A Sardonic Look at Fire Emblem Fates

[Leif]

I don't think Garon acts as blatantly possessed as Vigarde does, at least outside Revelation. Vigarde openly states that his goal is to destroy the sacred stones, which is known to lead to terrible, terrible things. In other words, Vigarde is very clearly completely insane at worst. Garon, by contast, just wants to invade Hoshido and put down rebellions, which is far more sensible.

Xander is additionally helped by the fact that Garon is his dad, to whome he clearly feels great filial piety. This is a far stronger bond than the one between Selena and Vigarde (where she kinda has some weird crush on him IIRC?).

Basically, I can believe that Xander would behave the way he does, but Selena stretches belief considerably more, at least for me.

I think this is why Xander is a tad better than Selena (FE8). However, Xander's loyalty to his father would have been 100x more believable had Garon at least looked and acted like a normal human being (like Fado from FE8). He should have been cold, distant, and aloof, not blatantly evil.

Had he at least put on a facade of something that resembled kindness, it would have given Corrin more of a reason to return to Nohr in Conquest...

Edited April 17, 2016 by Leif

[JSND Alter Dragon Boner]

Clearly we need a new Archetype. I vote for a new Miklotov Archetype to round it up

[Azure Sen]

Let me rephrase what I have been trying to say.

Sorry about the confusion with Shonen, I really should of specified what I was meaning when I say that. What I am trying to get at when saying that is the type of Shonen Kibayashi writes, is that type of style. And that doesnt translate well to what we need for Fire Emblem. Kibayashi's style is a lot of the things I have said before in my other posts, and it doesnt translate well into the way Fire Emblem has worked in the past. Sure Fire Emblem has been mostly about the gameplay, but the story was still there and could be enjoyed. There was still World Building so that the player could immerse themselves into the land of Tellius or Elibe or whatever continent Fire Emblem was taking place on. We dont even know the name of Fates continent. No Fire Emblem game in the series has left us wondering what the name of the continent was. So the point I am trying to get across is that Kibayashi's writing style does not translate well to the structure needed for Fire Emblem to work. As Phillius said above, Kibayashi's style, mixed with the fan-service of Fates, and the attempt to make it like the originals didnt work because it was like trying to mix oil and water. The way IS went about putting everything together was a failure, and it didnt work. That is where IS comes in to the problem, they did a terrible job of actually putting all of this together and making it work.

Except that's not the case, because Kibayashi's written a lot more than just shounen action series (of which, he's only written like three in his twenty year career). Kibayashi has written more mysteries than action series, has written several seinen series, and has previously written science fiction, romance, sports, thrillers, mecha, drama, horror, and, most importantly, historical fiction and fantasy works. Kibayashi is at the very least has a flexible style. Also, in their Iwata Asks interview, the development staff of Fates said that Kibayashi took the conventions of the series into consideration when writing the script because of his own experience with writing in different mediums, so it's really a moot point to argue that Kibayashi's writing style is incompatible with video games or Fire Emblem in general or that stylstic difference affected the script at all.

IntSys is far more guilty than you're giving them credit for. They were, by their own admission, the ones who came up with the idea of the third route that everyone seems to hate (ironically, they said they did it for the sake of players who wouldn't want to side with either country). And if the 25th Anniversary Book is to be believed, they were working entirely off of Kibayashi's first draft for the story (which, according to the Anniversry book, was so rough it had several characters left unnamed), which is a big mistake. They're almost certainly completely responsible for the marriage/children elements and the Deeprealms and all of the other fanservice elements.

I can't really explain it. It's just a gut feeling I have, but I honestly had no problem with Selena while Xander to me just comes off as a moron. I'm not sure why, maybe it's just something in their demeanor's or something.

It's probably because Sacred Stones sets Selena up primarily as a tragic figure and makes it clear that her devotion is personal reasons, while Fates tries to play the conflict with Xander as just a case of differing ideals and tries to mask what are ultimately very selfish motives for following his father's orders as honorable actions. Not to mention that, invasions aside, Vigarde otherwise isn't acting like a puppy-kicking atrocity machine like Garon so it makes sense that he could still inspire loyalty in his officers.

