Criticizing Ryoma - What is acceptable in War or perhaps not

[Time the Crestfallen]

Even if Kamui is the only one who can use it, why would you want them using it in the first place? One less weapon pointing at your countrymen is one less weapon pointing at your countrymen. Plus, isn't it considered to be a Hoshidan sacred sword as well because they'd certainly want it back in that case.

No problem either. You will simply have an enemy not wielding a powerful weapon against you.

EDIT: Hah, ninja'd

Well if we're exploring options to take it off Kamui, what are his options? If he can beat Kamui and take it, why not take Kamui with him? The only other option I can think of is to kill them, which he definitely isn't going to do (at that point anyway).

[Sunwoo]

Well if we're exploring options to take it off Kamui, what are his options? If he can beat Kamui and take it, why not take Kamui with him? The only other option I can think of is to kill them, which he definitely isn't going to do (at that point anyway).

Well yeah, taking Kamui back with him is also a good option. It removes one of Nohr's generals from the battlefield. Kamui won't be fighting against them anymore, and it might force the few Nohrians who give a fuck about Kamui (basically everyone except for Garon, Iago, and Ganz) to maybe negotiate.

All in all, taking out Kamui and the Yatogami is a good idea no matter how you look at it.

[Time the Crestfallen]

Well yeah, taking Kamui back with him is also a good option. It removes one of Nohr's generals from the battlefield. Kamui won't be fighting against them anymore, and it might force the few Nohrians who give a fuck about Kamui (basically everyone except for Garon, Iago, and Ganz) to maybe negotiate.

All in all, taking out Kamui and the Yatogami is a good idea no matter how you look at it.

Except that the only one who's actually in a position to negotiate hates a raging hate-boner for Kamui, so he probably wouldn't care. There's also the fact that Tsubaki x Azura's supports has Tsubaki protecting Azura from assassination during the Birthright campaign. So if that's what's happening to Azura, imagine how bad Kamui, who as far as they know is an accomplice to Mikoto's assassination, the devastation of the township as well as loss of civilian life, but also willingly sided with Nohr and at this point attacked Hinoka at the Sage's Tower. Takumi is also currently being possessed by Anankos, which is fueling his hate-boner for Kamui and slowly driving him insane. They honestly wouldn't last a week.

[Sunwoo]

Except that the only one who's actually in a position to negotiate hates a raging hate-boner for Kamui, so he probably wouldn't care. There's also the fact that Tsubaki x Azura's supports has Tsubaki protecting Azura from assassination during the Birthright campaign. So if that's what's happening to Azura, imagine how bad Kamui, who as far as they know is an accomplice to Mikoto's assassination, the devastation of the township as well as loss of civilian life, but also willingly sided with Nohr and at this point attacked Hinoka at the Sage's Tower. Takumi is also currently being possessed by Anankos, which is fueling his hate-boner for Kamui and slowly driving him insane. They honestly wouldn't last a week.

Yeah but at least this awful excuse of a story would be over if Kamui's dead!

[Red Lilies]

One, Ryouma isn't acting inhumanely. People who keep on crying about what a besmirch on his moral character this is have so far not presented any better and equally intelligent alternatives for what he could have done instead. Second, Iago is the one who tipped off Ryouma to Kamui's whereabouts. Emotional attachment to Kamui or not, Kamui is at this point an enemy general who needs to be taken out. If you know where an enemy general is going to be and you're certain you can take them out, then why the hell would you not go stop that enemy general? This isn't just about Ryouma having an emotional investment to Kamui. THIS IS WAR. If Ryouma feels he can take out Kamui and his army, then going after them is the SMART thing to do since Kamui is a war general leading around troops.

Ok, but that isn't what Ryoma asks at all. He just askes for Corrin. He literally is fine for Corrin's army, made up with other generals of Nohr to keep running around as long as he gets Corrin. That doesn't feel smart. As

for alternatives:

1. Offer to take Elise as a prisoner and treat her. Now he has a captive he knows Corrin cares about. Political hostages are useful. He also has no reason to believe King Garon might not consider chatting once he has his daughter (we know as the audience he won't but there is no reason for Ryoma to think that a father wouldn't value a blood child. Further he knows the other Nohr siblings care about each other. Now he's got a prisoner to use against Xander, Camilla, Leo - all generals for Nohr)

2. Discuss what Corrin WOULD be willing to trade for the medicine. Which he doesn't. He offers an ultimatum and then attacks.

3. Set up an ambush and take out Corrin before the army knows Ryoma is there - this is actually a much more tactical move if taking out an enemy general is the goal. But it's not. Getting Corrin is the goal. This kinda makes his move feel hollow. Either he wanted to take out Corrin and lacked the intelligence to do it properly, or he felt the need to confront Corrin and talk or he believe you should face your opponent openly. If it was the first, well that makes him not very good at his job. If it was the second, why didn't he talk to Corrin other than offering the ultimatum and then attacking without discussing other options. If it was the last, well he fails to continue to be honorable by using emotional blackmail.

Active or not, Elise is still with the enemy. People get sick all the time, even soldiers. Even in real life. Do you expect the enemy to just take a time out because one soldier on their opposing side is sick? And if this whole "Elise wasn't on the battlefield so this isn't an issue" thing applies, how come no one gives a fuck about Takumi being sick in chapter 16 and Iago being an asshole? Is it because Iago is an asshole already and Kamui wasn't stupid enough to tell HIM that Takumi was sick? Or is it because Takumi isn't "cute widdle Elise"? Because I wonder.

Well, THAT one is on Kamui and not Ryouma. Because Kamui's the one who said "no". Ryouma gave Kamui more of a negotiation attempt than Kamui honestly deserved. Kamui refused. Therefore, even if Elise could've been treated as a prisoner of war of Hoshido, Kamui's the one who said no and therefore if this is even anyone's responsibility it's on Kamui. Not Ryouma.

Do people not call out Iago for being an asshole due to his treatment of Takumi? I was unaware people thought highly of him. :P

Since it has been brought up, yes I do judge Iago for being an asshole. But the situation was also different. Corrin didn't ask to negotiate and then was attacked while trying to discuss terms.

I think the statement about it being more of an negotiation attempt that Corrin honestly deserved is a tough one to argue against because it is fundamentally an opinion. I disagree, because there were other options but Ryoma only wanted one outcome - Corrin to leave with him. When Corrin said no, Ryoma said he'd forced him to fight and then come with him. Ryoma doesn't even offer the chance for Elise to be a prisoner of war, so it's not on Corrin. Ryoma also attacked before Corrin finished speaking, so never got to offer any alternatives. All in all it doesn't feel like it's on Corrin nor does it feel like Ryoma was acting rationally.

Except no matter what Ryouma does it's NOT going to affect how Nohr treats them at all? With villains as comically evil and 1-dimensional as Garon, Iago, and Ganz, they're not going to care that a Hoshidan did them this one favor where they helped out the princess. What Nohr wants to do with the Hoshidan royals if they did capture them is war is going to be done to them WITHOUT reflecting on anything the Hoshidans did to help them or not.

Besides, I wouldn't call how Garon treated Kamui "well".

We're arguing over whether or not Ryoma is aware of Nohr's villians being "comically evil and one dimensional". I suppose you're right. I shouldn't call any character out on being flawed if I can, as a viewer, know objectively the other side is MORE flawed, even if the in game characters lack this extra knowledge.

In game cannon, there is no evidence Nohr will treat captive royals poor, but evidence they'll treat them with at minimum (going off Corrin): Keeping them alive, keeping them healthy and lack of torture.

I already responded to most of this in point one. But a few more points to make. One, Kamui DID fight against Hoshido at this point. Against both Takumi and Hinoka and their armies in chapters 10 and 11. It may not be IN Hoshido, but Kamui did fight the Hoshidan army. Ryouma going after Kamui is not a personal agenda. Taking out Kamui, A WAR GENERAL, if he feels capable of doing so is a strategic move. You're so hung up on "oh Ryouma MUST be chasing after Kamui because of EMOTIONAL STUFF" that you don't even look like you're trying to see how it could make sense in a practical way.

