Bad/Horrible support conversations!

[RedEyedDrake]

"Why should I think that she magically does in their A-Support just because she remembered her mother's murder"? Because it was the single most defining event of her life, maybe? Because that is what she will now be using as reference? And she says "I might not remember all the time, but I'll try to think about it" because people don't go through such a drastic change in their way of thinking instantaneously.

[Soapbar]

That's not how their A Support goes. He spends most of it comforting her over her mother's death, and only brings up her killing habits at the very end. Specifically, what he says is: "Can you take a moment before you kill someone? Remember how you felt when your mother died. Think about if they deserve that." He's appealing to a sense of empathy that Peri has repeatedly shown to not have for the people she kills. While he may not know the extent of her lack of empathy, I certainly do, and that's what makes the entire support ring hollow for me. Also, Peri's response doesn't indicate that she's actually learned why her indiscriminate murder is bad, she just says "I might not remember all the time, but I'll try to think about it." She didn't understand in their B-Support or any of her other supports, why should I think that she magically does in their A-Support just because she remembered her mother's murder? (This is more directed at the game.)

What Laslow does in their A-Support barely counts as telling her what she does is wrong, and the fact that he completely softens his approach after hearing her backstory doesn't help. Maybe "completely forget" is the wrong phrasing, but he's far too forgiving given how in their B-Support he seems to very disapproving of her actions and in general seems to really value human life. Which only leads me to two conclusions: 1( That he's over-empathizing with her because they both lost mothers when they were young and/or 2( Just like Xander and M!Corrin, he's willing to overlook/enable her "habits" if it means a chance to marry/bed her.

(Peri is kind of the inverse of Beruka; the more supports Peri gets, the worse it is for everyone else's character.)

except Laslow isn't appealing to Peri's non-existant sense of empathy, he's literally teaching her how to empathize. Look over that line again:

"Can you take a moment before you kill someone? Remember how you felt when your mother died. Think about if they deserve that."

he's telling her to imagine how she felt when her mother was killed and how that same pain is felt by other people when she kills their loved ones. He is teaching her how to relate her pain to others, put herself in their shoes. He's not appealing to a sense of empathy, he's literally teaching her how to feel empathy for others.

plus, even if Peri doesn't recognize indiscriminate murder is bad right away in their A-Support it is, at the very least, a goddamn start. Laslow is the only character in the entire army who manages to at least start Peri down on the road to common decency. If you S-Support them, Laslow has his entire life to turn Peri around into a decent person (and even then it'd probably only take a few months at most since Laslow is shown to value life). It's honestly the best support for the both of them imo.

Edited April 10, 2016 by Soapbar

[Loki Laufeyson]

I also liked Peri's support with Odin as it showed her actively doing something productive. Maybe not for herself, but at least for others.

this is Peri's best support aside from Laslow, actually.

Leo is the one who tells Peri what shes doing is absolutely wrong

[FEHypeTrain]

While I'm completely on board with Las/Peri, for the reasons above, it's worth mentioning that Silas is an OK alternative. If you haven't read them, don't expect to ship them or anything, but if you can't get into any of Silas's supports either, then you might as well. He acknowledges that she's lashing out against defenseless people, and actually comes up with a practical solution that she accepts. Is she still harassing servants? Yes, but that's a huge step down from killing them, which Silas makes sure she doesn't do.

Again, not my ship, but they're both pretty limited when it comes to good supports. So, to keep Peri from killing and let other couples be together, I think they would work. Even if their S support does nothing for me, it kinda implies they've had time to know each other, if she's being more gentle or whatever. And hey, Peri does make a pretty cute Sophie, so.

