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Bad/Horrible support conversations!

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I dunno. It's good for Jakob, but it's weak for Azura since the only thing she really does is act as a sounding-board for Jakob.

Perhaps, but at least it establishes why he is the way he is, even if it doesn't excuse his behavior. I like when a character actually has a backstory that can help you understand their motivations even when you don't agree with them. And we get to know a little bit more about Azura's relationship with her mother, which I don't remember her being particularly forthright with, though I haven't seen all her supports yet. But yeah, she definitely has better supports, hence why I pair her with others despite it being one of his few decent ones. Mozu too.

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Yeah, Azama falls flat because he's played for laughs. I like Soren and Shinon better because I can appreciate them for what they are; they both have somewhat sympathetic backstories, but we're never expected to see it as a justification for their behaviour.

Off-topic I suppose, but what was Shinon's reason for being a dick?

I mean, I can understand why he might not have trusted Ike, but was there any reason he was a generally unpleasant person and a racist?

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Off-topic I suppose, but what was Shinon's reason for being a dick?

I mean, I can understand why he might not have trusted Ike, but was there any reason he was a generally unpleasant person and a racist?

His is hinted at more than outright stated, but his dislike of Ike stems from perceiving his promotion to leader as nepotism, he says that Daein doesn't care about social status, he's an alcoholic in the Japanese version and his support with Janaff hints at a reason for his racism.

Edited by Phillius

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I'm so glad someone else shares my sentiment. I really don't like this support. Seriously, the harassment isn't okay just because they're both girls. What's worse is that I've legitimately seen people say that they ship them together and it makes me cringe.

And whats wrong with people shipping two female characters together for fun? Nothing. Its the internet, and they're not real.

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I can say happily the supports in Fire emblem Fates are way better than the one in Radiant dawn (God, those were awful),

Uh, you'd be right about that, except for the Micaiah/Oliver A support. That's better than most of Fates.

I don't really hold the "C B A now let's get married!" supports against the individual conversations because it's constrained to have those happen in the S supports. So... yeah, a lot of S supports are bad but they have to be with the current format, and this won't change until this "everyone can marry everyone" bullcrap is gone. Yes, you could have every C-B-A support feel naturally romantic but that option is, somehow, even worse.

There actually is at least one instance of sorta romantic awkwardness, in the Effie/Arthur A support. I'm posting the link if you feel like checking it out. I thought it lead naturally into the S support.

http://serenesforest.net/wiki/index.php/Fates_Supports/Arthur_Effie

I personally always got the impression that Soleil was never actually Bi, it was more of something she was doing to try and have in common with her father because she never really got to know him, at least in the japanese version. It was more of a way to have something relate-able with her father rather than actual affection and preference to women. After reading her supports, I wish that was the path they went with because that would of made a more interesting and understandable character than the creepy stalker that we got. I have to ignore almost the entirety of her supports in order to like the character much like I had to do with Tharja regarding her supports with Noire.

Tbh, I don't think that sounds very understandable. I don't mean it doesn't sound understandable in a monstrous or reprehensible. I mean it doesn't seem very realistic. The idea that a girl goes around hitting on girls because she wants to feel a kinship with the dad she never got to know despite not being attracted to them seems strange. I certainly have known women who'll flirt with girls despite not being interested in em sexually, but it doesn't seem like they do it because it makes them feel like they have something in common with their dad. And those girls flirt with guys too. Maybe I'm wrong.

Off-topic I suppose, but what was Shinon's reason for being a dick?

I mean, I can understand why he might not have trusted Ike, but was there any reason he was a generally unpleasant person and a racist?

Tbh though, stories in general shouldn't necessarily have to give explanations why every single person who's a dick is a dick, especially when they have dozens of characters. IMO anyway. I understand that you are responding to someone who said Shinon had a reason for his behavior, so I'm not saying there's no reason for you to be asking this question.

Considering that laguz/beorc tensions seem widespread in tellius in general, the recruitable beorc seem a bit overdisposed towards friendliness with the laguz. The laguz PCs tend to be more suspicious of the beorc, or outright hate em, though most or all (Lethe, Reyson, etc) turn over a new leaf.

