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Leif

A Sardonic Look at Fire Emblem Fates

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Aren't Azura and Marx the same if you view them like that? Marx is mostly an obstinate boob to add more drama to the game just like Azura is forced to be tight-lipped to allow Revelation to exist. But when you take that all away, what is left? That's two thirds of the story effectively ruined by the writers trying to shoehorn a third route in there. The only reason to like either of those characters (in my opinion) is via their supports and ignore everything else.

Azura (and possibly Mikoto and Arete) are a scaled up version of what happened to Xander. Xander being better written lets Conquest (and maybe Birthright) to have a better individual plot. Azura being better written would result in Conquest and Birthright not existing.

Which is sad, because all you had to do is let Azura die in both Conquest and Birthright. Not only would have made people want to save Azura in the 3rd route , but it'd actually preserve her character integrity. Xander is a bit harder to excuse, but again, you can be of the mind that he was torn between duty for his kingdom and embellishing to his personal desires. Heck, you have some supports like Elise x Arthur even addressing this fact.

Well, she does. She dies at the very end.

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I mean Warcraft III Thrall, not Metzen's Self Insert and Waifu from WoW :p.

I see what you mean, it is hard to separate that when it is such a large part of the story. I personally like Xander for what he was supposed to be, but that forces me to have to leave a large chunk of the story behind for me to do that. It was out of character for what he was originally supposed to be, but at the same time it shows that side of him so much its hard to tell if that was the way he was always meant to be written, or if it was the writer going back on what they did before. Doesnt help that IS practically had two different sets of writers doing supports and the main story, so it caused a huge problem in the characters. Xander in his supports seems like an honorable respectable guy, but in the story he is really a self righteous hypocrite.

I guess that's where we differ, i'm unable to ignore the shitty side of his character when it's such a huge part of his onscreen moments and story involvement.

In fact, when i read his supports where he's actually a decent character i may like him at the moment, but i can't help but compare that to his story self, which then taints his supports. His character is just a lost cause for me unfortunately.

It's nice that you can look at it the way you do though, i guess i'm just not as forgiving as others. Someone else said they can forgive Kaze's action in Conquest because the game just wants to give you a ninja, but for me that ruined his character. If the writers wanted me to like him then they should have put in more effort to give him a proper reason to join you.

Edited by BruceLee

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Azura dies in the end. A hit classic. I'd read it. I really want to like Azura, but I just don't see how they could have left her alive that long not saying anything. I'd have loved it if Corrin was the one to seal the deal for her death in Conquest and Birthright. It'd make it better, as she could have been like "No Corrin! Don't do this! " And Corrin yells back that (s)he's made up her/his mind, and then just cleaves her in two. Might seem out of character? Well... I don't think Corrin should be above killing people and have magical "I deplete your hp to 0 but don't kill you powers."

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Azura (and possibly Mikoto and Arete) are a scaled up version of what happened to Xander. Xander being better written lets Conquest (and maybe Birthright) to have a better individual plot. Azura being better written would result in Conquest and Birthright not existing.

I say Garon being written better would make Conquest have a better plot (Birthright is mostly fine as is, IMO). What's the key issue we have with Xander? That he obstinately refuses to believe his obviously evil daddy is evil. So if his daddy's not one-dimensionally evil, if he has actually good goals that Xander, the Nohrian siblings, Corrin and Azura can believe in, they have an actual reason to follow him.

But if Garon weren't completely evil, then Hoshido wouldn't be completely in the right, and we can't have that.

It's not always easy to separate the character from the writing though. When a character is mostly consistent (and likable) it's easy to write off random stupidity as incompetent writing but what about when a character is largely inconsistent (Xander loving his family and peace but supporting his warmongering dad and threatening to kill Corrin) or drastically affects the story in a negative way (Azura's ooc inaction in Conquest and Birthright that allowed those routes to exist)? I can handwave Kaze joining you in Nohr as being "The writers wanted to give you a loyal ninja retainer but didn't think about the story implications" but I absolutely loathe the former two for their story involvement (support convos paint a different picture).

Her inaction in Birthright is forgivable IMO, since they never set foot in Valla and there's never really any time for her to go "hey, now that we have a moment, can we all jump into the Bottomless Canyon? There's something I need to tell you". They directly leave to rescue the royal brothers, then they directly sneak into Nohr to assassinate Garon and don't stop, because Nohr's crushing their front lines and time is vital.

I still think the best way, if we had to have Revelation, would have been for there to be no curse at all, and for Azura to say she tried to warn people before, but got ridiculed and mocked. Since no one ever believed her, she just gave up. Or for no one to be aware of Valla's existence, Corrin and Azura just stumble across it by accident.

