An observation and clarification on the 'Half for Next Attack' weapons.

[Zsword]

Let me start off by saying that, if this information has already been discussed before, then I'm sorry to be covering it again, I tried a search just in case and it came up empty so here we are.

To the point of this topic, there are a number of weapons in fates that say they 'Half your *attack* stat for the next attack.' and would like to mention some of the nuances of this little mechanic.

If you have no idea what I'm talking about, it can be found on the A rank Tome and Scrolls 'Ginnungagap', 'Snake Spirit', and 'Dragon Spirit', as well as all three of the Melee S rank weapons: The 'Hagakure Blade', 'Whaterwheel', and 'Aurgelmir'. It's also on the A rank physical ranged weapons 'Soldier's Knife' and 'Crescent bow', as the off set to their 'Brave' effect.

Talking to some other people who dismiss these weapons just from the 'Half' effect alone got me curious to try and use a couple of them, and pay more attention to the effects for the handful of instances of when the enemy uses them, and discovered a nuance that makes these weapons a little more appealing.

The misconception that people get from the description is that when you use this weapon, you have full strength on your first attack (read, combat) and keep that halved attack until you attack with a different weapon. This does line up with the description but that's not how it works in practice... entirely. First of all, yes, switching weapons and attacking will negate the halved attack, that works as expected. The oddity is that if you don't switch weapons and enter a round of combat with the halved stat, you'll no longer have your stat halved when you exit combat, essentially meaning you're 'alternating' between halved and not as you keep the weapon equipped. It's also worth mentioning that any combat instance will trigger this toggle, even if you don't attack. So if someone attacks you from out of range and it triggers the combat scene, then you're halved state will swap. Despite having no 'combat state', Lilith will trigger this as well, but the Ballista, Orb Launcher, and Fire Orb do not.

Also if you're curious about how the Halved effect stacks with the various sources of 'Weakened', such as Hidden Weapons, Draconic Curse, and Seal skills, know that they DO stack, and that the stat is halved, THEN reduced by weakened. EX: You have 20 strength and are hit with a steel shuriken while wielding Hagakure, your effective strength after the combat is (20/2)-3, which is 7. It would stand to reason that Rally is added as a flat +4 in a similar matter, but I haven't experimented with it direct myself, or how it interacts with Pair up bonuses, Tonics, or flat +stat skills. +/- Damage skills work after the halving, as those aren't based on strength or mag, they're just flat damage bonuses/penalties.

If anyone else has any other information on the matter feel free to throw it out there, I'm but one man and I know my method isn't the most scientific, and there is always a margin of error that I may of overlooked something, especially with the LARGE amount of nuances that Fates has in it's damage system.

[Quintessence]

I haven't heard of this misconception you say, though. These weapons clearly say ingame that halves str/mag until unit attacks, and testing it, it works both at player and enemy phase with whatecver weapon you use.

The point I don't know clearly is about stat reduction. As far as I know, if a unit has Draconic Hex and Seal (Stat), the unit gets -4 to every stat and -6 (Stat), I sort of need confirmation on this.

[joshcja]

I haven't heard of this misconception you say, though. These weapons clearly say ingame that halves str/mag until unit attacks, and testing it, it works both at player and enemy phase with whatecver weapon you use.

The point I don't know clearly is about stat reduction. As far as I know, if a unit has Draconic Hex and Seal (Stat), the unit gets -4 to every stat and -6 (Stat), I sort of need confirmation on this.

They stack (unless hex is eating the seal slot). Universal rule is that debuffs/buffs stack unless they have the same name on the stat scrollover (ignoring inevitable end) with exceptions on the innate rally's.

I've never tested if seals stack with hex in the same round of combat though, I know mischievous/poison/wound/daggers/seal can all stack on the same round but I don't know if hex eats the seal proc trigger as it's really only testable in rev where...I don't care, or in postgame where 2rko's are ass. I guess a dm!mu in conquest could test off Odins seal str but that's just overkill so I've never gone past vantage with MU on the swordy tree.

