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Leif

A Sardonic Look at Fire Emblem Fates

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Because I'm the one that has to clean that shit up when it gets out of hand. And if the report queue is any indication, it's more often than I like.

Now, if there was a "well I didn't like it but if other people did, that's great" mentality, or "I don't care for it, and I'll leave it at that", I'd be fine with it. But going on a forum JUST to complain about something, or finding companionship in complaining? That's beyond wasting my time, IMO.

Therefore, for those who can never find satisfaction with the story, I propose a minimalistic story, and characters with two lines of dialogue, tops. After all, how many people complain about how contrived/one-dimensional Medeus is?

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Because I'm the one that has to clean that shit up when it gets out of hand. And if the report queue is any indication, it's more often than I like.

Now, if there was a "well I didn't like it but if other people did, that's great" mentality, or "I don't care for it, and I'll leave it at that", I'd be fine with it. But going on a forum JUST to complain about something, or finding companionship in complaining? That's beyond wasting my time, IMO.

Therefore, for those who can never find satisfaction with the story, I propose a minimalistic story, and characters with two lines of dialogue, tops. After all, how many people complain about how contrived/one-dimensional Medeus is?

Judging by the negative reactions in the entire Pokémon community to X & Y's story, I'd say a minimalistic approach won't necessarily work, especially not in a franchise that now has doubled down on trying to include character development and self-inserts in order to make it easier for players to connect to the characters they're particularly fond of. Fire Emblem being a sequence of skirmishes would remove the important aspect of feeling like you're actually fighting against something, and it would make any and all character development inconsequential.

And yes, while people will complain about everything, it's never just either hate or love - my favorite game of all time in terms of story is the first Ace Attorney game, and it's got problems as well, and I've criticized them in the past. That doesn't mean I hate the game, just like me whining about Fates' many story issues doesn't mean I dislike the game in its entirety.

Edited by Thane

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Judging by the negative reactions in the entire Pokémon community to X & Y's story, I'd say a minimalistic approach won't necessarily work, especially not in a franchise that now has doubled down on trying to include character development and self-inserts in order to make it easier for players to connect to the characters they're particularly fond of. Fire Emblem being a sequence of skirmishes would remove the important aspect of feeling like you're actually fighting against something, and it would make any and all character development inconsequential.

And yes, while people will complain about everything, it's never just either hate or love - my favorite game of all time in terms of story is the first Ace Attorney game, and it's got problems as well, and I've criticized them in the past. That doesn't mean I hate the game, just like me whining about Fates' many story issues doesn't mean I dislike the game in its entirety.

This is true. Thane said what was on my mind rather eloquently.

People are going to complain about something regardless how objectively good it is. It's human nature, unfortunately. Even though I am disappointed with the Fates plot, I believe that it had the potential to be something really great, and I DO acknowledge where it did things right. I have found little moments of brilliance here and there in Fates's story. Had they changed the plot a bit, like Garon for instance, we could have had a more compelling adventure.

JRPG games CAN have great plots, just look at Final Fantasy Tactics, Digital Devil Saga, and Tactics Ogre for instance. Of course someone can nitpick and find things that are wrong with these stories, but, overall, they are solid narratives. The better the plot, the more players can enjoy the ride. I still stand by what I said: IS needs to hire a writer who has experience with writing for video games.

Edited by Leif

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Judging by the negative reactions in the entire Pokémon community to X & Y's story, I'd say a minimalistic approach won't necessarily work, especially not in a franchise that now has doubled down on trying to include character development and self-inserts in order to make it easier for players to connect to the characters they're particularly fond of. Fire Emblem being a sequence of skirmishes would remove the important aspect of feeling like you're actually fighting against something, and it would make any and all character development inconsequential.

Pokemon fans complaining about story in a mainline game is still one of the biggest jokes in gaming tbh. If they want story they can play Mystery Dungeon, Coliseum or XD

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Pokemon fans complaining about story in a mainline game is still one of the biggest jokes in gaming tbh. If they want story they can play Mystery Dungeon, Coliseum or XD

I think Thane was saying that, in general, people can get angry with a barebones plot just as much as they can with a story that doesn't make sense.