Fair. Corrin has fought against Hoshido. But they can't be the only general doing so, and they are unlikely to be the one currently most threatening Hoshido.

However, I don't think I'm failing to address the practical side of it. Ryoma marching into enemy terriory after a single general who is not currently any of the generally fighting on the border or in Hoshido does seem less than practical in my opinion. If Corrin had shown to be a significant threat by this point against Hoshido, I may by it as a completely strategic move. But they haven't. So far they've "Managed not to get killed at the port" and "managed to take out Hinoka and gang without killing them". I struggle to believe Corrin is the biggest threat to Hoshido at this time, yet Ryoma still goes after them. He also refuses to talk to Corrin and demands Corrin leave with him and then attacks when Corrin asks to talk instead. Seems emotional to me. But I'll accept that that is an opinion and is unlikely to get resolved.

[Red Lilies]

I'm clearly too slow to respond to everyone fast enough. I'll just forever be behind....

Besides, why do people complain about the conflict being so black and white and wish that the conflict would be more morally ambiguous, but also complain when Ryoma also does something morally ambiguous (even though what he does is only illegal by the standards of the real world). It's called having your cake and eating it to.

I'm not complaining Ryoma was doing something morally ambiguous. That's my point. He is doing something morally ambigous. Which I do think, however, we can call him on. My complain is thus: All the other characters get called on their actions by players, yet for some reason when anyone suggests Ryoma did something morally ambigous he get defended as being logical and pragmatic. This makes me frustrated as I struggle to see the choice as logical and it is morally ambiguous so I'd like to be able to say "hey he did this thing that wasn't cool" without people saying "nah, it was totally fair for him to do that"

I'm fine with him doing morally ambiguous things. But we should be allowed to call him on it as we do other characters (and I'll maintain I think it was a poor decision on his part but that's a separate matter from the moral part)

What? Look at how Garon murdered Sumeragi. An ambush in a peace meeting. Then the explosion that killed Mikoto and thousands of civilians.

Historically, why would any leader that saw these actions have any reason to believe said country (Nohr) will have (or has) any "goodwill" during the actual war for his population (they didn't), his siblings and himself? No one would trust anyone from said country.

Ryoma was defeated and could be imprisoned in chapter 25, but Garon ordered him killed anyway.

Also, both countries are pretty much isolated from each other, how does Ryoma know if Nohr is treating prisoners of high birth well? From which countries? Rinka is the daughter of the Fire Tribe chieftain and Garon didn't care. Are you talking about Felicia and Flora? Ryoma has no way of knowing that two random maids are daughters of a chieftain.

When Kaze and Rinka returned, they must have reported that they were gonna be executed (and that others were). The precedent simply isn't there for Ryoma.

Considering all this, Ryoma treated his potential prisoners far better than the enemy treated his. So this is a moot point.

But he's seen that multiple Nohr royals acted to save both Kaze and Rinka. He's seen Corrin is alive and healthy. He has reason to believe that Nohr might treat his family well.

But yes, he does have reason to think otherwise as well. I guess it comes down to whether or not he is treating the enemy as he hopes his family would be treated (and there is at least some evidence is possible) or he's given up on the country as a whole.

Corn was negotiating what? What else could he offer Ryoma? I want to see what this could possibly be.

Ryoma offered an amazing deal for him: come back to your birth family, we will disregard your past choice, your soldiers will live and we won't even imprison Elise. Corn refused, so then they were simply two enemy armies that met each other. This was not an ultimatum, it was the only two decisions that could've been made.

Ryoma treating Elise first and then offering Corn a deal is non-sense. They were in enemy territory. How long would Elise take to recover? Why risk getting surrounded by the enemy? Specially since Iago was the one that tipped Ryoma off? If Corn wouldn't suffer by fighting Ryoma, then Iago would simply attack him.

Options: Hand Elise over as a prisoner for treatment. Offer to give Yato back. Offer money to supply his troops. Offer Ryoma free passage back to Hoshido, given he was deep in enemy territory.

About Ryoma acting emotionally, as if that is a problem and never happened to other leaders during History. Sometimes it bore fruits, sometimes it didn't. If he got Corn back that would have been a massive blow on Nohr.

And his move wasn't that illogical. In the previous chapter Corn spared Hinoka, which proved to Ryoma that Corn could still be saved. He also had the Yato. Getting the sword back is a practical and logical motive, getting Corn back an emotional one.

Not sure how losing Corrin would be a massive blow to Nohr since the leaders of country actively try to kill him. They clearly had eggs in other baskets. I will concede the sword. I had forgotten Yato and the practicality removing it from the field would be.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Red Lilies

[Lanko]

Ok, but that isn't what Ryoma asks at all. He just askes for Corrin. He literally is fine for Corrin's army, made up with other generals of Nohr to keep running around as long as he gets Corrin. That doesn't feel smart. As

for alternatives:

1. Offer to take Elise as a prisoner and treat her. Now he has a captive he knows Corrin cares about. Political hostages are useful. He also has no reason to believe King Garon might not consider chatting once he has his daughter (we know as the audience he won't but there is no reason for Ryoma to think that a father wouldn't value a blood child. Further he knows the other Nohr siblings care about each other. Now he's got a prisoner to use against Xander, Camilla, Leo - all generals for Nohr)

2. Discuss what Corrin WOULD be willing to trade for the medicine. Which he doesn't. He offers an ultimatum and then attacks.

3. Set up an ambush and take out Corrin before the army knows Ryoma is there - this is actually a much more tactical move if taking out an enemy general is the goal. But it's not. Getting Corrin is the goal. This kinda makes his move feel hollow. Either he wanted to take out Corrin and lacked the intelligence to do it properly, or he felt the need to confront Corrin and talk or he believe you should face your opponent openly. If it was the first, well that makes him not very good at his job. If it was the second, why didn't he talk to Corrin other than offering the ultimatum and then attacking without discussing other options. If it was the last, well he fails to continue to be honorable by using emotional blackmail.

1) If Corn, our righteous, just and peaceful character didn't want to trade himself for Elise's treatment, why would he accept to handle a sick Elise over the enemy general for that?

You are complaining that Ryoma acted dishonorably against Elise, but now you say you wanted him to take her as a war prisoner when Ryoma said he would let her (an underage, sick combatant) go free if only Corn came back. That sounded very honorable, actually.

Don't forget the Nohrian siblings also care about Corn, and will even more after they discover he had to surrender himself for Elise's sake.

2) Again, what Corn could possibly offer Ryoma other than himself? What are these other options everyone keep vaguely talking about that Corn has?

Edited April 12, 2016 by Lanko

[Time the Crestfallen]

I'm clearly too slow to respond to everyone fast enough. I'll just forever be behind....

I'm not complaining Ryoma was doing something morally ambiguous. That's my point. He is doing something morally ambigous. Which I do think, however, we can call him on. My complain is thus: All the other characters get called on their actions by players, yet for some reason when anyone suggests Ryoma did something morally ambigous he get defended as being logical and pragmatic. This makes me frustrated as I struggle to see the choice as logical and it is morally ambiguous so I'd like to be able to say "hey he did this thing that wasn't cool" without people saying "nah, it was totally fair for him to do that"

I'm fine with him doing morally ambiguous things. But we should be allowed to call him on it as we do other characters (and I'll maintain I think it was a poor decision on his part but that's a separate matter from the moral part)

Because Ryoma's actions are a bit more justifiable than pretty much everyone else's actions. Like I said, Ryoma isn't responsible for Elise's health unless she is under his power, something that can only happen if she surrenders herself to his care or if the entire group surrenders. Asking for Corrin to surrender first is quite reasonable compared to say, Xander's insistence on following the orders of a certified puppy-kicker who makes it quite clear that he plans on killing Corrin nor does he stand up to Hans and Iago for executing surrendering soldiers despite supposedly being 'principled' or Azura and Corrin deciding that the only way to defeat Garon is to let him conquer Hoshido and sit on the throne, knowing fully that this will not only bring untold devastation to Hoshido and that Garon, Hans and Iago are going to kick all the puppies while doing so, but making that plan whilst not even considering any other solutions.