Edit: Yeah they eat the same slot, rip seal animation lied to me.

Edited March 29, 2016 by joshcja

[JasonsOrigin]

Concerning Draconic Hex and the Seal skills, the seal effect will take priority over the stat that would have been subtracted by 4 from Draconic Hex.

Example scenario: With Draconic Hex, Seal Defense, Seal Speed equipped the stat reduction would look like this:

Str: -4

Mag: -4

Skill: -4

Spd: -6

Lck: -4

Def: -6

Res: -4

I just tried it out with Corrin with the results in front of me. He was equipped with Draconic Hex and Seal Strength and the enemy samurai's stats dropped like so:

Str: 9-6 = 3

Mag: 0

Skill: 11-4 = 7

Spd: 16-4 = 12

Lck: 7-4 = 3

Def: 6-4 = 2

Res: 7-4 = 3

Edited March 29, 2016 by JasonsOrigin

[Zsword]

Indeed, Shurikens, Seals, and Hex all inflict the same 'weakened' debuff of deferring severities, which heals at one per turn, with the largest instance of weakened having the greatest priority. IE: Any Seal will override it's stat over hex, Chakram will override Hex on the four stats it affects, and etc. Silver weapon debuff is an oddity in that regard though, despite still being simply called 'weakened' as it can stack infinitely, and I have no idea how it interacts with the other weakened affects.

[Thor Odinson]

Also something I noticed while doing postgame money shit is

When the unit is the support in attack stance, and have the str half debuff, they will no longer be debuffed after you exit attack stance

I usually have Ryoma oneshot those paired up MoA because Ryoma can oneshot with hakagure, then I move someone else and range the swordmaster next to Ryoma, and the little purple icon will be gone from Ryoma after. Similar to Silvers, I don't think the debuff applies back if you attack stance with him more, either---i'll go double check right now, though.

Edit: Can confirm attack stance Hakagure does not re-trigger the half str

Edited March 29, 2016 by Thor Odinson

[Sire]

I'm not sure about the misconception, as I understood that these weapons will alternative between using full stats and half stats if one decides to use the same weapon.

...And now I'm stuck crunching numbers instead of asking someone else to do so (or find one already done). I should be sleeping...

[spoiler=S Rank Weapon Details]

Name Rank Mt Hit Crit Avoid Rng Worth Description

Aurgelmir S 22 75 15 0 1 0 After the battle, Strength is halved for the next attack

Iron Axe D 8 70 0 0 1 1000 Standard issue axe

Iron Axe +4 D 16 76 3 0 1 1000 Standard issue axe

Iron Axe +7 D 19 90 15 0 1 1000 Standard issue axe

Berserker STR = 40 (20 when halved)

22+40, 22+20 = 104 Aurgelmir

8+40, 8+40 = 96 Iron Axe

16+40, 16+40 = 112 Iron Axe +4

19+40, 19+40 = 118 Iron Axe +7

Verdict - Aurgelmir is a crap weapon if min maxing. More so because Berserkers (who have an "S" Rank in Axes), rely on their immense STR, losing out on 20 STR every other round. I guess this weapon depends on how much you value its Critical rate for baseline, but I think there are other weapons that do the job better.

