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Jedi

[SSB4] Newer Patch discussion, Mewtwo wins a major tourney

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Jigglypuff is definitely the worst character now

Buffs to every other bottom tier cement it.

I wonder if we've gone full circle now and Rosalina is back as #1 now with the Sheik, ZSS, Cloud, Bayo and MK nerfs.

Also was the Sheik weight nerf ever confirmed?

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I did something like that in a match I played last night. I'm so glad Samus has something now. (though like Bowser, it'll probably end up getting nerfed slightly)

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MK getting nerfed sucks but MEWTWO BUFFS WOOOOOO

I can tell from your forum avatar that you're quite excited.

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How much do the nerfs change Corrin? I havent played in a month, but other than the counter being nerfed and not as good, how different is Corrin in playstyle?

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How much do the nerfs change Corrin? I havent played in a month, but other than the counter being nerfed and not as good, how different is Corrin in playstyle?

Pretty much plays the same, the speed nerf was only a 0.03 difference.

I haven't really felt the need to do anything different when I play as them.

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Pretty much plays the same, the speed nerf was only a 0.03 difference.

I haven't really felt the need to do anything different when I play as them.

Yes. Nothing really changed to much, but lessen the ability to follow up on certain moves, like a paralyzer. But the changes do effect some things like combo's now and makes the other FE characters a reason to be used instead of this all round dragon boi.

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Us on Serenes will see some of the patches first hand in my newest tourney, if you'd like to tune in http://serenesforest.net/forums/index.php?showtopic=61923

One match is up so far.

ALSO more patch note confirmations, just gonna relist what we know and new stuff

Bayonetta

Dair Duration: 42F -> 47F
Witch Twist (Ground)
First Hit Damage: 4/4/3/3 -> 3/3/2/2
Multihit (Hits 2-4) Damage: .3 -> .2
Witch Time:
Total Duration: 44 -> 49
Witch Time Effects: Lasts shorter amount of time
Witch Time Duration Penalty Per Use: 50F/50F -> 75F/50F (after 100 frames, it recovers 6 frames of length)
Heel Slide:
Startup: 2.1F -> 2.46F
Hit 2 Duration: 7F -> 8F
Button Held Total Duration: 72F -> 77F
Fsmash:
All Hits KBG: 105 -> 102
All Hits BKB: 25 -> 26
Usmash:
Early Hit KBG: 92 -> 90
Normal Hit KBG: 92 -> 90
Late Hit KBG: 92 -> 90

Bowser

Air Speed: 0.98 -> 1
Weight: 128 -> 130
Item Toss Strength: 1.31432 -> 1.33432

Charizard

Air Speed 0.87 -> 0.92

Weight 115 -> 116
Nair:
Landing Lag: 22F -> 20F
Damage: 10/7/7/7 -> 12/9/9/9
KBG: 90 -> 78
Fair:
Landing Lag: 31F -> 22F
Damage: 11/12 -> 12/13
Bair:
Landing Lag: 33F -> 24F
Damage: 15/13/10/10 -> 16/14/11/11
Sweetspot Size: 4.5-> 5
Uair Landing Lag: 22F -> 20F
Dair Landing Lag: 35F -> 33F
Flare Blitz:
Explosion KBG: 78 -> 84
Second Hitbox: New hitbox added, extending the move's reach to the base of his tail
Item Toss Strength: 1.198 -> 1.208

Cloud

Uair Early/Late Damage: 13/9.5 -> 12/8.5
Forward Smash Third Hit KBG: 119 -> 115
Down Smash Second Hit KBG: 96 -> 94
Limit Cross Slash KGB: 155 -> 153
Finishing Touch (Air):
Normal Hit KBG: 417 -> 359
Late Hit KBG: 390 -> 335
Windbox KBG: 100 -> 86
Limit Charge Total Charge Time: 362F -> 404F
Front/Back Roll Intangibility: 4-17F -> 4-15F

Corrin

Uair:
Damage: 10 -> 9
KBG: 94 -> 99
Nair Early/Late Damage: 8/6.5 -> 7/5,5
Fair Damage: 8.5 -> 7.5
Dragon Fang Shot:
Fully Charged Damage: 13 -> 11
Uncharged Damage: 11 -> 9
Non-Fully Charged Damage: 4-10 -> 4-8
Counter Surge:
Damage Multiplier: x1.3 -> x1.2
Counter Active Frames: 7-29F -> 7-24F
Bugfix: Damage scales properly instead of being limited to the minimum 8% when slowed down.
Walk Speed: 1.2 -> 1.15
Run Speed: 1.5 -> 1.45
Air Speed: 1 -> .97
Front/Back Roll:
Total Frames: 29F -> 30F
Intangibility: 4-16F -> 4-14F
Item Toss Strenght: 1.028 -> 1.026