[Azure Sen]

As

for alternatives:

1. Offer to take Elise as a prisoner and treat her. Now he has a captive he knows Corrin cares about. Political hostages are useful. He also has no reason to believe King Garon might not consider chatting once he has his daughter (we know as the audience he won't but there is no reason for Ryoma to think that a father wouldn't value a blood child. Further he knows the other Nohr siblings care about each other. Now he's got a prisoner to use against Xander, Camilla, Leo - all generals for Nohr)

And why would Corrin willingly give Elise up as a hostage with no guarantee she would be returned?

2. Discuss what Corrin WOULD be willing to trade for the medicine. Which he doesn't. He offers an ultimatum and then attacks.

Ryoma only wants one thing in exchange and because Corrin has no power to give him the other things he might ask for.

I think the statement about it being more of an negotiation attempt that Corrin honestly deserved is a tough one to argue against because it is fundamentally an opinion. I disagree, because there were other options but Ryoma only wanted one outcome - Corrin to leave with him. When Corrin said no, Ryoma said he'd forced him to fight and then come with him. Ryoma doesn't even offer the chance for Elise to be a prisoner of war, so it's not on Corrin. Ryoma also attacked before Corrin finished speaking, so never got to offer any alternatives. All in all it doesn't feel like it's on Corrin nor does it feel like Ryoma was acting rationally.

Ryoma has absolutely zero obligation to make any consideration for the feelings or wishes of an enemy general, even if that enemy general is his sibling. He also has no obligation to warn her before he attacks her. The fact that he's willing to let Nohrrin come back peacefully is frankly far more than Nohrrin deserves.

We're arguing over whether or not Ryoma is aware of Nohr's villians being "comically evil and one dimensional". I suppose you're right. I shouldn't call any character out on being flawed if I can, as a viewer, know objectively the other side is MORE flawed, even if the in game characters lack this extra knowledge.

In game cannon, there is no evidence Nohr will treat captive royals poor, but evidence they'll treat them with at minimum (going off Corrin): Keeping them alive, keeping them healthy and lack of torture.

How Corrin was treated does not matter. All of the other atrocities that Nohr has committed, including the assassination of the standing Queen of Hoshido using her own child, the same child Garon supposedly treated so well, as a living bomb, give Ryoma zero reason to believe that his family will be spared for any reason.

[Sunwoo]

Ok, but that isn't what Ryoma asks at all. He just askes for Corrin. He literally is fine for Corrin's army, made up with other generals of Nohr to keep running around as long as he gets Corrin. That doesn't feel smart. As

for alternatives:

1. Offer to take Elise as a prisoner and treat her. Now he has a captive he knows Corrin cares about. Political hostages are useful. He also has no reason to believe King Garon might not consider chatting once he has his daughter (we know as the audience he won't but there is no reason for Ryoma to think that a father wouldn't value a blood child. Further he knows the other Nohr siblings care about each other. Now he's got a prisoner to use against Xander, Camilla, Leo - all generals for Nohr)

2. Discuss what Corrin WOULD be willing to trade for the medicine. Which he doesn't. He offers an ultimatum and then attacks.

3. Set up an ambush and take out Corrin before the army knows Ryoma is there - this is actually a much more tactical move if taking out an enemy general is the goal. But it's not. Getting Corrin is the goal. This kinda makes his move feel hollow. Either he wanted to take out Corrin and lacked the intelligence to do it properly, or he felt the need to confront Corrin and talk or he believe you should face your opponent openly. If it was the first, well that makes him not very good at his job. If it was the second, why didn't he talk to Corrin other than offering the ultimatum and then attacking without discussing other options. If it was the last, well he fails to continue to be honorable by using emotional blackmail.

Once the playable characters join your army, Kamui IS the general. For whatever reason the game decides that Kamui is ranked above all these people (to the point where crown prince Marx tells Kamui to escape because it is more important that Kamui the general escape over the CROWN PRINCE). There IS no other general than Kamui as far as the game is concerned.

1. And you think Kamui would really agree to letting Elise be taken as a prisoner of war even if she were going to get treatment? Maybe he should've explicitly made this offer to Kamui -- but we ALL know that the answer would've been no. And then it would be on Kamui.

2. He has no obligation to negotiate with Kamui in the first place. Giving Kamui ANY negotiation point is more than what he is obligated to do. The only thing that asking Kamui what he'd trade for the medicine would accomplish is give power to the enemy -- which is NOT something you want.

3. This point makes no sense and I have no idea how to even respond to it or what you're even saying. What I can respond to is that Ryouma's intentions were to fight Kamui. When Kamui told him that Elise was sick, he decided to negotiate and offer Kamui the medicine if Kamui agreed to return to Hoshido. When the answer was no, then it was going to be a butt-kicking. Doesn't sound to me like Ryouma came to take Kamui back with him. It sounds like he saw an opportunity and decided to take a chance. Because even if this is the person who brought in a sword bomb that killed the queen and destroyed the capital, if there is ANY chance to get them back he'd probably want to take it. If it's "emotional", whatever. But I'd argue that Marx is just as emotional in Birthright path over Kamui's defection. Why not call HIM out on it too?

Do people not call out Iago for being an asshole due to his treatment of Takumi? I was unaware people thought highly of him. :P

Since it has been brought up, yes I do judge Iago for being an asshole. But the situation was also different. Corrin didn't ask to negotiate and then was attacked while trying to discuss terms.

I think the statement about it being more of an negotiation attempt that Corrin honestly deserved is a tough one to argue against because it is fundamentally an opinion. I disagree, because there were other options but Ryoma only wanted one outcome - Corrin to leave with him. When Corrin said no, Ryoma said he'd forced him to fight and then come with him. Ryoma doesn't even offer the chance for Elise to be a prisoner of war, so it's not on Corrin. Ryoma also attacked before Corrin finished speaking, so never got to offer any alternatives. All in all it doesn't feel like it's on Corrin nor does it feel like Ryoma was acting rationally.

Again -- Ryouma did NOT want only one outcome. He came for one reason and one reason only -- to kick Kamui's ass. When he saw a chance to remove Kamui from Nohr's side without fighting, he decided to make an offer. And was turned down. And he had no obligation to do anything else. And again, Ryouma doesn't really have an obligation to take Elise as a prisoner of war anyway. Does Hoshido even take prisoner of wars in-story? I can't remember a single instance of them doing so, even when it was possible to and probably would've been practical to (Birthright 18, Birthright 23). Also, you say that Ryouma wasn't acting rationally. Might I remind you that the entire Elise situation even exists because Kamui's an idiot and decided to tell Ryouma that Elise was sick?

In game cannon, there is no evidence Nohr will treat captive royals poor, but evidence they'll treat them with at minimum (going off Corrin): Keeping them alive, keeping them healthy and lack of torture.

Considering Gunter's supports with Kamui, I wouldn't say that there was a complete "lack of torture" and "keeping healthy". Not to mention, being locked in a tower for most of your life wouldn't be healthy.

Fair. Corrin has fought against Hoshido. But they can't be the only general doing so, and they are unlikely to be the one currently most threatening Hoshido.

Except Iago didn't tip off Ryouma to the whereabouts of any OTHER Nohrian general. Just Kamui.

