Criticizing Ryoma - What is acceptable in War or perhaps not

[Water Mage]

I have already commented on this in my thread, but essentially: Elise is an enemy combatant, Ryoma doesn't owe her shit. I do have a problem, otoh, with Ryoma using his men just to try to get Corrin back, but, well, Hoshido is nepotistic as fuck, and they frankly make the Italians seem like Prussia.

To be fair, since Ryoma didn't give Elise the medicine, it was obvious that the next choice was to take it by force, and Corrin's army also couldn't ignore an ocuppied castle by enemy forces, so Ryoma's soldiers were going to fight one way or another.

I was actually arguing that Ryoma should treat the enemy how he hopes his family would be treated if they were taken prisoner. So far, Corrin has made it clear theyll fight for Hoshido prisoners and keep them alive. However, letting Elise die is setting Ryoma up to creating a Corrin who might let Hoshido sisters die in revenge.

Or it creates a martyr and Nohr fights harder due to the loss of the princess, bolstering a previously lack-luster army that wasnt super invested in the fight. We dont know. [/size]

Nohr's and Hoshido's relations are already pretty bad by the time game starts, it's obvious that Hoshido doesn't have the option of diplomacy anymore, Azura's kidnapping is a prime example of that.

And believe me, a martyr can actually do more harm than good. In a country like Hoshido, it works because the people loved the royal family and it was a clear act of aggression from Nohr.

In Elise's case, she part of the Nohr royal family, which is despised by the people of Nohr, and Elise's death by illness would be the result of Nohr's actions, because Nohr if hadn't attacked Hoshido, Ryoma wouldn't have a reason to deny Elise medicine.

And even if it spurred the army to fight harder, they would be driven by emotion, and when people are driven by emotion, they tend to act rashly and stupid.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Water Mage

[blah the Prussian]

Yeah, but the reason Ryoma occupied the castle in the first place was to try to get Corrin back. That one castle had no strategic or tactical significance.

[Jave]

The only FE game that I've played (7-11, 13-14) that actually made a point about not killing noncombatants was that one chapter in FE9, and those guys were priests who were literally being held hostage. Not medics who were openly aligned with a side.

I don't want to drag myself into this discussion (I don't recall elements of the story in much detail to form a valid opinion), and I know you haven't played the games I mention here, but I want to set the record straight on this.

FE3/FE12 has two chapters that motivate you to play pacifist. The first one (I believe this one is only on FE12, I could be wrong) where not harming any of the unarmed enemy healers grants you a reward at the end (I think it's a Warp Staff), and the second where not killing any of the Gra soldiers is required to recruit two characters later on.

FE5 also has an entire mechanic that motivates you to play Pacifist, which involves capturing enemies, stripping them off their weapons, and setting them free. Some characters can only be recruited by doing this, and the game does remind you a couple of times that capturing enemies might be beneficial for your army. You can even capture and release the final boss (which is actually hilarious in hindsight).

Also, FE6 endgame:

In the best ending, Roy spares the final boss, but that's understandable since the final boss isn't truly evil

[shadowofchaos]

I'm just reading the discussion from a far and staying away from the flak.

Just one correction...

It's "Yatonokami" not "Yatogami".

[Thor Odinson]

I'm not going to get too into the discussion either because my reaction to this shit is "notto disu shitto agen" and this is a dead horse I've beaten too many times back before localization.

But I'm here to get some facts straight.

It was not a hospital. It's a villa with herbs stored in it.

Ryoma didn't know about Elise being sick until Corn ran their mouth.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Thor Odinson

[Tolvir]

All I have left to say is no matter what everyone thinks about elise and whether or not Ryoma should of let her die so that he could either kill or capture Corrin, the entire reason Ryoma went there to begin with is really stupid. Like I said before he gets a message or gets told out of no where, from someone he does not know, that Corrin would be at this location. Well lets look at this location shall we? It is a Nohrian facility, hospital or not, deep in the territory of Nohr. What was stopping whoever gave Ryoma this message from setting up an ambush and killing Ryoma?

I actually think Iago missed a huge oppurotunity here just to get at Corrin because it was such an easy set up. All he had to do was place Hans outside of it somewhere with a large team of soldiers, and once Ryoma and his forces entered the facility, you ambush him and either capture him or kill him. After that Hoshido is done. Now they lost both Mikoto and the Crown Prince. That leaves either Takumi or Hinoka in charge, and neither of them are ready to lead a kingdom, especially Takumi who is in the process of being Possessed, It was a really stupid move by Ryoma to do this in the first place because it put all of his soldiers lives, and the fate of his kingdom at risk for listening to some unknown person about where Corrin is.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Tolvir

[Lanko]

I will address the most common points being brought up here.

