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A Sardonic Look at Fire Emblem Fates

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I think the major problem with IS was it's ridiculously high level of fanservice and trying to make the game look more and more animeish.

While the trio from Awakening was fine, why Gaius, Cordelia and Tharja were back, with the exact gimmikicks they had? Candy again? Now Tharja is fused with Noire.

We even have maids following the MC around. Some absurd animations (Shoryuken sword strike). The intro animation itself already hinted at this when we see Ryoma with his sword energized with Chidori Raijinto jumping around enemy troops like Uchiha Madara.

I can't say how much of it was changed, but I'm guessing not much.

Awakening, bash the plot as you wish, at least had something at stake at both a world threat level and a personal one (world ending and your children left to live in hell and they die anyway). In Conquest, for example, there's absolutely nothing at stake. No tension. If I don't put Gooron on that throne, let's say, by the end of the year, what happens? Is he invincible like Gharnef and the throne removes that? Will he live forever? Will he die and then try to possess Xander? Why Corn is so rushing so much to conquer Hoshido instead of laying low and plan something else to convince others at least?

There are more emotional moments and the characters, including Robin, actually talk to each other and about things, not just blandly describe what is happening.

Even the chapters named after the siblings hint at those melodramatic one on one epic anime battles.

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I think the major problem with IS was it's ridiculously high level of fanservice and trying to make the game look more and more animeish.

While the trio from Awakening was fine, why Gaius, Cordelia and Tharja were back, with the exact gimmikicks they had? Candy again? Now Tharja is fused with Noire.

We even have maids following the MC around. Some absurd animations (Shoryuken sword strike). The intro animation itself already hinted at this when we see Ryoma with his sword energized with Chidori Raijinto jumping around enemy troops like Uchiha Madara.

I can't say how much of it was changed, but I'm guessing not much.

Awakening, bash the plot as you wish, at least had something at stake at both a world threat level and a personal one (world ending and your children left to live in hell and they die anyway). In Conquest, for example, there's absolutely nothing at stake. No tension. If I don't put Gooron on that throne, let's say, by the end of the year, what happens? Is he invincible like Gharnef and the throne removes that? Will he live forever? Will he die and then try to possess Xander? Why Corn is so rushing so much to conquer Hoshido instead of laying low and plan something else to convince others at least?

There are more emotional moments and the characters, including Robin, actually talk to each other and about things, not just blandly describe what is happening.

Even the chapters named after the siblings hint at those melodramatic one on one epic anime battles.

On top of your first point, it feels to me like they were trying to go back to the roots of the series while also trying to keep in the fanservicey aspects from Awakening. The incestuous vibes and more serious plot make it feel closer to FE4 in terms of setting, but then you get the fanservice aspects from Awkakening as well as the Shonen tropes that came from Kibayashi's style of writing and combining all that was like mixing oil and water. I'm not saying it's impossible, but the way they went about it was certainly ineffective.

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For me, I was originally planning to marry Scarlet in Birthright. However, looking at things more closely, marrying Scarlet in Revelations instead would intensify the emotions that are needed to play this game and focus on the melodrama of it all. So I plan to do that. Also, for Revelations... Is it recommended to marry the dads and have two kids? I really can't tell since I married Niles in Conquest and wanted to have the opportunity to marry Arthur and Hayato in my other two Revelations files.

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For me, I was originally planning to marry Scarlet in Birthright. However, looking at things more closely, marrying Scarlet in Revelations instead would intensify the emotions that are needed to play this game and focus on the melodrama of it all. So I plan to do that. Also, for Revelations... Is it recommended to marry the dads and have two kids? I really can't tell since I married Niles in Conquest and wanted to have the opportunity to marry Arthur and Hayato in my other two Revelations files.

with that said, she only joins for afew levels and you get no special dialogue involving her at all.

you can tell scarlet was designed to be discarded.

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However, you say that shounen isn't a genre, but is a demographic? Explain. If Shounen is targeted for males of 8-18 years, then wouldn't that just make it similar to our YA novels?

I know little of Japanese written works, so forgive my ignorance.