Sorry if I am speaking for you, Thane. :(

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Pokemon fans complaining about story in a mainline game is still one of the biggest jokes in gaming tbh. If they want story they can play Mystery Dungeon, Coliseum or XD

Why? The fifth generation took such a huge step forward with its plot that people were left disappointed when the next one didn't include nearly the same amount of depth and had so many throwaway characters; I think what made it worse is that there was a hint of something that could've been pretty intriguing, with AZ and Lysandre, but Team Flare and the "rivals" ruined any credibility the story could've had.

I'm a pretty casual Pokémon fan who only plays the main installments; I don't think it's a joke that I'd want more of generaton V's story and less of generation VI's.

I think Thane was saying that, in general, people can get angry with a barebones plot just as much as they can with a story that doesn't make sense.

Sorry if I am speaking for you, Thane. :(

You spoke well, my apprentice. The power of story criticism flows strongly through your veins.

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JRPG games CAN have great plots, just look at Final Fantasy Tactics, Digital Devil Saga, and Tactics Ogre for instance. Of course someone can nitpick and find things that are wrong with these stories, but, overall, they are solid narratives. The better the plot, the more players can enjoy the ride. I still stand by what I said: IS needs to hire a writer who has experience with writing for video games.

And this is why it's impossible to have a universally good story. See, I thought Final Fantasy Tactics was trying too hard, and thus wasn't a good story. Thus, no matter how "good" the writer is, someone's gonna have a problem with it. Won't comment on DDS and Tactics Ogre - never played the former, don't remember much of the latter.

Having a bunch of different story tastes is fine and dandy. Not shutting up about things that you don't like isn't.

At this point, I feel like I'm repeating the same point, so I'll sum it up one more time, in bold:

Feel free to like/dislike things, but don't make that like/dislike your defining trait. If that IS your defining trait, change it, because it has a negative effect on other people.

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If someone builds their own views based on something another person said on a forum without experiencing a media for themselves, then that is their own problem.

People should decide on their own if they like or dislike something, not go by another's opinion on the matter. If I had gone only by what I had heard or read from other people, I would be a very misinformed person and I would likely have missed out on things that have made me into the person I am today.

Lesson for today: Don't let others' opinion define something you may want to experience. You are gimping yourself and following a sheep mentality. Formulate your own opinions and views.

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If someone builds their own views based on something another person said on a forum without experiencing a media for themselves, then that is their own problem.

People should decide on their own if they like or dislike something, not go by another's opinion on the matter. If I had gone only by what I had heard or read from other people, I would be a very misinformed person and I would likely have missed out on things that have made me into the person I am today.

Lesson for today: Don't let others' opinion define something you may want to experience. You are gimping yourself and following a sheep mentality. Formulate your own opinions and views.

I've had comments about how other places were really negative, and SF is a breath of fresh air. So yes, other people can bring the mood down. I've also seen people apologizing for playing Awakening first, and IMO that is ass-backwards. Every last one of us is part of the FE community. What kind of community do you want? I'm all for diverse opinions, but I want the underlying tone to be one of respect. So I don't mind if people don't care for various things in whatever FE game. I do care when it becomes repeated over and over, for the sake of being repeated.

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I've had comments about how other places were really negative, and SF is a breath of fresh air. So yes, other people can bring the mood down. I've also seen people apologizing for playing Awakening first, and IMO that is ass-backwards. Every last one of us is part of the FE community. What kind of community do you want? I'm all for diverse opinions, but I want the underlying tone to be one of respect. So I don't mind if people don't care for various things in whatever FE game. I do care when it becomes repeated over and over, for the sake of being repeated.

Yes. All this stuff gets parroted over and over again and its really hard to pick out which is an actually legit opinion of someone, or if they are just trying to look "cool" or something. Go with the flow stuff. Im actually seeing a lot of people on Tumblr and stuff being like "Dont hurt me, but i dont hate Conquest's story that much?" and go on to say why. That disturbs me, the "dont hurt me but" parts i see. Like why do people even need to do that? Shame, shame. So what if someone liked that story? So what if someone didnt? just dont be dicks about it and allow it to define you.

I really wish people didnt allow themselves to be defined by what they consume....