1) Ryoma being in Macarath was illogical and endangered his men. He should be fighting in the borders.

It was not. He has no way of knowing where his informant got the info. Would you really believe that it was the enemy general that gave you the position of his own king's sick daughter? The move was actually an interesting maneuver, as who would expect him to charge into the enemy territory? That's what they do in Birthright and surprise the Nohrians.

Also, there was no enemy army fighting in the borders. The Invasion doesn't begin until chapter 16, in which you fight common thieves on the ship and then passes 2 more chapters fighting your own Nohrian allies, so this a moot point.

2) Ryoma was being emotional, not rational.

Corn is his brother, of course there is emotional influence, what did you expect? He saw a chance and went for it. His proposal was extremely rational.

If it's someone that should be questioned for irrationality, it should be Iago, for not marching to capture Ryoma and risking his king's own daughter life just to see Corn face a difficult decision.

3) Ryoma should have treated Elise or Corn should have surrendered her.

Ryoma is not in his country, inside a fort. He's in enemy territory, on a surprise attack. He can't hang around forever. How long would it take for Elise to recover? What if the medicine didn't work? Why would he treat her if the enemy leader/army didn't surrender their weapons in the first place?

Corn surrendering Elise is an even worse action than anything Ryoma proposed. Azura, raised and protected by the queen, was kidnapped by Hoshidan soldiers to be killed after the explosion. Why the hell would Corn then surrender his younger sister, risking her getting killed by discontent Hoshidans? Ryoma couldn't do crap to protect Azura.

Also, if you mentioned Corn needs to prove himself to Garon, then surrendering Elise would surely not do that, not to mention it would give Garon and Iago the perfect excuse of treason to execute him.

4) Surrendering Elise would have guaranteed her treatment.

The treatment was already guaranteed if Corn came back to Hoshido with Ryoma. And she would also not be imprisoned.

5) They should have negotiated more. Or Corn could haven given the Yato.

There's absolutely nothing that Corn can offer Ryoma other than himself. No money, no free passage, no information, no peace treaty. Nothing. Corn returning would also bring the Yato back anyway. And outside Chapter 5 and Endgame, no Hoshidan ever brings up the topic of the sword again.

Ryoma's proposal was the most logical one and actually fulfilled both pragmatic and humanitarian objectives in one go.

Corn would return, which would be emotionally good for the Hoshidan family and bad for the Nohrians, would also deprive the use of a powerful weapon against his country while also making use of it against Nohr itself.

As for "humanitarian reasons", Ryoma allowed the Nohrians free passage to treat Elise and even allowed her to go free instead of getting her, a royal, underage sick combatant, as a prisoner of war.

Since Corn refused the proposal and there was nothing else he could offer Ryoma, the only option was to attack an enemy commander and after defeating and subduing him, bring him back. In this battle he would also get rid of a number of retainers, Elise would surely be imprisoned after this and even Camilla (another princess) could also be captured or killed. Another major blow on Nohr.

It's actually surprising how she doesn't have any lines in this map. IS really dropped the ball on the story.

6) Ryoma should have ambushed Corn.

He did. He was waiting for Corn's group. There was no way out other than charge into the enemy lines. Corn was also never alone, mindlessly wandering about for someone to sneak on him.

7) Ryoma should have treated his enemies to gain their goodwill and make them treat his own men/populace/siblings well.

Ryoma's father was murdered in an ambush during a peace meeting. Corn was then kidnapped and brainwashed. Then Ryoma's mother and thousands of civilians die during an explosion caused by the sword Garon gave Corn.

What leader, of any country during any age period would try to gain Nohr's goodwill or trust anyone from there?

It was Corn, not Nohr, that saved Rinkah and Kaze. Xander was gonna kill them and Leo tricked Garon, not because of goodwill for Kaze and Rinkah, but to calm down Garron and at the same time not upset Corn, a sibling he loved. Xander allows them to go, because after all that trouble, why kill them now and make Corn angry at him? Again, not goodwill.

This argument keeps being used only by stubbornness, as Nohr itself already set the standards of goodwill, and even then Ryoma would allow Elise to go free and unharmed if only Corn came back.

8) Elise dieing would create a martyr.

If Sumeragi and Mikoto's deaths didn't, don't see how Elise could have done it.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Lanko

[Tolvir]

I will address the most common points being brought up here.