However, I don't think I'm failing to address the practical side of it. Ryoma marching into enemy terriory after a single general who is not currently any of the generally fighting on the border or in Hoshido does seem less than practical in my opinion. If Corrin had shown to be a significant threat by this point against Hoshido, I may by it as a completely strategic move. But they haven't. So far they've "Managed not to get killed at the port" and "managed to take out Hinoka and gang without killing them". I struggle to believe Corrin is the biggest threat to Hoshido at this time, yet Ryoma still goes after them. He also refuses to talk to Corrin and demands Corrin leave with him and then attacks when Corrin asks to talk instead. Seems emotional to me. But I'll accept that that is an opinion and is unlikely to get resolved.

Ryouma got a tip on Kamui's whereabouts. Kamui took out both Takumi and Hinoka's armies. Regardless of whether they killed their armies or not, they still forced them into a retreat and a loss. Based on the cards that he has AT THE MOMENT, it WAS a practical choice because he didn't have the whereabouts of any other Nohrian generals at that point and Kamui did defeat both of his siblings' armies.

[Red Lilies]

1) If Corn, our righteous, just and peaceful character didn't want to trade himself for Elise's treatment, why would he accept to handle a sick Elise over the enemy general for that?

You are complaining that Ryoma acted dishonorably against Elise, but now you say you wanted him to take her as a war prisoner when Ryoma said he would let her (an underage, sick combatant) go free if only Corn came back. That sounded very honorable, actually.

Don't forget the Nohrian siblings also care about Corn, and will even more after they discover he had to surrender himself for Elise's sake.

2) Again, what Corn could possibly offer Ryoma other than himself? What are these other options everyone keep vaguely talking about that Corn has?

1) No I'm not just complaining Ryoma acted dishonorably. I'm complaining if I say he acted dishonorably people claim he didn't. That even if he did, it was logical and practical although it was Ryoma failing consider more than what he wanted - Corrin.

If it was me, I'd give my sick sister over to have her cured in a heart beat if it would save her life. (though I'd also surrender myself. So eh). But Elise also wasn't given a mission or have to fear to prove herself to her father. So Corrin might have more of a reason to fear going with Ryoma then just handing Elise over. He was never given the option, so we'll never know.

2)Corrin could have given Ryoma Yato, the sacred sword. He could have actually talked to Corrin - maybe some problems could have been worked out.

It just felt lazy to have him suddenly attack and demand Corrin. It feel annoying and frustrating. We can blame the writing, which I do, but it's writing about Ryoma, so I when I say it feel frustrating it also felt out of character.

Because Ryoma's actions are a bit more justifiable than pretty much everyone else's actions. Like I said, Ryoma isn't responsible for Elise's health unless she is under his power, something that can only happen if she surrenders herself to his care or if the entire group surrenders. Asking for Corrin to surrender first is quite reasonable compared to say, Xander's insistence on following the orders of a certified puppy-kicker who makes it quite clear that he plans on killing Corrin nor does he stand up to Hans and Iago for executing surrendering soldiers despite supposedly being 'principled' or Azura and Corrin deciding that the only way to defeat Garon is to let him conquer Hoshido and sit on the throne, knowing fully that this will not only bring untold devastation to Hoshido and that Garon, Hans and Iago are going to kick all the puppies while doing so, but making that plan whilst not even considering any other solutions.

GC provides limited protection to victims, including: Persons taking no active part in hostilities should be treated humanely (including military persons who have ceased to be active as a result of sickness, injury, or detention). The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for. Not left to die. It's not limited to just the in power part. Ryoma could have offered her assistance but instead used her for emotional blackmail.

It also lacks a certain amount of feeling justified due to being at least in part feeling emotional on Ryoma's part. This has been pointed out by others as being 'only my option' but considering the amount of maneuvering (plus willingness to trust an enemy political figure's information) to get to Corrin, and then to give up a lot of potential political power (could have ambushed and taken all the army prisoner) just to get Corrin feels emotional to me, not practical.

[Lanko]

But he's seen that multiple Nohr royals acted to save both Kaze and Rinka. He's seen Corrin is alive and healthy. He has reason to believe that Nohr might treat his family well.

But yes, he does have reason to think otherwise as well. I guess it comes down to whether or not he is treating the enemy as he hopes his family would be treated (and there is at least some evidence is possible) or he's given up on the country as a whole.

Options: Hand Elise over as a prisoner for treatment. Offer to give Yato back. Offer money to supply his troops. Offer Ryoma free passage back to Hoshido, given he was deep in enemy territory.

Not sure how losing Corrin would be a massive blow to Nohr since the leaders of country actively try to kill him. They clearly had eggs in other baskets. I will concede the sword. I had forgotten Yato and the practicality removing it from the field would be.

No, only Leo did it. Xander was gonna kill them and Camilla/Elise didn't do anything to save them either. They were just lucky that Garon didn't saw the ruse (even though Kaze joins you and apparently nobody noticed the asian ninja in the middle of Europe). And that was before the explosion, anyway. And Garon's orders would have precedence over whatever what sibling wanted to do, as the siblings themselves tell you and just cower in fear in various chapters.

Why would he hand over Elise? She could then be used against him for his surrender anyway. Corn also wouldn't give the Yato back, not considering his "peace" ideals and after visiting the Rainbow Sage and learning about the blade and its purpose. Hoshido doesn't need money, it's the richest nation in the continent and Nohr is the poorest. Ryoma was defeated and fled back anyway, he didn't need free passage either.

It would be a blow because Conquest only goes forward because of Corn's actions, as he leads the invasion. While Garon/Iago wouldn't care that Corn is gone, the siblings would. They could do something rash trying to get him back.

Also, when Corn doesn't join Nohr, Hoshido is the one that invades and Nohr can't hold a candle against them. We can say that the game makes Corn too special because of that, but for the sake of the discussion, let's just say that Corn does make the decisive difference for the side he chooses.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Lanko

[Time the Crestfallen]

GC provides limited protection to victims, including: Persons taking no active part in hostilities should be treated humanely (including military persons who have ceased to be active as a result of sickness, injury, or detention). The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for. Not left to die. It's not limited to just the in power part. Ryoma could have offered her assistance but instead used her for emotional blackmail.

It also lacks a certain amount of feeling justified due to being at least in part feeling emotional on Ryoma's part. This has been pointed out by others as being 'only my option' but considering the amount of maneuvering (plus willingness to trust an enemy political figure's information) to get to Corrin, and then to give up a lot of potential political power (could have ambushed and taken all the army prisoner) just to get Corrin feels emotional to me, not practical.

Pretty sure 'collect and care for' comes into play once a battle is over. While Non-combatants are afforded limited protection, I don't see why Ryoma is obliged to just give them medicine, especially considering that under the GC, it seems like he only has to actually take care of Elise if she's under his power.

[Water Mage]

I was reading the OP again, and something struck me as odd.

You said that Ryoma should have given the medicine as an act of goodwill.

Anwser me this:

Why would Ryoma do that? Hoshido didn't anything wrong. If they are invading a Nohrian castle, it was because Nohr attacked first. All of their actions are essentially in self-defense.

If anything it's Nohr that should of offering an act of goodwill.

In other words; there's still no reason for Ryoma to save Elise's life.

And besides, there's no reason to take Elise hostage, Elise is actually more useful dead rather than alive to Hoshido, as her death would obviously affect the Nohrian royal family, who command the army.

It may sound evil, but letting Elise die a slow, cruel and painful death is actually a pretty sound strategy, as Xander, Camilla, Corrin and Leo, who leads the armies of Nohr, would obviously be distressed and that would lead them to let their emotions get the better of them, which would lead them to make hasty decisions, bad planning and simple mistakes, giving Hoshido the upper hand.

[Lanko]

1) No I'm not just complaining Ryoma acted dishonorably. I'm complaining if I say he acted dishonorably people claim he didn't. That even if he did, it was logical and practical although it was Ryoma failing consider more than what he wanted - Corrin.