[TanatatKnight]

except Laslow isn't appealing to Peri's non-existant sense of empathy, he's literally teaching her how to empathize. Look over that line again:

"Can you take a moment before you kill someone? Remember how you felt when your mother died. Think about if they deserve that."

he's telling her to imagine how she felt when her mother was killed and how that same pain is felt by other people when she kills their loved ones. He is teaching her how to relate her pain to others, put herself in their shoes. He's not appealing to a sense of empathy, he's literally teaching her how to feel empathy for others.

plus, even if Peri doesn't recognize indiscriminate murder is bad right away in their A-Support it is, at the very least, a goddamn start. Laslow is the only character in the entire army who manages to at least start Peri down on the road to common decency. If you S-Support them, Laslow has his entire life to turn Peri around into a decent person (and even then it'd probably only take a few months at most since Laslow is shown to value life). It's honestly the best support for the both of them imo.

Yeah, the game even have their support growth be faster than others. "Like It was meant to be" This pairing is so canon, that all of Laslow's other S-supports can't even break the amount of heartwarming they share which each other.

[Water Mage]

Yeah, the game even have their support growth be faster than others. "Like It was meant to be" This pairing is so canon, that all of Laslow's other S-supports can't even break the amount of heartwarming they share which each other.

While I do like Laslow and Peri's support, the fact that their support is faster than normal is because all retainer pairs require less support points to reach the next rank.

For example Azama and Setsuna support rank grow faster with each when compared to other characters. It's the same with Laslow and Peri.

[Thane]

While I do like Laslow and Peri's support, the fact that their support is faster than normal is because all retainer pairs require less support points to reach the next rank.

For example Azama and Setsuna support rank grow faster with each when compared to other characters. It's the same with Laslow and Peri.

The same goes for the siblings.

Aside from Hinoka and Sakura.

...And Hinoka and Takumi.

But she's got faster supports with Corrin! Wait...what, why?

[TanatatKnight]

While I do like Laslow and Peri's support, the fact that their support is faster than normal is because all retainer pairs require less support points to reach the next rank.

For example Azama and Setsuna support rank grow faster with each when compared to other characters. It's the same with Laslow and Peri.

That true, I think it was more about how Laslow x Peri seems a lot more romantic or heartwarming than anyone else. However they are not the only one with that tone, as on the flipside, Saizo x Kagero have the same sort of romantic/heartwarming tone as well. Most of the other retainers have more of an assurance support with one another that they will always be supporting their royal.

[Abvora]

The same goes for the siblings.

Aside from Hinoka and Sakura.

...And Hinoka and Takumi.

But she's got faster supports with Corrin! Wait...what, why?

Wasn't it said that Hinoka didn't spend much time with her siblings because she was so focused on rescuing Corrin? Could be because of that.

Corrin and Azura have a fast support growth rate too, and they're neither lord/retainer nor siblings must be canon

[Ebony]

The same goes for the siblings.

Aside from Hinoka and Sakura.

...And Hinoka and Takumi.

But she's got faster supports with Corrin! Wait...what, why?

Thane, you should know by now... to Hinoka, there's only two people on Earth:

Hinoka

Corrin

[Dark Holy Elf]

Hinoka's supports with her younger siblings made me feel like they didn't get along that well. Hinoka/Takumi involves them disagreeing aggressively, while Hinoka/Sakura has them remarking how little they have in common.

Xander/Laslow and Takumi/Hinata are also exempt from the general trend of everyone within a retainer/royal trio having fast supports.

[Azure Sen]

@RedEyedDrake and Soapbar, let's just agree to disagree for now. If you guys want to keep discussing, shoot me a PM.

On the topic at hand: Saizo/Charlotte is pretty bad, now that I've finally read it for myself. They have zero chemistry, and their entire support chain is just them exchanging insults.

[Magpul21]

On the topic at hand: Saizo/Charlotte is pretty bad, now that I've finally read it for myself. They have zero chemistry, and their entire support chain is just them exchanging insults.

Yeah, I mentioned before that I think that they were trying to go for the whole "Couple that's always at each other's throats but have underlying sexual tension". That works for some ships, but those two? I don't see any sexual tension, just flat-out dislike of each other/hatred.

[saisymbolic]

Gunter x F!Corrinmui S-rank.

I would have been okay had they not bonded over playing Catch.

...I could have worked with the age. Or, at least, turned a blind-eye to it and pretended he was young.