YA novels are probably the closest thing we have to shonen manga, yeah. Manga is generally divided into five demographics: children (7 and below), shounen, shojo (girls, same age range as shounen), seinen (older men, usually over 18) and josei (older women, usually over 18). Shounen and shojo tend to focus more on teenage characters and not deal very often with "serious" topics, while seinen and josei tend to deal with more "adult" subject matter like politics, philosophy, sex, etc and will frequently have an older cast. They also have separate magazines for each genre, which is the easiest way to tell something that may for example seem like seinen but is actually shonen like Attack on Titan.

Take a look at his most popular piece of work, Kindaichi Case Files. It suffers from one of the same problems Fates have, no world building. It only brings up the lore or information on a new location when it can help drive the plot in a certain direction. I in no way said that Kibayashi is a bad writer. He isnt, but the problem is his writing style does not work for a video game, and definitely doesnt work for Fire Emblem. Its like me expecting Joss Whedon to go write the next Elder Scrolls game and be well put together. Joss Whedon may be an excellent script writer and director for movies, but the script for a video game is going to work differently.

Why would he need to do worldbuilding in a series set in modern Japan? And that's what worldbuilding is--you generally don't bring up lore or world details unless it's at least tangentially related to what's happening in the narrative, otherwise you end up filling it up with information that is completely useless to the player/reader/viewer/etc and slowing the narrative for no reason. (Not to say that abundant detail can't be done well, since it can create characters and worlds that appear to be living if you give the right information, but generally speaking it takes a lot of skill and ironically restraint to do so well and most works don't need that level of detail.)

And speaking as someone who writes a lot and studies writing even more (and who has written a couple of scripts himself), there really isn't that much of a difference between video game and comic scripts or scripts for different mediums in general.

I understand that Shounen is not a genre, but the tropes are still there with the majority of them. Its because of who they are trying to appeal to. Transformers never had complex writing and world building either. Same with GI Joe, Thundercats, He-Man, and any other american cartoon advertised to the same age group.

You're still assuming that there are tropes that the majority of shonen shows share, while simultaneously disproving your own point by making a reference to shows in a specific genre. It would be more accurate to say that shonen action series have the problems you mentioned, but that has nothing to do with the demographic and everything to do with the tropes of each genre. There are plenty of shonen manga that don't have fighting, competition, or even real conflict. One of my favorite shounen manga, Yotsuba&!, is a comedy with no action and no conflict.

I cant tell you a single thing about the world of Fairy Tail or its lore because the only time it is relevant is to advance the plot in certain directions. Seriously, can you tell me anything about neighboring kingdoms to Fiore? How about any sort of lore in regards to the land and its history? Now that isnt a bad thing, it works just fine for Fairy Tail, as it is mainly focused on the characters and their stories not the kingdoms, I actually enjoy that about the show, but it doesnt work for a video game, and especially Fire Emblem that thrives off of the player being invested in the characters, locations, and lore of the region.

1) See above re: how to do worldbuilding.

2) Video games are not required to worldbuild anymore than any other medium unless they focus on narrative. Heck, video games don't need to do any worldbuilding at all if they're not bothering with a story, because they have an element (interactivity via gameplay) that other mediums lack. Alternatively, any worldbuilding they do is through the visuals, not the writing.

3) The main appeal of Fire Emblem has pretty much always been the gameplay. There are plenty of people (admittedly I'm not one of them) who don't care about the characters or the world. Even Genealogy and Thracia, which had much more complex plots and worldbuilding, have plenty of playable characters whose only characterization is their recruitment quote (if they have one), their death quote, their epilogue, and their lovers conversations for Genealogy.

The problem with Fates' worldbuilding is that, on top of there not being much of it even where it would be most appropriate (namely, supports, especially with characters like Scarlet, Shura, Hayato, Fuga, Rinkah, Flora, and Felicia whose home regions are barely or not at all seen over the course of the story), most of it is on Birthright and most of what's on Conquest is just a rehash of the information from Birthright.

(I think this post spiraled out of control at some point.)