I agree with this. I absolutely loathe the "by my honor as a knight" trope that is used all too often in Fire Emblem games, mostly because it isn't done well. The trope is simply used as an excuse to create melodrama and a chapter boss. We are told, and not shown, why characters under the Camus archetype are royal to their respective countries. We hardly explore the psychology behind the character.

Are you me? I hate the Camus archetype for the same reasons. It's really overdone, and their reason to stay with their obviously corrupt rulers almost always boils down to "it's a knight's duty."

I don't think Garon acts as blatantly possessed as Vigarde does, at least outside Revelation. Vigarde openly states that his goal is to destroy the sacred stones, which is known to lead to terrible, terrible things. In other words, Vigarde is very clearly completely insane at worst. Garon, by contast, just wants to invade Hoshido and put down rebellions, which is far more sensible.

Xander is additionally helped by the fact that Garon is his dad, to whome he clearly feels great filial piety. This is a far stronger bond than the one between Selena and Vigarde (where she kinda has some weird crush on him IIRC?).

Basically, I can believe that Xander would behave the way he does, but Selena stretches belief considerably more, at least for me.

The Sacred Stones are only useful for sealing Formortiis in them, and as far as Vigarde's generals know the Sacred Stone of Grado (the one that actually holds Formortiis's soul) is still intact. They're also symbols of the other nations' authority through their lineage, and so breaking them as part of their conquest of other nations makes sense. Even the people who are trying to stop him don't seem all that concerned with how he's breaking the Sacred Stones, and it's only in a vague superstitious way instead of a "oh crap he's going to summon a demon god and kill us all" way until it's revealed that's what Lyon's plan is. Garon, meanwhile, swings from "loving, caring father and reasonable ruler" to "brutal, oppressive tyrant who gleefully murders anyone who opposes him, treats his kids like crap and kills civilians with impunity" almost immediately.

(Leif, I'm really sorry for derailing the thread away from your analyses so much.)

Edited April 17, 2016 by AzureSen

[Time the Crestfallen]

As long as Xander isn't as bad as Eldigan, I'll be happy

[HF Makalov Fanboy Kai]

As long as Xander isn't as bad as Eldigan, I'll be happy

i don't think anyone is as bad as eldigan in that regard.

granted i think his retardedness was done in purpose.

xander atleast has "muh dad" to fall back on, Eldigan doesn't even have that, more so when he's part of the holy bloodline and Shagall isn't.

Edited April 17, 2016 by HF Makalov Fanboy Kai

[Dark Holy Elf]

The Sacred Stones are only useful for sealing Formortiis in them, and as far as Vigarde's generals know the Sacred Stone of Grado (the one that actually holds Formortiis's soul) is still intact. They're also symbols of the other nations' authority through their lineage, and so breaking them as part of their conquest of other nations makes sense. Even the people who are trying to stop him don't seem all that concerned with how he's breaking the Sacred Stones, and it's only in a vague superstitious way instead of a "oh crap he's going to summon a demon god and kill us all" way until it's revealed that's what Lyon's plan is. Garon, meanwhile, swings from "loving, caring father and reasonable ruler" to "brutal, oppressive tyrant who gleefully murders anyone who opposes him, treats his kids like crap and kills civilians with impunity" almost immediately.

(Leif, I'm really sorry for derailing the thread away from your analyses so much.)

Destroying the sacred stones is very clearly painted as a sinister action by the game. The game implies that it's well-known that the sacred stones ward off the Demon King and evil in general (Seth knows, and he's no scholar). And Vigarde does plenty of horrible things a la Garon, namely putting Valter (convicted of rape and other war crimes) in charge of an army, having Natasha's master killed, etc. Again, he's very clearly either insane, or somehow corrupted by evil, at least as much as Garon. It's just less in your face as a player because you aren't playing as Glen/Selena/Duessel.

(And yeah, Leif, I'll also knock this off if it bothers you.)

Edited April 17, 2016 by Dark Holy Elf

[Pixelman]

Valter (convicted of rape and other war crimes)

W-Wait, what

I know he does some bad shit, but rape?

[Time the Crestfallen]

W-Wait, what

I know he does some bad shit, but rape?