1) Ryoma being in Macarath was illogical and endangered his men. He should be fighting in the borders.

It was not. He has no way of knowing where his informant got the info. Would you really believe that it was the enemy general that gave you the position of his own king's sick daughter? The move was actually an interesting maneuver, as who would expect him to charge into the enemy territory? That's what they do in Birthright and surprise the Nohrians.

Also, there was no enemy army fighting in the borders. The Invasion doesn't begin until chapter 16, in which you fight common thieves on the ship and then passes 2 more chapters fighting your own Nohrian allies, so this a moot point.

Except the biggest problem is, yet again, the fact that Iago told him that Corrin would of been there. If Ryoma went there on his own will, then yes, it was a good move. Its the fact he goes there after being told by someone he doesnt know that Corrin was going to be there. That is what puts everything in danger because nothing is stopping Nohr from launching an ambush on you. Ryoma literally just walked into one of the oldest tricks in the book, and is extremely lucky he is dealing with a bunch of incompetent saturday morning cartoon villians because if this was anyone else, he and his men would be dead after falling for such a stupid trap. The enemy would be laughing for years about how gullible the enemy prince was for believing such a stupid thing, and getting all those people killed.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Tolvir

[saisymbolic]

Where does it say Iago told Ryoma that Corrinmui would be there? I'm just curious.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Here's a better and more interesting question:

What if victim wasn't Elise?

What if the sick person was Camilla? Or Xander? Better yet, what if it was Garon?

I think the major reason people critcize Ryoma in Chapter 12 is because the victim is Elise, the "cute, innocent little sister".

Who the game expects you to feel sorry for.

Chiming in here: personally, it's not because it's explicitly Elise (worth noting: I was annoyed by all eight siblings at first and it took some time for me to warm up to any of them, to the point where I probably would have chosen Revelation first if it was accessible and I wasn't set on doing Conquest for gameplay). I would have raised an eyebrow even if the game had a procedure to pick someone at random. Odin? Niles? Xander? Nyx? Generic Lancer dude? Still would've gotten the same eyebrow raise from me.

Looking back on it from later in the campaign makes me question why no one seemed to give a crap about this enough to say anything to Ryoma about it too. Let's look at C17. Kotaro uses Kagero, a PoW, as a bargaining chip. Apparently this is such an outrage to the game that both Nohr and Hoshido band together to kick his ass. In C18, Zola executes an amazing trap (albeit, in neutral territory, which could have caused shit to really hit the fan if Nohr had any other big, powerful nation than Hoshido to answer to) that captures all the Hoshido royals and the game wants us to believe that this is dishonourable. In fact, it's apparently such a given that afterward, Ryoma comments that not only would he have done the same, but that it's not even worth thanking Corrin and company for.

So why is the game so inconsistent about this? It only calls characters out when the victims are Hoshidan, despite very similar circumstances.

If it's "emotional", whatever. But I'd argue that Marx is just as emotional in Birthright path over Kamui's defection. Why not call HIM out on it too?

Wait, do people not call Xander out for suddenly going full douche mode in C6? Because I've had a "What the hell?" reaction to it on both paths so far, since Ryoma and Xander will each pretty much immediately attack Corrin for choosing the opposite side. No, just because I played Conquest first, Xander gets no passes on this. Actually, maybe even less of a pass because it makes him look like even more of a dick. And that's only getting into his actions in C6.

The double standards. Oh the double standards.

Tell me where the game acknowledges Xander's(that's Xander's, not Nohr's) actions as wrong.

The game constantly tries to make us believe he's honorable even though he willingly participates in the invasion of a peaceful country. When the invasion of Hoshido is complete and Garon is free to rule it, Xander is smiling(this is before cop-out slime daddy). He willingly helped Garon take over Hoshido, killing thousands along the way, and was happy when it was achieved.

Then cop-out slime happens, and suddenly we see him giving a speech about peace. Fuck him.

The game is really weird about this because it pushes this viewpoint about him, despite offering a pretty pragmatic, grey speech from him just prior to C24. It's where he basically confesses that there's no justice in the world, just nepotism. Therefore, he's just protecting the closest people who matter the most to him.

There's absolutely nothing that Corn can offer Ryoma other than himself. No money, no free passage, no information, no peace treaty. Nothing. Corn returning would also bring the Yato back anyway. And outside Chapter 5 and Endgame, no Hoshidan ever brings up the topic of the sword again.