Edited by AzureSen

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YA novels are probably the closest thing we have to shonen manga, yeah. Manga is generally divided into five demographics: children (7 and below), shounen, shojo (girls, same age range as shounen), seinen (older men, usually over 18) and josei (older women, usually over 18). Shounen and shojo tend to focus more on teenage characters and not deal very often with "serious" topics, while seinen and josei tend to deal with more "adult" subject matter like politics, philosophy, sex, etc and will frequently have an older cast. They also have separate magazines for each genre, which is the easiest way to tell something that may for example seem like seinen but is actually shonen like Attack on Titan.

Why would he need to do worldbuilding in a series set in modern Japan? And that's what worldbuilding is--you generally don't bring up lore or world details unless it's at least tangentially related to what's happening in the narrative, otherwise you end up filling it up with information that is completely useless to the player/reader/viewer/etc and slowing the narrative for no reason. (Not to say that abundant detail can't be done well, since it can create characters and worlds that appear to be living if you give the right information, but generally speaking it takes a lot of skill and ironically restraint to do so well and most works don't need that level of detail.)

And speaking as someone who writes a lot and studies writing even more (and who has written a couple of scripts himself), there really isn't that much of a difference between video game and comic scripts or scripts for different mediums in general.

You're still assuming that there are tropes that the majority of shonen shows share, while simultaneously disproving your own point by making a reference to shows in a specific genre. It would be more accurate to say that shonen action series have the problems you mentioned, but that has nothing to do with the demographic and everything to do with the tropes of each genre. There are plenty of shonen manga that don't have fighting, competition, or even real conflict. One of my favorite shounen manga, Yotsuba&!, is a comedy with no action and no conflict.

1) See above re: how to do worldbuilding.

2) Video games are not required to worldbuild anymore than any other medium unless they focus on narrative. Heck, video games don't need to do any worldbuilding at all if they're not bothering with a story, because they have an element (interactivity via gameplay) that other mediums lack. Alternatively, any worldbuilding they do is through the visuals, not the writing.

3) The main appeal of Fire Emblem has pretty much always been the gameplay. There are plenty of people (admittedly I'm not one of them) who don't care about the characters or the world. Even Genealogy and Thracia, which had much more complex plots and worldbuilding, have plenty of playable characters whose only characterization is their recruitment quote (if they have one), their death quote, their epilogue, and their lovers conversations for Genealogy.

The problem with Fates' worldbuilding is that, on top of there not being much of it even where it would be most appropriate (namely, supports, especially with characters like Scarlet, Shura, Hayato, Fuga, Rinkah, Flora, and Felicia whose home regions are barely or not at all seen over the course of the story), most of it is on Birthright and most of what's on Conquest is just a rehash of the information from Birthright.

(I think this post spiraled out of control at some point.

Let me rephrase what I have been trying to say.

Sorry about the confusion with Shonen, I really should of specified what I was meaning when I say that. What I am trying to get at when saying that is the type of Shonen Kibayashi writes, is that type of style. And that doesnt translate well to what we need for Fire Emblem. Kibayashi's style is a lot of the things I have said before in my other posts, and it doesnt translate well into the way Fire Emblem has worked in the past. Sure Fire Emblem has been mostly about the gameplay, but the story was still there and could be enjoyed. There was still World Building so that the player could immerse themselves into the land of Tellius or Elibe or whatever continent Fire Emblem was taking place on. We dont even know the name of Fates continent. No Fire Emblem game in the series has left us wondering what the name of the continent was. So the point I am trying to get across is that Kibayashi's writing style does not translate well to the structure needed for Fire Emblem to work. As Phillius said above, Kibayashi's style, mixed with the fan-service of Fates, and the attempt to make it like the originals didnt work because it was like trying to mix oil and water. The way IS went about putting everything together was a failure, and it didnt work. That is where IS comes in to the problem, they did a terrible job of actually putting all of this together and making it work.

