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Jedi

[SSB4] Newer Patch discussion, Mewtwo wins a major tourney

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I don't know. The confirmed Sheik nerfs sound smart to me. They should make her less dominant in a 1on1 without making her even worse in a battle royal then she already is.

Not sure why Corrin would need any nerfs besides his counter, though. Like, stuff like his charged neutral-b can be devastating but by now people should have learned how to deal with it. And while the nerf to his counter is appreciated, it looks to me like it's still pretty dumb.

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I don't know. The confirmed Sheik nerfs sound smart to me. They should make her less dominant in a 1on1 without making her even worse in a battle royal then she already is.

The problem is, it allows Bayonetta to continue her dominance, they nerfed pretty much every possible major threat she had outside of like Rosalina, Sonic and a few others.

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Wow, I was not expecting this at all.

Kinnnda upset about the unnecessary (non-Counter) Corrin nerfs, and the Sheik stuff seems a bit extreme, but otherwise it looks okay.

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The problem is, it allows Bayonetta to continue her dominance, they nerfed pretty much every possible major threat she had outside of like Rosalina, Sonic and a few others.

But Bayonetta might have gotten more nerfs then what is currently listed on Smashboards, couldn't she?

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But Bayonetta might have gotten more nerfs then what is currently listed on Smashboards, couldn't she?

Its possible yeah, but I haven't really heard anything major regarding her, and the current nerfs are being seen as a slap on the wrist.

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I doubt more nerfs are gonna come in than what we already know, since data dumping has already happened. The Witch Time nerf is important, but that's just nerfing a particularly egregiously terrible aspect of her design, without touching the core of her strength.

I would much rather have Sheik — a character whose dominance is largely due to her strong neutral game — as the "best character" than someone like ZSS or Bayonetta or (old) MK, which thrive off of getting one good hit and converting that into a KO.

More or less paraphrasing from some guy on /r/smashbros- Sheik has to constantly win the neutral, which is far more mentally taxing for both players than turning a single mistake into a lost stock.

Note that Sheik retains much of her strong neutral game for most of the match, but at high% she can do very, very little against a shielding foe, which hurts her very significantly.

This all being said, we also haven't had enough time for either the Bayonetta meta or the Bayonetta counterplay meta to advance far enough to really know that much.

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screw this patch. sheik will still be the best and will only tale lonher to kill with. cloud will now camp more and kill later. zss now has wprse damage output, therefore it takes more effort to kill with her despite her already risky moveset. same thing for meta knight (japan found a new kill confirm already, but dair chains definitely won't work on every character). other characters getting minor kbg changes is barely a buff for them at all, it's like giving a homeless person pennies. a few low tiers got relevant buffs like (slightly) improved movement and landing lag, but that doesn't make up for what happened to the high tiers.

basically, a step toward brawl.

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Theres alot more data coming up, but i'll post it later when its all in one spot.

Apologies for the wait.

Edited by Jedi

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This patch leaves a bad taste in my mouth, for reasons stated above.

They nerfed one of Cloud's least offensive tools?

They gave freaking Corrin a bunch of unnecessary nerfs while leaving Bayo virtually untouched?

Who made these decisions?

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This patch leaves a bad taste in my mouth, for reasons stated above.

They nerfed one of Cloud's least offensive tools?

They gave freaking Corrin a bunch of unnecessary nerfs while leaving Bayo virtually untouched?

Who made these decisions?

Bayo's been touched, we've discovered Witch Time has been hit quite a bit, along with knockback on a number of her moves.

Also Least offensive? People were finding kill confirms into Finishing Touch, to be fair to that nerf in particular among his other ones. Now they have to work a bit harder for those to even have a chance of working.

Edited by Jedi

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This patch leaves a bad taste in my mouth, for reasons stated above.

They nerfed one of Cloud's least offensive tools?

They gave freaking Corrin a bunch of unnecessary nerfs while leaving Bayo virtually untouched?

Who made these decisions?

Hold your horses, buckaroo. At first glance it might seem pretty minor, but the nerfs have a pretty significant impact on medium-level play upwards. It's astounding what little things can do!