It does come up offhandedly as part of Conquest 23. Right before Takumi completely loses his shit for good, he makes mention that he doesn't need the sacred blade. Really makes it seem like the Yato should have been more important to the story, but everyone on the writing team just forgot about it in the interim.

Where does it say Iago told Ryoma that Corrinmui would be there? I'm just curious.

It's in one of the scenes where Garon and Iago are having a villain conference and Garon talks about wanting to make Corrin suffer and fight things he doesn't want to and Iago says that he has an interesting idea before the scene cuts off. So Iago probably didn't tell him directly, but for intel like that and especially coming from someone of Iago's incompetence, it's doubtful that it would have been relayed to Ryoma in any way that wasn't some level of suspect.

[Lanko]

Except the biggest problem is, yet again, the fact that Iago told him that Corrin would of been there. If Ryoma went there on his own will, then yes, it was a good move. Its the fact he goes there after being told by someone he doesnt know that Corrin was going to be there. That is what puts everything in danger because nothing is stopping Nohr from launching an ambush on you. Ryoma literally just walked into one of the oldest tricks in the book, and is extremely lucky he is dealing with a bunch of incompetent saturday morning cartoon villians because if this was anyone else, he and his men would be dead after falling for such a stupid trap. The enemy would be laughing for years about how gullible the enemy prince was for believing such a stupid thing, and getting all those people killed.

We never see Iago telling him actually, so Ryoma has no reason to believe his information isn't secure. Of course the information had to come from an unknown Nohrian source, be it civilian, military or political. Both sides don't have spies on the enemy country, so there was no other way Ryoma would know Corn would be there unless Kaze was secretly feeding info to Hoshido.

From what we see in the story, both in CQ and BR, is that Ryoma is probably around Cheve and then heard rumors about the sick princess or Corn going to Macarath, not far from there, as the next chapter is Cheve itself. So he didn't march all the way from Hoshido.

If Iago passes Corn's position, he also knows that Elise is sick. Also that Camilla is in the group. So if they lost the battle, Elise and Camilla could either be captured or killed. It's intriguing that Iago would put himself at such a risk if Garon discovered it. Or that he didn't march another army in there to seize Ryoma. Or maybe he did and Ryoma escaped anyway off screen.

But anyway it's not just cartoonish villainy. Blunders like this happens in real life. Even Napoleon marched on Russia in winter. The British trying to make Turkey surrender in WWI was a series of blunders. Germany allowing British soldiers to return to England, etc.

[Lanko]

Where does it say Iago told Ryoma that Corrinmui would be there? I'm just curious.

It's in one of the scenes where Garon and Iago are having a villain conference and Garon talks about wanting to make Corrin suffer and fight things he doesn't want to and Iago says that he has an interesting idea before the scene cuts off. So Iago probably didn't tell him directly, but for intel like that and especially coming from someone of Iago's incompetence, it's doubtful that it would have been relayed to Ryoma in any way that wasn't some level of suspect.

You know, the more I think about this, the more I'm certain that Iago is actually referring to what's gonna happen in Cheve in chapter 13, after Corn's group quell the rebellion and then Iago and Hans march in to execute the rebels while Corn is forced to watch powerlessly.

[Truthblade]

Where does it say Iago told Ryoma that Corrinmui would be there? I'm just curious.

[spoiler=conquest spoilers]If you attack Iago with Corrin in chapter 25, he reveals he did tell the Hoshidans about Corrin being in Maracrath (or however its spelled) among other things (such as the fact he suggested to Garon to have Ryoma killed in the chapter before). You think he made it his personal goal to make Corrin's life miserable (great use of your own life).

Edited April 12, 2016 by Blade_of_Light

[saisymbolic]

Oh. Huh.

I guess he used some magicks mumbo-jumbo and somehow got the information to Ryoma.

[Thane]

I did address in my last post that I feel Corrin should have behaved differently. But how I judge Corrin on their actions is separated from how I’m judging Ryoma. Who I feel was acting immorally and emotionally, and not living up to his title as crown prince.

Corrin and Elise may be a threat, but they are a threat Ryoma had to go out of his way to address and ignore current pressing attacks on his boarder. In order to address a threat that has yet to make a move on Hoshido. And then he doesn’t bother to try to talk or listen to Corrin, he picks a fight. I feel this reflects poorly on him.

You're right, he was acting emotionally, but you have yet to say what's wrong with him acting on his emotions, and you seem to think that there's not a shred of logic left in the man. You don't think that, perhaps, he thought "gee, it sure would be swell to have my brother back after all that has happened, but I can't forget that he's an easily manipulated, idiotic, naïve little powerhouse who can turn into a dragon and went back to a nation that just invaded us" ? You don't think Ryouma is capable of feeling more than two things at the same time, or to plan ahead in the slightest?