Edited by Sane Young Dog Man

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For the longest time I remember hearing nothing but people talking about Soleil/Ophelia and other supports of hers with females like they were ten times better than any she had with males. I was never interested enough to check, but it seems I should've known better; however much Treehouse tried to salvage her more controversial supports (and even then they're only 'meh' level now, nowhere near great), it doesn't seem to be able to make up for how terrible she is with the other girls and her own mother. Not to mention the fact that they gutted her male supports for no reason; I'm willing to bet none of them could possibly be as bad as that Ophelia one (and I can't believe people would ship that over some of her better supports, like Kiragi...or what used to be her S rank with Kiragi...). I find it sad that after all that whining others did over the Japanese Soleil controversy, I actually miss some of her better written Japanese supports over what we were ultimately given; I appreciate what they tried to do with Corrin, but I could care less about that one and wish they'd left it alone if it meant her other supports wouldn't have been sacrificed. I guess she was never going to be anything more than a disappointment no matter what. Depressing, since I liked her character design from day 1, only to be a badly done trope... :<

I'm also not a fan of most of Jakob's, but even though he's still mean to Felicia, I can appreciate Jakob/Felicia a little more than the others since there's a bit of familiarity between them that he lacks with other women, which makes me think that theirs is more realistic in that he'd be condescending but very willing to help her out with her maid skills. To the point that he considers any failure of hers a failure of his, and he won't give up on her till she achieves her dream of being a better maid. Doesn't excuse him still being a general jerk, but I found it to be more in character than his supports with most of the other women, who he lacks any familiarity reason to be so condescending to on the outset. That, and his non-jerkass supports were with people I preferred with others, so its the next best thing for me I guess.

And while I don't hate them perse, I do find Xander/Charlotte and Takumi/Oboro to be very overrated and overdone in general.

I'll probably have more when I find more...

I was checking to see if you were female, and I guess I was right. What do you know!

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And whats wrong with people shipping two female characters together for fun? Nothing. Its the internet, and they're not real.

I was under the impression that they were shipped together because their dads were. However, I must say that Soleil x Ophelia is one of the most disturbing supports I've read in the entire series however, since Ophelia is very clearly not interested and is even driven to tears in the B-support. At the very least, Soleil recognises that she messed up, but it shouldn't have gone that far to begin with.

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Most of Soleil's, especially Soleil/Ophelia and Soleil/her mom. This thread has already detailed why.

A lot of Jakob's, as been said also. Even his better ones, like Mozu and Azura, are weak because they don't really develop the other character or delve into them. Azura in particular is just a sounding board for him.

Saizo/Hinoka: "I don't trust you, so carry letters for me for three supports. Then we can marry."

Silas/Azura, Silas/Orochi, Silas/Hana, and Silas/Kagero: He's kind of a judgemental ass in these.
Corrin/Rhajat: The JPN version was good. This? This is not. Stalking is not good.
Corrin/Camilla: Better than the JPN version, but it still feels too much like her pressuring him into marriage.
Hinata/Oboro: Meaningless, inane banter for the first 3 supports, and the S is dangerously similar to Frederick/Cordelia.
There are other supports that are weak--like Kaden/Orochi or Ryoma/Camilla--but these are the only ones I'd say are actually bad for the characters involved.

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Off-topic I suppose, but what was Shinon's reason for being a dick?

I mean, I can understand why he might not have trusted Ike, but was there any reason he was a generally unpleasant person and a racist?

It's important to keep in mind that we see Shinon mostly from Ike's perspective, who Shinon hates. Otherwise he is usually interacting with Gatrie, where he plays the straight men towards his quirkiness or with Rolf where he acts pretty decent and seems to be the more emphatic for the kid's feelings then any of the other adults.

When it comes to Shinon and Soren, the games practice show don't tell. We see that Shinon considers the mercenary life to be unrewarding. We see that he loathes Ike. We see him mocking his inexperienced and we can see how pissed he gets when Greil actually puts Ike in charge. We see him joining Daein, defending his choice of employee towards the mercs by pointing out how social class doesn't matter in Daein and that people are valued for their actual skills and we see him later ranting at Ike about how he simply takes everything.

Personally I think I know why he feels the way he does, especially after his ending in Radiant Dawn clarified that Shinon is an utter ace, skilled in everything he tries. He is frustrated because he lives in a world where the fame and fortunate he gets is limited by his social class. He is extremely skilled but he just so happens to be born a commoner, so he can't advance in society. He is arrogant because he is better then just about anyone else and he is generally unpleasant because he is frustrated because that he is trapped at the bottom of the social ladder with no fault on his own.