I don't know if it's ever properly confirmed, but here's what Riev has to say about him:

"Ah, Valter... You're a beast. You're bound to no country. You care nothing for friend or foe. Kill a man, claim a woman... You live for nothing more, you wretched beast. That's your strength. That's what makes you stronger than any man alive. A beast acts without remorse. Man's morality cannot win. It's nature's way..."

He also seems to really want to get his hands on Eirika, so it's pretty safe to say that he is that bad.

[RJWalker]

Eldigan does make a lot of sense though. He recognises that Grannvale has absolutely no intention of returning authority to Agustria despite all of Sigurd's promises. He decides to side with the known evil that wold at least retain Agustria's independence over the unknown evil that is reducing Agustria to a territory to be plundered.

[Augestein]

Destroying the sacred stones is very clearly painted as a sinister action by the game. The game implies that it's well-known that the sacred stones ward off the Demon King and evil in general (Seth knows, and he's no scholar). And Vigarde does plenty of horrible things a la Garon, namely putting Valter (convicted of rape and other war crimes) in charge of an army, having Natasha's master killed, etc. Again, he's very clearly either insane, or somehow corrupted by evil, at least as much as Garon. It's just less in your face as a player because you aren't playing as Glen/Selena/Duessel.

(And yeah, Leif, I'll also knock this off if it bothers you.)

Seth knows, and he's also the highest rank of general for the Kingdom or Renais. Heck, he's aware of things that Eirika and Ephraim aren't, like the power of their bracelets. So that's not an entirely fair estimate there. And at least when Vigarde does things like put Valter as a general, people respond with a "WTF is this nonsense!?" Sort of response. It's less in your face, because people basically storm off irritated by such actions, and are immediately ousted like Duessel, Glen, or Natasha, or locked away like Knoll was.

It's awesome. Man, this topic is making me wonder why they didn't just get the Sacred Stones guy back.

[Lanko]

Seth knows, and he's also the highest rank of general for the Kingdom or Renais. Heck, he's aware of things that Eirika and Ephraim aren't, like the power of their bracelets. So that's not an entirely fair estimate there. And at least when Vigarde does things like put Valter as a general, people respond with a "WTF is this nonsense!?" Sort of response. It's less in your face, because people basically storm off irritated by such actions, and are immediately ousted like Duessel, Glen, or Natasha, or locked away like Knoll was.

It's awesome. Man, this topic is making me wonder why they didn't just get the Sacred Stones guy back.

Agree. At first I didn't like Sacred Stones. It didn't appear epic, personal or even difficult. Later, I slowly warmed up to the story and characters. I just thought that Blazing Sword had a lot more going on, both at characterization and plot.

[Dark Sage]

Selena is kind of different from Xander in that she has a much more visible struggle between staying loyal and defecting like Duessel. It's obvious she is very tempted to do the latter but only stays because she remembers how Vigarde basically gave her life back when she was young. The game also frames it as a personal dilemma and acknowledges that her reasons are ultimately selfish, which is she's tragic. Fates pretends Xander's reasons aren't selfish though, and that's why he pisses people off.

Xander's more like Wolf in terms of how he reacts to Garon, but Wolf is a much better executed character in all honestly. Xander is loyal to Garon because he knows of the time when Garon was different, whereas Wolf and the rest of the Wolfguard are dedicated to Hardin because he rescued them from slavery and went against the Aurelian nobility to do so. Hardin's change was much more recent though and more notably drastic; the game actually does describe some of his policies and actions he took as Emperor before his corruption, which includes banning slavery and freeing Yubello and Yumina and returning them to Grust. Keep in mind that by the time Mystery starts, Hardin has been king for three years and he began acting erratically shortly before the events of the game. Thus, it makes more sense why the Wolfguard would be in denial about Hardin. Whereas Garon has been cartoonishly evil for an extremely long time, well over a decade; you'd think Xander would give up all hope at that point. Additionally, in Wolf's case, you get the sense that he really has nothing left to live for after he's recruited, because he smiles in his death quote and his ending has him throw himself recklessly into battle repeatedly trying to get himself killed. Xander takes Garon's death remarkably well in contrast.