Again, Ryouma had the perfect opportunity to take back someone who posed a threat to his nation while at the same time maybe get his little sibling back. If he had decided to kill Elise on the spot in an attempt to break Corrin mentally and convince them to return home that way, then you'd have a point, but that's what Camilla does, not Ryouma; he simply offered Corrin a deal which the latter shot down, forcing Ryouma's hand since he can't let Corrin run around freely. Ryouma not actively helping an enemy participant in the war is exactly what a crown prince should be doing, and this tired topic would've been even more talked to death if he had bent over and let Nohr walk over him.

Yes. I am saying we can’t use future events to claim past actions are justified.

Ryoma did refuse to talk. Corrin asked to talk, said they wanted and were working for peace and Ryoma ignored them and attacked while corrin was still talking.

Corrin is being manipulated, I agree. I’m happy to have a different conversation via pm or another thread on what Corrin should have done, but I’m currently looking at Ryoma and his actions.

If you're saying that Ryouma being right is invalid for arbitrary reasons, then I'm not sure we would have much of a PM conversation to go on. It wouldn't even matter what I had to say, since you could just reply with a "nope".

Please explain how at this point in the story Corrin appears the biggest threat over the currently invading army at the border?

And Ryoma did press the fight. He attacked while Corrin wanted to talk say “I’ll show you with my blade then and take you home!”

Again, an easily manipulated idiot with growing numbers, two out of four royal siblings behind him (and Azura), the power to turn into a dragon, wielder of a legendary blade, etc. Do you mean to tell me Ryouma should've just camped the front lines and then turned a blind eye to Corrin wreaking havoc on Garon's behalf?

Exactly, because he couldn't let Corrin run around on their murderous rampage. Corrin is in the wrong here, not Ryouma.

it is unclear how tribes are viewed in the social hierarchy, but I’ll concede until I’ve checked further that Rinka would have been considered noble. Kaze likely wasn’t because his clan wasn’t exactly discussed as being politically active and were ninjas.

I don’t feel I’m ignoring the facts, but if you feel I am then this discussion is likely pointless from your point of view. I’m attempting to address what I feel was a failing of character by Ryoma, in what I feel has been a poorly articulated argument in the past. Maybe you feel I’m still poorly articulating it. But the fact that every time someone says “I feel Ryoma acted poorly here” the only thing that get throw back at them is “You only care because Elise is cute!” is missing a lot of what the scene was portraying imho.

I can’t claim I wasn’t “picking a fight” since technically I am trying to have a discussion with opposing viewpoints and I did ask for it. But I wasn’t looking for a potshot taking squabble, which some responders have given me. I was and am looking to have points addressed, and am happy to be convinced otherwise on my current standing. I have simply felt that up to this point the arguments calling Ryoma out have been poorly stated and often lacked that parts that I personally believed held most weight (the impractical part of marching across the country to fight an enemy general on intel he receives from a questionable source as opposed to dealing with the more obvious threats at the border)

I don't know enough about Japanese politeness in speech to offer a professional opinion, but what I do know is that Corrin address both Clear and Fuuga with "-sama" at the end, and uses formal speech, which is not something the royals aside from Sakura do in this game often - I believe the only other ones are the Nohrian siblings who talk that way to their father. I might be wrong and it might not mean much, but it's still a position that obviously commands a lot of respect. The tribes are horribly underdeveloped, but Rinkah is not low born, that's for sure.

However, even with that strange argument out of the way, Ryouma would have no reason to trust the Nohrians considering how they messed up his family and, you know, the whole war thing. I still don't believe we've played the same game if you disagree with me here.

People here have been a bit blunt, I agree, but you have to understand that you bring up a tired topic with really odd arguments like real life treaties and Ryouma not having proof that Nohrians treat high born prisoners well. It simply makes no sense, and you refuse to budge. Also, it's really disingenuous to say that people only reply to this subject by citing Elise being cute; I haven't seen many people saying that, and I personally only brought it up because I simply cannot see why else people would feel so strongly about such an open-and-shut case.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I don't like how black and white this game is, but trying to make Hoshido look worse won't make the story more gray in the slightest. Ryouma acted correctly, and I'd say Xander and Corrin didn't in chapter 18 when he could've essentially ended the war with four casualties.