And he hates Ike because he was going to be the leader of the mercenaries one day with no regard of his actual abilities. Soren even says in chapter 8 that everyone knew that this would happen eventually. Ike's skills were never a factor. If you have Titania fight Shinon, he admits that he actually respects her and didn't mind following her orders, even though their views are completely opposed to each other, probably because Titania has decades of experience under her belt which Shinon can respect. But Ike is just a kid who was only allowed on the battlefield a few weeks prior to Greil's death and yet he got the company handed to him despite having done nothing to earn.

But you know, that's all just my interpretation of what is shown in the games.

As for his racism, to me he never looked like he has anything beyond casual racism. Considering that he grew up as a commoner in a Beorc society, it's hardly surprising that he would pick up that kind of outlook.

Edited by BrightBow

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I was under the impression that they were shipped together because their dads were. However, I must say that Soleil x Ophelia is one of the most disturbing supports I've read in the entire series however, since Ophelia is very clearly not interested and is even driven to tears in the B-support. At the very least, Soleil recognises that she messed up, but it shouldn't have gone that far to begin with.

All this hate for soleil, and while she does have her problems as a character, I still love her and always will. Now to add her to my PVP team eventually, cause she deserves it, *pets the cute waif*

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Silas/Azura, Silas/Orochi, Silas/Hana, and Silas/Kagero: He's kind of a judgemental ass in these.

Silas is a judgemental jerk in his supports with Azura, Kagero, and Orochi too? Goodness does Silas have any good supports with women? I am seriously starting to wonder.

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Silas is a judgemental jerk in his supports with Azura, Kagero, and Orochi too? Goodness does Silas have any good supports with women? I am seriously starting to wonder.

Tbh I dont blame silas, a lot of those women are annoying.

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It's important to keep in mind that we see Shinon mostly from Ike's perspective, who Shinon hates. Otherwise he is usually interacting with Gatrie, where he plays the straight men towards his quirkiness or with Rolf where he acts pretty decent and seems to be the most emphatic for the kid's feelings.

When it comes to Shinon and Soren, the games practice show don't tell. We see that Shinon considers the mercenary life to be unrewarding. He see that he loathes Ike. We see him mocking his inexperienced and see how pissed he gets when Greil actually puts Ike in charge. We see him joining Daein, defending his choice of employee towards the mercs by pointing out how social class doesn't matter in Daein and that people are valued for their actual skills and we see him later ranting at Ike about how he simply takes everything.

Personally I think I know why he feels the way he does, especially after his ending in Radiant Dawn clarified that Shinon is an utter ace, skilled in everything he tries. He is frustrated because he lives in a world where the fame and fortunate he gets is limited by his social class. He is extremely skilled but he just so happens to be a commoner, so he can't advance in society. He is arrogant because he is better then just about anyone else and he is generally unpleasant because he is frustrated because that he is trapped at the bottom of the social ladder with no fault on his own.

And he hates Ike because he was going to be the leader of the mercenaries one day. Soren even says in chapter 8 that everyone knew that this would happen eventually. Ike was the son of Greil so he would become the leader should Greil die, regardless of his actual abilities. If you have Titania fight Shinon, he even admits that he respects her and didn't mind following her orders, even though their views are completely opposed to each other, probably because Titania and Shinon are far more experienced then anyone else from the mercenaries. But you know, that's all just my interpretation.

As for his racism, to me he never looked like he has anything beyond casual racism. Considering that he grew up as a commoner in a Beorc society, that would hardly be surprising.

All of this. I think Shinon is an arsehole, but I really like him as a character because he's well-developed and interesting.

Tbh I dont blame silas, a lot of those women are annoying.

Umm, how do you figure?

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All this hate for soleil, and while she does have her problems as a character, I still love her and always will. Now to add her to my PVP team eventually, cause she deserves it, *pets the cute waif*

Okay, even putting aside your comments, instead of acting this way and being passive-aggressive and confrontational, how about you add to the conversation by giving reasons as to why you personally think her supports are good. After all, this is a support quality thread.

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Silas is a judgemental jerk in his supports with Azura, Kagero, and Orochi too? Goodness does Silas have any good supports with women? I am seriously starting to wonder.

There's Beruka for starters.