Duck Hunt

Fsmash Final Hit KBG: 123 -> 125
Dsmash Final Hit KBG: 153 -> 155
Usmash Final Hit KBG: 110 -> 112

Ganondorf

Jab:
Startup Sweetspot/Sourspot: 8F/7F -> 7F/6F
Damage: 7/10/4 -> 8/10/6
Hitbox X Position: 12/18/7 -> 11/19/7
Total Duration: 34F -> 28F
Dash Attack Total Frames: 41F -> 37F
Wizard's Foot:
Ground Damage: 12/12/10 -> 14/12/12
Hitbox Z Position: -1/-3/-4 -> 0/-3/6
Wizard's Dropkick (Custom 1):
Damage: 10/10/9 -> 12/12/11
Hitbox Z Position: 1/-1/6 -> 0/-1/8
Wizard's Assault (Custom 2):
Damage: 9/9/7 -> 11/11/9
Hitbox Z Position: -1/-3/4 -> 0/-3/6
Flame Choke:
Air Grabbox X Position: 5.5 -> 7.5
Ground Grabbox X Position: 5.2 -> 7.2
Flame Wave (Custom 1):
Air Grabbox X Position: 6 -> 8
Ground Grabbox X Position: 5.2 -> 7.2

Greninja

Dash Attack:
Hitbox: 9-12F -> 7-10F
Total Duration: 32F -> 30F
Standing Grab Startup: 14F -> 11F
Fair Landing Lag: 18F -> 15F
Bair Landing Lag: 16F -> 13F
Bonk: Headbonk angle changed (survival-ability improved)

Kirby

Dsmash Early Hit KBG: 109 -> 110
Fsmash:
Early Hit KBG: 100 -> 102
Late Hit KBG: 67 -> 69
Usmash:
Early Hit KBG: 103/103/97 -> 104/104/99
Normal Hit KBG 97 -> 98
Late Hit KBG: 51 -> 52
Hammer Flip:
Uncharged Ground KBG: 76 -> 78
Full Charged Ground KBG: 76 -> 78
Uncharged Air KBG: 76 -> 78
Full Charged Air KBG: 76 -> 78
Hammer Bash (Custom 1):
Air Second Hit Hammer Head KBG: 76 -> 78
Air Second Hit Hammer Handle KBG: 76 -> 78
Ground Hammer Head KBG: 76 -> 78
Ground Hammer Handle KBG: 76 -> 78
Giant Hammer (Custom 2):
Uncharged Air KBG: 76 -> 78
Full Charged Air KBG: 76 -> 78
Uncharged Ground KBG: 76 -> 78
Full Charged Ground KBG: 76 -> 78

Link

Dsmash Second Hit KBG: 57 -> 63
Dash Attack:
14/13/12 Damage KBG: 78/78/72 -> 85/85/77
14/13/12 Damage Angles: 45/60/70 -> 45/50/55

Metaknight

Uair:
Damage: 5 -> 4
Angle: 78/78/60 -> 69/69/52
SDI Multiplier: 1.0 -> 1.5
Fair Landing Lag: 20F -> 16F

Mewtwo

Weight: 72 -> 74
Run Speed: 1.9 -> 2.05
Usmash Total Duration: 73F -> 68F
Nair Multihit Hitbox Size: 2.3 -> 3.0

Pac-Man

Bair KBG: 98 -> 100
Fsmash First Hit/Second Hit KBG: 97/100 -> 99/102
Usmash Second Hit Early/Late KBG: 95/90 -> 97/92
Dsmash Early/Late KBG: 84/90 -> 86/92

Palutena

Rapid Jab Finisher Damage: 3 -> 3.5
Nair Multihit/Final Damage: 1.5/4 -> 1.7/5
Fair:
Damage: 8 -> 9
KBG: 100 -> 92
BKB: 30 -> 31

Peach

Uair First Hit (Hitbox 2) Ground/Air Value: 3 -> 2 (No longer hits all grounded opponents, reducing the amount of characters that the infinite can be performed on)

Pikachu

Quick Attack Cancel: Removed on Umbra Clock Tower (Normal & Omega)

Robin

Jab:
First Hit BKB: 35/35/35 -> 40/40/40
Second Hit BKB: 30/30/35 -> 45/45/45
Nosferatu:
Standard Nosferatu:
Startup: 16F -> 15F
Set Frame Duration (Starting at Frame 21): 1F -> 2F (Frames when the move actually connects are changed as a result)
Distant Nosferatu Set Frame Duration: 1F -> 2F (Frames when the move actually connects are changed as a result)