[Thor Odinson]

Wrt Tribes

Rinkah is the only person on Birthright to not address Ryoma in supports with an honorific (contrast with Scarlet's reaction when she found out he's a prince) and he has no issues with it whatsoever. Granted, he doesn't seem to care too much for formalities from the other party's end either, but especially considering honorifics are kind of a big deal in Japan, Rinkah's lack of honorifics in addressing the high prince/basically king of Hoshido likely is also a call on her position as the heir to the fire clan, essentially putting them at similar levels of status bar the importance in the plot they are and the size of their nations. Fuga x Corrin supports also referred to his and Sumeragi's friendship as pretty much equals bar the size of their countries.

I think her localized description specifically refer to her as a princess? I'd have to check again when I get home.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Thor Odinson

[shadowofchaos]

I can confirm that Rinka does not use any sort of honorifics in Japanese, or at least in the main dialogue, according to my memory.

[Kuroi Tsubasa Tenshi]

Again, an easily manipulated idiot with growing numbers, two out of four royal siblings behind him (and Azura), the power to turn into a dragon, wielder of a legendary blade, etc. Do you mean to tell me Ryouma should've just camped the front lines and then turned a blind eye to Corrin wreaking havoc on Garon's behalf?

Exactly, because he couldn't let Corrin run around on their murderous rampage. Corrin is in the wrong here, not Ryouma.

Wait, what murderous rampage? The story makes a point of declaring over and over how there's inexplicably no casualties in all of Corrin's battles. It hammers this point especially hard leading up to Conquest 12 and then somehow it keeps happening (and is especially absurd with Conquest 22 and 23). And if Ryoma was in contact with Hinoka and Takumi at all, he should have heard about this.

[Genevie]

too lazy to read all post (i only read OP), but let me make this quick

I am the candidates of king, my country is being invaded by norhrian scums, finally found my lost brother that kidnapped by garon (ps: garon kill my father too), my step mother is happy because finally she meet her lost son, suddenly someone killed mother because mother protecting corn+my country is crushed, corn take yatogami which is reside in dawn dragon, tell him the truth how nohrian invade hoshido, corn betrayed hoshido+took the yatogami

if i was Ryoma, i will kill Elise, even she is cute, twin-tailed, loli, children, not-legal, because the reason above, i will shoot her like Takumi did

also regarding war policy.... NONONO, this is GAME not REAL LIFE, if you still apply IRL rules to game, what are? 8 years old?

ps: no, i dont hate nohrian except lago, garon, hans, and zola, but really, sees someone who compare IRL rules with game totally irk me, i know conquest story is good, and birthright story is cliche, but please stop using IRL rules, with game, everything can happened on game

Edited April 12, 2016 by Genevie

[Red Lilies]

too lazy to read all post (i only read OP), but let me make this quick

I am the candidates of king, my country is being invaded by norhrian scums, finally found my lost brother that kidnapped by garon (ps: garon kill my father too), my step mother is happy because finally she meet her lost son, suddenly someone killed mother because mother protecting corn+my country is crushed, corn take yatogami which is reside in dawn dragon, tell him the truth how nohrian invade hoshido, corn betrayed hoshido+took the yatogami

if i was Ryoma, i will kill Elise, even she is cute, twin-tailed, loli, children, not-legal, because the reason above, i will shoot her like Takumi did

also regarding war policy.... NONONO, this is GAME not REAL LIFE, if you still apply IRL rules to game, what are? 8 years old?

ps: no, i dont hate nohrian except lago, garon, hans, and zola, but really, sees someone who compare IRL rules with game totally irk me, i know conquest story is good, and birthright story is cliche, but please stop using IRL rules, with game, everything can happened on game

Ok, thanks for the personal attack to start. Heaven forbid I look towards a system of long held, historical rules that set a precedence for humans to have a certain set of either written or unwritten rules of what is considered inhumane and humane in warfare.

I was not, as I stated, saying our real life rules apply in a fictional setting. But we often use fictional setting to explore real life issues such as morals and inhumane or humane actions. So I do believe it is completely fine for me to say that “several centuries of military practice suggest that the universal belief that we should hold certain humanitarian standards in war support the likelihood that there were standards in Nohr and Hoshido as well. And history also shows leaders willing to do anything to win generally find those wins short-lived. We are 150 years (6 generations) into the Geneva conventions, and we humans keep adding to them. So I think they do speak to a very human conviction that might doesn't make right.”