In other news, Link gets more buffs that probably don't help much! I'd kill to get some frame improvements. I have a feeling Kirby's been sneaking up on everyone, he's gotten a lot in the last few patches.

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Hold your horses, buckaroo. At first glance it might seem pretty minor, but the nerfs have a pretty significant impact on medium-level play upwards. It's astounding what little things can do!

In other news, Link gets more buffs that probably don't help much! I'd kill to get some frame improvements. I have a feeling Kirby's been sneaking up on everyone, he's gotten a lot in the last few patches.

Shin you might be happy about these Charizard buffs.

Air speed 0.87 -> 0.92

Weight 115 -> 116

Side-B(On ground, On air)

Flag change Hitbox -> Special Hitbox

Nair Damage 10/7/7/7 -> 12/9/9/9 KBG 90 -> 78

Fair Damage 11 -> 12

Fair(Late) Damage 12 -> 13

Bair Damage 15/13/10/10 -> 16/14/11/11 Sweetspot Size 4.5-> 5

Landing lag

Nair 22 -> 20

Fair 31 -> 22

Bair 33 -> 24

Uair 22 -> 20

Dair 35 -> 33

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Bayo's been touched, we've discovered Witch Time has been hit quite a bit, along with knockback on a number of her moves.

Also Least offensive? People were finding kill confirms into Finishing Touch, to be fair to that nerf in particular among his other ones. Now they have to work a bit harder for those to even have a chance of working.

My apologies; I was simply working off of the material in this thread.

As for Finishing Touch, I'd read quite a few impressions that FT came out slow enough to be highly situational. I suppose general opinion on it has changed.

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My apologies; I was simply working off of the material in this thread.

As for Finishing Touch, I'd read quite a few impressions that FT came out slow enough to be highly situational. I suppose general opinion on it has changed.

I thought the problem with Finishing Touch was that it ruins team matches.

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I'm glad Charizard is getting better, but I feel he still needs some work. I'm considering playing Mewtwo now though because of all the buffs he's been getting.

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I agree with many people stating thoughts here.

This balance patch became a 'nerf patch'. Even my beloved Samus's Dash Attack feels worse now. They can fix the hitbox but they reduced hitstun, impact along with KGB change. It doesn't kill anymore. My Samus is racking 150%+ and I still don't have a kill throw. A fast faller when she was fine getting out of Throw combo's and other such. Samus... gameplay wise... didn't change. She can't move up from that bot tier.

I think the Sheik nerfs were unnecessary. Hard character is hard to kill with. Why nerf that. Man, ZeRo matches are gonna be a struggle.

Some things with Corrin I get, but the speed nerf... for what? To make it hard to follow up from D.Fang?
Nerfing Bayo in the wrong place. The Side Special is fine. How about making the Counter window tighter so it'snot spammy. She got a slap on the wrist. Corrin got a beating.

Edited by Great Geargia Gateway

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Samus... gameplay wise... didn't change.

Samus got quite a few buffs, what are you talking about?

Even the Dash Attack is better since you can use it for combos now.

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Current change list.

Bayonetta

Witch Time:
Total Frames: 44 -> 49
Witch Time effects last shorter amount of time
Witch Time Duration penalty per use: 50F/50F -> 75F/50F (after 100 frames, it recovers 6 frames of length)
Heelslide (Button Held Total Frames: 72F -> 77F

Bowser

Air Speed: 0.98 -> 1
Weight: 128 -> 130

Charizard

Air Speed 0.87 -> 0.92
Weight 115 -> 116
Nair:
Landing Lag: 22F -> 20F
Damage: 10/7/7/7 -> 12/9/9/9
KBG: 90 -> 78
Fair:
Landing Lag: 31 -> 22
Damage: 11/12 -> 12/13
Bair:
Landing Lag: 33F -> 24F
Damage: 15/13/10/10 -> 16/14/11/11
Sweetspot Size: 4.5-> 5
Uair Landing Lag: 22F -> 20F
Dair Landing Lag: 35F -> 33F
Flare Blitz:
Explosion KBG: 78 -> 84
Second Hitbox: New hitbox added, extending the move's reach to behind Charizard