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Tbh I dont blame silas, a lot of those women are annoying.

Um what? How in any way are those women annoying?

There's Beruka for starters.

Anyway it looks like Silas has a ok support with Mozu and his support with F!Corrin is good. I'll read the Beruka/Silas support later thanks for telling me. Speaking of supports I most certainly do not like Azama's support with Sakura. At least she tells him to shut up in the b support.

Edited by Frelia

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There's Beruka for starters.

IIRC his supports with Mozu and F!Corrin are ok? I've heard about Silas/Hana but I must admit I'm not up to date on the details of his other ones. Damn, he seems more of a disappointing character than I originally thought.

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Um what? How in any way are those women annoying?

Anyway it looks like Silas has a ok support with Mozu. And from what I have seen above Beruka. I'll read that support later thanks.

Orochi is just no. Kagero is okay, but she seems to be too weird imo. Azura is meh, just waifu bait and has horrible stats.

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I was checking to see if you were female, and I guess I was right. What do you know!

Haha what an arse, the second person to post in the thread is a male who complained about soleil. There are a fair number of other guys who were saying the support was dumb, but I'm too lazy to look through the whole thread.

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Okay, even putting aside your comments, instead of acting this way and being passive-aggressive and confrontational, how about you add to the conversation by giving reasons as to why you personally think her supports are good. After all, this is a support quality thread.

Hold on a second, let me put forth the effort I really dont want to put forth. hahaha~

what about her support with laslow? She was concerned about him genuinely? Amirite? Or amiwrong? Anyone?

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Fates suffers from the exact opposite problem that Awakening had. While Awakening had one-note characters who were properly fleshed out in the support conversations, Fates has interesting characters who suffer from a lack of character growth due to poor writing.

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IIRC his supports with Mozu and F!Corrin are ok? I've heard about Silas/Hana but I must admit I'm not up to date on the details of his other ones. Damn, he seems more of a disappointing character than I originally thought.

Could think of a few more good supports. Rinkah's was pretty funny and Oboro was kind of touching. I've seen someone list Effie's as a bad one but I liked it.

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I was checking to see if you were female, and I guess I was right. What do you know!

All this hate for soleil, and while she does have her problems as a character, I still love her and always will. Now to add her to my PVP team eventually, cause she deserves it, *pets the cute waif*

Hold on a second, let me put forth the effort I really dont want to put forth. hahaha~

what about her support with laslow? She was concerned about him genuinely? Amirite? Or amiwrong? Anyone?

psa: don't post like this, other people of the thread.

carry on

Edited by Integrity

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Hold on a second, let me put forth the effort I really dont want to put forth. hahaha~

what about her support with laslow? She was concerned about him genuinely? Amirite? Or amiwrong? Anyone?

That one's good, but I counter with her support with Ophelia in which Ophelia is driven to tears by Soleil's harassment

C Support

Ophelia: Tap...tap...tap come the demon's footfalls. Steadily she advances... Inexorably nearer with every breath... My last chance to flee has fled. The demon comes to take me...

Soleil: Haha, there you are!

Ophelia: Aieeeee!

Soleil: Why are you hiding? I've been looking high and low for you! Come on, let's go get some tea! I want to show you my favorite café. It's the perfect place to sit and talk for hours. Just you...and me.

Ophelia: Soleil...why must you always chase me around?

Soleil: Isn't it obvious? Because I'm interested in you! You and me were destined to be together! Once you finally realize it, we'll be a partnership for the ages.

Ophelia: Please...just leave me be...

Soleil: Ahaha... I'm not letting you go that easy, my cute little butterfly! Relax already! We have so much to talk about that I can't wait to get started. Heheh...ooooooh, this is gonna be good!

Ophelia: N-nooooooooo!

B Support

Ophelia: Deep breaths, Ophelia...you can do this...

Soleil: Ahaha. Found you again! You can never hide from me for long!

Ophelia: Clearly not... Your pursuit is relentless indeed.

Soleil: That's right. And now that I've caught you, I'll finally get my chance to talk. Just the two of us...nobody else...for hours and hours...

Ophelia: Not today! For I am no longer a fragile butterfly, powerless before your onslaught. I saw this moment coming and prepared a special spell for the occasion! With a flick of the wrist...and a click of the tongue... Hah!

Soleil: What the—?!

(Soleil leaves)

Ophelia: How did I get over here? What's wrong with my voice? What happened to me?!