This is me stating that morals do exist in game because the game is an exploration of humans. And yes, as an exploration of humans I do feel I can look at a character had and have a reaction to their behavior and a judgement on whether I think it’s a moral one and consistent with what has previously been presented as a “good” aligned character. This has nothing to do with my age. It has everything to do with me looking at this from a story moment. What are they trying to say about Ryoma? What does his actions make the player feel? Can we consider it inhumane? Is it fair for some players to feel he went to fair? Is it fair for some players to feel it was the right choice? (The answer to both these last two is yes, imo. Which is what my argument was actually about. That it is fair to judge a “good” aligned character on actions that feel immoral.)

You're right, he was acting emotionally, but you have yet to say what's wrong with him acting on his emotions, and you seem to think that there's not a shred of logic left in the man. You don't think that, perhaps, he thought "gee, it sure would be swell to have my brother back after all that has happened, but I can't forget that he's an easily manipulated, idiotic, naïve little powerhouse who can turn into a dragon and went back to a nation that just invaded us" ? You don't think Ryouma is capable of feeling more than two things at the same time, or to plan ahead in the slightest?

Again, Ryouma had the perfect opportunity to take back someone who posed a threat to his nation while at the same time maybe get his little sibling back. If he had decided to kill Elise on the spot in an attempt to break Corrin mentally and convince them to return home that way, then you'd have a point, but that's what Camilla does, not Ryouma; he simply offered Corrin a deal which the latter shot down, forcing Ryouma's hand since he can't let Corrin run around freely. Ryouma not actively helping an enemy participant in the war is exactly what a crown prince should be doing, and this tired topic would've been even more talked to death if he had bent over and let Nohr walk over him.

I find putting your own men in danger for a personal motivation is behaving in an emotional manor that is not ok. As a leader your concerns should be immediate threats and the men under you. Hunting down a potential future threat while ignoring current ones, forcing a fight that was avoidable is doing this and thus I think it was poor decision making. He's actions don't feel logical.

If you're saying that Ryouma being right is invalid for arbitrary reasons, then I'm not sure we would have much of a PM conversation to go on. It wouldn't even matter what I had to say, since you could just reply with a "nope".

I was saying we can’t justify immoral actions in the moment in based on what has yet to happen. But people so far have argued pretty compellingly why Ryoma might not want to be addressing a goodwill or treatment of enemy standards. I will still state that I feel his actions were immoral and it is fair for people to feel his actions were immoral, pragmatic notwithstanding.

Again, an easily manipulated idiot with growing numbers, two out of four royal siblings behind him (and Azura), the power to turn into a dragon, wielder of a legendary blade, etc. Do you mean to tell me Ryouma should've just camped the front lines and then turned a blind eye to Corrin wreaking havoc on Garon's behalf?

Exactly, because he couldn't let Corrin run around on their murderous rampage. Corrin is in the wrong here, not Ryouma.

Considering Corrin has yet to do much of a murderous rampage? So far in the story Corrin has dealt with uprisings (which narratively stated didn’t involve casualties), held out against Takumi until they could retreat, and took one fortress. The last shows some initiative. But Corrin hasn’t done much wreaking havoc yet narratively. And an actively attacking army does feel more pressing than a small band of men who have yet to take much part in the war.

don't know enough about Japanese politeness in speech to offer a professional opinion, but what I do know is that Corrin address both Clear and Fuuga with "-sama" at the end, and uses formal speech, which is not something the royals aside from Sakura do in this game often - I believe the only other ones are the Nohrian siblings who talk that way to their father. I might be wrong and it might not mean much, but it's still a position that obviously commands a lot of respect. The tribes are horribly underdeveloped, but Rinkah is not low born, that's for sure.

However, even with that strange argument out of the way, Ryouma would have no reason to trust the Nohrians considering how they messed up his family and, you know, the whole war thing. I still don't believe we've played the same game if you disagree with me here.

People here have been a bit blunt, I agree, but you have to understand that you bring up a tired topic with really odd arguments like real life treaties and Ryouma not having proof that Nohrians treat high born prisoners well. It simply makes no sense, and you refuse to budge. Also, it's really disingenuous to say that people only reply to this subject by citing Elise being cute; I haven't seen many people saying that, and I personally only brought it up because I simply cannot see why else people would feel so strongly about such an open-and-shut case.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I don't like how black and white this game is, but trying to make Hoshido look worse won't make the story more gray in the slightest. Ryouma acted correctly, and I'd say Xander and Corrin didn't in chapter 18 when he could've essentially ended the war with four casualties.