Cloud

Uair Early/Late Damage: 13/9.5 -> 12/8.5
Forward Smash Third Hit KBG: 119 -> 115
Down Smash Second Hit KBG: 96 -> 94
Limit Cross Slash KGB: 155 -> 153
Finishing Touch (Air):
Normal Hit KBG: 417 -> 359
Late Hit KBG: 390 -> 335
Windbox KBG: 100 -> 86
Limit Charge Total Charge Time: Increased by 0.42 seconds
Front/Back Roll Intangibility: 4-17F -> 4-15F

Corrin

Nair Early/Late Damage: 8/6.5 -> 7/5,5
Fair Damage: 8.5 -> 7.5
Uair Damage: 10 -> 9
Dragon Fang Shot Fully Charged Damage: 13 -> 11
Counter Surge KB: Reduced
Walk Speed: Reduced
Run Speed: Reduced
Front/Back Roll:
Total Frames: 29F -> 30F
Intangibility: 4-16F -> 4-14F

Duck Hunt

Fsmash Final Hit KBG: 123 -> 125
Dsmash Final Hit KBG: 153 -> 155
Usmash Final Hit KBG: 110 -> 112

Ganondorf

Jab:
Startup Sweetspot/Sourspot: 8F/7F -> 7F/6F
Damage: 7/10/4 -> 8/10/6
Dash Attack Total Frames: 41F -> 37F
Wizard's Foot Ground Damage: 12/12/10 -> 14/12/12

Greninja

Dash Attack:
Hitbox Startup: 9F -> 7F
Total Duration: 32F -> 30F
Standing Grab Startup: 14F -> 11F
Fair Landing Lag: 18F -> 15F
Bair Landing Lag: 16F -> 13F
Bonk: Headbonk angle changed (survival-ability improved)

Kirby

Dsmash Early Hit KBG: 109 -> 110
Fsmash:
Early Hit KBG: 100 -> 102
Late Hit KBG: 67 -> 69
Usmash:
Early Hit KBG: 103/103/97 -> 104/104/99
Normal Hit KBG 97 -> 98
Late Hit KBG: 51 -> 52
Hammer Flip:
Uncharged Ground KBG: 76 -> 78
Full Charged Ground KBG: 76 -> 78
Uncharged Air KBG: 76 -> 78
Full Charged Air KBG: 76 -> 78
Hammer Bash (Custom 1):
Air Second Hit Hammer Head KBG: 76 -> 78
Air Second Hit Hammer Handle KBG: 76 -> 78
Ground Hammer Head KBG: 76 -> 78
Ground Hammer Handle KBG: 76 -> 78
Giant Hammer (Custom 2):
Uncharged Air KBG: 76 -> 78
Full Charged Air KBG: 76 -> 78
Uncharged Ground KBG: 76 -> 78
Full Charged Ground KBG: 76 -> 78

Link

Dsmash Second Hit KBG: 57 -> 63
Dash Attack:
14/13/12 Damage KBG: 78/78/72 -> 85/85/77
14/13/12 Damage Angles: 45/60/70 -> 45/50/55

Metaknight

Uair:
Damage: 5 -> 4
Angle: 78 -> 69
SDI Multiplier: 1.0 -> 1.5
Fair Landing Lag: 20F -> 16F

Mewtwo

Weight: 72 -> 74
Run Speed: Increased (Around Sheik's speed)
Upsmash Total Duration: 73F -> 68F
Nair Multihit Hitbox Size: 2.3 -> 3.0

Pac-Man

Bair KBG: 98 -> 100
Fsmash First Hit/Second Hit KBG: 97/100 -> 99/102
Usmash Second Hit Early/Late KBG: 95/90 -> 97/92
Dsmash Early/Late KBG: 84/90 -> 86/92

Palutena

Rapid Jab Finisher Damage: 3 -> 3.5
Nair Multihit/Final Damage: 1.5/4 -> 1.7/5
Fair:
Damage: 8 -> 9
KBG: 100 -> 92
BKB: 30 -> 31