[nordopolica]

Gunter x F!Corrinmui S-rank.

I would have been okay had they not bonded over playing Catch.

...I could have worked with the age. Or, at least, turned a blind-eye to it and pretended he was young.

And the fact that a good part of the support is based on their father-daughter-esq. relationship? Yeah, me too.

All of the sibling romantic supports skeeve me out. Like someone else said, if they wanted things to be this way they shouldn't have based the majority of the game's premise on familial relationships directly linked to the avatar character. Camilla's support and the letter-writing ones are the worst offenders IMO. (And Elise's, but that's a different issue, I think.) The fact that it is not acknowledged narratively with any of them kind of solidifies my position on that.

[Thane]

So uh, I just read Corrin and Anna's support and it was...interesting.

Anna: I tried scamming you, we cool?

Corrin: Sure.

Anna: You're way too kind for your own good. I like that in a man, but I still love you less than money. Let's get married!

[Corbin]

Ah, and... I didn't liked how Oboro support with Niles was handled either, the S support feels to come out from nowhere... I feel that is not right to let her marry someone from Nohr, since surpassing her hate towards a nation it can't be THAT fast and easy but... I like the idea of her learning to getting along with them, but marriage sound too much for someone with big issues like her. Well, that's just my opinion of course, I can be wrong.

I can see why you would see it as a weak support, but then again, Niles has a similar problem in his support with Setsuna, the only difference being there's less chemistry, so if I ever had to pick between pairing him with Setsuna or Oboro, I'd choose Oboro (though Takumi x Oboro is still OTP).

Oh god, Silas is so hard to pair off. I thought he was just a nice bro at first, but he can be surprisingly judgmental at times.

In addition to just being uncalled for, some of his judgement calls I found he was in no position to make, such as criticizing Hana's devotion to Sakura when she's known her longer than Silas has known Corrin and is her retainer and telling Felicia she may be the reason for why Corrin's feeling bad when it should be her job to know why. This not only tells me how much Silas needs to get off his high horse, but also just how obsessive he really is.

Edited April 10, 2016 by Corbin

[RedRob]

In addition to just being uncalled for, some of his judgement calls I found he was in no position to make, such as criticizing Hana's devotion to Sakura when she's known her longer than Silas has known Corrin and is her retainer and telling Felicia she may be the reason for why Corrin's feeling bad when it should be her job to know why. This not only tells me how much Silas needs to get off his high horse, but also just how obsessive he really is.

That's pretty much why he's disliked over in Japan. He can be quite the obsessed creep.

[RedEyedDrake]

On the subject of Silas, I find it worthy of note how, when it comes to Corrin, he and the Hoshidan siblings are in the same boat. "We've known each other for a relatively short period of time when we all were younger and now that we've met again we can go back to being as we were as if nothing happened, even though you don't (initially?) remember us". All of them just act like the years that have passed since didn't matter at all for any of them or for Corrin when they most certainly did.

Edited April 10, 2016 by RedEyedDrake

[Corbin]

That's pretty much why he's disliked over in Japan. He can be quite the obsessed creep.

Hearing about that actually caused me to realize it myself.

On the subject of Silas, I find it worthy of note how, when it comes to Corrin, he and the Hoshidan siblings are in the same boat. "We've known each other for a relatively short period time when we all were younger and now that we've met again we can go back to being as we are as if nothing happened, even though you don't (initially?) remember us". All of them just act like the years that have passed since didn't matter at all for any of them or for Corrin when they most certainly did.