Samus

Homing Missile Startup: 20F -> 18F
Super Missile:
Startup: 20F -> 18F
Frames 3-23: Frame Duration of .9 added (Decreases startup by approximately 2 frames)
Frames 23-43: Frame Duration of 1.1 added (Increases duration of shooting animation by 2 frames, thus not changing the duration of the move as a whole)
Charge Shot:
Uncharged Startup: 16F -> 15F
Fully Charged Startup: 16F -> 15F
Frames 10-20: Frame Duration of .8 added (Decreases startup by approximately 2 frames)
Frames 20-40: Frame Duration of 1.1 added (Increases duration of shooting animation by approximately 2 frames, thus not changing the duration of the move as a whole)
Ftilt:
Down Angle:
Damage: 6/7/8/9 -> 8/9/10/11
BKB: 10/10/30/30 -> 20/20/30/30
Normal Angle:
Damage: 5/6/7/8 -> 7/8/9/10
BKB: 10/10/30/30 -> 20/20/30/30
Up Angle:
Damage: 6/7/8/9 -> 8/9/10/11
BKB: 10/10/30/30 -> 20/20/30/30
Nair:
Hit 1 Damage: 8/8 -> 10/10
Hit 2 (Normal) Damage: 7/7 -> 9/9
Hit 2 (Late):
Damage: 6/6 -> 8/8
Size: 3.3/3.3 -> 3.6/3.6
Z Position: 5.3/0 -> 5.4/0
Fair:
First Hit:
Hitbox 1:
Angle: 295 -> 60
WBKB: 3 -> 15
Hitbox 2:
WBKB: 3 -> 15
Size: 6 -> 4
X/Z Position: 0/9 -> 2/10.7
Hitbox 3 (Entirely New Hitbox):
Damage: N/A -> 3
Angle: N/A -> 80
BKG: N/A -> 100
WBKB: N/A -> 15
Size: N/A -> 4
X/Y/Z Position: N/A -> (-2, -.6, 7.2)
Stretch X/Y/Z Position: N/A -> (-2, -.6, 7.2)
Hits 2-4:
Hitbox 1:
Angle: 20 -> 18
WBKB: 25 -> 30
Bomb Asynchronous Timer: 47 -> 45 (Approximately 2 less frames of endlag)
Dash Attack:
Early Hit (Entirely New Hitbox):
Hitbox: N/A -> 8F -> 10F
Damage: N/A -> 7
Angle: N/A -> 75
BKG: N/A -> 60
BKB: N/A -> 80
Size: N/A -> 4.5
Total Frames: 37F -> 33F
Shield Damage: 2 -> 1
Dsmash Total Frames: 51F -> 44F
Standing Grab Total Frames: 75F -> 69F
Dash Grab Total Frames: 73F -> 67F
Pivot Grab Total Frames: 89F -> 83F
Air Speed: .95 -> 1.03
Gravity: .75 -> .77
Fall Speed: 1.25 -> 1.3
Fastfall Speed: 2 -> 2.08

Sheik

Dsmash KBG: 155 -> 165
Fair:
Defensive Hitbox Z Postion: 3.5 -> 2.5
Hitbox Z Position: 3.5 -> 2.5
Fthrow:
Angle: 70 -> 72
KBG: 65 -> 79
Dthrow:
Angle: 80 -> 77
KBG: 75 -> 90
Needle: Range Decreased (range reduced to ~80% of what it was previously)
Weight: 84 -> 81
Item Toss Strength: .896 -> .866

Zelda

Ftilt:
Hitbox Startup: 12F -> 10F
Total Frames: 39F -> 37F
Hitbox Z Position: 3 -> 3.5
Jab:
First & Second Hit Damage: 2.5 -> 3
Final Hit Damage: 3 -> 5
Final Hit KBG: 130 -> 95
Final Hit BKB: 35 -> 40
Dsmash Total Frames: 40 -> 37
Nair:
Multihit damage 2/1 -> 2.5/1.5
5th Hit Damage: 3 -> 5
5th Hit KBG 160/160/140/140 -> 130/130/110/110
Uair:
Damage: 15 -> 17
KBG: 90 -> 84
Hitbox Size: 7 -> 8
All Grabs: Increased horizontal range
Nayru's Love Intangibility: 5-12F -> 5-15F