Peach

Uair: Hitbox altered (infinite removed)

Robin

Jab:
First Hit BKB: 35 -> 40
Second Hit BKB: 30/35 -> 45
Nosferatu/Distant Nosferatu Startup: 16F -> 15F

Samus

Ftilt Sourspot/Sweetspot Down Angle/Sweetspot No Angle/Sweetspot Up Angle Damage: 6/7/8/9 -> 8/9/10/11
Dash Attack Total Frames: 37F -> 33F
Fsmash: Hitbox altered, no longer whiffs up close
Dsmash Total Frames: 51F -> 44F
Nair Front/Back Weak/Back Strong Damage: 8/6/7 -> 10/8/9
Standing Grab Total Frames: 75F -> 69F
Dash Grab Total Frames: 73F -> 67F
Pivot Grab Total Frames: 89F -> 83F

Sheik

Dsmash KBG: 155 -> 165
Fair:
Defensive Hitbox Z Postion: 3.5 -> 2.5
Hitbox Z Position: 3.5 -> 2.5
Fthrow:
Angle: 70 -> 72
KBG: 65 -> 79
Dthrow:
Angle: 80 -> 77
KBG: 75 -> 90
Needle: Range Decreased
Weight: 84 -> 81

Zelda

Ftilt:
Hitbox Startup: 12F -> 10F
Total Frames: 39F -> 37F
Hitbox Z Position: 3 -> 3.5
Jab:
First & Second Hit Damage: 2.5 -> 3
Final Hit Damage: 3 -> 5
Final Hit KBG: 130 -> 95
Final Hit BKB: 35 -> 40
Dsmash Total Frames: 40 -> 37
Nair:
Multihit damage 2/1 -> 2.5/1.5
5th Hit Damage: 3 -> 5
Uair:
Damage: 15 -> 17
KBG: 90 -> 84
Hitbox Size: 7 -> 8
All Grabs: Increased horizontal range
Nayru's Love Intangibility: 5-12F -> 5-15F

Zero Suit Samus

Uair:
Damage: 8 -> 6.5
KBG: 110 -> 125
Nair:
Damage: 10 -> 8
KBG: 80 -> 96
KB: 40 -> 38
Hitbox Size: Altered (approximately 1 unit less for all changes)
Bthrow:
Damage: 4 -> 6
KBG: 25 -> 60
KB: 70 -> 72
Dthrow:
Damage: 5 -> 3
KBG: 25 -> 60
KB: 100 -> 90
Plasma Whip:
First Hit KB: 80 -> 100
Multihit:
Damage: .8 -> 1.2
KBG: 90 -> 70
Hitbox Sizes: Altered (exact values unknown)
Final Hit:
Damage: 6 -> 7.5
Hitbox Size: Altered (exact values unknown)
Normal/Dash/Pivot Grab Last Active Frame: 29F -> 25F

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I agree with many people stating thoughts here.

This balance patch became a 'nerf patch'. Even my beloved Samus's Dash Attack feels worse now. They can fix the hitbox but they reduced hitstun, impact along with KGB change. It doesn't kill anymore. My Samus is racking 150%+ and I still don't have a kill throw. A fast faller when she was fine getting out of Throw combo's and other such. Samus... gameplay wise... didn't change. She can't move up from that bot tier.

Dude, you're insane.

General consensus is that Samus is moving up quite a few spots after this. One of the better buffs any Smash character has received so far in any patch.

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Samus got quite a few buffs, what are you talking about?

Even the Dash Attack is better since you can use it for combos now.

You could always use it for combo's. The dash just doesn't whiff as easy any more.

And most of her changes are more, fixes. Don't whiff smash, Dash Attack, inside Ftilt is safer, linking Jab. Things that should been there to begin with.

Again. Nothing gameplay wise changed. Her fundamentals didn't alter. Just more dash attacks.

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Tfw both of your mains get nerfed. (Corrin and Cloud)

Seriously tho I'm shocked that we are still getting patches. : O

Edited by scrub_Lord

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