Edited by Abvora

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Azura (and possibly Mikoto and Arete) are a scaled up version of what happened to Xander. Xander being better written lets Conquest (and maybe Birthright) to have a better individual plot. Azura being better written would result in Conquest and Birthright not existing.

Well, she does. She dies at the very end.

Okay, I see your point. Azura is more integral to the routes existing, but I do feel that Marx is intentionally made a roadblock in ALL routes, so much that he's on a similar level of "contrived plot elements" as Azura.

I say Garon being written better would make Conquest have a better plot (Birthright is mostly fine as is, IMO). What's the key issue we have with Xander? That he obstinately refuses to believe his obviously evil daddy is evil. So if his daddy's not one-dimensionally evil, if he has actually good goals that Xander, the Nohrian siblings, Corrin and Azura can believe in, they have an actual reason to follow him.

But if Garon weren't completely evil, then Hoshido wouldn't be completely in the right, and we can't have that.

I could get behind Marx's character if Garon was shown to be worthy of his respect and not "Maybe I'll eat a puppy for dinner." It's been mentioned before but if Nohr had a reason for invading Hoshido, such as a need for resources, Marx could be seen as a well intentioned extremist.

Edited by NekoKnight

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I say Garon being written better would make Conquest have a better plot (Birthright is mostly fine as is, IMO). What's the key issue we have with Xander? That he obstinately refuses to believe his obviously evil daddy is evil. So if his daddy's not one-dimensionally evil, if he has actually good goals that Xander, the Nohrian siblings, Corrin and Azura can believe in, they have an actual reason to follow him.

But if Garon weren't completely evil, then Hoshido wouldn't be completely in the right, and we can't have that.

This. Yes. This. Garon not being evil would have definitely helped there.

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I may not be in touch with WoW anymore, but last I heard, all of Knaak's novels were considered shit, and when another author killed off his original character, people were overjoyed.

No more raptor armies.

Yeah, it's strange that she doesn't even hint at her knowing something and letting everyone know something is wrong, but again, we couldn't have had three routes that way.

And yes, I agree with that last bit as well.

I actually enjoyed his books, and think he handled character development better than the current writers for WoW. Maybe I have a bit of bias from his previous Dragonlance days when writing Legend of Huma, but I think he is an underrated writer that gets a lot of flack from fanboys for the most part. The raptor part everyone makes fun of was such a small part of the book that I actually forgot about it. That and the two original characters were actually given to him to use as the main characters in his books. They werent exactly creations of his own, just templates they gave him to fill out as he saw fit and use.

I agree with Garon either not being completely evil, or being more along the lines of a Lawful Evil really would of helped. There are such things as evil people that dont go around kicking puppies and pushing over old ladies. Garon could of made a great sympathetic bad guy, that while you know what he is doing is evil, you cant help but to like the guy. I think it would of been great writing to see Garon actually treat Corrin as his own child. Make the player like Garon and see him as an interesting character and person. Make it a complicated situation where the player knows Garon needs to be stopped, but at the same time you dont want to because you know that he isnt entirely an evil person.

Edited by Tolvir

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This is kinda cringeworthy,but interesting nonetheless.

How so? Is it my analysis? :(

Also, if you guys want to visit my castle, my address is in the signature! You'll probably see my Digital Devil Saga themed one. xD

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How so? Is it my analysis? :(

Also, if you guys want to visit my castle, my address is in the signature! You'll probably see my Digital Devil Saga themed one. xD

DDS themed castle!? I'm going to it now.

EDIT: I went to your castle and left a present for you. I hope that you don't mind if I don't try to fight this love I have for DDS.

Edited by SaiSymbolic

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7000+ words later, my analysis for the three Fire Emblem Fates campaigns is done!

Sorry I didn't get Revelation's done sooner, life got in the way. At least my analysis has some comedic clips from youtube to highlight how silly all the melodrama was in the story. -_-

There wasn't much to talk about since Revelation's plot is surprisingly more barebones than Birthright's!

The "meat" of Revelation's plot was, strangely, in Hidden Truths, which I'll write about later.

Edited by Leif

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7000+ words later, my analysis for the three Fire Emblem Fates campaigns is done!

Sorry I didn't get Revelation's done sooner, life got in the way. At least my analysis has some comedic clips from youtube to highlight how silly all the melodrama was in the story. -_-

There wasn't much to talk about since Revelation's plot is surprisingly more barebones than Birthright's!

The "meat" of Revelation's plot was, strangely, in Hidden Truths, which I'll write about later.