If it was me, I'd give my sick sister over to have her cured in a heart beat if it would save her life. (though I'd also surrender myself. So eh). But Elise also wasn't given a mission or have to fear to prove herself to her father. So Corrin might have more of a reason to fear going with Ryoma then just handing Elise over. He was never given the option, so we'll never know.

2)Corrin could have given Ryoma Yato, the sacred sword. He could have actually talked to Corrin - maybe some problems could have been worked out.

It just felt lazy to have him suddenly attack and demand Corrin. It feel annoying and frustrating. We can blame the writing, which I do, but it's writing about Ryoma, so I when I say it feel frustrating it also felt out of character.

GC provides limited protection to victims, including: Persons taking no active part in hostilities should be treated humanely (including military persons who have ceased to be active as a result of sickness, injury, or detention). The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for. Not left to die. It's not limited to just the in power part. Ryoma could have offered her assistance but instead used her for emotional blackmail.

It also lacks a certain amount of feeling justified due to being at least in part feeling emotional on Ryoma's part. This has been pointed out by others as being 'only my option' but considering the amount of maneuvering (plus willingness to trust an enemy political figure's information) to get to Corrin, and then to give up a lot of potential political power (could have ambushed and taken all the army prisoner) just to get Corrin feels emotional to me, not practical.

1) Why would you surrender yourself and your sister when only you would suffice and your sister would get the treatment and go free?

2) Unlikely that Corn would accept, specially after he visits the Rainbow Sage and that the blade will bring permanent peace and etc. Ryoma would probably not accept only the blade either.

3) The ambush part is just game mechanics vs narration. In a sense, they did ambush Corn, as you are surprised they are there, can't back down and can only exit the stage by going forward - against Ryoma's troops. They are tons of maps in FE that pictures ambushes just like this.

4) Offering her assistance before putting terms on Corn is not a smart move. How long would she take to recover? Would the medicine even work? Would he have to wait with his army there until she fully recovered? What if she died?

He was in enemy territory, risking getting discovered and surrounded. The best proposal was to get Corn back and leave Elise and the Nohrians behind to treat her. This solved both problems. Ryoma got Corn back and still allowed Elise to be treated as per "humanitarian reasons".

5) Corn is his family, of course there's a great deal of emotional influence in his decision. What did anyone else expected? He still made the most logical, and even honorable, decision on that part. Tried to get Corn back, and even though he could have demanded Elise as well, even if to treat her while a prisoner, he allowed her to go free.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Lanko

[Roxachronc]

It's war. Everything is fair game to guarantee the survival of your country and people. Lose, and your country will be pillaged and razed and the enemy will have their way with the people.

That's why I like what Micaiah tried in Radiant Dawn against the Begnion army that was gonna conquer them again, an army five times or more of Daein's size and people freaked out and called her a war criminal. Haha. Seriously.

Ryoma doesn't have any reason (except the goodwill of his heart) to help her. In fact, his main reason to be there should be capture her (not that Garon would care) to have some leverage, not to bring back Corn.

In fact, one would expect much more pragmatism from the Nohrian royals in certain chapters. It is even more non-sense when you have Leo saying that Zola or Iago are dishonorable when his personal skill is "Pragmatic".

Tought I was the the only one that agreed with Micaiah, she is one of my favorite characters because she does what is needed instead of just complaining all day why she should fight and kill, alongside not being a crybaby, unlike a certain main avatar protagonist.

Regarding that I think Kamui's actions are much more questionable than Ryouma's.

Also this is a game were you can turn into a dragon, fly in a pegasus, use magic, travel in time and use interdimensional portals, like, why the hell would someone think this game can be logical?

Edited April 12, 2016 by Roxachronc

[BruceLee]

But while Nohr is presented as a “morally ambiguous place” that often does questionable things, the story presents Hoshido as good and honorable. Which is why it is so easy to have a kneejerk disgusted reaction of Ryoma’s choices in Chapter 12. Because it’s a guy claiming he’s on the high ground while doing questionable things.

This is a hard thing to feel good about, especially since the game has set up Ryoma as a “good” and “honorable” man. It’s the same thing with Xander being a “good” and “honorable” man who is tortured by his actions which he commits in the name of “duty”. At least the game acknowledges his actions are wrong, yet Ryoma doesn’t even see the moral problems with his.).

The double standards. Oh the double standards.

Tell me where the game acknowledges Xander's(that's Xander's, not Nohr's) actions as wrong.

The game constantly tries to make us believe he's honorable even though he willingly participates in the invasion of a peaceful country. When the invasion of Hoshido is complete and Garon is free to rule it, Xander is smiling(this is before cop-out slime daddy). He willingly helped Garon take over Hoshido, killing thousands along the way, and was happy when it was achieved.

Then cop-out slime happens, and suddenly we see him giving a speech about peace. Fuck him.

Edited April 12, 2016 by BruceLee

[Thane]

-- I never said it had anything to do with Elise being a innocent little puppy. Actually I believe I pointed out that at the time Elise was Hocs de combat also known as non-combative because she was too sick. I don’t care whether Elise is cute or if it was another sibiling – I am arguing that as a non-combative she no longer was a threat.

That said, Ryoma has plenty of reasons to be mad at Corrin and Nohr. But that doesn’t make his decision logical, in fact it only highlights that he was coming from an emotional place.

I'm having the hardest time seeing your point here. Elise is an active participant in the war, and Ryouma didn't do anything towards her - he had no obligation to help her, yet he would've allowed her free passage if Corrin went with him. Why aren't you blaming Corrin for putting her life in danger by suddenly being stubborn?

Again, what does this have to do with anything? Even if he were emotional - which he was considering everything that had happened - it doesn't make his actions any less valid: Corrin and Elise present a huge threat to his entire country.

Never argued that the ending was well written or happy. What I argued was his actions in the moment were not from an honorable and good place. You can’t say that what happened later meant that it justified Ryoma’s actions earlier. Ryoma didn’t know any of that was going to happen. He refused to talk or parley even though his opponent asked for it (another big no-no of war throughout history) and then attacked. You say if Corrin had returned to Hoshido to talk it out it might have worked – maybe if Ryoma had taken two seconds to think over his actions – aka crossing miles of enemy territory after a ‘general’ who had so far not set foot on Hoshido soil or been involved in any skirmishes on Hoshido land, then threatening to fight instead of listening even though his opponent wished to talk rather than fight – then maybe they could’ve worked together and reached some sort of agreement or plan or anything.

So, Ryouma being right is invalid because he hadn't been proven right yet, is that what you're saying?

Also, Ryouma didn't refuse to talk or parley; he gave Corrin a choice which the latter refused. If you want to see someone refusing to talk or parley, look at Xander when he's, you know, invading Ryouma's country and saying that words are useless and that the enemy should just die.

And yes, that's exactly what I'm saying: Corrin is being manipulated and set up for failure by his puppy-kicking nation before he goes on a murderous rampage; I'm pretty sure he should've returned to Hoshido. I also think the world would've been better of without them in Conquest, so Ryouma chopping off their head would've been justified as well.

I do think Corrin should have surrendered. But surrendering or not has no reflection on Ryoma’s actions. He picked the fight, he pressed the fight, he tried to use emotional blackmail on Corrin.

Yes. How dare Ryouma try to defend his country from its biggest threat, and not actively help a high-priority target? He didn't press a fight, he didn't even want a fight; he wanted Corrin to come back and try to right their wrongs. - I may not like how black and white this game is, but that is how the conflict is portrayed.

Yes. Stated as before since we’re into copying and pasting atm: Ryoma’s refusal to give Elise medicine or let her have access to doctors? I’ve seen it argued that it’s pragmatic, but it’s not. He loses nothing by allowing her treatment. However, considering she is a royal who he is willing to let die in a non-combative situation, he has now set the standard for how his own sisters and brother might be treated as prisoners. He loses any goodwill they might otherwise have.