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And I understand that. I'm also tired of Conquest's flaws being regurgitated like vomit--but I can't stop another person for expressing how they feel.

I mean, at the end of the day, people are going to say what they want to say. You can't escape the negativity--but, again, people should formulate their own opinions. If people allowed negativity to tarnish everything they could possibly want to experience, then the world would be a very sad, close-minded and ugly place--more so than some seem to think it already is.

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It's not just for JRPG or videogames. People also complain about certain parts in Game of Thrones, Harry Potter, Prince of Thorns or Lord of the Rings or even Shakespeare. Sometimes it's down to taste on themes. "This is realistic, but it's too violent." "Why character X did Y?" This happens in all media.

The difference is that when most of it is good, the complains are minor or muffled under what's good. I felt the inverse happened to Conquest.

And about being tired of being complaining, just remember the game is still gonna be released in Europe, and you can expect another wave of complains. You may be tired because you probably heard about it for 2-3 months, but for them it will be something completely fresh that was just experienced, the same for people who pick the game at a later date. What then?

Edited by Lanko

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It's not just for JRPG or videogames. People also complain about certain parts in Game of Thrones, Harry Potter, Prince of Thorns or Lord of the Rings or even Shakespeare. Sometimes it's down to taste on themes. "This is realistic, but it's too violent." "Why character X did Y?" This happens in all media.

The difference is that when most of it is good, the complains are minor or muffled under what's good. I felt the inverse happened to Conquest.

And about being tired of being complaining, just remember the game is still gonna be released in Europe, and you can expect another wave of complains. You may be tired because you probably heard about it for 2-3 months, but for them you will be something completely fresh that was just experienced, the same for people who pick the game at a later date. What then?

Then I'll be depressed.

Regardless, I think that being mindful of not only what is said, but how it affects others, is the way to go. It doesn't mean blind praise for everything Fates. What it means is that making a million new topics just because "OMG MY COMPLAINT IS NEW" is not how to do it. If I could, I'd make the General Complaints About Fates' Story/Plot/Characters thread, and let the chips fall where they may.

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Because I'm the one that has to clean that shit up when it gets out of hand. And if the report queue is any indication, it's more often than I like.Now, if there was a "well I didn't like it but if other people did, that's great" mentality, or "I don't care for it, and I'll leave it at that", I'd be fine with it. But going on a forum JUST to complain about something, or finding companionship in complaining? That's beyond wasting my time, IMO.Therefore, for those who can never find satisfaction with the story, I propose a minimalistic story, and characters with two lines of dialogue, tops. After all, how many people complain about how contrived/one-dimensional Medeus is?

I apologize if I assumed something wrong, or if said was completely different from what meant.

Anyway, like some you said, there will always be someone who will dislike something no matter how good some think it is.

Like eclispe, I dislike Final Fantasy Tactis for some reasons.

But not everyone liking something it's not excatly a bad thing. People have different opinions and that what's make things interesting.

Funny people should mention Pokemon Black&White, because the game's theme was about that.

I even remember a certain NPC that said that it's actually really strange and wrong for everyone to share the same opinion and ideals.

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Guys, the crux of eclipse's argument is this, ok?

and try not to bog or drag down the fandom with the constant of not liking of things.

Edited by Loki Laufeyson

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Fate's story being pointed out for its flaws seems to be in a feedback loop since it was first released in Japan, because I remember the conversations about the story then as we are having now (and no doubt there will be another revival when it gets released in the EU). As for me, it has been released in the US and I started playing and finishing the games, so I started giving out my opinions on it as well, which happens to align with the negative feedback regarding its narrative.

Some may complain and point out flaws for the sake of it. Others may do so because they notice there's a bandwagon going and they want to be on the "winning team", so they make up something to say. Others still perhaps just do it as a method to make themselves feel superior.

The important point, however, are those few who attempt to reveal these specific points in an attempt to achieve a positive outcome. Saying "Well x sucks" is terrible because it has no real meaning, and if repeated enough, its negativity will start rubbing off on the viewers. Saying "Well, I disliked x, but I think it can be improved or fixed with y or z", is better, as there this a foundation offered for future works.