The game was pretty barren. It started pretty strong, and then fell flat once the two groups join together. I felt nothing at all with Mikoto being back other than a "Oh cool, she is back" and then when it was revealed that I had to fight her and she died again I was left wondering what the point of all that was. Why destroy the meaning behind that death just to bring her back for a chapter and kill her again? Sumeragi was even worst because I never even knew the guy outside his name, and what the back of his armor looked like. For all I knew his face looked like a mix of Nicholas Cage and Jet Li and I wouldnt of known any better for the entirety of Conquest, Birthright, and the first 25 chapters of Revelation. With Arete I hated her more than feel bad for anything because the only thing I knew of her is that she is currently trying to melt my face off with magical flames.

Overall I think the biggest problem was who they hired to help write. Kibayashi, while not a bad writer, is a Shonen writer. Shonen are known for their OP main character, little to no world building, and one diminsional villians. Just look at two of the most well known Shonen anime, Fairy Tail and One Piece. Both have little world building, with locations getting shown or getting a bit of lore only when its needed to advance the plot, a character that is special in some way whether through talent or bloodline, the main character gets all the praise by everyone around him and is loved everywhere, and villians with very one diminsional goals. Now if I told you all of those things without saying it was attached to the shonen style, you would likely think I just explained Fates plot, but that is the problem. Fates was written like a Shonen anime, and it doesnt work. So as long as Kibayashi is on board with writing for FE, FE will continue being written like a Shonen.

Edited by Tolvir

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The game was pretty barren. It started pretty strong, and then fell flat once the two groups join together. I felt nothing at all with Mikoto being back other than a "Oh cool, she is back" and then when it was revealed that I had to fight her and she died again I was left wondering what the point of all that was. Why destroy the meaning behind that death just to bring her back for a chapter and kill her again? Sumeragi was even worst because I never even knew the guy outside his name, and what the back of his armor looked like. For all I knew his face looked like a mix of Nicholas Cage and Jet Li and I wouldnt of known any better for the entirety of Conquest, Birthright, and the first 25 chapters of Revelation. With Arete I hated her more than feel bad for anything because the only thing I knew of her is that she is currently trying to melt my face off with magical flames.

Overall I think the biggest problem was who they hired to help write. Kibayashi, while not a bad writer, is a Shonen writer. Shonen are known for their OP main character, little to no world building, and one diminsional villians. Just look at two of the most well known Shonen anime, Fairy Tail and One Piece. Both have little world building, with locations getting shown or getting a bit of lore only when its needed to advance the plot, a character that is special in some way whether through talent or bloodline, the main character gets all the praise by everyone around him and is loved everywhere, and villians with very one diminsional goals. Now if I told you all of those things without saying it was attached to the shonen style, you would likely think I just explained Fates plot, but that is the problem. Fates was written like a Shonen anime, and it doesnt work. So as long as Kibayashi is on board with writing for FE, FE will continue being written like a Shonen.

AMAZING RESPONSE! :D

I never thought about that! I know little of Kiyabashi, other than the fact that he's a well known author. I don't read Shonen manga either (only know a few things about the genre), so that absolutely explains why Revelation was dull.

Edited by Leif

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AMAZING RESPONSE! :D

I never thought about that! I know little of Kiyabashi, other than the fact that he's a well known author. I don't read Shonen manga either (only know a few things about the genre), so that absolutely explains why Revelation was dull.

It really does explain everything, and its unfortunate. I originally thought that Fates problems came from it possibly being rushed along, but after reading about what exact type of manga Kibayashi writes, and looking at Fates as a Shonen as compared to the previous games, it all started to come together.

By the way, forgot to put this in my response earlier but I really enjoyed reading your point of view on everything. I like that you included both the things you enjoyed or thought was well done, and the things that were bad. Sure the things that were bad greatly outweighed the good in terms of story, but its nice to see a bit more of a neutral look at the story rather than pure hatred or complete praise for it all like many other analyzations have done. I look forward to what you have to say about Hidden Truths and Memories of Foam whenever that gets released.

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It really does explain everything, and its unfortunate. I originally thought that Fates problems came from it possibly being rushed along, but after reading about what exact type of manga Kibayashi writes, and looking at Fates as a Shonen as compared to the previous games, it all started to come together.

By the way, forgot to put this in my response earlier but I really enjoyed reading your point of view on everything. I like that you included both the things you enjoyed or thought was well done, and the things that were bad. Sure the things that were bad greatly outweighed the good in terms of story, but its nice to see a bit more of a neutral look at the story rather than pure hatred or complete praise for it all like many other analyzations have done. I look forward to what you have to say about Hidden Truths and Memories of Foam whenever that gets released.