I feel it isn’t an open and shut case. I seemed to have misstepped with the bring up of the real life treaties because a lot of people seem to be focused on them when I wasn’t trying to use them as “Clearly the game is following this” but more of “several centuries of military practice suggest that the universal belief that we should hold certain humanitarian standards in war support give precedence for people to feel upset by a character who is generally portrayed as “good” to fail to show it.” And history also shows leaders willing to do anything to win generally find those wins short-lived. We are 150 years (6 generations) into the Geneva conventions, and we humans keep adding to them. So I think they do speak to a very human conviction that might doesn't make right. People feel strongly about this because they do feel the actions are immoral.

I have budged. I admitted last post that I hadn’t considered the fact that Rinka would have been considered Royal. I still haven’t budged on the logic of Ryoma being at the castle in the first place because I feel there is still a lack of a good or compelling reason why Ryoma was there, placing his men’s in danger all for a personal vendetta. Since I also haven’t seen much compelling reason as to why Corrin is currently such a threat.

My argument was that people do have a precedent for feeling that Ryoma acted immorally. And that yes, it does reflect on him as a character and it’s fair for people to want to address this. It’s also fair to argue that, as I believe you are, the pragmatic win Ryoma would have gotten out weight the potential immoralities of his actions. But given he had to make several questionable decisions to even be in the place to allowing Elise to die (crossing enemy territory with an army, leaving the front to do so, holding castle with little to know strategic value, forcing a fight to get what he wanted – a personal desire over a tactical one), the sudden pragmatic view he has just regarding Elise also feels forced and like poor writing.

[blah the Prussian]

You missed the part where Elise is clearly an enemy combatant. And, yeah, the Geneva Convention was in the Victorian Era, while this game is on alt world's Middle Ages. No Geneva Convention for you! And it is a fact that there was no concept of war crimes before the Geneva Convention.

[Red Lilies]

You missed the part where Elise is clearly an enemy combatant. And, yeah, the Geneva Convention was in the Victorian Era, while this game is on alt world's Middle Ages. No Geneva Convention for you! And it is a fact that there was no concept of war crimes before the Geneva Convention.

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic here. GC was in the Victorian Era, but there is a long history in the world of rules that people followed during war time.

For example, General George Washington, head of the Continental Army, adopted a series of policies regarding the care and treatment of prisoners of war. Those policies included a prohibition against the denial of quarter -- that is, a prohibition on refusing to take captured enemy soldiers as prisoners.

There are whole books on the history of war and laws about what was considered ok, and many date back past the Middle Ages. GC is only one of the most recent

[BruceLee]

I do think Xander is wrong in many parts of the game. How is it double standards to also think Ryoma acted as a poor leader? I do call Marx out. I’ll happily list all the annoying things all the royals do over the course of the game. The fact I’m arguing that Ryoma made bad decisions here is a fact that is completely separate from this. Or perhaps that is slightly wrong, the fact I am calling Ryoma out is because he’s the one who gets his actions defended. So I wanted to lay out what I believed the argument to be and see what people had to say.

Except you compared Ryoma to Xander and said unlike Ryoma, atleast the game acknowledges Xander's actions as wrong.

That's just so not true.

I felt like pointing that out. All of your other points have already been addressed by others.

[blah the Prussian]

I'm not sure if you're being sarcastic here. GC was in the Victorian Era, but there is a long history in the world of rules that people followed during war time.

For example, General George Washington, head of the Continental Army, adopted a series of policies regarding the care and treatment of prisoners of war. Those policies included a prohibition against the denial of quarter -- that is, a prohibition on refusing to take captured enemy soldiers as prisoners.

There are whole books on the history of war and laws about what was considered ok, and many date back past the Middle Ages. GC is only one of the most recent

The Geneva Convention was the first uniform set of rules that everyone had to follow. Anything else was de facto mercy. You also still haven't addressed the problem of Elise being an enemy combatant. You can argue that it was morally wrong to keep her from medicine all day, but it blatantly was not legally wrong.

[Red Lilies]

The Geneva Convention was the first uniform set of rules that everyone had to follow. Anything else was de facto mercy. You also still haven't addressed the problem of Elise being an enemy combatant. You can argue that it was morally wrong to keep her from medicine all day, but it blatantly was not legally wrong.

I was arguing that it was morally questionable. I used the GC and the long history of people having rules of warfare to say that people, in general, have lines they feel shouldn't be crossed even in times of war. And that it is fair for some people to feel that Ryoma's choice here was morally questionable.

I did address what I feel about Elise being an enemy combatant. I'll reiterate here though. I feel if someone is unable to fight they no longer are an enemy combatant.

Edited April 12, 2016 by Red Lilies