Interestingly, the original Camus probably has the least selfish motives, although they don't become fully apparent until Mystery. He's loyal because he doesn't want Medeus to take his wrath out on the Grustian citizens and because Yubello and Yumina are kept as hostages. He really has no choice but to obey and the most he can do is try to subvert Medeus indirectly, like sending Nyna to Aurelis with only him and three other knights.

[Leif]

Selena is kind of different from Xander in that she has a much more visible struggle between staying loyal and defecting like Duessel. It's obvious she is very tempted to do the latter but only stays because she remembers how Vigarde basically gave her life back when she was young. The game also frames it as a personal dilemma and acknowledges that her reasons are ultimately selfish, which is she's tragic. Fates pretends Xander's reasons aren't selfish though, and that's why he pisses people off.

Xander's more like Wolf in terms of how he reacts to Garon, but Wolf is a much better executed character in all honestly. Xander is loyal to Garon because he knows of the time when Garon was different, whereas Wolf and the rest of the Wolfguard are dedicated to Hardin because he rescued them from slavery and went against the Aurelian nobility to do so. Hardin's change was much more recent though and more notably drastic; the game actually does describe some of his policies and actions he took as Emperor before his corruption, which includes banning slavery and freeing Yubello and Yumina and returning them to Grust. Keep in mind that by the time Mystery starts, Hardin has been king for three years and he began acting erratically shortly before the events of the game. Thus, it makes more sense why the Wolfguard would be in denial about Hardin. Whereas Garon has been cartoonishly evil for an extremely long time, well over a decade; you'd think Xander would give up all hope at that point. Additionally, in Wolf's case, you get the sense that he really has nothing left to live for after he's recruited, because he smiles in his death quote and his ending has him throw himself recklessly into battle repeatedly trying to get himself killed. Xander takes Garon's death remarkably well in contrast.

Interestingly, the original Camus probably has the least selfish motives, although they don't become fully apparent until Mystery. He's loyal because he doesn't want Medeus to take his wrath out on the Grustian citizens and because Yubello and Yumina are kept as hostages. He really has no choice but to obey and the most he can do is try to subvert Medeus indirectly, like sending Nyna to Aurelis with only him and three other knights.

Well said. I think more political intrigue / drama would have made Fates WAY better. Though I dislike the Camus as a character (and subsequent characters that fit in his archetype), there were, at least, a few political reasons behind his loyalty. Xander's loyalty is only based on emotion, which reduces the complexity of his character a great deal.

As a public announcement, don't worry about derailing the topic from my analysis guys. Just as long as we relate these other topics to Fates, I'm alright with slightly unrelated discussions.

I'll get working on Before Awakening in a bit; I'm very busy, unfortunately. I have a bone to pick with that DLC, because I'm getting Kingdom Hearts vibes (in terms of writing quality), and that's NOT the direction I want future FE's to take.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Leif

[eclipse]

I'll get working on Before Awakening in a bit; I'm very busy, unfortunately. I have a bone to pick with that DLC, because I'm getting Kingdom Hearts vibes (in terms of writing quality), and that's NOT the direction I want future FE's to take.

I didn't see Before Awakening as anything other than a nice little what-if and a nod to the fans. If you want more actual plot, get Hidden Truths (both of 'em).

[Loki Laufeyson]

Before Awakening is really just fanservice.

Which sucks, because I felt that the Valm Arc was the best part of Awakening (barring Robin becoming slightly sue-ish with the strategies, but that's subjective). That part of Awakening had enough potential, material and characters to carry an entire game by itself, and it gets squandered on a pointless second-act that has nearly no relation to anything going on in the main plot.

Oh dude, Walhart could have been THE COOLEST VILLAIN EVER if only there was effort put in there. His motives and demeanor are similar to Stannis Baratheon. Unfortunately, the character has no real life in him in terms of characterization. Hes just "oh ho ho i conquer all things!" which is really sad. Like, Walhart with actual well rounded characterization could have been so great. JUST SO GREAT. That arc could have been cool if...they actually made it make sense. Virion, Say'ri, Chrom, and Robin should have ALL been in the spotlight here.