I did notice that, actually. Sakura and Takumi didn't bother me as much, especially in the latter's case, but I'd be remiss if I never saw Ryoma and Hinoka as obsessive. Believe it or not, some of Hinoka's dialogue actually made me cringe more than Camilla's, and unlike her Nohrian counterpart, she a) has no reason for why she's so doting on Corrin and b) never shows the same amount of affection to her other younger siblings, and it shows in their supports. Ryoma's no better: he actively takes every opportunity to demonize Nohr so that Corrin can come back to Hoshido, outright lies about their bloodline, uses an innocent girl's life as a bargaining chip to get Corrin to come home and, when they refuse, attempts to kidnap them, all for a younger sibling they've barely known. Edited April 10, 2016 by Corbin

[Thane]

I did notice that, actually. Sakura and Takumi didn't bother me as much, especially in the latter's case, but I'd be remiss if I never saw Ryoma and Hinoka as obsessive. Believe it or not, some of Hinoka's dialogue actually made me cringe more than Camilla's, and unlike her Nohrian counterpart, she a) has no reason for why she's so doting on Corrin and b) never shows the same amount of affection to her other younger siblings, and it shows in their supports. Ryoma's no better: he actively takes every opportunity to demonize Nohr so that Corrin can come back to Hoshido, outright lies about their bloodline, uses an innocent girl's life as a bargaining chip to get Corrin to come home and, when they refuse, attempts to kidnap them, all for a younger sibling they've barely known.

[spoiler=Sigh...]

I don't want to derail the thread by talking about this, but how come this incident is always brought up as a point against Ryouma? Look, I'm not the guy's biggest fan, but he did everything right with the cards he was given; I would've been super annoyed if he decided to help the princess of the nation that attacked his country for no reason at all. Besides, judging by how Conquest goes, can we really blame Ryouma for wanting to stop Corrin from going on a murderous rampage? Corrin makes the fucking Undertale genocide run look like a bedtime story (a non-German one).

I'm still pissed at how they handled Zora's plans in chapter 19 or whatever it is. Wasn't Xander's plan to kill the royals in the first skirmish to minimize casualties in the first place? Yet now when he can kill them and ONLY them, suddenly that's a bad idea? What the hell?

Edited April 10, 2016 by Thane

[Azure Sen]

On the subject of Silas, I find it worthy of note how, when it comes to Corrin, he and the Hoshidan siblings are in the same boat. "We've known each other for a relatively short period time when we all were younger and now that we've met again we can go back to being as we are as if nothing happened, even though you don't (initially?) remember us". All of them just act like the years that have passed since didn't matter at all for any of them or for Corrin when they most certainly did.

Not really? It's really easy to tell the difference just by how their supports play out. Ryoma and Hinoka, the two siblings who were old enough to remember Corrin, spend their supports trying to help Corrin adjust to his new life by getting to know him after years of separation and trying to introduce him to Hoshidan life. Silas literally goes right back when how they were when they were kids, calling Corrin his best friend with ease despite Corrin's reservations and offering to take Corrin to a list of places that he wanted to visit.

So uh, I just read Corrin and Anna's support and it was...interesting.

Anna: I tried scamming you, we cool?

Corrin: Sure.

Anna: You're way too kind for your own good. I like that in a man, but I still love you less than money. Let's get married!

Yeah, this support is pretty bad. But then again, both playable Annas were been poorly written.

I did notice that, actually. Sakura and Takumi didn't bother me as much, especially in the latter's case, but I'd be remiss if I never saw Ryoma and Hinoka as obsessive. Believe it or not, some of Hinoka's dialogue actually made me cringe more than Camilla's, and unlike her Nohrian counterpart, she a) has no reason for why she's so doting on Corrin and b) never shows the same amount of affection to her other younger siblings, and it shows in their supports. Ryoma's no better: he actively takes every opportunity to demonize Nohr so that Corrin can come back to Hoshido, outright lies about their bloodline, uses an innocent girl's life as a bargaining chip to get Corrin to come home and, when they refuse, attempts to kidnap them, all for a younger sibling they've barely known.

1( So...loving your younger sibling and wanting them to return home and then doting on them when they return home because you're so happy doesn't count as a good reason?

2( Demonizing the invading nation that killed his father and his step-mother and used his younger brother/sister as a trojan horse to kill the latter? Perish the thought!