Oh man, Memories of Foam will probably piss me off since it looks like a Future Past rip off.

Two Kanas? TWO YATOS!? ughhhhhhh.....

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Oh man, Memories of Foam will probably piss me off since it looks like a Future Past rip off.

Two Kanas? TWO YATOS!? ughhhhhhh.....

Lol, it does look very similar. Though Future Past was written way better than Awakening's main story, so maybe Memories of Foam will be a pleasant surprise. Though I really dont like Kana, and really dont like the idea of using the child units only so it will be hard for me to get over that.

Edited by Tolvir

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Oh man, Memories of Foam will probably piss me off since it looks like a Future Past rip off.

Two Kanas? TWO YATOS!? ughhhhhhh.....

... I'm scared of asking, but I'm sorry, what ? What are you talking about ?

Ah, so Future Past is annoying to you of too, good. One more point for you in my book, senpai.

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Overall I think the biggest problem was who they hired to help write. Kibayashi, while not a bad writer, is a Shonen writer. Shonen are known for their OP main character, little to no world building, and one diminsional villians. Just look at two of the most well known Shonen anime, Fairy Tail and One Piece. Both have little world building, with locations getting shown or getting a bit of lore only when its needed to advance the plot, a character that is special in some way whether through talent or bloodline, the main character gets all the praise by everyone around him and is loved everywhere, and villians with very one diminsional goals. Now if I told you all of those things without saying it was attached to the shonen style, you would likely think I just explained Fates plot, but that is the problem. Fates was written like a Shonen anime, and it doesnt work. So as long as Kibayashi is on board with writing for FE, FE will continue being written like a Shonen.

I really wish people would stop blaming Kibayashi for Fates' writing problems. You'd think that he single-handedly wrote the entire game going by the way some people bring him up, instead of writing an initial draft and not being involved in the process afterwards. We don't even know how much of his original draft made it into the game, if any, and IntSys's writing team deserves their fair share of blame (if not more, depending on how many of the not so great writing is changes they made).

Also, shounen's not a genre, it's a demographic with single defining trait of "work targeted towards males ages 8 to 18." While some shounen works have those problems (and Fairy Tail and One Piece certainly don't, speaking as someone who's read/watch both), trying to say that all shounen works are like that is just wrong.

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... I'm scared of asking, but I'm sorry, what ? What are you talking about ?

Ah, so Future Past is annoying to you of too, good. One more point for you in my book, senpai.

It's a bit of a spoiler, but I saw some art on the FE Wiki showing a male and female Kana holding a Grim and Blazing Yato respectively.

I really wish people would stop blaming Kibayashi for Fates' writing problems. You'd think that he single-handedly wrote the entire game going by the way some people bring him up, instead of writing an initial draft and not being involved in the process afterwards. We don't even know how much of his original draft made it into the game, if any, and IntSys's writing team deserves their fair share of blame (if not more, depending on how many of the not so great writing is changes they made).

Also, shounen's not a genre, it's a demographic with single defining trait of "work targeted towards males ages 8 to 18." While some shounen works have those problems (and Fairy Tail and One Piece certainly don't, speaking as someone who's read/watch both), trying to say that all shounen works are like that is just wrong.

He isn't entirely to blame, true. He DID come up with an amazing premise. I just don't think he is used to writing for a video game, which is way different than writing a novel.

I.S. does have a role in screwing up Fates's plot. Just look at the inclusion of the children.

However, you say that shounen isn't a genre, but is a demographic? Explain. If Shounen is targeted for males of 8-18 years, then wouldn't that just make it similar to our YA novels?

I know little of Japanese written works, so forgive my ignorance.

I do agree with Tolvir that Fates's fault is focusing too much on the characters and neglecting to develop the setting. For stories about wars, you NEED to know the histories AND political climates of the countries in conflict.

Edited by Leif

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Good analysis. One thing that really stood out to me was how inconsequential the game treats people joining Kamui. Many characters join him just because he seems 'trustworthy' even though Kamui's story should be impossible to believe. Apparently all you need to do is flash your 'protagonist' card and everyone will agree to follow you. The bigger issue, however, is how well your combined army of Nohrians and Hoshidans get along. There must be decades if not centuries of bad blood between the countries but very little conversation is devoted to it. The royal siblings agree to join you without too much trouble and then their subordinates join without complaint. I'd go as far to say that the issue is almost entirely side-stepped.