Name Rank Mt Hit Crit Avoid Rng Worth Description

Waterwheel S 19 85 0 0 1 0 Critical Evade +20, Defence and Resistance +5; after the battle, Strength is halved for the next attack

Iron Naginata D 6 80 0 0 1 1000 –

Iron Naginata +4 D 14 89 3 0 1 1000 –

Iron Naginata +7 D 17 100 15 0 1 1000 –

Guard Naginata C 5 75 0 -10 1 2700 Defence and Resistance +5

Guard Naginata +4 C 13 84 3 -10 1 2700 Defence and Resistance +5

Guard Naginata +7 C 16 95 15 -10 1 2700 Defence and Resistance +5

Spear Master STR = 34 (17 when halved)

19+34, 19+17 = 89 Waterwheel

6+34, 6+34 = 80 Iron Naginata

14+34, 14+34 = 96 Iron Naginata +4

17+34, 17+34 = 102 Iron Naginata +7

5+34, 5+34 = 78 Guard Naginata

13+34, 13+34 = 94 Guard Naginata +4

16+34, 16+34 = 100 Guard Naginata +7

Verdict - Waterwheel has its uses, especially if you want to take advantage of the Critical Evade and the fact that forging up a Guard Naginata will be a long journey indeed...

Name Rank Mt Hit Crit Avoid Rng Worth Description

Hagakure Blade S 18 95 0 20 1 0 After the battle, Strength is halved for the next attack

Iron Katana D 6 90 0 0 1 1000 –

Iron Katana +4 D 14 99 3 0 1 1000 –

Iron Katana +7 D 17 110 15 0 1 1000 –

Sunrise Katana D 3 85 0 20 1 0 –

Sunrise Katana +4 D 11 94 3 20 1 0 –

Sunrise Katana +7 D 14 105 15 20 1 0 –

Swordmaster STR = 30 (15 when halved)

18+30, 18+15 = 81 Hagakure Blade

6+30, 6+30 = 72 Iron Katana

14+30, 14+30 = 88 Iron Katana +4

17+30, 17+30 = 94 Iron Katana +7

3+30, 3+30 = 66 Sunrise Katana

11+30,11+30 = 82 Sunrise Katana +4

14+30, 14+30 = 88 Sunrise Katana +7

Verdict - The Hagakure Blade is probably the best out of them all, especially when using it over the Sunrise Katana (as forging that will also take a long while).

Forge Notes (Weapon can Crit)

+4 = 8 MT, 9 HIT, 3 CRIT

+7 = 11 MT, 20 HIT, 15 CRIT

That's all for now. Someone else can do the other weapons, but I doubt they will be worth it compared to the alternatives.

[Aggro Incarnate]

Also something I noticed while doing postgame money shit is

When the unit is the support in attack stance, and have the str half debuff, they will no longer be debuffed after you exit attack stance

I usually have Ryoma oneshot those paired up MoA because Ryoma can oneshot with hakagure, then I move someone else and range the swordmaster next to Ryoma, and the little purple icon will be gone from Ryoma after. Similar to Silvers, I don't think the debuff applies back if you attack stance with him more, either---i'll go double check right now, though.

Edit: Can confirm attack stance Hakagure does not re-trigger the half str

Yes, this is the case for all half-STR/MAG after use weapons in Tag Team. It's quite a neat touch, and makes them much more viable for use.

Edited March 29, 2016 by Aggro Incarnate

[Zsword]

The touch on you can use an attack stance to negate the Halving without risk of re-enacting it is really cool, I actually didn't think attack stance would consume an already halved stat, as I knew it didn't trigger it, that's good to know.

Another nuance with attack stance is partners in attack stance still trigger brave affects, even on the enemy phase, for you people who really wanna abuse Snake Spirit or Lightning. (This is especially doubled with Snake spirit as it's a Brave Halving weapon)

Also thank you for the calcs on comparing some relevant forged equivelants to the S ranks, I've always been of the opinion the Aurgel is subpar as is for the reasons state, and that only makes it worse. I'd be curious to see those calcs also compared to Killer Axes or Iron Clubs just for arguments sake, but the consensus is already there: 'really only if you wanna be a dedicated pocket berserker' or so.

Another thing to note is, as far as the practical applications of min maxing this far, people can just negate your forges if they fight your team, so if you want to go for raw power for your NPCs, people can't just 'turn off' your S rank melees like they could your +7 weapon that took, 128 copies to make.