One might argue that the goodwill was never there, but to Ryoma there is no evidence of this. At the time of the incident, Ryoma has no reason to believe Nohr will treat any imprisoned family members poorly. While Nohr has treated its prisoners of low birth poorly (see Kaze and Rinka), it currently has a history of treating prisoners of high birth well. After all, his last sibling to be taken by Nohr wasn’t killed....and was raised as a royal. Letting Elise die is almost guaranteed to change this. Saving her, however, builds goodwill towards how himself or his family might be treated during the war. Definitely not logical or smart, especially since Nohrrin was willing to negotiate, so it was not like he didn’t have any other choice. Ryoma was the one who made the choice that it was surrender or fight.

History shows there is very little actual killing of prisoners of noble birth because the cost is usually so high. You want to treat your prisoners how you hope your enemy will treat them.

Did we play the same game? Ryouma's father was personally killed by the KING of Nohr during a PEACE CONFERENCE! Suzukaze and Rinkah (not of low birth) were forced to fight to the death while the Nohr royals watched! Xander personally told Ryouma to shut up and die as he was invading Hoshido! Corrin was used as a pawn in Garon's game and locked inside a giant fortress and had their memories altered! If you're going to ignore the facts here, then why did you create a thread?

[Meh]

Haven't really read through this thread but I don't get the hate for what Ryouma did in chapter 12. Denying resources, including medicine to the enemy is pretty reasonable and standard war practice. And if that denial results in the death of a high-value target like a royal enemy combatant? Still fine. If this denial gives him an upper hand in negotiations? Still fine.

Afaik, nothing he's done can really be considered a war crime or straight up villainous.

[Fyras4]

Haven't really read through this thread but I don't get the hate for what Ryouma did in chapter 12. Denying resources, including medicine to the enemy is pretty reasonable and standard war practice. And if that denial results in the death of a high-value target like a royal enemy combatant? Still fine. If this denial gives him an upper hand in negotiations? Still fine.

Afaik, nothing he's done can really be considered a war crime or straight up villainous.

It seems more of a point of view problem though...unless he was laughing like an evil maniac when he did it then it will be understandable...although I will concede that the OP had a point about Ryoma 'sacrificing' men and women if his only goal was to capture Kamui/Corrin at the time (unless stated otherwise somewhere else).

I get the feeling the scene would have played differently if Ryoma had not been involved at all...maybe a Hoshidan general that was a bit more antagonistic would have worked but that's just me.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Fyras4

[NekoKnight]

Did we play the same game? Ryouma's father was personally killed by the KING of Nohr during a PEACE CONFERENCE! Suzukaze and Rinkah (not of low birth) were forced to fight to the death while the Nohr royals watched! Xander personally told Ryouma to shut up and die as he was invading Hoshido! Corrin was used as a pawn in Garon's game and locked inside a giant fortress and had their memories altered! If you're going to ignore the facts here, then why did you create a thread?

I'm deeply confused by OPs view of reality here. He's going on about real-world treaties on the conduct in war...in a fictional setting and then he's acting like Ryoma needs to earn the goodwill of the nation that's invading his. Nohr in the past and present has shown to be nothing but deceptive and without mercy, but suddenly Ryoma's the bad guy for not playing (extra) nice and the obeying rules of war (that don't exist).

[Red Lilies]

Once the playable characters join your army, Kamui IS the general. For whatever reason the game decides that Kamui is ranked above all these people (to the point where crown prince Marx tells Kamui to escape because it is more important that Kamui the general escape over the CROWN PRINCE). There IS no other general than Kamui as far as the game is concerned.

1. And you think Kamui would really agree to letting Elise be taken as a prisoner of war even if she were going to get treatment? Maybe he should've explicitly made this offer to Kamui -- but we ALL know that the answer would've been no. And then it would be on Kamui.

2. He has no obligation to negotiate with Kamui in the first place. Giving Kamui ANY negotiation point is more than what he is obligated to do. The only thing that asking Kamui what he'd trade for the medicine would accomplish is give power to the enemy -- which is NOT something you want.

1)But the offer wasn’t made. So we can’t say what Corrin would have said. Corrin isn’t surrendering at this point because the Rainbow Sage has told them they must follow the path in order to bring peace. But that doesn’t mean Corrin needs to let Elise die – I will argue that surrendering her to the enemy is actually a good move for Corrin because it secures Elise’s health and safety, lets Corrin continue on their path and shows Ryoma that Corrin is willing to talk over fighting.

2)He has no obligation to negotiate. I agree. But that brings me back to my point of what was he doing there in the first place? And that I judge his actions in going to Macarath as irrational and endangering his men for personal needs. Which is not a good mark in a leader.

3. This point makes no sense and I have no idea how to even respond to it or what you're even saying. What I can respond to is that Ryouma's intentions were to fight Kamui. When Kamui told him that Elise was sick, he decided to negotiate and offer Kamui the medicine if Kamui agreed to return to Hoshido. When the answer was no, then it was going to be a butt-kicking. Doesn't sound to me like Ryouma came to take Kamui back with him. It sounds like he saw an opportunity and decided to take a chance. Because even if this is the person who brought in a sword bomb that killed the queen and destroyed the capital, if there is ANY chance to get them back he'd probably want to take it. If it's "emotional", whatever. But I'd argue that Marx is just as emotional in Birthright path over Kamui's defection. Why not call HIM out on it too?

I’ll clarify. If the goal was to take Corrin out, why not ambush? This makes me believe that taking Corrin out wasn’t the actual objective. Further Ryoma literally states when Corrin refuses to come with him that Ryoma will force it. “The sting of my blade will return you to your senses! You’re coming home today!” It is emotional. It is about taking Corrin back. Ryoma’s goal was to capture Corrin and he did not consider any other options nor acted in a rational manner. Macarath is super far into enemy territory. Ryoma is traveling there on the word of an enemy because his sibling is going to be there, yet can’t spend more than thirty seconds talking to them? And so yes, he’s acting irrationally, not pragmatically and I do think that we can critizice him for that without everyone saying the only reason the scene and behavior bothered people was because “Poor little cute Elise was in danger!”.

I do call Marx out. I’ll happily list all the annoying things all the royals do over the course of the game. The fact I’m arguing that Ryoma made bad decisions here is a fact that is completely separate from this. Or perhaps that is slightly wrong, the fact I am calling Ryoma out is because he’s the one who gets his actions defended. So I wanted to lay out what I believed the argument to be an see what people had to say.

I can’t claim I wasn’t “picking a fight” since technically I am trying to have a discussion with opposing viewpoints and I did ask for it. But I wasn’t looking for a potshot taking squabble, which some responders have given me. I was and am looking to have points addressed, and am happy to be convinced otherwise on my current standing. I have simply felt that up to this point the arguments calling Ryoma out have been poorly stated and often lacked that parts that I personally believed held most weight (the impractical part of marching across the country to fight an enemy general on intel he receives from a questionable source as opposed to dealing with the more obvious threats at the border)

Again -- Ryouma did NOT want only one outcome. He came for one reason and one reason only -- to kick Kamui's ass.

--this seems contradictory. Please explain more clearly.

Considering Gunter's supports with Kamui, I wouldn't say that there was a complete "lack of torture" and "keeping healthy". Not to mention, being locked in a tower for most of your life wouldn't be healthy.

Fair

Except Iago didn't tip off Ryouma to the whereabouts of any OTHER Nohrian general. Just Kamui.

Ryouma got a tip on Kamui's whereabouts. Kamui took out both Takumi and Hinoka's armies. Regardless of whether they killed their armies or not, they still forced them into a retreat and a loss. Based on the cards that he has AT THE MOMENT, it WAS a practical choice because he didn't have the whereabouts of any other Nohrian generals at that point and Kamui did defeat both of his siblings' armies.