I don't think Garon acts as blatantly possessed as Vigarde does, at least outside Revelation. Vigarde openly states that his goal is to destroy the sacred stones, which is known to lead to terrible, terrible things. In other words, Vigarde is very clearly completely insane at worst. Garon, by contast, just wants to invade Hoshido and put down rebellions, which is far more sensible.

Xander is additionally helped by the fact that Garon is his dad, to whome he clearly feels great filial piety. This is a far stronger bond than the one between Selena and Vigarde (where she kinda has some weird crush on him IIRC?).

Basically, I can believe that Xander would behave the way he does, but Selena stretches belief considerably more, at least for me.

Actually, in Conquest, Garon's like "i NEED TO TALK TO THE ANANKOS MUWAHAHAHA" and Hans and Iago both find this rather jarring but just shrug it off. The royal sibs overhear this kind of thing happening and are like "w u t." but do nothing about it. Garon acts very weird after the initial 6 chapters on any given route, my dude. He even does stock evil laughs. Its really bad.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Loki Laufeyson

[Time the Crestfallen]

Oh dude, Walhart could have been THE COOLEST VILLAIN EVER if only there was effort put in there. His motives and demeanor are similar to Stannis Baratheon. Unfortunately, the character has no real life in him in terms of characterization. Hes just "oh ho ho i conquer all things!" which is really sad. Like, Walhart with actual well rounded characterization could have been so great. JUST SO GREAT. That arc could have been cool if...they actually made it make sense. Virion, Say'ri, Chrom, and Robin should have ALL been in the spotlight here.

The sad thing is that Walhart actually is the coolest villain in Awakening. Look at this:

Walhart: Why do you resist me, little Prince?

Chrom: You enslave the weak and kill the able. You are the enemy of peace.

Walhart: I would end the reign of the gods, and you object on moral grounds?! Blood is spilled in any new birth, Prince. And in many a just cause, as you know...

Chrom: There is no justification for what you've done.

Walhart: By whose laws do you judge me? Yours? Your sister's? The gods'?

Chrom: You cannot—

Walhart: Look at you! Are you not ashamed? Your mind is filled with nothing but secondhand beliefs. You dance upon the stage of your gods like a mindless puppet! THAT is what I reject: being a slave to tradition, to obligation. The old ways. Damn the gods! Damn their fates and their destinies! I will have true freedom! Any man who offers less is my enemy.

Chrom: Enough! I don't require every detail of your twisted philosophy. You're a villain and a murderer, plain and simple. And I am the justice you deserve.

Walhart: Ha ha ha! Better, Prince. Much better! Be not an agent of someone else's justice, but justice itself! Now, let us fight as two great men, freed of their gods. I grant any challenger the chance to test his will against my own... But you, too, shall be found wanting!

I've heard more than once that any story is only as good as it's villain and Walhart was a great villain. He was undoubtedly the bad guy in the story, but he still had reasonable/understandable goals and motives that tie together with the events of the game (that being that the conflict between Ylisse and Plegia seems to be because Naga and Grima's teachings are incompatible with each other), but he's wasted on a pointless filler act.

Imagine if that was a conversation between Garon and Corrin, or Garon and Azura, or Garon and whoever the hell, since Nohr and Hoshido worshipping the Dark and Light Dragons respectively could be a stand-in for Naga and Grima. Mix that with his 'Nohr needs food badly' motivation for starting the war and Garon would be a great villain. A good villain can elevate a mediocre story to an amazing one (the original Star Wars trilogy wouldn't have been anywhere near as great without Darth Vader IMO), but bad villains can also drag a great story down with them as seen in Fates.

Edited April 18, 2016 by Phillius

[Loki Laufeyson]

The sad thing is that Walhart actually is the coolest villain in Awakening. Look at this:

Walhart: Why do you resist me, little Prince?

Chrom: You enslave the weak and kill the able. You are the enemy of peace.

Walhart: I would end the reign of the gods, and you object on moral grounds?! Blood is spilled in any new birth, Prince. And in many a just cause, as you know...

Chrom: There is no justification for what you've done.

Walhart: By whose laws do you judge me? Yours? Your sister's? The gods'?