3( As far as the narrative is concerned, Ryoma does not know that Corrin is not related to them on Birthright unless female Corrin marries him or Takumi or male Corrin marries Hinoka or Sakura, and he doesn't know they're not related on Conquest at all. He otherwise believes that Corrin is their half-sibling through Sumeragi and Mikoto, as do the other siblings.

4( Seriously, can we just not start this again? The situation is way more grey than people portray it and, more importantly, it's been discussed to death.

EDIT: 5( So...Ryoma and Hinoka's feelings about Corrin are somehow invalid because they didn't know him/her for very long?

Edited April 10, 2016 by AzureSen

[Thor Odinson]

Every time that argument pans out I think of "Notto disu shitto agen" like the pic Thane linked

So fucking done with it

[RedEyedDrake]

Granted, the very fact that the letter thing is limited to S-rank supports does, in fact, invalidate it as far as Ryoma knowing or not knowing anything is concerned. Unless there is some evidence that would imply that he did know even outside S-rank supports, that is. Does anything ever happen to imply something like this?

However, I think Ryoma is still deserving of criticism for what he did during chapter 12 of Conquest even if he didn't know about Corrin's true heritage. And that is because he is trying to extort something from Corrin by using a single person's life as a bargaining chip. This isn't him being a commander on a battlefield, this is him holding a hostage at gun point to get the other side to comply with his demands. Not to mention that this method of "negotiating" is exactly what Corrin takes a stand against in chapter 17 of Conquest.

Also, it isn't about Silas and the Hoshidan siblings' feelings being invalid but about how they try to sweep their time away from Corrin under the rug. Them not giving up hope on seeing him again is one thing but they shouldn't try to pretend like nothing happened.

[Thane]

However, I think Ryoma is still deserving of criticism for what he did during chapter 12 of Conquest even if he didn't know about Corrin's true heritage. And that is because he is trying to extort something from Corrin by using a single person's life as a bargaining chip. This isn't him being a commander on a battlefield, this is him holding a hostage at gun point to get the other side to comply with his demands. Not to mention that this method of "negotiating" is exactly what Corrin takes a stand against in chapter 17 of Conquest.

Alright, I guess it's unavoidable now. My jimmies are rustled.

Ryouma didn't hold a hostage. A princess of the enemy nation got sick, and he didn't see the need to help her out because, frankly, why would he? His nation was just attacked out of the blue by a power-hungry king and his lackeys who lack the spines to stand up to him. His mother died protecting the main character, just as his father did, yet the protagonist willingly goes back to a nation that doesn't give a shit about its own people. Not only that, but he took the Yatogami with him.

Neither Elise nor Corrin are two innocent little puppies being bullied by the big bad Ryouma; Corrin is an enemy general while Elise is an active participant in the war. Ryouma has everything to lose on letting them continue the way they have, so why on earth would he help her? I'm honestly starting to wonder if people get so worked up about this is because Elise is cute; would people have cared this much if it was any other Nohrian sibling who got sick?

As I mentioned earlier, Ryouma is also proven to be completely justified in his actions considering Corrin - and Elise - completely fuck Hoshido over in Conquest. I don't care how happy that ending tries to be, it's one of the most insulting, poorly written excuses for the end of a plot I have ever seen. A fuckton of Hoshidans died either directly or indirectly as a result of Corrin's actions, the two princes were killed and Nohr effectively conquered all of it, and now you celebrate Xander - who also willingly took part in the invasion - becoming the king. If Corrin had returned to Hoshido and maybe taken two seconds to think over their actions, then maybe they could've worked together and reached some sort of agreement or plan or anything.

Speaking of which, that makes me think: why don't people lash out against Corrin for risking Elise's life? Even though he stands to lose on the princess recovering, Ryouma offers them free passage provided Corrin goes with him, so why doesn't the goody two-shoes comply? Isn't this the person who is supposed to be far too good for, well, their own good? Why the sudden stubbornness?

And finally, can someone just give me a single reason for why Ryouma should help the enemy here? Do you think it would make Garon chill out? Would Elise retire from the war? Would Corrin make his murder spree a little less murderous? What would the point be in trying to help her here?