And Ryoma was happy to believe the tip off. And cross miles of enemy territory leaving the front to do so. Macarthe is very deep in Nohr. Corrin is not part of the main army nor fighting on the front lines, yet Ryoma chose to go after him. On enemy intel. It feels contrived.

No, only Leo did it. Xander was gonna kill them and Camilla/Elise didn't do anything to save them either. They were just lucky that Garon didn't saw the ruse (even though Kaze joins you and apparently nobody noticed the asian ninja in the middle of Europe). And that was before the explosion, anyway. And Garon's orders would have precedence over whatever what sibling wanted to do, as the siblings themselves tell you and just cower in fear in various chapters.

Why would he hand over Elise? She could then be used against him for his surrender anyway. Corn also wouldn't give the Yato back, not considering his "peace" ideals and after visiting the Rainbow Sage and learning about the blade and its purpose. Hoshido doesn't need money, it's the richest nation in the continent and Nohr is the poorest. Ryoma was defeated and fled back anyway, he didn't need free passage either.

.

Because handing Elise over would have secured her treatment? Ryoma has no reason to believe Corrin wouldn’t hand over the Yato. He if had asked, or you know, talked to Corrin at all other than offering the ultimatum, things might have been different. Maybe Corrin would have explained things and what the Rainbow Sage told them. Maybe not. We’ll never know because Ryoma was being trigger happy. If you’re going to argue that Ryoma was confident enough he knew he could just fight his way back to Hoshido rather than secure safe passage for his men, why isn’t he confident enough to talk to Corrin for any length of time – especially when Corrin wants to talk? Perhaps because he’s trigger happy?

It would be a blow because Conquest only goes forward because of Corn's actions, as he leads the invasion. While Garon/Iago wouldn't care that Corn is gone, the siblings would. They could do something rash trying to get him back.

Also, when Corn doesn't join Nohr, Hoshido is the one that invades and Nohr can't hold a candle against them. We can say that the game makes Corn too special because of that, but for the sake of the discussion, let's just say that Corn does make the decisive difference for the side he chooses

This is arguing plot over personal motivations, so I doubt we’ll agree. I’d argue the invasion would have continued and Ryoma wouldn’t have gained anything but creating a martyr by taking Corrin or letting Elise die.

I was reading the OP again, and something struck me as odd.

You said that Ryoma should have given the medicine as an act of goodwill.

Anwser me this:

Why would Ryoma do that? Hoshido didn't anything wrong. If they are invading a Nohrian castle, it was because Nohr attacked first. All of their actions are essentially in self-defense.

If anything it's Nohr that should of offering an act of goodwill.

I was actually arguing that Ryoma should treat the enemy how he hopes his family would be treated if they were taken prisoner. So far, Corrin has made it clear they’ll fight for Hoshido prisoners and keep them alive. However, letting Elise die is setting Ryoma up to creating a Corrin who might let Hoshido sisters die in revenge.

In other words; there's still no reason for Ryoma to save Elise's life.

And besides, there's no reason to take Elise hostage, Elise is actually more useful dead rather than alive to Hoshido, as her death would obviously affect the Nohrian royal family, who command the army.

It may sound evil, but letting Elise die a slow, cruel and painful death is actually a pretty sound strategy, as Xander, Camilla, Corrin and Leo, who leads the armies of Nohr, would obviously be distressed and that would lead them to let their emotions get the better of them, which would lead them to make hasty decisions, bad planning and simple mistakes, giving Hoshido the upper hand.

Or it creates a martyr and Nohr fights harder due to the loss of the princess, bolstering a previously lack-luster army that wasn’t super invested in the fight. We don’t know.

1) Why would you surrender yourself and your sister when only you would suffice and your sister would get the treatment and go free?

2) Unlikely that Corn would accept, specially after he visits the Rainbow Sage and that the blade will bring permanent peace and etc. Ryoma would probably not accept only the blade either.

3) The ambush part is just game mechanics vs narration. In a sense, they did ambush Corn, as you are surprised they are there, can't back down and can only exit the stage by going forward - against Ryoma's troops. They are tons of maps in FE that pictures ambushes just like this.

4) Offering her assistance before putting terms on Corn is not a smart move. How long would she take to recover? Would the medicine even work? Would he have to wait with his army there until she fully recovered? What if she died?

He was in enemy territory, risking getting discovered and surrounded. The best proposal was to get Corn back and leave Elise and the Nohrians behind to treat her. This solved both problems. Ryoma got Corn back and still allowed Elise to be treated as per "humanitarian reasons".

5) Corn is his family, of course there's a great deal of emotional influence in his decision. What did anyone else expected? He still made the most logical, and even honorable, decision on that part. Tried to get Corn back, and even though he could have demanded Elise as well, even if to treat her while a prisoner, he allowed her to go free.

1)I never said surrender yourself, but surrender your sister

2)Yes but Ryoma doesn’t know that. I’d be very interested in that exchange. Hoshido clearly believes in Yato’s power, yet Ryoma doesn’t even want to take the time to discuss what Corrin’s goals and motivations are? Seems to me this would have fixed a lot of problems, and Corrin was trying to do that here but Ryoma was very trigger happy and pressed the fight.

3)Ok, but the motivations behind Ryoma is what I’m addressing, not the need for a non ambush map. Once we bring game mechanics into this it no longer becomes a discussion on character actions and whether or not people should feel the character acted poorly. I’m happy to leave it at bad writing though, if you are.

4)But why was he in enemy territory? Because he came to see Corrin and force them to return with them. At the risk of his own men. In favor of leaving the active fighting at the border. His actions are personal from where I stand and his choice to use Elise to further it is just one of the many things I feel he was doing wrong at the scene. He just is a bad leader in this scene and suddenly becoming “pragmatic” once he’s made decisions which are not pragmatic feels forced.

5)I am arguing his presence there in the first place is logical and hardly strategic and thus reflects poorly on him as a leader.

The double standards. Oh the double standards.

Tell me where the game acknowledges Xander's(that's Xander's, not Nohr's) actions as wrong.

The game constantly tries to make us believe he's honorable even though he willingly participates in the invasion of a peaceful country. When the invasion of Hoshido is complete and Garon is free to rule it, Xander is smiling(this is before cop-out slime daddy). He willingly helped Garon take over Hoshido, killing thousands along the way, and was happy when it was achieved.

Then cop-out slime happens, and suddenly we see him giving a speech about peace. Fuck him.

I do think Xander is wrong in many parts of the game. How is it double standards to also think Ryoma acted as a poor leader? I do call Marx out. I’ll happily list all the annoying things all the royals do over the course of the game. The fact I’m arguing that Ryoma made bad decisions here is a fact that is completely separate from this. Or perhaps that is slightly wrong, the fact I am calling Ryoma out is because he’s the one who gets his actions defended. So I wanted to lay out what I believed the argument to be and see what people had to say.

I'm having the hardest time seeing your point here. Elise is an active participant in the war, and Ryouma didn't do anything towards her - he had no obligation to help her, yet he would've allowed her free passage if Corrin went with him. Why aren't you blaming Corrin for putting her life in danger by suddenly being stubborn?

Again, what does this have to do with anything? Even if he were emotional - which he was considering everything that had happened - it doesn't make his actions any less valid: Corrin and Elise present a huge threat to his entire country.

I did address in my last post that I feel Corrin should have behaved differently. But how I judge Corrin on their actions is separated from how I’m judging Ryoma. Who I feel was acting immorally and emotionally, and not living up to his title as crown prince.

Corrin and Elise may be a threat, but they are a threat Ryoma had to go out of his way to address and ignore current pressing attacks on his boarder. In order to address a threat that has yet to make a move on Hoshido. And then he doesn’t bother to try to talk or listen to Corrin, he picks a fight. I feel this reflects poorly on him.