Criticism is a doubled edge sword that must be wielded carefully. Used incorrectly, it will build up constant negativity and not solve the issue that is trying to be addressed, and will likely cause problems for the critic, the party being criticized, and those who are exposed to the criticisms. However, if worded correctly (softening and trying to rephrase into something more positive), the "complaint" will still get the point across but without the negativity.

Another method amidst the negativity is to try to understand where the developers and writers were coming from. Maybe they did have an amazing story in mind, but the superiors said "Remember to add in the Fire Emblem tropes, and you have to add in x because of sales, and simplify y to broaden our audiences and potential revenue, etc." I believe this scenario happened with Paper Mario Sticker Star, was was supposed to be like Thousand Year Door, but instead became its own thing. Or, perhaps there were too many writers and the narrative got mixed up along the way. Who knows?

At the end of the day, everyone will have different opinions. There may be some common ground, but there is no real way to make everyone happy. Is there a great deal of negativity surrounding the story of Fire Emblem: Fates? Yes. Are there people having fun with the games despite the negativity? Yes. Are some people expressing their complaints with the game in a manner that may be funny or humorous? Yes. Will there always be jerks to ruin a perfectly good day? Depends if you allow them to. How did this whole conversation start? I have no idea.

* * * * *

Back to the topic at hand, I look forward to the analysis of Revelations and the Xenologues. I believe the criticism is handled well alongside the various other references thrown in.

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I still believe the games suffered because they were too focused on connecting the games to Revelations instead of focusing on making them into their own unique narratives.

I won't say anything on Revelations until Leif posts their write-up, though.

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Yeah, when I do reviews/analyses of plots, I do my best to talk about things that were done well. There are positives in everything, you just have to look for it. Fates does have many positive qualities.

excuse the sappy cliche

I am bogged down with work, so I'll get Revelation done by next weekend (hopefully).

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There was a piece of advice that my father once told me:

"People words only have as much power as you let them have"

This is very evident in the nature of criticism. It will only change your opinion of a work if you let it change your opinion.

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Yeah, when I do reviews/analyses of plots, I do my best to talk about things that were done well. There are positives in everything, you just have to look for it. Fates does have many positive qualities.

excuse the sappy cliche

I am bogged down with work, so I'll get Revelation done by next weekend (hopefully).

hey brah-brah, i dont think eclipse was really talking at you with her posts. I know i wasnt. So dont worry about it. I like reading peoples opinions on junk, and im getting to the point where i can tell whos regurgitating and who isnt. (and you aint)

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I read your rant on the Gay Marriage Ships and as much as I love Niles, I totally agree with this assessment. I hope IS in the future make more same-sex options in their future games. What I was thinking is marrying someone like Mozu off to a female Corrin. I kind of preferred the idea of having Rhajat for a daughter more than a wife. Her being the lesbian S-Support however kind of baffles me but it's only because they thought Rhajat only like Corrin so we can call back to Tharja obsessing over Robin which is stupid and lazy. Having Rhajat stalking Corrin is also bad and having her only character trait centering around them makes the logic of IS bad. Oh! Silas wants to be your best friend and will do anything for you. Not one of the S-Supports both genders can marry. But Rhajat stalks you because she thinks you are destined to be hers forever. Perfect S-Rank both genders can have. UGH. As a bisexual woman, this hurts me so much.

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I read your rant on the Gay Marriage Ships and as much as I love Niles, I totally agree with this assessment. I hope IS in the future make more same-sex options in their future games. What I was thinking is marrying someone like Mozu off to a female Corrin. I kind of preferred the idea of having Rhajat for a daughter more than a wife. Her being the lesbian S-Support however kind of baffles me but it's only because they thought Rhajat only like Corrin so we can call back to Tharja obsessing over Robin which is stupid and lazy. Having Rhajat stalking Corrin is also bad and having her only character trait centering around them makes the logic of IS bad. Oh! Silas wants to be your best friend and will do anything for you. Not one of the S-Supports both genders can marry. But Rhajat stalks you because she thinks you are destined to be hers forever. Perfect S-Rank both genders can have. UGH. As a bisexual woman, this hurts me so much.