The plot itself just seems like an excuse to recruit (almost) all of the characters. The first half of the game is basically you wandering around place to place trying to get more clues about how to fight Anankos and each time you visit a place, the boss says "Sorry, I dunno, have you tried asking_________" While Conquest and Birthright were meandering at times, Revelation almost doesn't have a plot. Rather paradoxical that the chapter of the story that is intended to be the most important for understanding the greater plot is the lightest on details.

Edited by NekoKnight

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It really does explain everything, and its unfortunate. I originally thought that Fates problems came from it possibly being rushed along, but after reading about what exact type of manga Kibayashi writes, and looking at Fates as a Shonen as compared to the previous games, it all started to come together.

By the way, forgot to put this in my response earlier but I really enjoyed reading your point of view on everything. I like that you included both the things you enjoyed or thought was well done, and the things that were bad. Sure the things that were bad greatly outweighed the good in terms of story, but its nice to see a bit more of a neutral look at the story rather than pure hatred or complete praise for it all like many other analyzations have done. I look forward to what you have to say about Hidden Truths and Memories of Foam whenever that gets released.

Wow I understand at last why this game treats world building like the bubonic plague, say what want about past Fire Emblem games stories but at least they tried to world build. Fates writting feels like a different style of story content to past fire emblem games, Shonen style just does not mesh with the type of storytelling fire emblem employs which relies heavily on world building to give context to the context to the on going in the world. So I guess fates story was doomed the moment they hired Kibayashi.

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AMAZING RESPONSE! :D

I never thought about that! I know little of Kiyabashi, other than the fact that he's a well known author. I don't read Shonen manga either (only know a few things about the genre), so that absolutely explains why Revelation was dull.

That actually explains a lot of non-sense on the story. Like Fuuga "Fight me so I can see if you are worthy" and then you proceed to a mortal battle with "if you lose I will take the sword from you dead hands, otherwise, you beat me and spare me, you are the guy". That's is pretty common in Shonen.

Even the "Come back Corrin" moments felt like "Come back Sasuke" moments. "I will beat you and bring you back if I need to!"

Or "I wont kill you because you are a bad guy but not really evil and killing is wrong", then proceeds to kill hundreds of the bad guys henchmen.

Right, Corrin Chapter 14? "You are insane! Trading life for peace!"

Edited by Lanko

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I really wish people would stop blaming Kibayashi for Fates' writing problems. You'd think that he single-handedly wrote the entire game going by the way some people bring him up, instead of writing an initial draft and not being involved in the process afterwards. We don't even know how much of his original draft made it into the game, if any, and IntSys's writing team deserves their fair share of blame (if not more, depending on how many of the not so great writing is changes they made).

Also, shounen's not a genre, it's a demographic with single defining trait of "work targeted towards males ages 8 to 18." While some shounen works have those problems (and Fairy Tail and One Piece certainly don't, speaking as someone who's read/watch both), trying to say that all shounen works are like that is just wrong.

Take a look at his most popular piece of work, Kindaichi Case Files. It suffers from one of the same problems Fates have, no world building. It only brings up the lore or information on a new location when it can help drive the plot in a certain direction. I in no way said that Kibayashi is a bad writer. He isnt, but the problem is his writing style does not work for a video game, and definitely doesnt work for Fire Emblem. Its like me expecting Joss Whedon to go write the next Elder Scrolls game and be well put together. Joss Whedon may be an excellent script writer and director for movies, but the script for a video game is going to work differently. Now that doesnt excuse IS from any and all blame for the badly put together plot. They were the ones in charge of actually piecing it together, deciding what goes in, what doesnt, what changes, etc, and they did a terrible job with that.

I understand that Shounen is not a genre, but the tropes are still there with the majority of them. Its because of who they are trying to appeal to. Transformers never had complex writing and world building either. Same with GI Joe, Thundercats, He-Man, and any other american cartoon advertised to the same age group. I have watched Fairy Tail, and while I enjoy the show, it definitely has these problems. Natsu is the main character of the show, and beats everyone he goes up against. Even characters that the guild master, the person who is supposed to be more powerful, couldnt beat. Natsu is regarded as extremely powerful by anyone and everyone he comes across. I cant tell you a single thing about the world of Fairy Tail or its lore because the only time it is relevant is to advance the plot in certain directions. Seriously, can you tell me anything about neighboring kingdoms to Fiore? How about any sort of lore in regards to the land and its history? Now that isnt a bad thing, it works just fine for Fairy Tail, as it is mainly focused on the characters and their stories not the kingdoms, I actually enjoy that about the show, but it doesnt work for a video game, and especially Fire Emblem that thrives off of the player being invested in the characters, locations, and lore of the region.

Edited by Tolvir

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