So, Ryouma being right is invalid because he hadn't been proven right yet, is that what you're saying?

Also, Ryouma didn't refuse to talk or parley; he gave Corrin a choice which the latter refused. If you want to see someone refusing to talk or parley, look at Xander when he's, you know, invading Ryouma's country and saying that words are useless and that the enemy should just die.

And yes, that's exactly what I'm saying: Corrin is being manipulated and set up for failure by his puppy-kicking nation before he goes on a murderous rampage; I'm pretty sure he should've returned to Hoshido. I also think the world would've been better of without them in Conquest, so Ryouma chopping off their head would've been justified as well.

Yes. I am saying we can’t use future events to claim past actions are justified.

Ryoma did refuse to talk. Corrin asked to talk, said they wanted and were working for peace and Ryoma ignored them and attacked while corrin was still talking.

Corrin is being manipulated, I agree. I’m happy to have a different conversation via pm or another thread on what Corrin should have done, but I’m currently looking at Ryoma and his actions.

Yes. How dare Ryouma try to defend his country from its biggest threat, and not actively help a high-priority target? He didn't press a fight, he didn't even want a fight; he wanted Corrin to come back and try to right their wrongs. - I may not like how black and white this game is, but that is how the conflict is portrayed.

Please explain how at this point in the story Corrin appears the biggest threat over the currently invading army at the border?

And Ryoma did press the fight. He attacked while Corrin wanted to talk say “I’ll show you with my blade then and take you home!”

Did we play the same game? Ryouma's father was personally killed by the KING of Nohr during a PEACE CONFERENCE! Suzukaze and Rinkah (not of low birth) were forced to fight to the death while the Nohr royals watched! Xander personally told Ryouma to shut up and die as he was invading Hoshido! Corrin was used as a pawn in Garon's game and locked inside a giant fortress and had their memories altered! If you're going to ignore the facts here, then why did you create a thread?

it is unclear how tribes are viewed in the social hierarchy, but I’ll concede until I’ve checked further that Rinka would have been considered noble. Kaze likely wasn’t because his clan wasn’t exactly discussed as being politically active and were ninjas.

I don’t feel I’m ignoring the facts, but if you feel I am then this discussion is likely pointless from your point of view. I’m attempting to address what I feel was a failing of character by Ryoma, in what I feel has been a poorly articulated argument in the past. Maybe you feel I’m still poorly articulating it. But the fact that every time someone says “I feel Ryoma acted poorly here” the only thing that get throw back at them is “You only care because Elise is cute!” is missing a lot of what the scene was portraying imho.

I can’t claim I wasn’t “picking a fight” since technically I am trying to have a discussion with opposing viewpoints and I did ask for it. But I wasn’t looking for a potshot taking squabble, which some responders have given me. I was and am looking to have points addressed, and am happy to be convinced otherwise on my current standing. I have simply felt that up to this point the arguments calling Ryoma out have been poorly stated and often lacked that parts that I personally believed held most weight (the impractical part of marching across the country to fight an enemy general on intel he receives from a questionable source as opposed to dealing with the more obvious threats at the border)

I'm deeply confused by OPs view of reality here. He's going on about real-world treaties on the conduct in war...in a fictional setting and then he's acting like Ryoma needs to earn the goodwill of the nation that's invading his. Nohr in the past and present has shown to be nothing but deceptive and without mercy, but suddenly Ryoma's the bad guy for not playing (extra) nice and the obeying rules of war (that don't exist).

well that feels a bit personal. But perhaps I haven’t explained myself very well. I brought up the real world treaties in order to point out that historically humans have always had very prominent feelings on the way people should be treated in war. And that because we do have those feelings, it is fair for someone to feel that Ryoma acted immorally in this scene. And that people’s opinion that it was immoral shouldn’t be simply dismissed as “you only care because Elise is cute”. I have multiple reasons I’m bothered by Ryoma’s behavior and wished to outline them and hear people’s opinions.

[Tolvir]

I think everyone is missing the point here. At least what I am getting from it, OP is trying to say that Ryoma's actions are not in line with his alignment I guess you can say. In other words, he acted at best Neutral, when Ryoma is a Lawful Good character. Sure it makes sense why he does it. I would of likely done the same thing in his situation, but that doesn't make it a good thing to do.

So in order to try and convey this better lets put it this way. Wipe out all previous knowledge of this situation, characters involved, bias towards factions and or characters, and put it in the simplest terms.

Army Leader 1 takes over Enemy Hospital due to information given to him by an unknown, unconfirmed source that an enemy leader would be arriving there with a sick princess of the kingdom. Flag 1, why would Army Leader 1 listen to a random source telling him something that could very likely be a trap and get his men killed? It wasnt from one of his scouts, it just came out of no where, and he replies without hesitation. Why?

Enemy Leader 1 arrives at the Hospital with a sick, as of now non-combatant due to being sick, and only wishes to get them help. Army Leader 1 refuses the Enemy Hospital the chance to help the other non-combatant, and then starts a fight with Enemy Leader 1. Okay, this makes a little more sense. You refuse the help of someone who is clearly sick and dying, and start a fight in a hospital. At the same time though the person who is sick MAY be a problem later, dont know whether they could or not, but you never know, and start a fight right here in the hospital with the Enemy Leader. It makes sense in a way, taking out two birds with one stone, though one of those birds has a broken wing and may never be a problem for you. But at the same time you may leave that bird there, and it comes back later to cause problems. Not exactly the moral thing to do, but in a strategic mind thinking of war, sure. At the same time in a strategic mind thinking of war, fire bombing a city made of wood would also be quite effective, even though a lot of people will die.

So again, not a bad move at all. The only problem I see is why he would listen to Iago in the first place as that was a hell of a risk to take with him and his men, but he is lucky at the fact that it was Corrin he fought, and not someone like Hans who would of slaughtered everyone there. It made sense in a way strategically to refuse the help, and wasnt a stupid move at all. It also wasn't the most moral move of all time, but neither are a lot of decisions made in war. Which is all I think the OP is trying to point out is that, while strategically sound, it wasnt exactly a "good-aligned" action.

[blah the Prussian]

I have already commented on this in my thread, but essentially: Elise is an enemy combatant, Ryoma doesn't owe her shit. I do have a problem, otoh, with Ryoma using his men just to try to get Corrin back, but, well, Hoshido is nepotistic as fuck, and they frankly make the Italians seem like Prussia.

[Red Lilies]

So again, not a bad move at all. The only problem I see is why he would listen to Iago in the first place as that was a hell of a risk to take with him and his men, but he is lucky at the fact that it was Corrin he fought, and not someone like Hans who would of slaughtered everyone there. It made sense in a way strategically to refuse the help, and wasnt a stupid move at all. It also wasn't the most moral move of all time, but neither are a lot of decisions made in war. Which is all I think the OP is trying to point out is that, while strategically sound, it wasnt exactly a "good-aligned" action.

You articulated my point better than I have, so yes this is a lot of what I was getting at, along with I'm still confused to as why Ryoma thought it was ok to march so far into enemy territory with his men on the word of an enemy and then be trigger happy.

I have already commented on this in my thread, but essentially: Elise is an enemy combatant, Ryoma doesn't owe her shit. I do have a problem, otoh, with Ryoma using his men just to try to get Corrin back, but, well, Hoshido is nepotistic as fuck, and they frankly make the Italians seem like Prussia.

I have a problem from a moral stand point (aka I didn't think it in line with a good character for Ryoma to act the way he did, though I can also see it from a pragmatic stand point) and I have a problem from a tactical standpoint of what he was doing there in the first place and endangering his men for a personal vendetta while an invasion of his land was going on. So I think it's fair to be frustrated by his actions, but don't expect everyone to feel the same way (especially on the moral front)