's? Why does Birthright lack a story while Conquest has one? Can you give more details on what makes Kamui self-absorbed and an idiot on both sides, because this is barely scratching the surface here. How does this make Birthright worse as opposed to just equal to Conquest.

It's not rocket science. It's just a persuasive argument.

Ok let me give you my thoughts from how I view things then on how both versions are bad regarding some elements.

Regarding Birthright:

*Corrin is softer than they are in Birthright, mostly due to being around those who want peace. As a result he's less inclined to actually fighting when fighting is the only possible way around the obstacle as he wants to talk his way out of fighting. This is an issue because characters in Nohr mostly know how to handle situations through means of action and fighting, not talking to people when it become obvious that they won't even listen. The only person in Nohr who actually listens to Corrin is Elise, everyone else either sees Corrin a being who isn't worthy to be trusted or is to generous and weak.

*The story lacks dedication and drive. With as much of the peaceful title and characters want, it doesn't give so much of a compelling reason for why the events took place or why Nohr had to attack. In the latter case, it doesn't even give so much of an explanation outside of Sumeragi being killed and Corrin being captured as a child.

*Characters are too alike and not really unique. Some even share the same personalities from characters in earlier games.

*Too much emotional scenes take up a lot of time where Corrin and the army should be focusing on their actual mission, defeating King Garon.

*Some deaths come out of the thin air with no explanation or when they do, it's not needed. Kaze and Lilith come to mind in this regard.

*Gameplay is far too easy even on Lunatic/Classic thanks to the mechanics.

Regarding Conquest:

*Corrin makes mistakes that result with them looking like morons half way through and after that they continue to make some bad blunders. They make moral choices to spare enemies which isn't bad but they tend to hesitate afterwards. In a war, you're main focus is survival and ensuring that the enemy you face can't pose any threats in any form not making decisions that those below you can do for you. Decisions on these kinds of issues should be left to the mastermind of the team, in this case Leo. While they take more action then they do in Birthright, they still don't take action when they should instead they wait until those options don't work.

*Story was strong at first then died away due to how the scripts went.

*Some of the unique characters that get more spotlight still don't get much time. Garon has a much more prominent role in Conquest yet most of his time is offscreen.

*Some of the would-be-deaths and comments on deaths in the past aren't explained or very well elaborated on at all even in a path where they should be able to be spotted. How did Takumi not die when he fell off the bridge? If Xander knew the real Garon before he died, why didn't he tell this to anyone else so that everyone else could help prevent worthless fights once the fake Garon took over?

*Some of the characters that make scenes better or do the right thing in the long run don't get very good remarks. Hans kills some prisoners, ok that wasn't needed right now. However, what if said prisoners escaped and tried to kill Corrin? Hans did the right thing by making sure that said risks wouldn't be able to take place even though Corrin despised that action.

Anything else that I need to add?

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I'm gonna call bullshit on this because any problem Hoshido has is exacerbated to absurd levels in Conquest. Don't get me wrong Birthright is by no means a good plot, but you have a set goal that you are trying to achieve throughout the


1. But Birthright has less bad plot elements

1. Xander is a sycophantic imbecile in about every route and while he is thick headed he is by no means heartless. You should be able to see that in Elise's death scene.

2. Flora commits suicide because she regretted her decision of going against Corrin. I know this explicitly stated in Chapter 17. Not to mention, The Ice Tribe would be offed before Corrin could cry boo-hoo if Flora defected.

3. It's implied Azura's purging has limits as she realized Garon was a monster when her song failed. Anankos had a pretty strong grip on Takumi that didn't all vanished, and Iago exploited it... somehow. (Curse your Macguffin powers Iago!)

4. Something tells me that Camilla and Leo just might not be ready to battle their own country and their brother. That's like asking why Hinoka and Sakura won't fight for you on Conquest.


2. But Conquest Corrin is a self absorbed pansy and a idiot

So is Birthright Corrin lets break this down

1. Self Absorbed: He is even more absorbed his own sense of justice then he is in conquest (just look at like any of his conversation with the Nohrian Royals).

2. Pansy & Idiot: That one Nohrian General you save (i totally spaced his name) so an instants of Corrin being both so ya he still is.

So in the end Birthright inherits the problems of Conquest while also being boring so ya Birthright is worse (imo).

Note: I may add more to this but right now i can't be bother to.

How is Corrin in Hosh more self absorbed than their Nohr counterpart? Nohr Corrin believes that invading Hoshido was for the greater good, that's bullshit! They sacrifice the livelihood of an entire country just to let someone they know is evil sit on a magic throne to reveal his true identity to 4 other people who wouldn't believe you if you told them this. I'm not even going to go into how this destroys Azura's character and my brain cell matter. Corrin may trust Zola, but that is naivety, not cowardice. Also, It takes Nohrrin far longer to realize that "hey maybe that guy that has tried to kill me on multiple occasions, laughs maniacally within earshot of possible opposition, and orders genocides because it's fun might be evil!" than it does in Birthright which shows that Nohrrin's choice is extremely flimsy and selfish. I might elaborate later, but I got to go to bed, and my finger is messed up and I can't type right now.

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Yes. What the hell is your argument?

What am I trying to say? I'm giving my points as to why both Birthright and Conquest are equally poor regarding some elements in the game that were great up until IS decided to make things more 'unique' from other games that's what. Just about every FE game prior to Fates (and Awakening to an extent) had a great storyline to back up the game, great balance overall regarding mechanics and good characters who either remained true to what people wanted them to be or became closer to what people wanted them to be. Most of the FE games prior to Awakening even had better scripts that were far better off looking like they could be used in another gaming franchise.

Ok look, what I'm addressing here is that Fates took a step in the wrong direction as a whole. I'm not looking at it from one side anymore regarding the paths, I'll either give my statements and reasons for why I think Fates is good or bad. I won't give both simultaneously on the same response. I gave you my thoughts and statements on why both Birthright and Conquest honestly suck in a way that I view. I'm no teacher so I'm not trying to lecture anyone.

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