Hmmm. . .what's your opinion on Soliel (both as a female Corrin pairing and as a character in general)? I think she would've worked, given how she acts.

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Hmmm. . .what's your opinion on Soliel (both as a female Corrin pairing and as a character in general)? I think she would've worked, given how she acts.

Good question. I have mixed thoughts? For starters, YAY! A Fire Emblem character that likes both genders! She's a tough cookie Mercenary and as a Unit, she's INCREDIBLE! However, I feel like her male supports are downplayed and her female supports made her an Up To Eleven creeper. I didn't particularly enjoy her support with Ophelia AT ALL. I then decided to see her support with Percy and that support ALSO was wrong. I kind of don't want to do an S-Support with her both Male AND Female seeing the controversy she already has to begin with. Did I mention she hits on her MOM?! Ugh!

I shipped her with Forrest and that ship didn't make me cringe as badly as her Ophelia/Soleil Support but at the same time, it was just BAD execution of what could be a pretty swell character. It doesn't matter if she's awkward like her grandmother, it is no excuse for how she approaches women in her army. I dunno though. I kind of picture her and Rhajat actually being a cute couple. I don't know why but it works for me.

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I dunno, maybe Arete told her "only we can go to Valla through water because we're Vallite, if you want anyone else to get here you need to have them jump into the Bottomless Canyon"? Since, you know, Arete's the one she got the information on Valla from in the first place? Arete was born in Valla as royalty, so surely she'd have known about an ability like that, right?

You're assuming they have time to go gallivanting off to the Bottomless Canyon in the middle of a war, and that Garon wouldn't punish them severely for desertion (which it would essentially be considered, abandoning the front lines for something else) when they got back.

Exactly, she acts so out of character, so far removed from Support!Azura, Birthright!Azura, and Revelation!Azura, that judging her as "horrid" solely for that moment is a huge disservice. Birthright!Azura never says anything about Valla because they never go there and never have the chance to, and Revelation!Azura spills the beans as soon as she can. Conquest!Azura is forced by the writers to act out of character and keep silent so players can buy Revelation later, just like Xander and the Nohrian siblings are forced to refuse to acknowledge Garon is evil.

Heck, Story!Xander has a moment just as bad as Conquest Chapter 15, refusing to acknowledge that Garon is evil when he overhears him plotting to kill Corrin, and even threatening to kill Corrin if he's wrong about Garon, which goes completely against his established trait of loving his sibling dearly. Does that make him one of the worst characters in the game, laying aside the fact that Support!Xander, like Support!Azura, is a really fleshed-out and thoughtful character with established flaws and virtues? When a character is forced to suddenly act contrary to they were before, for the sake of the plot, you don't blame them for it, you blame the writers. And anyone who touches Conquest's plot sans Takumi is worse off for it.

Which still causes problems, because we're back to problems that rival Radiant Dawn's blood pact. We need more information. It's a great deal to assume the context of a conversation to force the plot to work. We have to guess the context of the conversation. Regardless, it STILL doesn't work, because that means that when they are actually physically in Valla, Azura should be able to give a better answer besides the avoidance of the questions that she does. The conversation is the most rigid way of avoiding the conversation I've ever seen. Revelations shouldn't have existed, and Conquest should have had the goal change after they arrived in Valla and basically been the rest of revelations from there. The story would have worked much better, and there would have been more conflict between the siblings between the two factions doing it this way.

No. I'm assuming the world doesn't exist in a void where things only happen the second the player starts playing. And why would it even matter at that point? Conquest Corrin would be WAY better off abandoning Nohr mid war than Revelations Corrin that literally starts out with no one but Azura, and the maid/butler. There's no reason. Especially when Corrin is deceiving Garon the ENTIRE time.

Actually judging her on these ones is more a judge of her than her supports or anything else. 2 out of 3 paths, she really doesn't do anything about it. Her record is already looking pretty bleak, but then they actually physically arrive on the land that she can tell Corrin what's happening, and ... Doesn't. Considering what's at stake, this is really bad.

Which honestly doesn't give him much of a pass either. But even then, Xander's still makes far more sense as there's a huge difference between not wanting to kill your father and threatening the person that says that they want to basically take your father out, and refusing to reveal the information because... Reasons.

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