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No the elephant in the room as far as FE story goes isn't related to writer and more related to how the story has been presented

Awakening and Fates is essentially a main character do shit story. Fire Emblem, from what i know have never been a main character do shit and instead a historical record which we got a glimpse on. I admit you can still do a solid world building through "main character do shit" gameplay model, but its definitely harder since the narrative need to be connected between two sides of the spectrum

For what it worth FE12 didn't really suffer from this issue because they separated the Kris lecture and the main plot with each other

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with that said, she only joins for afew levels and you get no special dialogue involving her at all.

you can tell scarlet was designed to be discarded.

That's an absolute shame since I personally love Scarlet as a character. (The only other female character I was planning to marry was Peri.)

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Why is there Hindi-styled architecture in Castle Valla when this kingdom was, clearly, inspired from Norse mythology?

Hmm? What's this? Anyone got any pictures or something?

Also, nitpick, it's not 'Hindi' architecture since Hindi is a language (and quite a recent one at that), not the culture. It's a lot more complicated than even I know in detail but I'll leave it at that.

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Hmm? What's this? Anyone got any pictures or something?

Also, nitpick, it's not 'Hindi' architecture since Hindi is a language (and quite a recent one at that), not the culture. It's a lot more complicated than even I know in detail but I'll leave it at that.

Yeah, I didn't know what word to use to describe the castle. Thanks for correcting me.

Anankos's mask resembles Buddha, and the walls of the castle that have figures resembling stuff like this:

http://www.ghumakkar.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/08/IMG_8994_RangaSwamy-Temple_srirangapatna.jpg

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No the elephant in the room as far as FE story goes isn't related to writer and more related to how the story has been presented

Awakening and Fates is essentially a main character do shit story. Fire Emblem, from what i know have never been a main character do shit and instead a historical record which we got a glimpse on. I admit you can still do a solid world building through "main character do shit" gameplay model, but its definitely harder since the narrative need to be connected between two sides of the spectrum

For what it worth FE12 didn't really suffer from this issue because they separated the Kris lecture and the main plot with each other

FE12 suffered in other ways, by Kris overtaking the actual main character after all is said and done. And this was an existing story. At least Awakening and Fates didnt really insert the main character in a story that already had a main character.

Id also argue rather hard that Fates has better world building than Awakening. Awakening didnt even have much in the way of town names and kingdom placement. Virion comes from a place called Roseanne. Go ahead, pull of the map of that world and try to find Roseanne on it. Oh, thats right, you cant because the game never gives you that information. You barely even get an idea where Chon'sin is. Hoshido and Nohr both have more world building than Ylisse and Plegia combined. Thats...bloody sad, cuz theres a lot missing in the Fates world that could be expounded on. (Fates doesnt really discuss its world's religion, which is....odd to say the least.) We get a clearer idea of a past conflict in Nohr (regarding Garon's concubines and wives) than we do about what Chrom's father did to Plegia. The latter being a fucking plot point in the first act of Awakening. wut.

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No the elephant in the room as far as FE story goes isn't related to writer and more related to how the story has been presented

Awakening and Fates is essentially a main character do shit story. Fire Emblem, from what i know have never been a main character do shit and instead a historical record which we got a glimpse on. I admit you can still do a solid world building through "main character do shit" gameplay model, but its definitely harder since the narrative need to be connected between two sides of the spectrum

For what it worth FE12 didn't really suffer from this issue because they separated the Kris lecture and the main plot with each other

The thing isn't just a "main character do shit" story. The issue is that there's no explanation for WHY a character does shit in them (Corrin included). So you see stuff happen, and you're just kind of like... "What?" This was present in a myriad of other Fire Emblem games, but at least there's flimsy explanation somewhere. take Zephiel in FE6, your response is "that's a little extreme" when you find out his plan, but you can rationalize it somehow based on the dialogue and lure given in the game. However, something like Nergal not blowing up all of your characters is a "what?" in the same way as Fates works because you're not entirely sure why Nergal doesn't. He just doesn't. Which is no good for a story, because you can't really comprehend what's happening when you see stuff happening, but you can't fathom why the event just occurred. The weird part is that Fates isn't even hard to fix.

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FE12 suffered in other ways, by Kris overtaking the actual main character after all is said and done. And this was an existing story. At least Awakening and Fates didnt really insert the main character in a story that already had a main character.