Zero Suit Samus

Uair:
Damage: 8 -> 6.5
KBG: 110 -> 125
Nair:
Damage: 10 -> 8
KBG: 80 -> 96
KB: 40 -> 38
Normal Hit:
Hitbox 1:
Size: 6 -> 5.7
Stretch X Position: 11 -> 10
Hitbox 2 Stretch X/Y Position: 20/7.5 -> 19/7
Late Hit:
Hitbox 1:
Size: 6 -> 5.6
Stretch X/Y Position: 9/14.6 -> 6.6/13.8
Hitbox 2 Stretch X/Y Position: 16/17 -> 15/16.5
Bthrow:
Damage: 4 -> 6
KBG: 25 -> 45
KB: 70 -> 72
Dthrow:
Second Hit Damage: 5 -> 3
KBG: 25 -> 60
KB: 100 -> 90
Plasma Whip:
First Hit KB: 80 -> 100
Multihit:
Hit 1:
Damage: .8 -> 1.2
KBG: 90 -> 70
Stretch Position: N/A -> (17,8,0)
Hit 2:
Damage: .8 -> 1.2
KBG: 90 -> 65
Stretch Position: N/A -> (21,8,0)
Hit 3:
Damage: .8 -> 1.2
KBG: 90 -> 65
Stretch Position: N/A -> (25,8,0)
Hit 4:
Damage: .8 -> 1.2
KBG: 90 -> 65
Stretch Position: N/A -> (28,8,0)
Final Hit:
Damage: 6 -> 7.5
Stretch Position: N/A -> (35, 8.5, 0)
Normal/Dash/Pivot Grab Last Active Frame: 29F -> 25F
Total Duration: 58F -> 55F

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And Robin gets... tweaked, I guess? Get back to me when they increased his movement speed/grab range.

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You can't be top tier forever. I'm sure Sheik is still viable, just not at the level where she's the center of the metagame.

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She has sooo much trouble killing now, you pretty much have to get a Nair/Needles > Bouncing Fish, Bouncing Fish near the blast zone, or Usmash read to kill before fair/ftilt do.

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Seriously, this patch is the best thing that's happened to competitive smash in a while. The top tiers who were defining tourneys everywhere got toned down while the clearly underpowered ones got some buffs.

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Seriously, this patch is the best thing that's happened to competitive smash in a while. The top tiers who were defining tourneys everywhere got toned down while the clearly underpowered ones got some buffs.

Rosalina, Sonic, Mario and Pikachu were untouched. Bayonetta didn't get too badly touched. Etc

Cloud is still gonna do really well despite his nerfs, so basically the only one not going to be doing as well is Sheik, Metaknight players have already found workarounds for their nerfs, I doubt the meta is going to change all that significantly, despite the fact that this is the most balanced smash, its still going to be a bit of a top 15 with some others in results

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Rosalina, Sonic, Mario and Pikachu were untouched. Bayonetta didn't get too badly touched. Etc

Cloud is still gonna do really well despite his nerfs, so basically the only one not going to be doing as well is Sheik, Metaknight players have already found workarounds for their nerfs, I doubt the meta is going to change all that significantly, despite the fact that this is the most balanced smash, its still going to be a bit of a top 15 with some others in results

Basically, this. The one thing the update really did was dismantle Shiek, thereby helping along Bayo's superiority.

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Rosalina, Sonic, Mario and Pikachu were untouched.

That said, with the exception of Rosa maybe, Shiek and Zero Suit Samus were firmly top tier characters while I think those characters listed are a bit more hard to define their exact placement. One could argue that Ryu or Fox are better than any of those characters as well, so I think its better that we have a vague notion of who is top tier now.

Well, except for the fact that Bayonetta is clearly top tier, and I do think Shiek's nerfs were overkill.

Edited by Knight

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That said, with the exception of Rosa maybe, Shiek and Zero Suit Samus were firmly top tier characters while I think those characters listed are a bit more hard to define their exact placement. One could argue that Ryu or Fox are better than any of those characters as well, so I think its better that we have a vague notion of who is top tier now.

Well, except for the fact that Bayonetta is clearly top tier, and I do think Shiek's nerfs were overkill.

Ryu's main problem is that barely anyone plays him, he'd arguably be the best if more people played him, Fox also has a hard time getting kills, he has to fish for some, Sonic, Mario and Pikachu can at least get some solid kill comfirms.

Like Fox is good, but I don't think he's better than those 3, we'll see, people are already finding some anti Bayonetta tactics, but rip Sheik players.

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Ryu's main problem is that barely anyone plays him, he'd arguably be the best if more people played him

Ryu can't be the best because Bayonetta exists.

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Ryu can't be the best because Bayonetta exists.

Bayonetta's neutral game is too meh to be top tier though. She can be number 2, but she isn't number 1 in my eyes.

Edited by Jedi

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