Chrom: You cannot—

Walhart: Look at you! Are you not ashamed? Your mind is filled with nothing but secondhand beliefs. You dance upon the stage of your gods like a mindless puppet! THAT is what I reject: being a slave to tradition, to obligation. The old ways. Damn the gods! Damn their fates and their destinies! I will have true freedom! Any man who offers less is my enemy.

Chrom: Enough! I don't require every detail of your twisted philosophy. You're a villain and a murderer, plain and simple. And I am the justice you deserve.

Walhart: Ha ha ha! Better, Prince. Much better! Be not an agent of someone else's justice, but justice itself! Now, let us fight as two great men, freed of their gods. I grant any challenger the chance to test his will against my own... But you, too, shall be found wanting!

I've heard more than once that any story is only as good as it's villain and Walhart was a great villain. He was undoubtedly the bad guy in the story, but he still had reasonable/understandable goals and motives that tie together with the events of the game (that being that the conflict between Ylisse and Plegia seems to be because Naga and Grima's teachings are incompatible with each other), but he's wasted on a pointless filler act.

Imagine if that was a conversation between Garon and Corrin, or Garon and Azura, or Garon and whoever the hell, since Nohr and Hoshido worshipping the Dark and Light Dragons respectively could be a stand-in for Naga and Grima. Mix that with his 'Nohr needs food badly' motivation for starting the war and Garon would be a great villain. A good villain can elevate a mediocre story to an amazing one (the original Star Wars trilogy wouldn't have been anywhere near as great without Darth Vader IMO), but bad villains can also drag a great story down with them as seen in Fates.

I especially loved the part where Walhart calls out Emmeryn's sacrifice as literal bullshit because thats exactly what it was. Walhart could have been so great....so great.

Yeah Garon's motives were not discussed properly. Thing is with Fates, the religion in that world was not even really discussed, its just barely mentioned in passing. Its like they didnt even try.

[Time the Crestfallen]

I especially loved the part where Walhart calls out Emmeryn's sacrifice as literal bullshit because thats exactly what it was. Walhart could have been so great....so great.

Yeah Garon's motives were not discussed properly. Thing is with Fates, the religion in that world was not even really discussed, its just barely mentioned in passing. Its like they didnt even try.

He also has great modifiers. Best non-3rd gen Morgan I ever had.

[Loki Laufeyson]

He also has great modifiers. Best non-3rd gen Morgan I ever had.

Yoooo. I married him too. Morgs was so thwomp....

[Sentinel07]

Seth knows, and he's also the highest rank of general for the Kingdom or Renais. Heck, he's aware of things that Eirika and Ephraim aren't, like the power of their bracelets. So that's not an entirely fair estimate there. And at least when Vigarde does things like put Valter as a general, people respond with a "WTF is this nonsense!?" Sort of response. It's less in your face, because people basically storm off irritated by such actions, and are immediately ousted like Duessel, Glen, or Natasha, or locked away like Knoll was.

It's awesome. Man, this topic is making me wonder why they didn't just get the Sacred Stones guy back.

You referring to whoever wrote the story for Sacred Stones?

If so, that was Kouhei Maeda, who is one of Awakening and Fates' directors.

[Dark Holy Elf]

Actually, in Conquest, Garon's like "i NEED TO TALK TO THE ANANKOS MUWAHAHAHA" and Hans and Iago both find this rather jarring but just shrug it off. The royal sibs overhear this kind of thing happening and are like "w u t." but do nothing about it. Garon acts very weird after the initial 6 chapters on any given route, my dude. He even does stock evil laughs. Its really bad.

It is.

But at least he isn't actively trying to resurrect Satan, which is what Vigarde is doing, and if Seth realises it and Grado's clergy realises it, Grado's generals should too. Additionally, it's implied that Hoshido and Nohr had an existing conflict, which Garon merely escalates, while Vigarde creates an entirely new conflict, stabbing Grado's close allies in the back. I honestly think Vigarde is considerably worse (although since Garon is much more important than Vigarde, he hurts Fates more), but at worst they're comparable. Saying that Vigarde deserves Selena's loyalty more than Garon deserves Xander's doesn't fly at all to me.

I'm sympathetic to the arguments that Selena is painted as tragic and Xander isn't, though I don't personally agree. I interpreted Xander as misguided and tragic, in both routes (not Revelation, though. Blah at Revelation, it barely tries anything with its cast at all). And I don't really need a game to tell me what to think of its characters; I can form my own opinions on their morality.