Soleil: Excellent. The spell worked perfectly.

Ophelia: Holy— That's me! I'm standing in front of myself! What's going on here?!

Soleil: Teeheehee. Surprised, Soleil? It's a bit of magic I found in an old grimoire...a body-switching spell. Now I inhabit your body, and you mine.

Ophelia: Huh! Sure enough. I'm...I'm you!

Soleil: Even you would lose interest in chasing your own body. Victory is mine! Now, let us discuss the terms for me dismissing the spell...

Ophelia: Heh...heeheehee...I'm in your body... It's too cute! This is too amazing!

Soleil: Hm...?

Ophelia: Now I don't need to chase you—I AM you! I've gotta go find a private place with a mirror! Heeheeheehee!

(Ophelia leaves)

Soleil: WHAT?! S-Soleil! Wait! Let's talk this over!

(Ophelia leaves)

Ophelia: Hey! It's Odin and my dad! Check it out, Dad! I turned into Ophelia!

(Ophelia leaves)

Soleil: Aaaaaaaaahhhhhhh! Don't you dare talk to my father while you're in my body! This is becoming a nightmare... I don't have any choice left. A click of the tongue...a flick of the wrist...HAH!

Soleil: Heeheehuh? Aw, man. I knew it was too good to last...

Ophelia: *sigh*...

Soleil: Ophelia? Did you end the spell already? I was just getting warmed up!

Ophelia: Soleil, you dunderhead!

Soleil: What did I do?!

Ophelia: I thought surely that spell would make you see the error of your ways. My plan was to have you swear not to chase me as a condition for restoring you. THEN maybe we could be normal friends!

Soleil: Uh...

Ophelia: But no...you'll never change, I suppose. You'll never listen to my pleas... You'll always hound me, try as I might to hide. W-well, see if I care! *sniff* *sob*

(Ophelia leaves)

Soleil: O-Ophelia... ...I think I messed up somewhere.

A Support

Soleil: Ophelia... Um...I wanted to apologize. I'm really sorry for how I acted. I kept doing what you told me not to. I should have listened to you.

Ophelia: ...

Soleil: I really like you, Ophelia. I think you're supercool. You're confident in yourself, and you never flinch or falter in battle. That's why I wanted to sit down and talk with you. That's all I wanted, really... But I was so nervous, all my invitations came out wrong. I'm really sorry. I promise I won't do that to you again. So please...if it's all right with you, I still want to be your friend.

Ophelia: ...

Soleil: I...guess it's not all right. OK.

Ophelia: My father told me about your father.

Soleil: Huh?

Ophelia: Laslow has fought side by side with my father many times. My father called him a steadfast comrade- in-arms. And I always felt...that maybe one day, you and I would be the same way. I believed the stars had aligned to bind our fates together.

Soleil: Aw, Ophelia...

Ophelia: I looked forward to meeting you even before I came to this world. But when at last we did meet...you were such an embarrassment... Not at all like the comrade-in-arms that I had imagined you to be.

Soleil: Oh. I'm...I'm sorry...

Ophelia: No... I blame myself. I made you out to be something you're not. You only ever saw me as I am... But when I looked at you, I compared you to the ideal I had in my mind. When I think back, you never said you wanted anything more from me than to talk. I was the one who ran from you, refusing to listen to what you were saying. So if anyone should apologize, it's me.

Soleil: I dunno...maybe I won't be the kind of partner you had in mind... But I'd love to get closer to you anyway!

Ophelia: But don't you see? We already are closer than we realized. Real friends don't need to work so hard to get each other's approval. I want that to be us: easy and comfortable with one another.

Soleil: Really?! That would be wonderful... I hope you can learn to like me just the way I am.

Ophelia: I'm confident that I will. The stars wouldn't lie, would they? I feel their twinkling in my deepest self and know, with absolute certainty... great things will come of us.

Soleil: Wow...that's really cool.

Ophelia: Hmhmhmhm...what else would one expect from the chosen maiden? Now then, shall we go?

Soleil: Go where?

Ophelia: To that tea shop you were going on about. We'll sit down, just the two of us, and have a nice, long chat.

Soleil: Ophelia! Are you for real? Somebody— pinch me! This is why I love you!

Ophelia: Hmhmhm...for the first time, I'm happy to hear you say that.

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