Id also argue rather hard that Fates has better world building than Awakening. Awakening didnt even have much in the way of town names and kingdom placement. Virion comes from a place called Roseanne. Go ahead, pull of the map of that world and try to find Roseanne on it. Oh, thats right, you cant because the game never gives you that information. You barely even get an idea where Chon'sin is. Hoshido and Nohr both have more world building than Ylisse and Plegia combined. Thats...bloody sad, cuz theres a lot missing in the Fates world that could be expounded on. (Fates doesnt really discuss its world's religion, which is....odd to say the least.) We get a clearer idea of a past conflict in Nohr (regarding Garon's concubines and wives) than we do about what Chrom's father did to Plegia. The latter being a fucking plot point in the first act of Awakening. wut.

That is true. Awakening barely established anything, and it really hurt the second arc because of it. The entire second arc felt unneeded to me because the continent to the left of where you are at isnt even mentioned, then all of a sudden you are getting invaded. At least Fates has a little bit established, but once again we dont even know the continent's name, which has never happened before. We really needed some better world building if the story was going to work.

I could of bought Garon's one diminsional status along with Iago if there was something more to it other than Garon just being possessed. Maybe establishing more of what happened for him becoming possessed would of worked. Showing what Garon was like before his possession, and then after. That and Iago could of been established to have been a servant of Anankos, and that is why he is there. Would of been interesting for Iago to be something like the High Priest of the cult/religion that followed Anankos.

Edited by Tolvir

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Didn't Sacred Stones also have that king that was once a benevolent ruler suddenly becoming an evil zombie that only causes war? For some strange reason, why do I still like SS's story despite its flaws compared to Garon in Conquest? Both were mindless puppets

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Didn't Sacred Stones also have that king that was once a benevolent ruler suddenly becoming an evil zombie that only causes war? For some strange reason, why do I still like SS's story despite its flaws compared to Garon in Conquest? Both were mindless puppets

Well, it probably helps that Vigarde's subordinates weren't morons.

His generals (well, the sane ones anyway) all questioned his behavior. Dussell and Glen even going so far as to suspect that not everything is as they thought it to be and take action. Selena also had a pretty good reason for her loyalty to the King.

By comparison, the Nohrian siblings throughout Conquest do nothing to even question the goals of their father until the very end. They just think he's "rough around the edges" as Elise puts it.

Edited by Sentinel07

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That is true. Awakening barely established anything, and it really hurt the second arc because of it. The entire second arc felt unneeded to me because the continent to the left of where you are at isnt even mentioned, then all of a sudden you are getting invaded. At least Fates has a little bit established, but once again we dont even know the continent's name, which has never happened before. We really needed some better world building if the story was going to work.

I could of bought Garon's one diminsional status along with Iago if there was something more to it other than Garon just being possessed. Maybe establishing more of what happened for him becoming possessed would of worked. Showing what Garon was like before his possession, and then after. That and Iago could of been established to have been a servant of Anankos, and that is why he is there. Would of been interesting for Iago to be something like the High Priest of the cult/religion that followed Anankos.

Which sucks, because I felt that the Valm Arc was the best part of Awakening (barring Robin becoming slightly sue-ish with the strategies, but that's subjective). That part of Awakening had enough potential, material and characters to carry an entire game by itself, and it gets squandered on a pointless second-act that has nearly no relation to anything going on in the main plot.

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Didn't Sacred Stones also have that king that was once a benevolent ruler suddenly becoming an evil zombie that only causes war? For some strange reason, why do I still like SS's story despite its flaws compared to Garon in Conquest? Both were mindless puppets

That's because, in addition to what Sentinel said, Vigarde isn't actually the focus of the plot at all. He gets dealt with a little over the halfway point of the game in one route and is relegated to a single line explanation as to what happened to him in the other route. Lyon is the focus here and his situation is also similar to Garon/Vigarde, though he is still alive and can interact with others but he is handled extremely well with 2 variations on how far the possession has affected him.