[Time the Crestfallen]

It is.

But at least he isn't actively trying to resurrect Satan, which is what Vigarde is doing, and if Seth realises it and Grado's clergy realises it, Grado's generals should too. Additionally, it's implied that Hoshido and Nohr had an existing conflict, which Garon merely escalates, while Vigarde creates an entirely new conflict, stabbing Grado's close allies in the back. I honestly think Vigarde is considerably worse (although since Garon is much more important than Vigarde, he hurts Fates more), but at worst they're comparable. Saying that Vigarde deserves Selena's loyalty more than Garon deserves Xander's doesn't fly at all to me.

I'm sympathetic to the arguments that Selena is painted as tragic and Xander isn't, though I don't personally agree. I interpreted Xander as misguided and tragic, in both routes (not Revelation, though. Blah at Revelation, it barely tries anything with its cast at all). And I don't really need a game to tell me what to think of its characters; I can form my own opinions on their morality.

Not to mention that Fates doesn't have an equivalent for Lyon to pick up the slack in the villain department.

[Lanko]

And at least there was something at stake in FE8.

1) Using only what Conquest provided us, what's at stake? If I don't put Gooron on the throne what happens? The world ends? Will he live forever? Will he possess Xander? In Conquest there's not even a world threat, as Corrin could have laid low, like Azura and plan something else. There's nothing personal at stake either.

Bash Awakening as you like, but there was a threat (2 or 3) to the world and also personal stakes (you die and your kids will suffer for years in the future and eventually die as well).

2) Gooron is supposedly a bloodthirsty warmonger, but respects the neutrality of a number of countries and even on conquered countries he didn't appoint governors or even had soldiers to control them. Cheve specially has a lot of access to steel, horses and wyverns. Do you know how much time it took to train a proper horseman? And then train them together to not screw up formations?

3) Gooron is supposedly not the same person, but still continues to go to Opera shows like he always did.

4) Nohr is supposedly a very poor country that relies on conquest to survive and has a tyrant, mad conqueror, yet respects the neutrality of much smaller, rich countries, like Nestra. Having that much entertainment for the world must left them rich. Also, Cheve has no governor to collect taxes or a garrison to establish proper dominance.

5) Xander and the siblings tell us Gooron is more violent, never bothered conquering countries at etc. Then in Birthright we just have Silas tell Ryoma that Nohr is very poor and that their only way to survive was to conquer others and that 's how they got so powerful.

Indeed, if we take both these observations, I can only guess that Xander is indeed right in questioning his father, as he is not conquering/fighting as much as he did in the past (respects neutrality, goes to Opera shows, etc).

6) When Gooron speaks to Anankos in the beginning, Iago is taken aback, having no idea what the hell Gooron is doing. Then in Birthright Chapter 25, not only he knows Takumi is possessed (supposedly by the Invisible Kingdom/Anankos), but also can naturally control him. What the hell?

7) In BR Azura shows Leo a crystal ball, that judging for his reaction, didn't show Gooron. Then later we know he traveled to the Bottomless Canyon and confirmed through a crystal ball (the same or another) about Gooron. How the heck did he know he needed to go to the Bottomless Canyon? And how nothing happened to him? Takumi is possessed and Gunther only survives because Azura finds him.

Edited April 19, 2016 by Lanko

[Dark Holy Elf]

Not to mention that Fates doesn't have an equivalent for Lyon to pick up the slack in the villain department.

Or how much better Valter is than Hans.

(I think Fates has some advantages in writing like a PC cast I care about more but in terms of villain cast and worldbuilding and writing consistency Sacred Stones wins very easily.)

[Time the Crestfallen]

Or how much better Valter is than Hans.

(I think Fates has some advantages in writing like a PC cast I care about more but in terms of villain cast and worldbuilding and writing consistency Sacred Stones wins very easily.)

That's my biggest complaint about Fates. The story itself doesn't bother me (there's certainly worse out there), but they had what was in my opinion, easily the best cast of Playable Characters in the entire franchise (and the overall cast is pretty up there) and they squandered it on the story.