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That's because, in addition to what Sentinel said, Vigarde isn't actually the focus of the plot at all. He gets dealt with a little over the halfway point of the game in one route and is relegated to a single line explanation as to what happened to him in the other route. Lyon is the focus here and his situation is also similar to Garon/Vigarde, though he is still alive and can interact with others but he is handled extremely well with 2 variations on how far the possession has affected him.

Yeah, it really is sad that, in a series with villains like Travant and Lyon, they chose the most cliche and cartoonish way to portray Garon.

Especially so in Revelation, which showed how dedicated Intelligent Systems was to keeping him as villainous as possible. Didn't even get a chance to regain his old self for a moment like Sumeragi got with his children.

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Didn't Sacred Stones also have that king that was once a benevolent ruler suddenly becoming an evil zombie that only causes war? For some strange reason, why do I still like SS's story despite its flaws compared to Garon in Conquest? Both were mindless puppets

Fates really is sort of like Sacred Stones done wrong. It's proof that stuff like Slime Garon, splitting the story, and possessed characters aren't inherently bad ideas. SS made them work, it's really a testament to how much better the old writing team was.

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Which sucks, because I felt that the Valm Arc was the best part of Awakening (barring Robin becoming slightly sue-ish with the strategies, but that's subjective). That part of Awakening had enough potential, material and characters to carry an entire game by itself, and it gets squandered on a pointless second-act that has nearly no relation to anything going on in the main plot.

Would of been a really good story for an entire game. Especially since you could of had Say'ri as the main lord in the game, that would of been interesting imo. Something I also think hurt it is how they keep talking about how powerful Walhart is, and all these places he has conquered, and you whup his ass in about 5 chapters. Really felt underwhelming once they established who he was because he felt more like the playground bully that is all talk, instead of the intimidating Warlord that has been conquering nations in his sleep.

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That's because, in addition to what Sentinel said, Vigarde isn't actually the focus of the plot at all. He gets dealt with a little over the halfway point of the game in one route and is relegated to a single line explanation as to what happened to him in the other route. Lyon is the focus here and his situation is also similar to Garon/Vigarde, though he is still alive and can interact with others but he is handled extremely well with 2 variations on how far the possession has affected him.

Yep, this, so much.

I often think people get a bit rosy-eyed for earlier FE plots, but the way Lyon is handled is 1000x better than the way Garon is handled, and you can pretty much argue Sacred Stones has better writing than this game for that alone.

(Though I don't agree with Selena having better motivations than Garon's children. Selena was awful IMO, she basically figures out that Vigarde is possessed but goes into denial and gets a lot of her soldiers killed over it out of "honour". Fuck her. Duessel and Glen both made sense, though.)

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IDK if anyone else thought of this, but I feel like Xander is just a male Selena

Edited by Pixelman

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IDK if anyone else thought of this, but I feel like Xander is just a male Selena

It basically just depends on how you feel about the Camus archetype, since Selena and Xander are both a part of that.

I can't really explain it. It's just a gut feeling I have, but I honestly had no problem with Selena while Xander to me just comes off as a moron. I'm not sure why, maybe it's just something in their demeanor's or something.

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IDK if anyone else thought of this, but I feel like Xander is just a male Selena

I agree with this. I absolutely loathe the "by my honor as a knight" trope that is used all too often in Fire Emblem games, mostly because it isn't done well. The trope is simply used as an excuse to create melodrama and a chapter boss. We are told, and not shown, why characters under the Camus archetype are royal to their respective countries. We hardly explore the psychology behind the character.

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I don't think Garon acts as blatantly possessed as Vigarde does, at least outside Revelation. Vigarde openly states that his goal is to destroy the sacred stones, which is known to lead to terrible, terrible things. In other words, Vigarde is very clearly completely insane at worst. Garon, by contast, just wants to invade Hoshido and put down rebellions, which is far more sensible.

Xander is additionally helped by the fact that Garon is his dad, to whome he clearly feels great filial piety. This is a far stronger bond than the one between Selena and Vigarde (where she kinda has some weird crush on him IIRC?).

Basically, I can believe that Xander would behave the way he does, but Selena stretches belief considerably more, at least for me.

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